OT: Financial rant

[s/v Faith]

Going back to the original post(s) on this thread, I think the point is just as valid now as it was then.

 We need to live our live deliberately.  Every moment we are making choices that are very likely to
have much farther reaching consequences then we might recognise at the time.

 The world, and it's ways are not going to promote freedom, but rather trap us if we are unaware.

 THe idea of responsibility is larger then even the moral concepts related to it. Responsibility requires that we are engaged in our decision making process and prepaired to accept the real cost and consequences of our actions.

 I see the 'SailFar' ideal as a reflection of this responsibility.  Choosing a small boat with simple systems is a decision that plays out over and over.  The decreased dockage, less complicated systems to repair, less need for outside support systems like insurance.... these are all consequences of a decision.  In electing to not have a watermaker, the small boat Sailor spends more time going ashore and meeting the locals, and less time waiting for an expensive delivery of parts in a distant port.

Responsibility does not just promote freedom, it can equate to freedom.

[s/v Faith]

  How many cruises end because the money runs out?  How many end because life becomes unbearable on a boat that is too large, too small, too complicated, or lacking systems necessary to make life tolerable?  Each of these factors must be considered and balanced.

  Our decision's have a real and lasting consequence on our reality. 

  I appreciate this discussion, I believe that it is helpful to us all.  I appreciate Adam bringing his action and their consequences to the table.

   I see it much like so many sea journeys that have gone poorly.  Some will take the opportunity to learn from the others error, and others will sit behind their keyboards and mock... I have not seen mocking here, for which I am very thankful.  I do believe that there is courage in inviting others to look at, evaluate, and hopefully learn from our decisions once they play out.
Humans are exceedingly bad at forseeing the effects of our decisions.  This fact has been established by scientific research, but largly unecessarily.  How many of us have seen someone make decisions in their lived that they were later surprised by the poor outcome?  How often did we have to resist (or not resist) thetemptation to says "I told you so?"

[nowell]

Adam hit the nail on the head for the most part. I look back to 10 years ago when I got divorced. I was so dumb. I didn't know what bankruptcy was. I tried to be the gentleman and "do the right thig" by assuming our shared debt. In '01 and '02 it got me nothing but homeless, living off other peoples welfare, and struggling just to live. Granted being fresh out of the Marines helped my survival instinct. Now, I look back and im years from where I was. Over 800 credit score, a house, toys, all the trappings of "happiness". Yet I find myself more unhappy now than when I was poor and just getting by.

I think Faith captures this with his posts. The decisions and responsibilities each one of us decide to take, is just for that. About us. This life is yours to live as YOU see fit. Sure, I have moral obligations and responsibilities to attend to, but lately, alot of soul searching is making me ask myself these questions, and im a little shocked at some of my responses. Hence why I posed the questions in the first place. Lately, I have been realizing that when I look over my checkered past, the moments that produce some of the fondest memories, are when I was just staying "alive". Now I find myself asking, myself, whats it all worth? What do these faceless companies care about my morals, or my beliefs, or ideals, or anything. heck, some of the work I do now, I wonder why im even doing it. Its not right, for anyone. Why am I doing it if I wouldn't want to do it to myself?

All in all, it bothers me, to see good people, struggling so hard because they are trapped in the "morality" that "society" has placed on us. While this conversation has been wonderful, it hasn't gotten me any closer to the inner turmoil im dealing with about what life and living is anymore. However, if I find the answer is to walk away from everything, you can be darn sure im taking the full step forward. When we die, we can't take anything with us but our memories.

Sorry for the crazy rambling, hope it makes sense!

[Frank]

Nowell, it's kinda funny but of late the conversation with several friends is about "life". I'm 53 and the majority of good friends around the same. Most, while in their 30's figured it would be way easier and they would have it all 'figured out' by their 50's...only to be dissapointed and often more confused than back then.
Our talks always refer back to 'simpler times' when we seemed to do more...to have more free time and generally enjoyed ourselves far more freqeuntly.
My take is that we enjoy life more when our minds aren't spinning...ei: when you are cutting the lawn...you are enjoying it and taking your time. Your mind isn't already at the next thing you have to do or place you must be at in 20 minutes. Washing your car, cooking...yep even eating take on a whole new form when we are doing 'just that' and not spinning already onto the next thing we just gotta do. Most of us as we age have old, often sick parents to care for. Kids off at school or college. Jobs that seem to take more time than before and all the worries that go along with realizing if we are to break free...we must get our ducks in order.
Judy and I often talk about this and my take is a simplistic one....life comes down to 2 things
      Simplicity      and    Choice
The less we have..the less we have to worry about,maintain,insure etc
We make tons of choices daily...each will effect our life and our 'qaulity of life'
Thats the majic...to define 'qaulity of life'.  For me..at my stage of life, "quality" comes from having more free time, less time at work and being less 'spun'.
I have chose to give up some opportunities and potential higher income in exchange for 'less'. Less is more...more 'me' time and a clearer mind. I'm not perfect at it but I'm much more councious of it than before. When I find myself cutting the grass fast or eating fast etc...I catch myself and  s l o w  down.
I think thats the majic of the 'struggling periods'...we had more time and less distractions. We were more "alive".  Sorry for the ramble.

[CharlieJ]

ROFL !!

Frank-53? Just a kid. Wait'll you hit 69 and are wondering where life went.

Best advice I've ever seen for wanna be cruisers comes from the Pardey's-

Go small, go now

[Captain Smollett]

The less we have..the less we have to worry about,maintain,insure etc

I was talking about this with a friend today.  We were discussing composting heads and waste of fresh water in general - he does not live aboard a boat, but, he is moving his family's home toward a 'simpler' lifestyle.  He's taken to using a pump-up sprayer for showers, and has noticed he gets a VERY COMFORTABLE shower from 2 quarts of solar heated water; he specifically remarked that he has observed no loss of luxury in this approach.  The topic was how all these 'things' are NOT separate systems/gadgets - they build on each other and interact in complicated way.

I used the example of another boat in this marina that has 'running water' aboard.  They fill their 60-ish gallon tank every couple of days.  The wife turns on the faucet to do dishes and just lets it run.  As such, her convenience of pressurized, running water creates a LOT of waste; she might as well just open the hose straight to the river and let it run.  In contrast, our 30 gallon tank lasts us 4-6 weeks, using it for dishes, general clean-ups, water for the cat, coffee/tea and some drinking (though admittedly NOT our primary source of fluid intake).

My point was that we had to work just a little bit harder (hand pump) to get our water, and as such had 'conservation' built into the design and methodology of the 'system.'  Sure, we could have running water and simply exercise 'water discipline;' a lot of people do this successfully.  But with the simpler system, the discipline is built-in.  We CAN'T just let our water run...it doesn't.   ;)

So, my point was how the conveniences build on each other, add together and before you know it, you have an encumbered 'system' that very easily produces a huge amount of waste, including "spiritual waste."

I think thats the majic of the 'struggling periods'...we had more time and less distractions. We were more "alive".  Sorry for the ramble.

There was a period a few years back when I was between jobs and my wife worked part-time for $6.50 an hour.  We were fairly poor in terms of $$, say about $200 per week (mid 90's), and the house we rented for $350 a month had the charm of letting a fair amount of the -20 degree winter inside.  Our washer and dryer were OUTSIDE, and we endured one snow storm without heat since the gas truck could not get to us to fill our tank.  A lady that worked with my wife loaned us a kerosene room heater, which did help some.

I mention this because, oddly enough, we talk about those months, that winter, as some of the fondest memories of our 17 year relationship.

Being "without" brought us closer to the way we live, and, I've got to say, learning about ourselves that we CAN survive "without" is an important lesson to learn.  In contrast, I've met people who have said they could not survive without a tv, a dishwasher, hot showers, a HEATED HOME (in mountain winter), etc, etc...name your convenience.  Of course, they CAN survive without, they just don't KNOW that they can.

Also, when I was in grad school, I lived in abject poverty for most of five years.  I was lucky enough to own my home (a small mobile home I bought with some gift money I had saved), but paid rent for the lot.  I made about $12,000 per year, and the school wisely took large chunks of it right back in the form of tuition, fees, mandatory health insurance, etc, etc.  Bottom line?  I learned to feed myself on $20 (or less) per week; eating "out" was a special treat of two slices of pizza a friend and I made a payday ritual once per month.

Yet I managed to go to some neato places, meet some really cool people (including a couple of Nobel Laureates), date a few really cool women and ultimately have those little (or big) life's experiences that define who I am.  Lack of money did not end my life.

I guess the point of my diatribe here is that living "without" forces you to make a decision about how you are going to cope - just like a broken rig, bad weather, or any of 60,000,000 other things that can define themselves as "problems" in life. 

I once knew a German couple who were working here in the States.  They had gone on a 2 week camping vacation to Great Smokey Mountains Nat'l Park, and it rained all but one or two days on them.  He was griping about it to no end when he returned to work, and being an avid rain-camper, I finally got tired of it (my family has camped more in the rain than not).  In addition, he had been teasing a mutual friend about his 'cheaper' Walmart style gear vs the German name-brand stuff he had carried.

Me:  I rather enjoy camping in the rain
Him: Well, I've always said: there is no bad weather, just bad equipment
Me:  Yep, just like I've always said: there is no bad equipment, just bad attitude.

I'm saddened that so many people in our culture are convinced that "without" is somehow less living, when my own experiences with "without," as Frank says above, are some of the richest of my life's experiences.  Having realized that, we now pursue "without" in some areas of our lives rather actively (ie, no running water) and almost daily talk about ways to increase our "without."

Who's rambling now?   ::)

[CharlieJ]

I had some friends who were long time liveaboards. Same boat now for some 40'years in fact.

There shower is a 5 gallon black barrel just aft of the mast. Has a hand pump to fill it. The shower sump doesn't drain
-IT has a hand pump.'so shower water is hand pumped twice. REALLY makes you conserve !!!

[maxiSwede]

@Capn Smollet & Frank et alles


Very well expressed. Both I and Isabelle have got the same kind of experiences and agree completely.

And at least for myself, I have tried the other 'way' a fair bit too, like a few years in the mid-80ies with a yuppie kinda lifestyle and just a couple of years ago I still owned a huge house + barn (an older farm house without all the acres of land that once came with it) I voluntarily 'sized down' simply because all this 'stuff' isn't really me and it takes way too much energy and effort to maintain.

[Frank]

ROFL !!

Frank-53? Just a kid. Wait'll you hit 69 and are wondering where life went.






CJ...I was driving down main street the other day and saw a guy I went to school with and thought "wow...he's getting old looking"........then I looked in the rear view mirror   :-\

[Manannan]

I'm saddened that so many people in our culture are convinced that "without" is somehow less living, when my own experiences with "without," as Frank says above, are some of the richest of my life's experiences.  Having realized that, we now pursue "without" in some areas of our lives rather actively (ie, no running water) and almost daily talk about ways to increase our "without."

)

I started my adult life wandering with a horse hitched to a wagon and I thought it was already too much, I initally wanted to just ride the horse with my gear, but the friend I travelled with thought it would be easier with more stuff. Well it was not, but anyway I learned early to do without much; and the next adventure was riding horses in Brazil with barely nothing. The transition to life on a boat was a luxury, and I started to gather a little bit more stuff, but a wreck and total loss of the boat taught me a lesson : do not get attached to objects, pictures, books, etc. keep your best memories stored in your head ready to share with anyone who wants to hear. I even learnt not to get too attached to a boat , since I lost the second one in a divorce. Sometimes I even think I should have kept on with a backpack and a good pair of shoes ;)
The more you have, the more you are scared to loose it, so you do not take risks; you just follow the stream like everybody else.  By doing that, you just pass by the best places and turn down the best adventures.

[s/v Faith]

Just read that 1/3rd of all used car loans are now made for 72 months or more!  The same source says the average payment is around $500   :o

If that is to be believed, is it possible that 1/3rd of folks buying used cars are paying $36,000 over 5 years... For a USED car!!!

Insane.

[rorik]

$500?
Pfffffftttttt..... that's nothing...... you should see what they're paying for used houses...   ;D

[Travelnik]

I don't get the whole car debt thing either. I have never had a brand new car, and don't really want one.

My brother bought a new 2004 Pontiac GTO when they first came out. It was his first new car, he had always had used cars before that.

He paid over $500 a month with payments and full coverage insurance, and it was a 36 month lease!  :o
I asked him why he didn't just get a nice, old muscle car for less. (Like a real GTO!)
His reasoning was that everything was covered under warranty, and if he blew the engine or tranny, he wouldn't have to pay to have it replaced.

He paid over $18,000 to not have to worry about replacing the engine? It's not like he doesn't know how, we used to replace engines all the time when we were younger, and we raced a lot.  :D

But at the end of the lease, he paid a down payment of several thousand, plus over $18,000 in payments for something that he didn't even own! Then at the end of the lease, he bought the car, and he's still making payments! He never did have engine or transmission problems either...so much for the warranty! (Now, he doesn't even have the warranty.) He's put around $60,000 into it so far, and doesn't really like it that much anymore, but he's stuck with it since he can't afford to buy another car right now. That $60K could have bought him his dream car with money left over for gas and repairs!

On the other hand, in 2006, I bought a running '67 Cougar for $2,500. I put another $2,000 or so into it in parts, and did all the labor myself. 2 years later, I had a head turning classic that is completely paid for. Now, it's still my daily driver, and it gets admired everywhere I go.  ;D

I think of all the things I could do with that $60,000, like going cruising for a long time, being worry-free financially!

[s/v Faith]

FWIW,

  My current ride is a 97 GMC Safari.  I can sleep comfortably in the back while hauling a dingy and an outboard.  I pretty much boughtitwith change I found in the dryer.

[s/v Faith]

Two cruisers I know...

  Ok, one cruising couple and one "used-to-be-cruiser".

The coupe, are headed to the Dominican Republic right now.  They are headed there because they can live on his (not very large) pension.  Their boat is paid for, comfortable and well maintained.  It is a bit large by sailfar standards, but they mostly use the spare space to provision in bulk where it is cheap and to participate in a couple of side businesses they make extra money with.  They buy things were they are cheap, and do not spend more then they take in.  They have been cruising since 2004, and while they have never left the Carib / East US they consider their life to be full and cherish the experiences they have had.

[s/v Faith]

The other cruiser was aboard for more then 10 years, but now is living ashore and trying to make money.

She was a well compensated corporate executive, she left her position with a significant severance.  She elected to purchase her boat new, and bought it using a mortgage.  She could service the debt and cruise comfortably on the income she had from investing her severance and other investments.

Hers was a popular brand of boat, well regarded and only 2 feet longer then the other couple.  She had learned to do basic maintenance, but preferred to pay others to do it for her.  She liked marinas, and spent the majority of her time in marinas.

When the market dipped, she saw a decrease in her dividends..  But could still service the debt.  She had excellent ground tackle, and a substantial electric windlass but did not care to anchor out.  She made several modifications to the boat over the years, and while the work was done in reputable boat yards the work often had to be revisited multiple times.

The boat had multiple systems, dual refrigeration.. Large freezer, multi zone air conditioning and a large generator.  I believe she had a water maker but I am not sure.

She once told a friend of mine while on a trip to the Exumas that she had not unfurled the jib in over a year.

The same friend spent 2 weeks aboard, waiting for a part for the generator (iirc, could have been the water maker). 

She has the boat up for sale, and has decided that cruising is simply too expensive. 


Now there might be a tendency to read "she" and to read of her background and think she was at some disadvantage due to her background and gender...  I say no.  I have met some VERY competent and capable women Sailors.. And firmly believe that anyone can accomplish basic maintenance tasks with persistence and some instruction.

[CharlieJ]

Now there might be a tendency to read "she" and to read of her background and think she was at some disadvantage due to her background and gender...  I say no.  I have met some VERY competent and capable women Sailors.. And firmly believe that anyone can accomplish basic maintenance tasks with persistence and some instruction.

Definitely agree. I know several extremely capable cruising women, who single hand, and do most, if not all of the work on their boats themselves.

I know three who are Coast guard licensed Captains

It's not gender- it's state of mind.