Working on the pointy end

[mrbill]

My 25 footer has a short bowsprit with a bow pulpit. There is just a single rail around the pulpit about 25" off the deck. I have a cutter rig, and in moderate winds fly the "yankee" working jib and the staysail. When the winds are lighter I have a 150% genny, and lighter yet a 150% drifter.

My problem is that as the wind pipes up and I want to take off the genny and go to the working jib, the wind and waves may be too boisterous to work comfortably (with a feeling of safety) on the bow sprit to unhank the genny and get it into a sailbag (it is big and heavy) and then get the jib hanked on.

Does anyone have any tips on what I can do to feel more secure when working out on the pointy end when conditions pipe up? Would it help to weld an extra railing midway up? How about netting around and under the pulpit? I do wear a harness to jacklines, but would prefer not to find out if it works.

[AdriftAtSea]

Mr. Bill-

It would be easier to make some sensible and feasible suggestions if you posted photos of the boat in question and/or mentioned what kind of boat it is.  Nets are a possible solution, as is an extended/modified pulpit, but without an idea of what you've got and how it actually is laid out... it is hard to really make any solid suggestions.

[Lynx]

A jib downhaul and a wide plank with some wide holes. A large bow sprit around it. A good anchor roller(s) and bail. Someplace to tie off good.

[Oldrig]

Look at pictures of the Maine windjammer fleet, and you'll notice that most have rigged netting under the bowsprit. Supposedly, you can step on the netting and hold onto the sprit itself, saving yourself from the fate of so many old-timers, who justifiably called the bowsprit the "widow-maker."

--Joe

[Fortis]

Definately a downhaul!

Pretty effectively locks the sail down to the deck when used properly. I have seen someone who managed the much reduced wind behind a headland, and the strong wind on the race leg outside its shadow by running up the big no1. and then downhauling it, using the little ties that he had sewn into the lower edge to just bind it as a roll, and then, leaving the sail hanked on he used a riser cable to hank on and hoist his yankee no3, with the big no1 still layed on deck. Having some bungee cords tied permanently onto your pullpit and some lifelines back from the bow to aid the quick, almost one handed securing of the sail is my version. Both sides, as you do not know which tack you will be on. when you have two sails strapped along the forward lifelines and are trying to work out what to do wiuth a third, you have probably gone too far.

Anyway, He did the outside leg and then came back into the shadow, doused and unhanked the much smaller no3 (in the calm conditions, relatively speaking) , re-attached the (shackle ended) sheets to the no1, pulled the three little loops clear and hoisted it. very smooth, very safe and easy.

Interestingly enough, this was the only race I have ever met that did not have a downwind leg.  The wind basically provided two upwind legs and a broad reach, as the wind inside the headland shadow was running at about 90degrees to the wind "outside" due to being funnelled through a pass in the hills and such.

The catabatic wave action was also kind of interesting, with some boats just about leapfrogging the finish-line boat as the wavesets were coming together and mushrooming just off the line by the time the front-runners were coming home.

Alex.

[AdriftAtSea]

Hmm.. I was assuming he already had a downhaul rigged to the genoa halyard, but if not, that is an easily remedied situation. 

Obviously, some lifeline netting will help keep the headsails aboard, but you'd probably need something a bit more substantial to keep you aboard.  :D  A friend of mine used nylon deepsea fishing net, rather than regular netting for the lifeline netting on their boat.  The stuff is ridiculously strong, and would probably keep you and the headsails aboard.  Not as soft and forgiving as the regular lifeline netting IIRC though.

[Zen]

they worked for me just now!

[Fortis]

Downside of commercial nylon sihing net is that it is not all that UV stable...Upside is that it is ridiculously strong and very very cheap (compared to the stuff sold in yacht shops). You will however some day encounter some idiot inspector or Law enforcement type who will want to know where you fishing permit is to have those nets or some such idiocy.

[AdriftAtSea]

If the stuff is lashed to the lifelines and toe rail, it is really unlikely that they'll be successful at arguing that it is a piece of fishing equipment, but that wouldn't stop most idiot bureaucrats.

[Leroy - Gulf 29]

They would probably say you were intentionally dipping the bow under the water to net fish  :D -- On the lighter side, I'd opt for the downhaul as well.

[mrbill]

I tried the downhaul, but found that the jib hanks bound when the sail started to bunch up and the sail would not come down if pulled  down with the down haul (ie: pulled down from the top so to speak).

[Captain Smollett]

I tried the downhaul, but found that the jib hanks bound when the sail started to bunch up and the sail would not come down if pulled  down with the down haul (ie: pulled down from the top so to speak).

How did you lead your downhaul?

The one I've used successfully was led through the tack fitting, and through about every third hank to the head of the sail.  It works great.

[wildman]

Have you tried this version (works on my 20-footer)?

http://www.widgetsailor.com/myboat/downhaul/index.html

I only use it in anticipation of a storm, but it works as advertised.  From the cockpit, collapse the jib against the forestay with a single line (great for docking downwind). 

Then,  release the jib halyard and complete the downhaul from the cockpit, which secures the jib into a bundle on the bow without having to go to the "pointy end".   

Paul

[Captain Smollett]

Of course, as we've said before, by setting up to not go to the bow routinely, you are in a sense creating a safety hazard for when you NEED to.  Something may come up at any time that requires your attention at the bow, and if you are not in the habit of going forward, you don't "know how."

The point is that by going f'rd routinely, you learn handholds and ways to move your body on YOUR BOAT - muscle memory.  So, if you need to go f'rd in an emergency, your body knows how.

Going forward is not something to be avoided - but that's my opinion.

That said, I do use a jib downhaul (as mentioned), at least aboard my 18 footer (very narrow sidedecks and not much bow to go forward to!).

[AdriftAtSea]

I think it really depends on the boat and its layout whether making a trip forward should be avoided or not. 

On Cap'n Smollett's 18' boat, it probably doesn't make much sense, since the boat's deck would tend to make it pretty hazardous... and the boat is small enough that a jib-downhaul should be manageable, even if the jib is uncooperative.   

On his Alberg 30, it probably makes more sense to go forward, and set the boat up for making a trip forward as safe as possible... good handholds, jacklines, etc. 

On my boat, going forward really isn't much of a problem, even in heavy seas, since I can walk forward on the amas, which are relatively protected, since they have a foot-high bulwark along the outboard end.  Also, there are a lot of handholds forward, due to the A-frames used in the mast-raising system.   I'm planning on putting netting around the bow pulpit to make that a bit more secure, since that is the least protected area on the boat IMHO.  However, I do have port and starboard jacklines running from the aft end of the bow pulpit to the stern cleats.

[Captain Smollett]

On Cap'n Smollett's 18' boat, it probably doesn't make much sense, since the boat's deck would tend to make it pretty hazardous... and the boat is small enough that a jib-downhaul should be manageable, even if the jib is uncooperative.   

Since I sorta mispoke earlier, let me clarify something.  The ONLY reason I prefer to not go f'rd to hand the jib is because my little boat does not tend to herself very well.  She has a short keel with a centerboard, so the boat does not track very long (1-2 seconds if there is any wind or chop) without active helmsmanship or some self-steering arrangment.

I HAVE lashed the tiller and steered with sails - but this won't work while handing the jib, of course.

So, I use the jib downhaul so I can keep sailing, not to avoid going to the foredeck out of any sense of hazard.  True, the boat has virtually no sidedecks and a small foredeck, but I've never felt insecure getting up there or while being up there.  Before our children were born (now she is usually busy with them), my wife used to love to ride on the bow while close-hauled into force 4 - 5 breezes.  The foredeck is not that bad a place to be..   ;)

[mrbill]

I tried the downhaul, but found that the jib hanks bound when the sail started to bunch up and the sail would not come down if pulled  down with the down haul (ie: pulled down from the top so to speak).

How did you lead your downhaul?

The one I've used successfully was led through the tack fitting, and through about every third hank to the head of the sail.  It works great.

This weekend I revisited the jib downhaul idea. I couldn't run the downhaul line through the jib hanks as they are too small to accommodate a downhaul and the forestay. I should be able to remedy that by putting on bigger hanks...maybe every third hank could be a big one. None the less, it seemed to work better for me this time...I just have to be a little more forcefull to overcome the hanks that bind

I will try the lazy jack idea too.

[BobW]

The downhaul line doesn't need to go through the jib hanks.  Secure the downhaul to the jib halyard shackle, and then pass the downhaul between the luff and the forestay, skipping every other hank or so.

Sorry, that's not as clear a description as it might be...  Hope this helps.

[AdriftAtSea]

Mr. Bill-

There's no reason you couldn't make up a sailbag that either uses twist-locks or zippers around the downed genoa, and allows you to bag it while it is still hanked on.  The bag could have straps that let you tie the bag to the bow pulpit.  We used this on my friend's boat for many years.  Most of her sails were cut with a slightly high foot, using a tack pendant, to allow them to clear a bagged and still hanked on genoa lashed to the pulpit railings.

Netting, like commercial fishing netting as previously mentioned in this thread, or the weaker and more expensive lifeline netting, would help keep the sail from going overboard and help keep it organized and contained when you lower it.  Another rail, mid-way down the exisiting pulpit would make the pulpit a lot stiffer and safer IMHO as well.  It would also give you some additional points to lash a bagged sail to.

My 25 footer has a short bowsprit with a bow pulpit. There is just a single rail around the pulpit about 25" off the deck. I have a cutter rig, and in moderate winds fly the "yankee" working jib and the staysail. When the winds are lighter I have a 150% genny, and lighter yet a 150% drifter.

My problem is that as the wind pipes up and I want to take off the genny and go to the working jib, the wind and waves may be too boisterous to work comfortably (with a feeling of safety) on the bow sprit to unhank the genny and get it into a sailbag (it is big and heavy) and then get the jib hanked on.

Does anyone have any tips on what I can do to feel more secure when working out on the pointy end when conditions pipe up? Would it help to weld an extra railing midway up? How about netting around and under the pulpit? I do wear a harness to jacklines, but would prefer not to find out if it works.

[Frank]

These 'jib bags' Dan speaks of work great. Easy to use,neat and great for lazy people (me) Check the 'pointy end' on my signature pic  ;)   Just put a pic in gallery 'jubilee Bahamas' that shows it better