In Distress...Or?.... EPIRB use & discussion

[CapnK]

...and actually, modern EBURP's are mandated to use the 406mHz freq, not 121.5. That freq will no longer be monitored by the satellites as of the end of this month.

Lotta info here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPIRB#Phase-out_of_121.5_.26_243_beacons

[Captain Smollett]

Thanks, Joe, for clarifying the SPOT based on your experience with it.

Grog to ya, and continued Fair Winds.

[CapnK]

An exploration of convolution:

Up above, in a prior post, Adam/Godot mentioned needing to be able to inflate a dinghy fast, if/in case it needed to be used as a liferaft...

That made me think of the CO2 bike tire inflators (one example here), and a cheap plastic/PVC raft, like a Seyvlor (sp?). But I don't think that a little CO2 cartridge has enough oomph to fill a whole raft... ;)

And the fill valves on an inflatable dinghy are much bigger than those of a bike tire.

But those thoughts led to this:

What other way is there to carry enough compressed gas to inflate a whole inflatable?

I've seen some guys use ex-welding tanks to power waterguns (neat idea, but wayyy off topic ;D), something like that could be rigged.

But then I realized we all probably have one of those aboard, sort of - our fire extinguisher.

:o

I bet you could stick a fire extinguisher nozzle into an inflatable valve and get most of the needed inflation pretty much right away... lol

If I was rich enough to have a potential throw-away inflatable (because it might be junk after this experiment), I think that would be a neat thing to check out for feasability.

As it is, the idea will have to remain a thought exercise.

But I bet it would work... ;)

Hmm, might be time for more coffee, and finish waking up, before posting more... ;D

[CharlieJ]

The larger CO2 cartridges in inflatable PFDs might work better. Don't know, but they are a good bit larger

[Navyvet]

One word Paintball I think a paintball tank will have enough pressure to fill a raft and if you have a compesser you can fill even the cheap co2 tanks with normal air just can't put co2 back in afterwards. I know alot of players that have carbon wraped tanks with special coustom made this or that with them and you can get a regulator for a PB tank pretty easy along with gauges for pressure and cheaper then a fire extinguisher just another thought.

[Bill NH]

I bet you could stick a fire extinguisher nozzle into an inflatable valve and get most of the needed inflation pretty much right away... lol

If I was rich enough to have a potential throw-away inflatable (because it might be junk after this experiment), I think that would be a neat thing to check out for feasability.

As it is, the idea will have to remain a thought exercise.

But I bet it would work... ;)

I suspect the rapid cooling caused by the expansion of the CO2 out of the extinguisher would freeze the PVC of the inflatable to the point where it would probably crack...  after all, remember how effective CO2 extinguishers are for chilling cold beverages!   ;D

[Auspicious]

I respectfully disagree with Joe about the use of Spot for emergency location. The Globalstar network that Spot depends on is notorious for holes in coverage. The Spot unit may be transmitting a 911 "call" that doesn't get picked up and forwarded.

I have followed a couple of people using Spot for whom tracking dropped out for extended periods (many hours not many days).

When I bought my EPIRB three years ago I got a great price at life-raft.com . I haven't comparison shopped since then so I don't know if they are still the lowest price around.

[s/v Faith]

I have held back in replying to this thread, but I want to add a couple of items for consiceration.

  I had an Avon Offshore life raft, but sold it after I figured out it had no place aboard Faith.  The hard valance was it's undoing, but frankly was not interested in the soft cases either.

  Before you go out and buy one, give a thought to where you are going to stow it.   You may decide that it is better to invest in making your craft more seaworthy (I like CaptK's idea).

Then the EPIRB issue.  We did not carry one (well a current one anyway) aboard Faith.  We had an old 243mhz unit that came with the boat (probably did not work anyway).  Of course we promptly threw it away on the date they became "illegal" like all good law abiding citizens.  ::)

  We have not purchased one, and while I am not going to say I never will I will say that I (like others on this site) have a tough time with the idea that someone else should put themselves in harms way if my poor judgment puts me and my crew there.

  It is a very personal decision, and I do not advocate one side or the other for anyone else.  I do think the decision has merit, and anyone who brings one of these things aboard must consider carefully exactly when and under what circumstances they would use it.

  Just one Sailors opinion.

[AdriftAtSea]

CapnK—

You might want to read up on modern Category 1 & 2 EPIRBs.  From the ACR GlobalFix EPIRB specification sheet:

5 watts ± 2dB (406MHz) / 50 mW ± 3dB (121.5 MHz)

While the primary emergency signal, including position information and the ID of the EPIRB is on 406 MHz, they still do have a SART transponder function that operates on 121.5 MHz. Just because they're phasing out 121.5 MHz EPRIBs, doesn't mean that the new ones don't broadcast on 121.5 MHz. :)

...and actually, modern EBURP's are mandated to use the 406mHz freq, not 121.5. That freq will no longer be monitored by the satellites as of the end of this month.

Lotta info here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPIRB#Phase-out_of_121.5_.26_243_beacons

Also, IIRC, the Spot Messenger doesn't contact GEOS directly per Joe's post, but contacts Spot and Spot relays the information to GEOS, per this article, which says:

The 911 and Help automatic notifications will always override less urgent messages like OK/Check or SPOTcasting. In the case of the 911 and Help buttons, one can be pressed after the other and the messages for both will still go out at the same time. The 911 button will send a message every five minutes until power runs out (the company says this will last for up to seven days) or until the message is canceled; Help sends a message every five minutes for an hour or until canceled.

The 911 button is more serious. When pressed, SPOT Inc. automatically notifies a certified 911 company called the GEOS International Emergency Response Center, which contacts your specified emergency contacts first to see if they know anything about your situation before dispatching a rescue squad using your coordinates.

I've sent an e-mail to SPOT asking for clarification, specifically, if the Spot Messenger device contact GEOS directly via satellite or whether SPOT's ground stations contact GEOS after receiving a 911 message, as their website and literature don't really make it clear which is the actual mechanism for the 911 feature on the Spot Messenger.

It transmits to a signal to the GEOS International Emergency Response Center which contacts the appropriate agencies be they shore based or seaborne and stays in contact until the situation is resolved.

[Godot]

I respectfully disagree with Joe about the use of Spot for emergency location. The Globalstar network that Spot depends on is notorious for holes in coverage. The Spot unit may be transmitting a 911 "call" that doesn't get picked up and forwarded.

I have followed a couple of people using Spot for whom tracking dropped out for extended periods (many hours not many days).

Globalstar is known to have some issues.  findmespot.com addresses them in their FAQ. 

Q: I've heard SPOT uses Globalstar's network and they are having problems, how does this affect SPOT?
A: SPOT does not use Globalstar's 2-way voice technology. We use their simplex constellation which our extensive testing shows 99.6% reliability.

Is 99.6% true and accurate?  I guess I have to take them at their word.  The good news is that a trip like The Scoot should keep us all well within Globalstar's high availability window.  The odds are decent. 

I'm thinking that a more likely problem in transmission is keeping the SPOT in a with an unobstructed view of the horizon for twenty minutes.  If water is washing over the boat (and SPOT) every few minutes is that going to cause trouble?  What about rolling gunwale to gunwale?  Maybe an issue.  Maybe not.  I have no idea if EPIRBs have similar worries.

I had an Avon Offshore life raft, but sold it after I figured out it had no place aboard Faith.  The hard valance was it's undoing, but frankly was not interested in the soft cases either.

  Before you go out and buy one, give a thought to where you are going to stow it.   You may decide that it is better to invest in making your craft more seaworthy (I like CaptK's idea).

Life is a compromise.  And a gamble.  I'm going to carry SPOT, to keep the family apprised.  If I can financially make it happen, I'm probably going to carry some sort of life raft to give the family a little peace of mind.  I'm going to try and get an AIS receiver to give ME a little peace of mind.  I'm going to do the best I can to make Godot more seaworthy in order to better the odds on this throw of the dice.  That is the same reason we chose the time frame we did.  To improve the odds.

re: the EPIRB

We have not purchased one, and while I am not going to say I never will I will say that I (like others on this site) have a tough time with the idea that someone else should put themselves in harms way if my poor judgment puts me and my crew there.

I largely agree, philosophically.  The practical point is, however, no matter what I tell my family, if I end up well overdue they are going to call the Coast Guard.  If the Coast Guard is going to be involved at all, I would like to make it as easy and inexpensive as possible for them to get my soggy butt home.

Life would be a lot simpler if I didn't have folks at home who cared about me.  A lot lonelier, too.

[Auspicious]

Q: I've heard SPOT uses Globalstar's network and they are having problems, how does this affect SPOT?
A: SPOT does not use Globalstar's 2-way voice technology. We use their simplex constellation which our extensive testing shows 99.6% reliability.

Is 99.6% true and accurate?

I would believe a reliability number of 0.996 for spacecraft and payload. The issue is coverage of the incomplete constellation. If there is a gap in ground (sea) coverage due to a sparsely populated constellation that doesn't affect the properly calculated reliability number even though there is a service interruption.

If you look at the real-world data from cruisers and other sailors from the US East Coast, Bahamas, and Caribbean you will find a lot of dissatisfaction with Globalstar. The coverage is simply not there.

SPOT is a reasonable security blanket for family and friends as long as they understand there may be gaps that have nothing to do with safety. It is not a substitute for an EPIRB if that is the functionality you want.

I tend to agree with S/V Faith, but if I do climb up into my life raft I will take my EPIRB with me and hope someone comes to get me. Prior to that I will have been doing everything I can to save myself and my boat, and before leaving shore I'll have done everything I can to minimize the risk through maintenance.

[Joe Pyrat]

Auspicious, with all due respect, I've been operating a SPOT device for six months and it has yet to drop coverage once activated (track mode and OK), so your statement about dropped coverage is not supported to my experience operating the device.  However if you are not comfortable with a SPOT unit, by all means do what you are comfortable with.

Adrift, this is a direct quote from the SPOT website (emphasis added):

How It Works:
Once activated, SPOT will acquire its exact coordinates from the GPS network, and send that location along with a distress message to a GEOS International Emergency Response Center every five minutes until cancelled. The Emergency Response Center notifies the appropriate emergency responders based on your location and personal information – which may include local police, highway patrol, the Coast Guard, our country's embassy or consulate, or other emergency response or search and rescue teams – as well as notifying your emergency contact person(s) about the receipt of a distress signal.

Reference:  http://www.findmespot.com/en/index.php?cid=1111#

However, just to clarify I give them a call. This is how they describe the operation in 911 mode.

Who gets contacted depends on the program you have in place (purchased when you activate your SPOT).  If you get the standard package it contacts an emergency response center in Texas who gets a visual on your position and contacts the appropriate agency or agencies depending on your position (land or sea which could be handy if you are ashore in a country where your cellphone doesn't work)  If you have the rescue insurance, which I do, it contacts GEOS at the same time and they too get a visual on your location.  GEOS controls the release of funds to cover rescue operations up to the limit of the policy ($100K) should the need arise. 

In the case of the basic coverage, this is how most home security systems operate.  For example ADT systems contact an emergency response center who contact the police.  When I inquired  of ADT as to why the police are not contacted directly with our home security system I was advised it was due to the high number of false alarms by home security systems which was resulting in home owners being charged by the police for their response if the alarm turned out to be false.  This explanation may well be why there is a middleman with the non-insured systems.  In reality, it matters not who gets the call as long as emergency services are dispatched in a timely manner.

My point regarding SPOT was that the unit can perform a multitude of services, including rescue.  An EPIRB just occupies space until your boat sinks.  If you boat never sinks, which most boats seem to be able to avoid, it performs no function whatsoever and eventually will require update or replacement, again hopefully performing no function until the next time it needs replacement.  Then there is the battery issue.  Hopefully everyone does the battery maintenance so the unit functions when needed.  The SPOT, on the other hand being used daily should make weak batteries evident during non-emergency operation.  So consider the options and make a selection based on your comfort level.

For those interested in renting an EPIRB, this just came in my BoatUS newsletter.
 
http://www.boatus.com/foundation/epirb/

[Auspicious]

Joe,

I'm glad SPOT is working reliably for you. Cool beans. I also appreciate your rationale description of your perspective.

Skip Gundlach, of the infamous S/V Flying Pig, has many followers. On several occasions folk have gotten all energized when his location stopped updating. Interestingly enough, at this moment (22 Jan 09 1345 EST), SPOT's web site doesn't even acknowledge the existence of Skip's unit.

I have spoken directly with a number of Globalstar users who are very unhappy with coverage. Many have given up on Globalstar, which is after all the underlying infrastructure for SPOT.

I find the whole scenario upsetting. Not to digress unduly, but many years ago when satellite telephone services where first coming on line I pushed very hard from within the USG to contract with Globalstar as the better technical solution. I lost the argument and DoD pumped a great deal of money into Iridium, helping the company through a lot of growing pains. Globalstar lost a number of satellites due to age and didn't have the capital or cash flow to replace them. That is why they have operationally significant gaps in the constellation and coverage therefrom.

Again, I'm glad SPOT is working for you. For life critical functions I just don't think SPOT is adequate. We all have to decide on our own what risks we are willing to accept and at what cost.

sail fast, dave
S/V Auspicious

[Navyvet]

I guess to me if a person is trying to make it easy use the less amount of stuff as possible. Like I use a Multi tool a lot that way I'm not having to carry around a toolbox with me. I think of a Spot at about the same level if my radio stops I can let others know I'm OK with the OK function if my boat has a issue or something just isn't working and I can't rig it, it has the help/what every you program it to say function and then you have the "Oh God I'm going to die function /911." All of these things to me is better then getting just the "oh God I'm going to die" from the epirb. Yes we can all talk this until we die about this network or radio signal both of which can be interupted by different things and conditions. Like any thing it is up to the person personal discretion I'm just and happy if someone has something at all. So tired of seeing cellphones being used for everything driving me nuts. have you seen this one. http://www.verizonwireless.com/b2c/store/controller?item=phoneFirst&action=viewPhoneDetail&selectedPhoneId=4330&changingCompletedOrder=  
Does everything but wax your car. and we all know there will be some guys using this as a gps/coms for there boat too.

The same way a multi tool doesn't always have the screwdiver bit you need is kinda the same way the spot is may not work the best but if you have to get the screw out or send a message I figure sooner or later they will get it I might have to sit in the water longer but heck I need the sun ;D. I have to agree with both of you. They both can save your life and they both have there good and down points. Anyway you look at it if you have them both the better chance you have. I'm not a blue water sailor "yet" but anything is better then nothing. I keep glow sticks in my life jacket too don't think they will help a lot but hey same thought process.

[AdriftAtSea]

Joe-

All that means is that the SPOT Response Center, not the SPOT Messenger unit you have on your boat, contacts GEOS—that becomes a weak link.  The SPOT Messenger has no way to contact GEOS directly, regardless of what the literature or website say, since the SPOT Messenger has no idea of what subscription you paid for, since it is strictly a one-way messaging device.  :)

With an EPIRB, the EPIRB directly contacts the COPSAS/SARSAT network.  There is no human middleman involved.  

I'm not saying that the SPOT messenger isn't a nifty device, but it isn't what I'd want to rely on in an emergency.  Between the fallibility of the people at the SPOT response center, and the well-documented and public problems Globalstar has with its satellite network, it isn't a reliable safety device IMHO.

If you have the rescue insurance, which I do, it contacts GEOS at the same time and they too get a visual on your location.  GEOS controls the release of funds to cover rescue operations up to the limit of the policy ($100K) should the need arise. 

[Joe Pyrat]

Dave,

Just took a look at Skips SPOT page.  His page does indeed appear.  Keep in mind the system only displays a weeks worth of data so if he hasn't used it in a while this is what you'll get.  Mine looked just like this until I activated the track function today.

Also, keep in mind SPOT does not use Globalstar's 2-way voice technology just their simplex constellation so direct comparisons between Globalstar users and SPOT may not be valid.

Navyvet,

Actually one of the things my Spouse likes best about SPOT is that I can send her an "I'm OK" message even when I don't have cellphone service.  I used this several times a day when I was anchored in Still Pond Creek and even in Warton Creek at the marina which had spotty cellphone service.  It just let her know I was still kicking since she knew I had to push the button to send the message.  I'm thinking this will be handy in the Caribbean where my phone doesn't work.

Adrift,

The SPOT Messenger has no way to contact GEOS directly, regardless of what the literature or website say, since the SPOT Messenger has no idea of what subscription you paid for, since it is strictly a one-way messaging device.

Not true mate, it sends a coded transmission which allows them to isolate which SPOT is transmitting based on the ESN number assigned to the device which you register when you activate the SPOT.  It is therefore very easy it isolate a device by account type.

With an EPIRB, the EPIRB directly contacts the COPSAS/SARSAT network.  There is no human middleman involved.

At some point with any device, SPOT or EPIRB, humans are involved so this argument doesn't seem all that valid to me.  SPOT in 911 mode does updates every 5 minutes until deactivated, this information is passed along, so the likelihood that any error would be perpetuated over time would seem even less likely, but human error can always be a factor with any such device.

Related to your concern about Globalstar, see response to Dave above.

For those really concerned about safety in the event you have to abandon your boat, I'd suggest you take a multi-level approach to the problem consisting of something like EPIRB, SPOT, hand held VHF, sat phone, flares/smoke.   The limiting factor is expense, storage space and personal safety comfort space.  I've got a lot of faith in my boat so my personal comfort space with this particular issue is quite high.  I am less confident with my navigational abilities, although I'm working to improve that, so I have four GPS systems aboard, two portables and two fixed one of which is a non-installed backup.  I also have two GPS antennas installed one in operation one backup.  I load course date into both hand helds and the installed fixed unit before setting sail.  Again, it all comes down to the individuals comfort level in various areas.  Frankly one of my pet peeves are people who activate EMS when they get uncomfortable onboard, but that's another discussion altogether.

[Oldrig]

Navyvet,

The earlier version of the G'Zone cellphone got rave reviews from a number of coastal cruisers that I know, as well as Bill Sisson, editor of Soundings.

I've thought seriously about buying one, but I rarely have my cell phone on when I'm sailing. I do carry my phone in a little waterproof plastic case, and I use it to make calls when I'm at the dock or on the mooring if necessary, but yakking on a phone while on the water seems kind of obscene to me. Why sail at all?

That said, I wouldn't think that anybody with any knowledge of seamanship would ever substitute a cell phone for a VHF--and I would think twice about substituting a SPOT for an EPIRB if I were going seriously offshore or crossing an ocean.

SPOT would be pretty cool for notifying friends and family of your whereabouts, though, IMHO.

--Joe

[Auspicious]

Dave,

Just took a look at Skips SPOT page.  His page does indeed appear.  Keep in mind the system only displays a weeks worth of data so if he hasn't used it in a while this is what you'll get.  Mine looked just like this until I activated the track function today.

Joe, I understand how the SPOT display page works. At the time I posted I was getting the default "we don't know what you are talking about" picture of San Jose CA. I use a bookmark, so typos aren't an issue. In fact, I'm getting that again now. Has Skip changed SPOT EINs? I agree that SPOT has its virtues, but it just doesn't seem to meet life-safety kinds of standards. YMMV, and everyone has a right to their own opinion about value.

Also, keep in mind SPOT does not use Globalstar's 2-way voice technology just their simplex constellation so direct comparisons between Globalstar users and SPOT may not be valid.

Coverage is coverage. If the spot (no pun intended) beam from the spacecraft doesn't cover the location where you are with sufficient gain at the time you transmit it won't get to the ground station for any processing regardless of whether it goes to the voice processors and circuit switches or to the location processors.

[Joe Pyrat]

Absolutely everyone has the right to their own opinion.  

Coverage is not necessarily coverage though.  Globalstar Simplex data is a low cost, one-way satellite data service that can be used to monitor and track mobile assets - such as vehicles, trailers, cargo containers, rail cars and marine vessels, using sensors and GPS or other location-based software.  The Simplex service utilizes only the L-band uplink of Globalstar's constellation of 40 Low Earth Orbit (LEO) satellites, which is unaffected by the S-band downlink anomaly that the company reported in February 2007.  So issues associated with Globalstar phones do not necessarily translate to issues with L-band tracking devices like SPOT.

Actually I have discovered an issue with the SPOT device that may render it unsuitable for boaters in emergency situations which has nothing to do with anything discussed here.  I am researching this and will let you know when and if I can verify it with SPOT.

BTW, try Googling "EPIRB Failures" and see what you get.  Doesn't mean you shouldn't have one though, but it might mean having a backup could be handy.

[Auspicious]

The Simplex service utilizes only the L-band uplink of Globalstar's constellation of 40 Low Earth Orbit (LEO) satellites, which is unaffected by the S-band downlink anomaly that the company reported in February 2007.

I must be missing something. How does the data get back down from the spacecraft? Globalstar is just a bent pipe - no onboard processing. SPOT data has to come down on the downlink ...

To my understanding, the biggest issue is an incomplete satellite constellation. Globalstar now has a software tool that forecasts the next satellite pass and how long there will be coverage.

There is a discussion going on the SSCA board as well. http://ssca.org/DiscBoard/viewtopic.php?t=7644