Where Do You Draw The Line?

[Cmdr Pete]

I was reading this thread on a power boat site. The guy just bought a brand new 28' Bayliner and wants to know what kind of safety gear he should have.

http://www.boatered.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=94606

In addition to the usual equipment, some people figure the following is essential:

EPIRB
SSB
radar
survival suits
multiple VHF and GPS units
sat phone
life raft with rations and watermaker
and on and on

This is for a boat that probably will never be out of sight of land.

Seems excessive, but how can you argue? If things go Tango Uniform, I'd like to have all that stuff and more.

If somebody decides to buy a particular piece of safety gear, I'm sure they figure you would be foolhardy not to do the same.

Of course, the materials should match the mission.  A 2000 mile trip may require more than a 200 mile trip.

Its easy to say "You can't compromise on safety."

But, alas, you do have to make choices.

Anyway, I agree the guy on the Bayliner should have all that stuff. You know he's gonna run the boat up on the rocks

[s/v Faith]

Opinions are like.......



















  .... elbows.    ;D

 
Everyone has at least one, and most have more then that.

......thread on a power boat site

  That is part of it, but frankly the same thing happens everywhere.

  Make a post, or ask a question and suddenly everyone is an 'expert'.  Rather then commenting on what one knows, or offering suggestions, some folks want to claim some kind of high ground by out doing what any one might question even if it defies common sense.

  Might have something to do with the fact that the 'experts' never leave sight of land...... many don't ever even leave the dock.  :P

[s/v Faith]

Oh, and FWIW,

 

In addition to the usual equipment, some people figure the following is essential:

EPIRB
SSB
radar
survival suits
multiple VHF and GPS units
sat phone
life raft with rations and watermaker
and on and on

  I have a back up gps, and vhf, the rest is not on my 'to do' list.

  I am not saying these things should not be carried if the voyage dictates it..... just that the idea that a new boat owner would buy all this stuff is absurd.

Fear = Gear.

[CharlieJ]

But- but- but- you're not reading your mainstream boating rags. All that stuff is MANDATORY to have aboard. That's why you have to have a 45 or 50 foot boat- to carry it all.

Each of us has to evaluate his own sense of safety requirements, and outfit the boat accordingly. Each of us has his own "pucker Factor" to deal with.


We carry a pair of hand held GPS units aboard Tehani, but that's about all of the things on the list that are there

[David_Old_Jersey]

Seems excessive, but how can you argue? If things go Tango Uniform, I'd like to have all that stuff and more.

That's the rub isn't it - I just know that I would be sitting in the liferaft rubber dinghy asking myself "why didn't I............."  ;D

Still, it will never happen to me............. :)

[AdriftAtSea]

Actually, the survival suits aren't a bad idea if you're sailing cooler waters, but there really isn't all that much that is essential to sailing long distances on simpler, smaller boats.  All the gear in the world doesn't really help with the basic function of sailing the boat. 

Look at Ken Barnes and his 44' boat.  I think he had pretty close to every possible piece of survival gear aboard, and duplicates of much of the electronics and enough batteries to launch to power a small city for a day... but even with all that....where is he now???

Compare that to Donna Lange and her much smaller (28') boat, which, from what I understand, is much more simply equipped...and look where she is now... sailing around the Horn and headed for home on the final leg of a circumnavigation.

[Auspicious]

I think the key is where YOU draw the line. Ultimately we have to make our own choices. I have a life-raft for example, only because it made sense (to me) to have one for a transatlantic. I wouldn't buy one for the Chesapeake and Atlantic Coast sailing I do now, but I carry it since I have it.

On the other hand, I probably would have installed an SSB regardless, in part for weather and nets and in part because I have been a ham since I was a kid and like fiddling with radio bits.

I have a Lifesling III and two heaving lines. Necessary? No. I feel better knowing I have the kit to help in a MOB situation.  I got the III rather than a II because I think it looks better on the rail. Heaving lines are inexpensive and very useful.

There's also something about safety gear that I find appealing. Maybe it's a hobby or something. I'm shopping for an MOB pole now. I really like the MOM-8 kit, but that is really expensive and I can't justify it now. That attitude might change if I spend more time really offshore with crew -- at some point when singlehanding one has to consider just who is going to deploy this stuff to get you back aboard when you are alone.

[oded kishony]

Auspicious wrote:

>There's also something about safety gear that I find appealing. Maybe it's a hobby or something. I'm shopping for an MOB pole now. <

I share this affection for safety equipment. I've also been put off buying a MOB pole due to the expense. I've been mulling over the idea of building my own. Have you considered doing this? Is the reason that safety items are so expensive because of insurance liability? What features does a MOB pole need to have?

Oded Kishony

[oded kishony]

Happened to spot this jsut now.....

http://www.tmca.nu/links.and.features/mobpole.htm


~OK

[AdriftAtSea]

A good MOB pole will have some sort of flag with retro-reflective patches on it... so it is visible at night, a strobe, and a drogue.  The strobe is also for night visibility and the drogue is to help keep it in place near where the MOB went in.  Ideally, it should also have enough floatation that the MOB can use it for support should they not have a PFD of their own.

[Cmdr Pete]

Can you buy safety?


http://www.sailnet.com/forums/seamanship-articles/29098-can-you-buy-safety.html

[Anton]

*RANT ALERT*

Some of that "ultimate safety" fanaticism is really just another face on plain boat snobbery.

A long time ago I was on the Lats&Atts board to let people know a guy at NASA had a whole bunch of surplus high tech parachutes made for research rockets, no cloth in the construction, just a special plastic and carbon fibre, they had carbon fibre spring battens to make them open at high speed, and since he himself is a sailor, he tested them on his boat as a sea anchor and found they worked really well, had underwater pics of the thing in action.  In addition there was this high-tech 30ft bungie cord that came with the whole deal, that was really effective in reducing the abuse of a high sea on your line going to a sea anchor.  (It used to be what hung the rocket from the parachute during it's descent)   At the time he had a garage full of these things and was letting them go for $50 apiece.  So I put the word out on the Lats&Atts board.

I REALLY got raked over the coals.  How DARE I try to mislead people into trusting their lives to "surplus chutes" when everyone knew you had to have a "SystemX" drogue, retail $6k, on board?!

I replied $6k was more than what I spent on my last two boats combined...maybe there were people who couldn't spend $6k on "SystemX", this might give them some protection rather than none?

The response:  Those people shouldn't be out on the water in the first place, and you shouldn't be out there either.  They looked forward to hearing about all of our imminent demise on the ocean...they just hoped we drowned so no one would waste "taxpayer money" on a CG rescue.  Really.

Well, I don't go to L&A anymore, and although I love to rap, I'm more careful about giving opinions, advice, or info in "mixed company", anywhere.  The number of swelled heads I've run into, who take one look at my cheap boat and assume I don't know sh*t, if I had a dollar for each one, I could take you all to dinner.   And that's a fact.

[Captain Smollett]

Some of that "ultimate safety" fanaticism is really just another face on plain boat snobbery.

True.  It may often be pure snobbery and it may sometimes it is just gullibility to follow the sailing rags that write article after article of "must haves," when their goal is to maximize revenues for their advertisers.  As been stated on this board before, I (and others) once believed one could not go cruising without a HUGE amount of money to afford all the junk they say you should have.  What. A. Crock.

How DARE I try to mislead people into trusting their lives to "surplus chutes"

Those people shouldn't be out on the water in the first place, and you shouldn't be out there either. 

Interesting.  I guess they think Lin and Larry Pardey shouldn't be on the water, then.  They use a surplus ordnance chute for their drag device, and highly recommend others save money by doing the same.  I think they paid something like $120 for theirs.

[AdriftAtSea]

Well, one thing I'd say about Lats & Atts... look at the boats that advertise in the magazine... and look at the boats they write about.... most are nowhere near qualifying for small boat status.  I can understand not wanting to "rough it", but some of the people have plasma TVs and electric washer and dryers on-board their boats. 

I think that three magazines I've been reading a bit of, are much more in line with the SB/LD philosophy of Sailfar... SCA (Small Craft Advisor), which covers small sailboats, kayaks, canoes, etc, Good Old Boat, which is a long-time favorite of mine and regularly focuses on classic small sailboats, and Living Aboard magazine.

Most of the ability to sail safely is in your skills, preparation of self and craft and your attitude—not in the external gear that you can buy.  Most of the "emergencies" that occur on the water are avoidable, including facing bad weather, most MOB situations, and fire... and proper seamanship helps you avoid most of it.

That said, there are a few basic minimums in terms of safety gear that I do like to have on-board.

Fire extinguishers, a bit more than required by USCG regs.
PFDs, also a few more than required by USCG regs, including a LifeSling2
Flashlights, strobes, knives and whistles for the sailing harnesses
Tethers for heavy weather
Flares—SOLAS-specification, not USCG specification which is much less rigorous
Radar Reflector
GPS—one handheld and the chartplotter on the boat
VHF Radios—one main, and one battery-powered handheld.
A battery-powered AM/FM/SW radio
In New England waters, I do carry a drysuit if I'm sailing very late or early in the season.

Things I'd probably get if I was doing a long voyage over open water.

A GPS-equipped EPIRB
An SSB-radio

Things that might be nice in the future:

Radar, I think it'd be nice to have when that fog starts rolling in off of Vineyard Sound or in Maine.

[David_Old_Jersey]

Some of that "ultimate safety" fanaticism is really just another face on plain boat snobbery.

True.  It may often be pure snobbery and it may sometimes it is just gullibility to follow the sailing rags that write article after article of "must haves," when their goal is to maximize revenues for their advertisers.  As been stated on this board before, I (and others) once believed one could not go cruising without a HUGE amount of money to afford all the junk they say you should have.  What. A. Crock.

Well, to be fair to folk - if you are new to something and you are fed a certain line repeatedly then it is "normal" for them.

Many bits of boat gear, including "safety" stuff, I do finding myself thinking "that could come in handy".....but then I think to myself "Do I need it" and also "do I want to spend HOW MUCH???!!"

I would say that a good benchmark would be that if a vessels batteries all died, could they still get from A to B safely.........even if they (or me!!) would never choose to be in that position. If the answer is "I would have to call for help", whether mid Atlantic or mid Bay then perhaps they are relying a bit too heavily on the continued good will of the Sea Gods..........not to say of course that many of us have not relied on this at some point or another  ;D

[AllAboutMe]

I had written a long, rabid, rant about expensive, unnecessary safety equipment. But on reflection, I decided, to each his own. Carry whatever it takes to  make you feel safe. Do not put your crew or passengers at risk. Accept responsibility for the safety of your people and your yacht. Use due diligence.
If you're alone, and feel comfortable with a handheld VHF and jacklines, go for it. It's your life, and if you hit a 300 foot long tanker in the fog, it's doubtful that the tanker crew will even notice.
If you find yourself in a life threatening situation, don't expect anyone else to risk life and limb to rescue you. You are there because you chose to be there. And if someone does so, that is also their choice. But, don't go with the expectation that if you get into trouble, it's up to someone else to rescue you.
The Coast Guard did not pressure you to go, and they shouldn't be expected to put their life on the line when you get in over your head, or things just go awry.
Boats sink, sailors drown....always have, always will.
And remember...there are Old Sailors, and there are Bold Sailors, but there are very few Old, Bold Sailors.
Larry Wilson

[Norm]

Hello all:
After pondering this topic for a few weeks now (the winter brain turns slowly!) I reckon the most succcinct summary of the subject was put up by s/v Faith:

fear = gear
(gear excess of required safety gear, obviously)

The significance for me of the topic is that I must teach cruising skills to non-cruisers.  No complaints about that.  Getting the "how much safety" lesson taught and absorbed is pretty important.  It is also something of a struggle!

New in 2007: I am going to start the discussion with "fear=gear."  If one will not undertake a sail because one fears a piece of gear is not up to snuff... a red flag should go up.  If one fears that disaster will befall them due to the lack of training, experience, preparation, whatever... that requires stowing a disaster-survival/recovery device... another red flag goes up.  Imagine voyaging without X?  Could you do it?

If not, perhaps the message is continue training.  Maybe the message is that the piece of gear is really important. 

I cannot imagine a level of training sufficient to justify voyaging without an anchor or harness and jacklines, for example.  Daysaling in Boston Harbor is a different thing altogether with different gear requirements.

I haven't figured out the grog bit yet but grog to Faith for: "fear=gear."  I promise to cite you with each presentation.

Norm
boat show in boston this week.  hope to see some sailfars.

[David_Old_Jersey]

Imagine voyaging without X?  Could you do it?

If not, perhaps the message is continue training.

"Could do" (albeit not "would do" out of choice), is kinda what I was trying to get to in my previous post......badly  ;D

[Cmdr Pete]

Gumby Suits for $100

Now you have no excuse ;)

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/cb/cb.asp?a=330141&pn=1

[Anton]

Wow...good one, Sportsman's Guide.  I've been reading their catalogs for years, but I missed that product...