new boat 'with soul' ??

[Frank]

 as I sat with the couple yesterday on the Shannon, our conversation came around to 'is there a production boat made today less than 30ft that is 'classic',finished well and NOT a javex bottle?'....I honestly can't think of one other than a new BBC @ $300,000. What else is out there today????

[Captain Smollett]

Well, she's not a full-on cruising boat, but I kinda think the SunCats have a bit of soul for a production boat.  Her lines look Herreshoff-esque to me.

[oded kishony]

>'is there a production boat made today less than 30ft that is 'classic',finished well and NOT a javex bottle?'.... <

Check out pacific seacraft 'Dana 24' and PS 31 (ok just a bit over 30ft  :)

http://www.pacificseacraft.com/Sailboats.htm

oded kishony

[CharlieJ]

NorthSea 27

[BobW]

I'd have to sell my soul to purchase any of the boats you guys listed.  And I don't even like some of them!  :o

[Captain Smollett]

I'd have to sell my soul to purchase any of the boats you guys listed.  And I don't even like some of them!  :o

That's why most of own MUCH older boats.   ;)

[s/v Faith]

I was sitting aboard a Benateau 365, at first glance it looked like it had a nice teak and holly sole.

I kept looking, and grew curious.... I finally reached down and taped on the sole.

  It was that plastic laminiate flooring...

Then a profound thought _{(ok, profound to me)} came to me.

  This boat has a plastic soul.

[Cmdr Pete]

Plenty of choices for new boats in the 25-26 foot range. You could get a

MacGregor



Hunter



or Catalina



They all have pretty good headroom, an enclosed head, and wheel steering.

What more do you want?

[Captain Smollett]

They all have pretty good headroom, an enclosed head, and wheel steering.

What more do you want?

Soul??

I think the point was there is more to a boat than creature comforts (or in the case of wheel steering, false comforts).

NONE of the boats you mentioned even come close to the seaworthiness/designs of the older, classic boats.  They are built lighter and are designed to a different set of compromises.

Compare the safety design numbers of any Alberg or Rhodes design to any modern design twice as large.  There was an article in "Ocean Navigator" a few years ago in which the author tried to explain WHY we see certain boats as "beautiful" and others as not so.  His thesis was a sort of nautical darwinism: that in the old days, boats did not last (to be seen by many people) if they were not rugged and seaworthy.  So, over time, seamen developed an eye for seaworthy shapes and lines and again, over time, equated that with beauty.

This passes on to us.  We look at the old (really old) classics, Herreshoff's designs for example, as beautiful boats because they were GOOD BOATS.  And they have lasted, some now over 100 years.  Extend that to Alberg, Rhodes, Alden and others, and you see a pattern - built strong and safe first, comforts as an afterthought to that.  Modern boats are built like throw-aways (to meet economic criteria, not seaworthiness), designed to provide a sense of luxury on mostly protected waters for a short time.

In short, I would not personally consider crossing an ocean in a Mac 26 (no offense, CJ) or a Hunter 26.  I'd do it in a heartbeat in an Ariel.

Soul is a boat you can "bond with;" you can trust her to take care of you, if you take care of her.

My $.02.

[Norm]

Good question.  The problem is "classic."  It implies "extinct."

Last year I did the Wooden Boat Regatta in Maine.  There are some nice looking new boats available on a semi-production basis that don't cost $300k.  The 40 footer I was on had a basic price around that, I was led to believe.  The new Sabre Spirit (38 ft) is about $220k.  It is a retro-design, classic above the waterline, modern below.

The yards in New England are doing good business building a wide variety of custom and semi-production boats in wood and glass.  Wooden Boat Magazine is a resource there.

Not a voyager but nice is the Alerion 28.   A five year old one can be found on yachtworld for $60k.

On a different tack to this thread:  Elizabeth and I went to the Providence, RI Boat Show a few weeks ago.  One of the interesting models was a Catalina 28.  A deep draft version in the water in New England is about $120K.  It is nicely constructed, finished and designed.  E & I did not like the mid-boom sheeting for the mainsheet.  That is a bug-a-boo of ours.  We require end boom sheeting.  That aside, we can visualize ourselves sailing away on the boat after a modest amount of tweeking.

On the drive home a topic of conversation was about rebuilding an older boat.  If you pay top dollar for an Alberg 30 (yachtworld.com for $30k) there would be a lot of renovations possible with the "left over" $90k.  Essentially, the boat would be new.

I think the problem for boat builders is that the economics of new production construction aimed at "sailfar guys and gals" just isn't there.  We aren't a profit center.  Your local boat shop will help find a way to spend your repair money!

Or... we could all agree to buy lottery tickets.  The winner of the millions will promise to get a factory building Alberg 30s and sell them to us for short money.  Did I say that?  ROFL

Soon we'll be sailing....
Norman

[Captain Smollett]

The winner of the millions will promise to get a factory building Alberg 30s and sell them to us for short money.  Did I say that?  ROFL

Norm, you raise a good point on the economics.  As a side note, I found out recently that he A-30 molds are presently owned by a company within about 30 miles of where I live!!  I may try to get over there and see them soon (I've got a lot on my plate over the next two months, so it may be late Spring before I get there).

And it CAN happen.  (Not really a 'classic' design, but) Ludwig's Sanibel/Skipper's Mate/Commodore's Mate has been out of production since 1988.  The molds bounced around here and there for a few years.  Last year, International Marine, builder of the venerable Potter 19, started producing the Sanibels again!  And when they did so, IM asked a LOT of questions of current owners of the design and got a lot of input.  I got respect for a company willing to take risks like that, and I hope they do well selling her.
 
Sail boat building is definitely a market-driven business.  Too bad that the market does not drive it toward seaworthiness and beautiful, graceful lines (for the most part).  Folks want mini-campers (or not-so-mini) that are comfortable at the dock or on the hook; really, there is nothing wrong with that, if that's how they plan to use the boat.

What I have hard time "accepting" though is the apparent LACK of market for the seaworthiness per ft LOA of old.  I can dig some folks want luxury.  I get that some folks want a 20 footer than can sleep six (achieved by a L/B = 2 and 10 ft freeboard).  But what I don't get is that there are not, or don't seem to be, a critical mass of folks asking for boats that will get them "there."  At least the folks asking for such boats under 30 ft.

[CharlieJ]

John- A LOT of that is due to the "yachting press". Ya GOTTA have a 45 foot plus boat or you just can't carry all the required safety and comfort stuff that they demand you have aboard or you just can't cruise. You MUST HAVE - radar, SSb, chartplotting GPS AT the helm, EPIRB, two dinghies, watermakers, etc, etc, etc

The dreamers of today are reading those mags, and swallowing it, because they have nothing else to refer to. That's also the boats they see at the boat shows.

Back when I was very young and reading, and dreaming, we had Rudder Magazine, Motor Boating and Sailing ( when it really did articles on sailing) and "20 Boats you can Build" by Fawcett publications, with designs by Herreshoff, and Rabl, and designers like that. That's the boats we saw and that's what we expected boats to be. We read about Hiscock in his early days, Dumas , Slocum, etc. People who took what they had and went sailing ( or cruising)

Mags like Good Old Boat and Small Craft Advisor are read by the afficinados, NOT the main stream.

So it's really not all that hard to figure why there isn't that "Critical Mass". They just don't know. Nor have the info to learn, except by accident.

Food for thought,  to steal a phrase from a friend of mine.

[Captain Smollett]

The dreamers of today are reading those mags, and swallowing it, because they have nothing else to refer to. That's also the boats they see at the boat shows.

Admittedly, that was me five or six hears ago; had my subscription to SAIL and everything.  The turning point for me personally was a combination of Hiscock's Cruising Under Sail and the Pardey's Cost Concious Cruiser. 

[s/v Faith]

Just for the record.

  While I have some very definite opinions about boats, I will also say that the boat to go cruising on is the boat you own right now.

  I don't imply that a Catalina 22 should attempt a trip across the North Atlantic, but it would be perfectly suited for a sail down the ICW and maybe points south east.  The small open boat sitting on someones trailer can be a portal to adventures on a local river or lake.  I have spent time on Hunta-Bena-Linia's and under the right circumstances they can provide a great time on the water.   

  I hope no one who reads this thread and listens to our discussion here is EVER discouraged from going out and sailing, even sailing far, in WHATEVER they have.  We must all know our limits, and even be willing to stretch them a little bit (like a bunch of Sailors who think they can Sail Far, in small boats).  ;)

[oded kishony]

I bet this one will rise to your standards. 

http://www.samlmorse.com/?a=fc_home

drool.....


Oded

[Captain Smollett]

Craig,

Thanks for reeling me/us in a bit.  You are 100% right on the money (as usual...).

My point was not to blast particular boats, but to question why the market is the way it is.  CJ offered some good insight to answer that question.

I guess my posture in this thread was partly due to a defensiveness from a perceived notion that others take regarding "you cannot do THAT in THAT boat."  I've read some interesting comments about the Ken Barnes and Jim Gray situations that got me a little "up."

In brief, both Barnes and Gray were singlehanding >= 40 ft boats.  Not undo-able by any stretch of the imagination, but in MY perspective, that's a lot of boat to singlehand - big sails, high loads, probably lots of extra gear, etc.  The failure of them to complete their respective journeys had led some to question (a) singlehanding offshore and (b) adventuring in general.

Both boats were no doubt very seaworthy in and of themselves.  But I think, and this is only my subjective opinion, that the success probability for a singlehander would be larger on an smaller boat.  Charlie eluded to why we won't see that discussed in the pop press.  The other thing you absolutely won't hear is ANY question about the design of a "modern" boat when something like this happens.  But....

If Ken were singlehanding on an Ariel, on the other hand, there would be folks crawling out of the woodwork claiming he was on too-small a boat (probably).  I have personal knowledge about such criticisms about a very, very experienced sailor heading back in in the face of some unexpected weather (he was on an older, but very well-found boat, a design that is represented on this site).  Personally, I think his decision showed some seamanship, but in no way takes away from the capabilities of the boat herself.  But that was the criticism that was made - I believe the exact quote was something like "he had no business being out there in the first place."   This comment was made by a fellow-sailor.

So no, I certainly don't want any of my comments to discourage anyone; nor do I want my comments to suggest I have a "snootiness" toward newer boats.  But if safety OFFSHORE is the #1 priority for your use in a boat, I think one must look very, very carefully at what the newer boats have to offer.

Just my opinion...I'll get off the soapbox now.   ;)

[Norm]

Captain:
You ruined my day.  Whatever else was in my mind is now flushed out with the thoughts of building a new A30. 

Maybe you "made" my day!

Where are the molds?

Norman

[Captain Smollett]

Where are the molds?

According to the alberg30.org site, they are at:

    Boyle Boat Works
    P.O. Drawer 50126
    Columbia, SC 29250
    (803) 252-8210

I can be anywhere in Columbia in 45 minutes or less.  I'm going to write to them to see if I can arrange a visit.  If I get a postive response, I'll post a note to that effect and will be happy to forward any questions.

[Norm]

Captain:
Thanks for the info.  I await your report.

Oded:
BCC.  I forgot about the Brits.  Check out the Cornish Crabber.  Years ago I was at the London Boat Show and spent a very pleasant hour with the builder and his wife.  No one was clammering to get aboard their fine craft.  I cannot remember the price.  It didn't seem extravegant in any event.  New boats are expensive.

I see this link in yachtworld: 
http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1579348/0

More later. norm

[AdriftAtSea]

Capn' Smollett-

As the Alberg 30 is one of my favorites, I look forward to hearing an update from you. 

As for the photos of the three boats, the MacGregor, the Hunter and the Catalina... I was thinking that if you painted two or three rows of little white squares along the sides of the MacGregor, it would look a lot like a scale model of a cruise ship...  ;)  I'm also doubting the strength of the cabintop with two long rows of ports cut into it...