Composting heads; Airhead, Nature's way.....

[vinegarj]

i've wonder about that, paul.  composting seems like a pretty simple process.  however, i think i'll let you do the trial run with the DIY system.

[macdiver]

I had found this article a while back.  Luckily I was able to find it again.  A DIY compost toilet.  As the author states, this method probable will not be appropriate for live aboards.

http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/05/articles/toilet/index.cfm

[Toucantook]

Since Toucan (28ft) is in the backyard and won't be used for a while, info on operation will be a long time coming, but I installed an airhead about three months ago.  It takes up no more room than the porta potti did.

I checked out the SanMar, too, but it was just too tall to fit.  Nor did it separate the liquids.

[vinegarj]

Macdiver.....a great link and an intriguing alternative to the holding tank.  Thanks for posting it.

[Oldrig]

Macdiver:

There's a fellow who lives year-round aboard a wooden Crocker-built ketch in my little harbor off Buzzards Bay. In summer, he uses his holding tank and avails himself of state-mandated free pumpout services. In winter, when the pumpouts are closed (and the harbor is often iced over), he uses sealed buckets of sawdust.

He's a skilled carpenter, and he fitted a toilet seat to the bucket--and he separates his urine. He might not have read the Duckworks article, but his setup is similar.

For several seasons, he was engaged in a running battle with the local Board of Health. But they seem to be satisfied with this arrangement. (Of course, his parents' house is within easy dinghy distance of his mooring, and he disposes of his urine with them when required.)

--Joe

[nick]

How do I phrase this... But are you not allowed to take a leak off your boat in the USA? Do you need a holding tank for everything?

[CharlieJ]

 ;D

Technically, you can pee directly overboard, legally, in  most places. What you CAN'T legally do is pee into a bucket and dump the bucket overboard!!!

This is technically speaking of course, and may not be true nationwide- some spots have total "no discharge" rules. But I'd think it would be a bit difficult to enforce.

Incidentally, the same technicality pertains to OTHER output also :D although I'd be VERY selective in where I tried that.

[nick]

Thanks Charlie - Just curious, because I'll be up there soon, and I will no doubt be boarded by the USCG, who will ask about why I don't have a holding tank - My heads haven't worked since I've had the boat (and the seacocks are probably seized by now), so best to know exactly where I stand when they start asking questions!!

[Captain Smollett]

My heads haven't worked since I've had the boat (and the seacocks are probably seized by now), so best to know exactly where I stand when they start asking questions!!

Nick,

From the "ounce of prevention" department, even if the seacocks are seized, you might still want to 'lock' them in a way that shows, visibly, that they are not open-able.

It's kinda stupid, really...if YOU put the lock on, YOU can take it off to open the thing.  Just because it's locked when they board/inspect, does NOT mean you are not using overboard discharge.

Typical bureaucratic solution....

[CapnK]

I'll second what Smollett says above, Nick. They can be right bastages about yer poopy touching water after passing through a pipe in your boat.  ::) ???

And this attitude despite the fact that the ChemLawn truck is sitting over there on the bank, spraying Lord knows what liquid onto a lawn that drains right into the water...

[CapnK]

Macdiver - Grog fer the link! "Humanure" pdf downloaded and ready for reading. :D

[s/v Faith]

I checked the measurements the other day.  The WC 'Shapmate' (circa 1964) is ~ 13" high.  It is tough to picture sitting 7" higher.  I know Ebb from the Ariel site has re-worked the sole on Little Gull (A-338) to fit an Airhead in.

  Kurt, do you still have access to that spot?  If it is not too much trouble maybe you can play with the dimensions for me and see what you think?

  I wonder if the seat being ~ 6" proud of the v-berth bunks would be an issue.  ???

  Then there is that darn crank.... neither side seems to give much room for the organ grinder to work.....  :P

[s/v Faith]

A bit more fodder;

  I came across an article about an Airhead installation;

Upgrading my Marine Head to a COMPOSTING TOILET by By Charles E. Kanter Interesting thing abou thtis link, the article is linked to by AIrhead, as well as being cited on the Nature's way web site.

  Some good discussion on the Seven Seas Crusing Association thread; Composting Marine Heads: Nature's Head or Air Head ?

  Found a couple of other discussions on various forums, but more speculating then anyone who actually knows anything....  ::)

  I am inclined to go for the the Nature's way head;

They answered my email promptly;

> Hello,
>
>     I am looking at options for heads for my small cruising sailboat.  I
> have started a thread you may be interested in. SailFar.net is a board
> dedicated to the idea of 'going simple, and going now' in small boats.
>  We have many members who I believe will be interested in your
> product, and I would like to invite you to take a look, and maybe
> consider registering to answer questions.
>
>     Thanks in advance.
>
>   Craig (s/v Faith)
>
Craig, that is a good discussion group. I would be happy to talk to you
when you have time, if you would like to, give me your number and the best
time to call. Just a note, we have several using the unit with far more than two people using the head.

Here are some advantages;

Full size molded in seat for comfort and safety angle cut at the back of the base to sit further back on a hull side All stainless hardware heavy duty
self supporting bottle, no thumb screws Easy front latches and a slip hinge in the rear for easy servicing,No thumb screws Larger volume for liquids and solids Fan is attached to unit and can be change side to side
Agitator can be changed side to side Slip hose connections, no clamps
bushings on the agitator and trap door arm

Units can be shipped same or next day No waiting lower price
Let me know how I can be of more help.
Best Wishes
Larry
251-295-3043

  It seems like the better head, I just need to figure out how to get it to fit....  :P

"The Head" is very compact and space effi cient
measuring 13" wide at the base, 17¾" front
to rear, and is just under 20" tall.

[Oldrig]

Hi gang:

I recently returned from a week's cruise, during which my first mate dealt with getting seasick in the (forward) head compartment by using way too much toilet paper, thereby plugging up the tube from the head (forward) to the holding tank (aft).

Stupidly, I rented an "Kinetic Water Ram" from my local hardware store to blow out the blockage. Then, like an imbecile, I decided to blow the system out a second time, just to be sure. What I actually did was blow off the top of the pump cylinder assembly on my Groco head. Result: New assembly on order ($200).

So, I'm wondering if this winter would be the time to remove this head altogether and replace it with an Air Head or other composting head system.

This topic has been discussed before, but I'm wondering if any SailFar-ers have had personal experience with composting heads.

Here's my reasoning:
1) Creme Brulee is a small boat, and rarely if ever carries more than two persons aboard at a time.
2) The New England sailing season is short.
3) Getting to a pumpout station is sometimes a problem.

But I'm still skeptical about the system. There are some articles floating around the internet, but they're the same ones that showed up several years ago. I'm looking for real experiences by real people.

Thanks as always.

--Joe

P.S. After her seasickness ordeal, Lynne says that she's "definitely had it" with accompanying me on long cruises. She said that after a 200-mile round-trip two years ago, but agreed to take this year's 100-mile cruise to a Cape Dory rendezvous on Narragansett Bay. Now, I fear, she really means it!

[LooseMoose]

We have now had our home brew composting head running for a few months of full time live-aboard and the bottom line is it works.

As for the nitty gritty...

1. Odor is not a problem.

2. We are using popcorn and peat moss as our composting mediums it would appear that a $6 bag of peat moss from Ace Hardware will apparently last us for a couple of years.

3.Our solids container (a five gallon bucket and the Airhead also is 5 gallons as I recall) seems good for two people for two months.

4. Our liquid container (2 1/2 gallon) on the other hand needs to be emptied every couple of days which is a bit of a pain but not really problematic. We have added a second container to make it easier to sync into our schedule. Both bottles have screw tops so if needed taking them to be emptied in a local marina toilet is a no muss no fuss affair. For passages and where legal it is simple to just pour the liquid overboard.

5. the total cost of our home built head was about $120 which breaks down to ...
  A. bucket...$3..
  B. small computer fan 12V $9.
  C. Liquid containers were free as it is how our kitty litter is purchased. Finding the right container was somewhat  problematic as finding a container that fit in the space was more difficut than expected.
  D. We bought the Privy kit from Ecovita (http://ecovita.net/privy.html) for $112. as it seemed simpler than making my own urine/solids separating seat.

Our install is very similar to the "Baja box" plans available here... http://ecovita.net/news/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/PrivyKit-Baja-Box-Directions.pdf

Bob

http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/
http://islandgourmand.blogspot.com/

[Oldrig]

Thanks, Bob.

I never even thought about actually building my own composting head, and I might not have the skill to do so. But your project looks like it is doable.

BTW, how and where did you hook up your ventillation fan?

Also, did you install an agitator handle to stir up the peat-moss mixture, or do you have to open the head and churn it with a kitty-litter scoop or similar object?

Anyway, your experience seems to prove that the Air-Head approach is a sound one.

--Joe

[LooseMoose]

Lot to be said doing it yourself The vent fan is mounted to the back of the box over a half inch through hull that goes to the old vent (another half inch through hull just below the deck) You don't need a big fan just enough to have a slight constant out take.

Building to the plan is simple as you'd simply be using your bulkheads so you are really only looking at three pieces of plywood to create the box.. It also makes fr a much nicer head compartment...

For the stirring system (which I don't really think is really needed) I just adapted a paint stirrer i had laying around. But have not been using it as the popcorn and peat moss combo seems to make for a good static composting situation...Gravity works.

Bob
http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/
http://islandgourmand.blogspot.com/

[s/v Faith]

I am a cheapskate.

  That said, I took the plunge today and bought a Nature's way head for Faith.

  I have spoken with Larry, at Nature's way for a few months now.  I bet I have been his most labor intensive 'pre-purchase' customer to date.   ;)  He has been very patient with me and I would say that based on the 'feel' of our conversations the company has a higher then average level of customer service.



Some of the reasoning behind this is;

1.) Eliminate the liability of the discharge through-hull.  I may use the smaller inlet for something else.  My discharge through-hull will 'seep' in fresh water.  I would like to get away from the current set up.  Interestingly I have never had an issue in Florida (where everyone claims to have trouble) but future travel plans would include some inland waters that may be a bit more picky.

2.)  My diverter valve is broken, and I can not see paying the silly price for a decent replacement.  I hate this peice of gear, since it serves no real purpose onboard other then to be quasi-legal.  I really am looking forward to getting rid of this, and the silly 5 gallon bladder that if I ever filled it with 'product' I would have nightmares about...  :P

3.) My venerable 'shipmate' head (circa, 1964) is in need of maintenance.  I am quite sure I could re-hab it into shape, but would still be stuck with the current set up.

4.) I was able to get a 'factory second' head at a substantial discount.  If I would buy new hose, diverter, and seacock I would have paid more then I am paying for this one.  The 'defects' are that this one has a 'flat' finish (not polished) stainless hinge, and a scratch on the lid.  I had been asking for this for some time, and Larry had 3 of them assembled from parts they would not put on full priced heads.  He said he had one more available as of this afternoon.

5.)  Having monitored those with composting heads I can find no one who has anything bad to say about them.  As a matter of fact, there is a company making a high end cruising boat (A Hess drawn cutter) that is installing them as original equipment.

6.) While I like DIY better for most things, I felt the supporting documentation that came with a production unit would be preferable to trying to explain to a boarding party in the middle of the night why my bucket and hose contraption was legal.

Look for future updates as I receive and install this head.

Here is a little more from Nature's Way's brochure (PDF)

1. No holding tank, no pumpouts, no odors, no clogging, no kidding.

2. "The Head" has a unique molded design (with a gray granite color) and incorporates stainless steel components and hardware into a high quality product.

3. This composting toilet is self-contained and waterless.

4. Uses 1½-2 gallons of peat moss in the base for your composting matter.

5. Because of the waterless urine separating design, this unit has extraordinary holding capacity. This could translate into a month usage by a cruising or traveling couple, or perhaps an entire boating or camping season of weekends.

6. "The Head" is very compact and space efficient measuring 13" wide at the base, 17¾" front to rear, and is just under 20" tall.

— Plus! Easy installation in most applications, simply mount brackets to fl oor, vent unit to outside, and hook to 12V power source! (Several options available.)

  From the Owner's manal (also PDF)

NATURE'S HEAD OWNER'S GUIDE
Congratulations on your acquisition of a Nature's Head!

Although the concept of a composting head (toilet) is not a new one, the
unit which you have purchased is the freshest of the new generation of this kind of product.

Nature's Head designers, both sailors with many years of boating experience, and their wives—one a research biologist and one an RN, have used earlier versions of composting toilets on their boats. The concept has been refined and reworked to provide you with a more user friendly product which is aesthetically pleasing, more space-efficient, and a more
affordable alternative to previously offered models.

Your new Nature's Head will provide you with years of worry-free sanitation solutions without the inconvenience of holding tanks, frequent pump-outs, or smelly portable potties.

[Zen]

Excellent. I was looking at a flyer the other day, thinking  this is the way to go!. Now I can get a first hand opinion!

[Amgine]

I've considered this, but when I look at the pictures the unit seems dramatically higher than the currently installed traditional head. I'm considering a lavac with a post-holding-tank pumpout option (currently there is *no* overboard option, which turned into a surprising fiasco during the latest trip.)

I look forward to your reports of living with your composting head.