Getting high... Mast steps, and other methods of going aloft.

[AdriftAtSea]

Just be careful with the ATN TopClimber.  There was an issue with the shackle being installed upside down, and unfastening itself IIRC.

[CapnK]

I have a pair of climbing rope ascenders, and a climbers waist harness to use as a bosuns chair. Much like the ATN thing, I believe. It does allow one to climb the mast - at the dock. I tried it once offshore, and sincerely believe that I would have been beaten to death had I gotten more than 3 ft off the deck. :D It is a lot of work to go up, just as much or more to come down, and it is far from quick to use.

What about those mast climbing shoes mentioned earlier? Any specs, links, pics on those?

[Zen]

I think it was me about the shoes. I'll post a picture.
I tried them last week or so, but I could not use them on the new boat the mast is too wide. They did work perfect on the Ariel.

[AdriftAtSea]

Zen-

That's what you get for having bigger boatitis.. :D

I'd like to see a photo of the shoes.  BTW, I don't have an issue with dropping the stick, even afloat.  I just have to knock out the bottom headstay clevis pin, and then down it can go...one hand, one line, one winch.

Dan

[CapnK]

Re: those shoes - they give me an idea -

Why not a mast climbing system similar to bicycle shoes, where there is only a small socket mounted on the mast, and a shoe which is engineered to click in/out of the sockets? Put the clip on the inside of the shoe, at the arch of the foot. This would reduce weight aloft and windage, since the 'steps' would be built into the shoe itself...

Now, whoever decides to take my idea and develop then market it, all I ask for is attribution, and free sets of socket shoe mast climbing systems for my boat(s). :)

[AdriftAtSea]

Not a bad idea...and if the sockets were properly designed, they'd snag halyards, lines and sails a lot less than most of the current mast step designs out now do.  Also, they'd probably be a good deal lighter than the current mast steps.

But instead of designing shoes for them, design something like a crampon, that would hook into them.  That way, they could be used on most shoes, and you wouldn't need a specific set of shoes for every person who might go up the mast, just a couple of pairs of the climbing adapters.

[s/v Faith]

Re: those shoes - they give me an idea -

Why not a mast climbing system similar to bicycle shoes....

  I remember when a friend I used to ride with got his first pair.  It was scary watching him stop at an intersection and fall over...... cause he could not get the hang of 'clicking out'.  Now, this went from concern to just being absurd after a while, as he persisted in wearing the things, and falling over, nearly every ride.  He would go on and on about how much more efficient they were, while bleeding profusely......


  I am seeing some poor soul hanging from the mast, by their shoe......  :o I am thinking I understand why you are willing to let some one else develop and test the prototype...  ;D

[AdriftAtSea]

No one said that CapnK had a death wish... bad enough that he lets wet crewdogz bunk with him.  ;)

[Zen]

The shoes - Masteps




Made /was ? in Santa Rosa, CA

worked really well on my Ariel, it did get hairy at the spreaders though because of the cable and the reach. once past that it was all good.

[AdriftAtSea]

Those are some seriously funny looking shoes... does Lady Zen allow you out in public wearing them??

[Fortis]

those are BRILLIANT!, I can see some areas I would change about them, At the moment they seem like they would put too much of a focused load on the sidewall of the mast at both contact points.

did you climb with one foot always leading and just sliding up one after the other, or did you actually disengage the shoe that was not holding you in place in order to put the next step above it?

I have to say that based on the description I was expecting something rather different. I have seen the special shoe rig that linesmen that go up metal posts use. They are used in combination with a belt that has a loop that goes around the bacl of the pole, and shoes that are linked by a soft squiggy and very hi-traction strip that gets pressed around the fornt of the pole so that their feet end up on either side of it. They then dolphin their spines working the belt loop and the shoes and walk up and down the steel poles.

By the way, the major problem with the idea of the mast-setp cleat shoes is that most everyone alos used the mast steps as hand holds for hauling themselves up. If you are going to go with cleat type shoes you are also going to need some sort of wrist braces that also have cleat locks in them (you would not have them as gloves, poeple could not actually work on what they went up there to do)...this would make the system somewhat less attractive. A variation of the climbers belt and loop that I mentioned above may be an alternative to this.

Personally, I have a wiffe that is almost weightless and mostly willing...and who trusts the bosun's chair I built for her. If I had to go up the mast myself, I would probably rig an 800kg capacity electric cable winch I have to haul me up. It runs 12volt as well as mains and could be secured at the mast foot and then have the hook attached to a halyard (the plan would include needing to use a messenger line to get this started) via a knot, the halyard would then be pulled down in order to send up the cable. the winch would then reel in the cable which would pull me up on the halyard....Actually, if I secured the winch at the samson post in the bow, I would have some extra hoist space to take me all the way to the top of the mast, which sounds like a better option.

Do I want to put 160kg 11meters above the deck...not especially, I would make a superb pendulum.

Alex

[AdriftAtSea]

Alex-

160 kg at the top of the mast would probably have serious adverse effects on the boat's stability. ;)

[Captain Smollett]

Alex-

160 kg at the top of the mast would probably have serious adverse effects on the boat's stability. ;)

Ever seen that movie WIND (starring Mathew Modine and Jennifer Grey)?  It has some great cinematography in general, but notably relevant to this thread is the shot in which a crewmember climbs the mast (during an AC race) to secure the head of the mainsail after the halyard breaks.  The camera angle is from the masthead with the boat doing some wicked rolling.

On another related note, I saw this pic in a Sig on TSBB a few months ago.



Be careful going high; you might not like the view.   ;)

[Zen]

disengage the shoe that was not holding you in place in order to put the next step above it?

Foot over foot

The first time up it was  abit scary, shoe almost came off! :o
after I figured the right way of putting them on it was a piece of cake. Until the spreaders. I think there was a lot of betting going on in the marina whenever I used them  ;D

[AdriftAtSea]

But Zen, we'd never bet against you...honest...well...maybe...if the payout was big enough...;)

[CapnK]

Craig - sounds like your biking buddy needed to adjust his clips a little better.  ;D You have to twist your foot a little to get them to pop out, but you shouldn't be falling over all the time trying to do it. LOL!

Well, Zen, those don't look anything what I envisioned. :) Are the made of cast aluminum? That what it looks like... They also look as if they are circa-Brand-New-Ariels. ;D So by "foot over foot" you mean as if you were climbing a ladder? I agree that they look like they might point-load the mast wall, but an interesting concept and good idea!

As are the rubberized ones which Fortis mentions. I'd like to take a gander at those as well...

[Fortis]

I will try and take some photos the next time I see the linesmen using them in my travels.

Alex.

[Zen]

I noticed on the tales of the Flecka in the Pacific they used mast steps.

Anyone else using these? Are they cost effective? They seem simple and somewhat safer. Easier on singlehanding passages or almost single handing...

[Zen]

Hmmm good points. I have seen the kind that fold, perhaps more costly and less sturdy.  ???

[Captain Smollett]

One thing you don't hear much in discussions that have the phrase "windage aloft" is the (negative) effect of almost ANYTHING in low wind conditions.  As others have mentioned on SailFar, and many have written in books, when cruising, it is vitally important to have good light-air performance from the boat.

In fluid dynamic terms, the biggest enemy to high efficiency extraction of energy from the wind is turbulence.  Turbulence is essentially tying up kinetic energy in vorticies - you use energy causing the air to 'spin' rather than generate lift on the sail.  Turbulence is the enemy of aircraft wing designers and it is the enemy of light-air sailors.  If you want to explore the details, check out the k-e (kappa-epsilon) model of turbulence.

The thing is, when the wind is light, even very, very small things cause a high percentage of energy bleed.  Putting ANYTHING on the mast that does not have to be there is lowering your light-air performance in general.  For example, if the wind is 6 kts, the airflow is effectively destroyed for up to FOUR TIMES the height of any obstacle the air must flow around*; a 2ft jerry can on deck is wiping out the bottom horizontal 8 ft or so of sail area.  Putting steps on the mast produce a similar result.

The mainsail is already at a 'disadvantage.'  A disproportionate amount of the drive upwind is from the first 1-2 FEET of sail; part of the reason the jib/genny provides more than its 'fair share' (in a sail area sense) of drive upwind is because of the mast-induced turbulence killing the air flow on that critical 1-2 feet of main.  Adding steps to the mast, even small ones (which can have a large cumulative effect), only exacerbate the problem.  The main becomes almost 'useless.'

When you add stuff like this, you end up throwing away effective sail area when you need it most.  In my mind, it is no wonder many cruisers, who often clutter up the decks and their masts with gadgets and trinkets and junk, must resort to the iron jib when the air gets light.  And running the engine costs money.

Food for thought on mast steps and clutter in general.

* from Lin and Larry Pardey, The Cost Conscious Cruiser, Chapter 11 - Keeping Her Moving: LIght Air Sailing, p 141.