Lifejackets... inflatable or otherwise.

[s/v Faith]

In the 'so, what did you get your boat?' thread John said;

........ a $50 gift card from WM that's worth $65 if used by 1 Jan 2007.  Sooooo, I'm thinking about using that toward a harness/inflatable pfd.

Connie got the best gift for PD, though.  I cannot top that.   ;D

  Been lookin at a pair of those myself..... Want the ones with the harness, nit sure if the autoinflate is necessary.

  Wonder who has / uses these, and if you are happy with them.  Which model do you use, and does it have the harness built in?

Also.....

  Do you normally wear a life jacket>?>>>>>? 

[Frank]

 I purchased a used 'combo' unit (life jacket/saftey harness) from a local friend 4/5 yrs ago.It is light,easy to wear,has a short and long tether strap (so ya can connect ahead and disconnect behind..always connected) It is an 'auto inflate' unit with a 'blow tube' back up. I love the thing,,but..but..always wonder IF it will inflate when/if I hit the water. It's about 7-8 yrs old now...how long do those little CO cartridges last?? Can ya check them??  They are very easy to wear..so ya do end up wearing them more often.

[Zen]

In the 'so, what did you get your boat?' thread John said;

........ a $50 gift card from WM that's worth $65 if used by 1 Jan 2007.  Sooooo, I'm thinking about using that toward a harness/inflatable pfd.

Connie got the best gift for PD, though.  I cannot top that.   ;D

  Been lookin at a pair of those myself..... Want the ones with the harness, nit sure if the autoinflate is necessary.

  Wonder who has / uses these, and if you are happy with them.  Which model do you use, and does it have the harness built in?

Also.....

  Do you normally wear a life jacket>?>>>>>? 

I had thought about saving the extra money and not getting an auto-inflate then I read about this guy who had a manuel, hit his head when he slipped and passed out just before the hit the water... lucky he was not alone...I spent the money it also has the harness. An once of prevention...

Yes I wear mine whenever the wind picks up more than 12 knots when alone, and things get choppy, all the time when teaching.

[s/v Faith]

What brand do you both have?

Frank,

I read that 5 years is the recommended service interval... can't remember which jacket that was for...  ???

  Might take a look at the manufacters web site.

[Zen]

I have the WM brand. I read that it is good to take them out once evey year or so and just blow them up manually.

[Cmdr Pete]

Most automatic jackets have a pill like an Alka Seltzer tablet that dissolves in water. Over time, the pill can absorb moisture from the air and get crumbly. 

In general, I've found the inflatables become a bit uncomfortable around the neck if you're wearing a T-shirt.

I've been looking at ones with a neoprene collar. They also have a different type of inflating mechanism.

http://www.mustangsurvival.com/products/product.php?id=507

best price I found was here

http://www.boatfix.com/cart2/Scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=11341

[Frank]

Craig...not sure what brand..it's down on the boat waiting....Judy said 'it is a blue one'......................................?

[AdriftAtSea]

The mustangs are pretty comfortable, and I have one on board, but it doesn't have the newer hydrostatic inflator.  The one I personally use is a Spinlock Deckware Pro harness/PFD.  Although it wasn't USCG-approved when I got it it was SOLAS-approved, and it is about the simplest to adjust quickly.  It comes with a whistle, strobe, retroreflective patches and a spray hood.  Unlike some of the others, it is pretty comfortable with just a t-shirt on. 

[Godot]

I have terrible PFD habits.  I rarely wear one, even while working a pitching fordeck singlehanded.  I don't recommend this, of course; and am trying to break the habit.  But it seems the worse the habit, the harder it is to break.  :(  If inflatable vests really are as comfortable as claimed, perhaps they might work as a sort of nautical nicotine patch.

So for Christmas this year I asked for two things: One, a new pair of binoculars (pair?  But I only got one!  :D).  Two, is a new inflatalble PFD with harness.  I listed several on my wish list in order of preference from the one that seems to be the best (Mustang) to the cheapest which I thought would be reasonable (one of the West Marine vests, if I remember correctly).  Haven't received the last gift yet, so don't know if I got one.  If not, though, I will be purchasing one of these before next season.

And then all I need to do is figure out where to mount a few padeyes, and the best way to rig some jacklines. 

New Years Resolution: Sail Safer, Sail Farther, Sail More...(uh)...er.

[Fortis]

If its blue it is likely either Hutchwilco or Sospenders.

We recently added to our stock of inflatable lifejackets and bought Plastimo (italian brand)...I have to say I am most impressed, actually better then my more expensive Burke Offshore.

Oh one point on the inflatables. I wore mine for the last Sea Safety Survival course...And I damned well popped out of it! I have the model with the integral harness, and that stayed in place...but it does not have the top fastener at upper chest height the way that Stormy Seas products do...and during one manuevure with trying to right the liferaft the thing just slipped up over my head and I was suddenly submerged and looking up at the floaty yellow yoke of my life preserver on the surface, it was a little diconcerting! Fortunately it was a matter of a couple of seconds to stroke with my arms and put my self ina  position where I could grab the thing and get my head back through it...but it gives you pause for emergency situations if you have to use the thing for real.

The instructors were more then a little chatty on the subject of the thing not staying on as well.


Alex.

[Oldrig]

The blue ones could also be Stearns.

That's what I've got. Mine has a built-in harness, but is NOT self-inflating. I try to wear it whenever I'm sailing alone, and I always use the unit as my harness.

I also recently acquired a jacket with a built-in auto-inflating vest, which I've worn occasionally on cold days.

The inflatable is a bit uncomfortable around the neck with a T-shirt, and I often don't wear it until the weather gets threatening. I know that's not a good idea, and I keep telling myself that I'll change my ways before it's too late.

FWIW, I once attended a marine industry luncheon and sat in on the "safety at sea" table. I mentioned to "Ridge" White of the Robert White Instrument Company in Boston that I didn't have a self-inflating vest, and he was quite indignant, warning me that I might not be conscious when I fall overboard.

He's probably right, but . . .

--Joe

BTW: Happy New Year to all!

[Godot]

I got the Mustang vest!  Can't wait to try it out.

Uh, I mean, try it on.  Not fall overboard and see how it works.  That would be a little too much.

[AdriftAtSea]

BTW, it isn't a bad idea to actually try jumping in the water and setting off the vest if you've never used an inflatable PFD.  They can be a bit unexpected in the way they work otherwise. 

Also, I'd highly recommend getting at least two refill kits for it...and manually inflating the vest and letting it sit overnight to see if it has any leaks....rather good to know before you actually need it...   you also get a chance to figure out how to repack the silly thing that way. :D

[Fortis]

Yep, always do a manual inflate and leave for about 48 hours to check for leaks, straight out of the box. Also a good idea to actually try out using it, off the peir or at the local pool, you look silly...but it is lifesaving equipment, you NEED to be familiar with it as more then a fashion accessory. Hint: The inflatables do not feel or float like the traditional PFD's or bouyancy vests. Amongst other things you need to practice something called the "survival backstroke" as being the only practical form of swimming when wearing one.


Alex.

[Godot]

Fair 'nough.  A real test is going to have to wait until the warmer weather seasons arrive.  Water is getting a tad too nippy lately.

[Norm]

A couple of thoughts about the PFD/Lifejacket discussions.

A lot of my students and delivery crew wear the inflatable ones with harnesses.  They are OK in fair weather.  In inclement conditons, they sometimes open.  Kind of inconvenient.

Never, ever wear an inflatable under your slicker.  When they pop open your chest may get compressed and result inserious injury.

I have two Type 3 PFDs.  One is a standard vest that I find very comfortable all the time.  It goes under my slicker.  If I go overboard, I would remove the slicker top and be bouyant and mobile.  The other is a Sterns Float Coat which is waterproof enough for most days to substitute for a slicker top.

Nothing trumps... in my opinion... a harness and jackline set up.  My crew hear me often say, "Hook up.  Stay on the boat."  We can do a man overboard recovery but I do not want to ever do one.

Which leads to a short story:  A couple hired me to deliver their 40 foot boat, with them aboard, from Marathon to Bradenton, Florida.  At the end of the trip, we practiced MOB with inflatables and a Lifesling.  (Yes, we saw the irony of practicing at the end of the trip!) 
He dove in head first and practically popped out of the water from the force of inflation before his feet got wet. 
We rigged the Lifesling over the inflated PFD and began to hoist.  Stop!  Too much compression.  Deflate the PFD first, we learned. 
Also, neither the husband or wife could winch the other aboard using standard self-tailing cockpit winches.  We rigged the Lifesling pennant forward to the windlass which did the job quickly.

Lesson learned:  getting out of the water is VERY difficult under the best of circumstances.

Happy New year to all.
Norm
Boston

[Captain Smollett]

Am I the only one who carries (and wears, when the conditions are rough) Type I SOLAS PFD's?  They are big and bulky, but are as near foolproof and reliable as SAFETY GEAR can be.  We talk about KISS on this site all the time, then add (perhaps) needless complexity into one of the last resort safety items on the boat.  Just a thought...

We also carry Type III 'comfy' PFD for more 'everyday use' like going forward (everyone on Wave Functions wears a PFD if not IN the cockpit or below - I leaned this rule from a well seasoned professional sailor with a 100 Ton Master's Ticket, and I figured he outta know).

I agree the first rule is "Stay ON the boat," but the PFD is the last-ditch item for when ALL that gear/planning fails.  For this, I can live with a little feeling like the Michelin Tire Man when the wind is over 15-20 kts.

[Fortis]

With respect, Captain, have you actually done a full excercise while wearing the SOLAS jacket?

Have you tried the 200meter swim, the righting and entering a liferaft unassisted? Tried clambering back up into the boat after 20 minutes in the warmth conserving huddle posture while using the SOLAS?

I have.

I can state for the record and with utter conviction that the SOLAS vest will get you KILLED in a small boat situation where there is not immediate rescue.

The SOLAS vest is great for a cruise ship or navy vessel that is going down. Lots of hands to help you by treating you like a floating lump. It WILL keep you afloat, right way around, no matter what...but it will so resrict you that you can do very little in terms of rescuing yourself while wearing it. And it is exhausting to try doing anything in when in the water because it has its own ideas about what posture you should be in and it tries to force you into it.

For this reason, I would absolutely NOT use one in an application like sailing a small boat short handed or single handed. even if you trigger an epirb, it could be hours before someone gets to you in any way other then an overflight in a fixed wing aircraft. If that aircraft drops a liferaft down to you, you will NOT be able to inflate and use it.

As part of Coast Guard we watched a video of the Navy proceedures for use of shipboard liferafts and SOLAS jackets. The video had four young fit men at the height of their powers jumping into perfectly calm water in ideal conditions and nflating, righting and entering a liferaft wearing SOLAS jackets. They managed it, along with the 50 meter survival backstroke swim) and they were utterly exhausted at the end of it. As in totally wasted. I am nowehere near that fit at the best of times (or that young) and when I tried the SOLAS jacketed version of the standard seas safety survival excercise I had no remote hope. I managed the swim, I managed to flip the raft and then I just wanted to die.

Now the only truly serious MOB recovery I have done has been in cold water, I was back and "helping" within 6 minutes or so...and the fit person in the water was tired, sluggish and making mistakes with where they were putting their hands and trying to grip things and such. I managed to get her on board by brute force and the use of a boat hook (you use what you have...and hey, its the biggest thing I have ever hooked fishing!), if she had bveen wearing a SOLAS jacket I would have had to try cutting it off her, or trying to tie her to the side of the boat while I went and figured out some elaborate scheme for hoisting her while wearing  it.

My advice would be to actually try seriously using the SOLAS vest for what it will need to do before trusting your life to its reputation and notions. It really is not the best tool for the use we put it to.


Alex.

[Captain Smollett]

No, I probably (read definitely) won't be able to climb back into the boat with the Type I on...but to play devil's advocate for a moment, what if the PFD is ALL you have?  What if you are knocked unconcious while being knocked overboard while singlehanding (or alone on watch, which is effectively the same thing).

In this particular circumstance, climbing back aboard is moot.  Staying afloat, AND face UP is paramount.  So, I'm curious about this statement:

I can state for the record and with utter conviction that the SOLAS vest will get you KILLED in a small boat situation where there is not immediate rescue.

when you later said

It WILL keep you afloat, right way around, no matter what.

Good point on the posture it will try to force, versus getting into the HELP.

You certainly have provided food for thought....


(I once read that on the old square riggers, they used to debate the merits of being able to swim, and one counterarguement was that knowing how to swim would increase your death agonies if overboard and abandoned by the vessel...I suppose this could be a similar place for that discussion - if you are overboard and truly alone, do you really want a device to keep you alive to likely die of thirst, hypothermia or shark bite?)

[Fortis]

That wasn't actually my point.

With small boatsm rescue devices are there to help you rescue yourself...or at least help the one or two other people on board you vessel rescue you. If that doesn't happen you are floating merely as an aid to the coroner and statistitian.


so the thing you utterly do not want is rescue gear that actually decreases your chances of being able to climb back on the boat or into the liferaft or swim or go into extended warmth retention posture.

my inflatable PFD1 has (at a guess) about an 85% chance of being able to turn me right way around, and leaves me the ability to make my way through the water and to perform tasks like grabbing ropes and hauling myself arm-over-arm and such.

The SOLAS has a 100% chance of turnign me right way round and keeping me floating...but I only have a 40% chance of doing any of the other stuff to assist myself in rescue.

I'll take the first set of odds everytime...and I do not see it as being fatalistic in the manner of the old square-rig sailors. Quite the opposite in fact, I want to look beyond the writing on the box and try and come up with the likeliest way for me to survive in the circumstances that a small boat sailor is actually likely to be facing.

SOLAS jackets are great in a situation where you have a hundred or more poeple in the water and well-staffed rescue vessels turn up and need to retreive them. The rescue crews know that they just putter up to the next bobbing orange thing and haul it aboard...everyone is going to be floating and waiting just as long as it takes to get there and that's all they are going to be doing. (and maybe blowing on that dinky whistle until they get bored or learn to play tunes on it).

If you are not being followed by a Coast Guard cutter within an hour of you at all times, then the Solas vest is probably not going to be the best tool for the job you are hoping it can perform.

Just incidentally, for a test during the SSS course, we got to do a bit of the excercise as a comparison while wearing PFD2 floatation vests like older waterskiers use. Guess what, if you have to self rescue THAT IS THE PFD TO WEAR. You have all the range of movement to haul yourself onto a boat or into a liferaft, you can choose to swim either breaststroke or survival backstroke and they do not chafe and choke...
They are not as bouyant as the other PFD's, of course, and I don't think I want to recommend them as ideal yacht safety gear, but the excersice was thought provoking.


Alex.