Design Features and Offshore Sailing

[CharlieJ]

Thanks- that puts us right between a Triton and an Alberg 30. Not shabby company at all, particularly for a boat with a 17 foot 9 inch waterline ;D

[oded kishony]

I came across this site while looking at Cape Dory 28's. This fellow is circumnavigating. His website shows many upgrades and modifications he made to the original boat. It struck me as particularly thorough,well thought out and well executed.

http://www.sbastro.com/FeNIX/mainFrameSet.htm

oded kishony

[David_Old_Jersey]

I came across this site while looking at Cape Dory 28's. This fellow is circumnavigating. His website shows many upgrades and modifications he made to the original boat. It struck me as particularly thorough,well thought out and well executed.

http://www.sbastro.com/FeNIX/mainFrameSet.htm

oded kishony

Interesting Website. Cheers.

[BobW]

I thought I'd share some information from the results of last weekend's Farallone Islands Race run by the Singlehanded Sailing Society of San Francisco Bay.

The race is about 56 miles long from just off the Golden Gate Yacht Club (about a mile and a half inside the Gate) out to the Farallone Islands and back.   71 boats signed up, 67 boats started, and 65 finished the race.  20 boats 30' or less in length signed up, 2 of which didn't start the race.  All 18 that started the race finished.

Here's a list comparing the Motion Comfort Ratios and the Capsize Ratios for those "small boats:"

BOAT         LENGTH      MCF      CSR      

Catalina 22 (1)       21'6"      11.86      2.42
Santana 22 (2)      22'              13.08      2.28   
Moore 24 (1)       23'8"      10.26      2.25
Dana (1)          23'11"        32.51        1.72
Folkboat (1)         24' 2"        22.37        1.77
Contessa 26 (1)     24'4"            25.33          1.71
Olson 25 (3)        25'        10.65         2.52
Cal 25 (1)          25'          17.89        2.02
Islander 28 (1)       27'10"          20.93      2.05
Express 27 (3)      (Data not available)
Santa Cruz 27 (1) 28'             12.5      2.15
Yankee 30 (1)       30'           38.47       1.75
Ericson 30+ (1)       30'           22.58       2.02   
Tartan 30 (1)        30'         24.06     1.94
Wilderness 30 (1)   (Data not available)

Total of 20 boats 30' and less in a fleet of 71.  (28% of the fleet)

Browsing the Race Results Archive on the SSS site is interesting.  Small boats with less attractive numbers do sail successfully in ocean races. 

I reserve the right to change my mind about preparing Prelude for ocean racing/sailing at anytime for any reason...  ;D  Seriously, I have given more thought to what I might be able to modify on my boat to improve her seaworthiness for some ocean sailing. 

(sorry about the formatting on those columns - I haven't figured out how to get them to line up)

[AdriftAtSea]

A few years ago, a Nicholson 33 won the Fastnet race in the UK, beating out some very large and impressive boats like the 98' ICAP Maximus. 

It seems that a lot of the modern press and sailing world seems to forget that the typical cruising boat, up to just a few years ago, was less than 40' in length, with many below the 30' mark.

Many of the features that make the new "floating condo" boats so appealing in the boat show are the same points that make them dangerous on the open seas—wide, open, airy salons; beamy hulls; and large, spacious cockpits. 

[maxiSwede]

That´s soooo true, AdriftatSea. In many aspects the way boat design has gone these last 20 years make me sad.

One advantage, of course, is that price levels on the older, more traditionally designed yachts are getting more and more attractive for a poor guy like me.  ;)

[AdriftAtSea]

One other advantage is that the older, smaller cruising boats are generally less of a target for thieves and such for those sailing in more distant waters.

[Captain Smollett]

Hi Bob,

In my opinion (which matters little, and I acknowledge that  :)  ), the "offshore" design criteria are less important for a 56 mile race.  The design shortcomings you see in Prelude center around overall seaworthiness in 'rough' conditions and ultimately being prepared for "the unexpected."

When planning or making an offshore passage, you cannot always predict the weather and conditions you will find.  Weather forecasting is good only a couple of days, with SOME reasonably broad predictions okay out to about 1 week.  When going on an offshore "passage," you have to be prepared for what you cannot predict when you leave.

But a 56 mile "passage"?  You have a pretty good idea what the weather is going to be.  You should know, with as much certainty as can be had with the weather in any case, what to expect.  In short, you should know if the conditions are within your comfort level on that particular boat.

In my opinion, I would have NO hesitation taking Prelude on a 50 mile offshore 'passage' (race or whatever) in the right weather.  That's similar in some ways to a crossing from Florida to the Bahamas, and I'd take my 18 footer on such a trip - with the right weather.

You'll know at the start of the race if the conditions exceed your own level of comfort.  This issue with "offshore" seaworthiness is not crossing some arbitrary line on a chart, it is with handling wind and sea.  If the wind and sea are within what you and the boat can handle, I'd say by all means go for it.

That's my $0.02.

[s/v Faith]

Hi Bob,

In my opinion (which matters little, and I acknowledge that  :)  ), the "offshore" design criteria are less important for a 56 mile race......

  I agree John.  I will say however, the patch of water he is talking about is a little different.

The race is about 56 miles long from just off the Golden Gate Yacht Club (about a mile and a half inside the Gate) out to the Farallone Islands and back.

  Having never sailed there, but having spent years watching boats sail there I can say it is a nasty nasty stretch of water.

  The Farllons are barely visable on the best of days, and it can be very difficult to know what you are up against if not impossible.  The wave heights are phenomenal, and many boats have exceeded the limits of their capabilities there. 

  I really appreciate the break down Bob posted, it says a lot to counter the sailing rag's notion that you can ot leave the shore with anything less then 40' or wll under you.

  Those guys who sail that race are really nuts brave IMHO.

[Captain Smollett]

  I agree John.  I will say however, the patch of water he is talking about is a little different.

  Having never sailed there, but having spent years watching boats sail there I can say it is a nasty nasty stretch of water.

  The Farllons are barely visable on the best of days, and it can be very difficult to know what you are up against if not impossible.  The wave heights are phenomenal, and many boats have exceeded the limits of their capabilities there. 

Fair enough.  My only real point was that I thought he generally would KNOW the conditions by the start of the race.  If not acceptable (to HIM), no harm in backing out at that point.  When Bob first posted about the offshore capabilities (or lack thereof) of his boat, i think we all interpreted that to mean in terms of more "general" offshore use ... that is, beyond that window that conditions can safely be at least guestimated. 

Given his "window" of 56 miles (typically less than one full day), I think the equation of "absolutely not" vs. "okay, maybe" shifts a little bit.  Perhaps not by much.

"My only real point was that he generally would KNOW the conditions by the start of the race. "  Or, are you saying that in that location you CANNOT know the conditions by the start of the race?  If that area (been there once, not sailing) is truly that unpredictable, then of course, I wholeheartedly agree - I'm all for erring on the side of prudence.

If nothing else, this discussion I think helps emphasize (for me least) there are NO absolute statements when it comes to boats, sailing and sailors.  And yes, I am aware of the irony of that statement.   ;)

[maxiSwede]

Interesting. Then what is it that makes the SF Bay that bad?  I think I can recall that fog is common, but apart from that. Is the depth decreasing rapidly and thus making th wave pattern nasty?

yes, I am a curious kind of guy  ;)  I always want to KNOW

[s/v Faith]

"My only real point was that he generally would KNOW the conditions by the start of the race. " 

  Yes, I agree with that... mostly.

There are some really great resources to help identify what is going on there.

http://sfports.wr.usgs.gov/cgi-bin/wind/windbin.cgi?x=135&y=288

  Check this one out. 

I am looking for one of the coolest tidal flow tools I have  ever seen.... (I'll find it).

  It is not that it is unknowable, just that it is VERY hard to perdict.

  The stretch of ocean that race sails through, is the narrow pass (very deep) where nearly all the water flow coming from northern (and central) California flows to the ocean.

  There is a scale model of the Bay in an exhibit near the maritime museum in San Fransisco.  The demonstrations there are truly amazing.

  The stories of boats lost there on seemingly calm days are legion.

  I do not pretend to be an expert on sailing the bay, I lived there summers growing up and I am originally from there.  I think I have sailed there once, as a kid.  I have watched sailboats there for years, and dream of sailing there myself.

  I am sure Zen will have more knowledge then I, but yes, I do believe it is a fairly unique situation.

[maxiSwede]

I can imagine that it can be really bad there, especially in the narrow channel w. a strong westerly.

I did not know that,thought it to be more of an an open bay

[BobW]

John,

I agree that a day-sail of 56 miles is not the same as a long distance passage, but I wasn't trying to suggest it is.  It is true that the weather for the day of that race is pretty well known  by the time the race begins, and each skipper makes the go/no go decision.  Graig is right, though.  The Potato Patch, just outside the Golden Gate can be very nasty and dangerous.  The conditions on the Patch can sometimes be determined by asking the pilot on an inbound vessel.  Some of those guys are sailors themselves and will describe the conditions they observe. 

My original thrust in this thread did concern longer term ocean sailing than a day race.  I would like to participate in what is called the Long Pac Race: 200 miles out the Gate and return.  I asked for input about preparing my current boat, listed what I think are design features needing attention, and concluded I needed to shop for a boat more suitable for ocean sailing. 

Since that conclusion in January, I've done quite a bit of thinking about where I am in life, where Karen and I are going, realizing Karen does not share my sailing ambitions, and reading more about small boat sailing.  I could spend a lump sum purchasing another boat - and have a different boat to upgrade and outfit.  Or, I can keep Prelude, outfit her for what I want to do, and have a decent little boat.  I am leaning toward outfitting Prelude.

I think the reason I posted the info about the small boats in the race was to show that boats with less than ideal MCR and CSR numbers are sailed out on the ocean.  Maybe it was the realization upon seeing those numbers that the numbers are "more like guidelines than rules."  I will research the SSS archives for Long Pac and Transpac results to see what types of small boats have participated in those events over the years.  Yes, I understand that it doesn't really matter what anyone else has done in any size boat - what matters is that I am comfortable with in my boat and myself. 

I'd like to thank the Sail Far community for making me think and helping me see things in a different light.

[maxiSwede]

  I will research the SSS archives for Long Pac and Transpac results to see what types of small boats have participated in those events over the years.  Yes, I understand that it doesn't really matter what anyone else has done in any size boat - what matters is that I am comfortable with in my boat and myself. 

BobW,

IMHO I think that sums it all up. Not just for you, but for all of us.  As an example I decided to change to my current boat a couple of years ago, solely for convenience. My old boat, a Folkboat, is a well proven blue water cruiser, and I trust that boat completely, but simply said, I doubt I could keep my sanity crawling around that cabin for a 3 week passage... still prefer it to a modern 'floating condo' though.  ;)

just my 2 cents

[Fortis]

My understanding is that the farllons are where you will find the greatest consentration of Great White Sharks in the worlds other then a certain spot in Australia. So if you have your boat sink out from under you and are bobbing about in your lifevest..... Your adventure has just begun, Chum.


Alex.
;D

[AdriftAtSea]

I thought a spot off of south africa, where they actual run tour boats out to see the jumping great whites was second.

[maxiSwede]

Yuk!   :'( :P :-\

[Fortis]

I checked thestats again... South coast of Australia form Freemantle to the Ayre Pennisula (This is a HUGE area of water, by the way), then the Farllons,I think it  a samplng based on individuals/hours per day/per sq. Km.

I have seen he pics from Sth Africa, and while they are certainly impressive, it is possible that about 20 sharks have just staked that as their territory and ceased migrating.  I was in a boat off the coast of Freemantle about 6 years ago when a dead whale washed into the bay on the tide. We were about 250meters away and I swear I coud have walked from our boat to the whale on the backs of Great whites milling and maneuvering around to get their chomp.
I was not temotely qualified to come up with a guestimate of how many thee were in the water that day...But if someone had said 1200 I would have had no trouble believing it.... wold have accepted 3000 as atop end number that seemed realistic, based on the assumption they were around the other side of the whale as much as ours...there were a whole heck of a lot of sharks.

We unanimously made the wise desicion that the fishing was going to be a little crappy that day and quietly exited stage left in our wonderfully high-freeboard shark-cat boat. Radioed the hire company to explain what was going on and asked if we ere ellegible for a refund if we brought the boat back straight away, were told no...and so spent the afternoon in a huge freemantle fishing charter boat...moored upa  small esturine creek, fishing for flathead.  It had the quality of being surreal about it.

Alex.

[AdriftAtSea]

High freeboard is a good thing sometimes..but rarely on a sailboat.