Kiss principle PT II --what do you think is NOT necessary.........

[Lynx]

Having considered this question carefully, I have decided to limit myself to only three nubile, bikinni-clad, swimwear models on the foredeck...provided at least two of them are redheads.

I am not sure that this is correct. Please send me 3 for research.

[ronc98]

I must have missed that part of the manual.  I was sailing simply to get away from the women that nag me.  Are you tell me there are different kinds out there that do not nag?

;D

[Manannan]

I must have missed that part of the manual.  I was sailing simply to get away from the women that nag me.  Are you tell me there are different kinds out there that do not nag?

;D

Yes there is, but beware they may argue... or debate (depend on which side of the pond you are)  :D

[newt]

I'm a late comer to this thread, but it is interesting... I wish I had joined this group earilier- I gave away a lifesling when I was parting out a Cat -27. You could of had it for free and see if it was useful Capt S.
I am going to open a can of worms- What if once we decided was is essential for cruising that we established a triple redundancy for it on our boats? Take fresh water for example-
First line- foot pumped out of boat tank.
2nd line-second tank that can be hand pumped (involves buying a hand pump and extra)
3rd line- Water jugs that are clorinated and sealed for emergency use.
Too much? Perhaps, but I am seriously thinking along these lines for propulsion, navigation and basic necessities of life before I sail over the horizon. In order not to hijack this thread, I will start a new one with an identical post....

[Lynx]

A lot of that depends on destination and length of time to get there.

[Marc]

I am definately with the Captain on this one and you may also add to much stuff and something is gonna get broke, and could make life heck for one at sea

[CharlieJ]

 ;D

I missed most of this thread also- since I was out on a VERY KISS boat doing a 5 day cruise. We had no lights other than stick on running lights ( didn't need them), no cabin, no refrigerated foods at all, only water in jugs.

ALL of our food for this trip was carried in a pair of the clear kitty litter buckets with snap closed lids.

EVERYTHING else was stowed in dry bags because at times it was a WET ride.

We did carry a hand held GPS for speed and distance calcs- no need for position when inshore the Texas coast, and a hand held VHF. Otherwise it was an open boat.

And a real blast. We had a BALL. The only trouble was it was over too soon.

And by the way, my nubile lady was bikini clad early each day, but after about 10 AM only a fool would continue to wear only that  ;D But she was seldom on the fore deck- about half the time she was on the tiller

[CharlieJ]

Here was our food lockers. The ice chest was loaded with frozen water jugs at the beginning, plus ONE beer per night

[Tim]

And by the way, my nubile lady was bikini clad early each day, but after about 10 AM only a fool would continue to wear only that  ;D But she was seldom on the fore deck- about half the time she was on the tiller

Once Again,  ::)  What no Pics ;D

Huh Oh I can hear Laura running in now.....(covering my ears) :)

[newt]

You guys steered for the entire 5 days? Without a place to get out of the sun? I think you get the polonesian award! Throw that GPS over the side! No need for that here! :D

[Auspicious]

Just for the record I have lots of stuff on my boat that is definitely NOT KISS, but I am prepared to do without until I can fix it. I am currently sitting in my bathrobe after the shower that followed an extended period in my engine room (yes it is a room albeit small) replacing the v-belt on my generator. Fortunately it ate itself on the last day of my latest cruise. <grin>

Some thoughts based on one ocean crossing and lots of long-distance coastal cruising:

1. Sat phones are grossly over-rated. You often can't get a signal when you want one and connections are frequently dropped. They are a power-consuming exercise in frustration.

For long-distance communication HF radio (marine SSB and/or HF ham) is the way to go IMHO. If you do carry an SSB, a small portable shortwave receiver for weather fax and shortwave broadcast (like BBC) will reduce power consumption.

2. Spreader lights (and a plug-in flood/spot-light) are very very useful. If something poops out forward in bad weather at night your night vision is among the least of your issues. I feel having light on deck during some evolutions (torn sail, major sail change, etc) is a big safety factor. In addition it is a big help in getting the attention of medium-sized ships.

3. Regardless of how you do it, some self-steering is the difference between civilization and survival. Period-dot.

4. AIS is of more benefit coastal cruising than offshore. If you are headed for Europe or the South Pacific don't worry about it. If you are going to be heading up and down the East Coast or Gulf Coast of the US (I can't speak to the West Coast) it is worth some thought. If NY harbor or the Delaware Bay is on your itinerary it's worth a lot of thought. I'm still thinking about it and haven't decided, but I do have radar ...

sail fast, dave

[s/v Faith]

I have been thinking about stowage aboard Faith.  Specifically, the v-berth stowage that is probably much like the extra stateroom on a larger boat.  It is mostly used for storage of those things you need, but not right now.  (well, that and the head).

  I was thinking of building lockers to contain all of the various things that were in boxes, bags, and just lashed here and there.

  I have been taking things off of the boat forever, but somehow there is always more. 

  That extra roll of no-see-em netting, the spare prop for the dingy motor, the little propane lantern that was the last resort for emergency lighting... this that AND the other.

  I am a 'fix it' guy, and carry way too many tools.  I had spares for spares, and enough fasteners to replace most of the hardware onboard.

 

Maybe the thinking behind KISS ought better to be explored with the list of what we have found NOT to be necessary.

  I was thinking of systems when I started this thread.  I am now looking at another level of 'reductions'.  I weighed the extra large Plano tackle box I kept the spare fasteners in.  This box weighs 41 pounds.  I think I can be comfortable with about 5#.

  KISS is where you find it.
 

 

[Capt. Tony]

41 pounds of spare fasteners!!!  And you thought my bench vice was too much ???

P.s. Good thread though...

[s/v Faith]

The recent trip on my friends boat both challenged and ultimately re enforced my position on chart plotters.

  I have used them before, on other deliveries...  most all large power boats have large plotters.  I understand the attraction, but know better then to rely on them.  If you can not tell what your heading is, or what chart you are on at any time I think you are destined for trouble eventually.

  I think this list is valid, but eventually I think the new generation AIS equipped VHF radios will probably become pretty standard...

[marujo_sortudo]

Just to establish a reference point, this is for a Marconi-rigged cutter that'll be used for coastal cruising initially and then probably offshore voyaging as well.

My list of unneeded items:

1.  Roller furling, but alas I have it ... I do plan on going to only hanked on headsails when I need new sails made.
2.  Battens in my sails.  I also have these, but they'll probably go with the next round of sails, too.  Less cost, less maintenance, and I'm not in a hurry to get anywhere.  In fact, there is a variety of performance enhancing equipment that doesn't appeal to me.  As long as I can sail at a decent clip under normal conditions and beat my way off a lee shore in a gale, I'm happy.
3.  Pressurized water.  I don't have it aboard or on land.  Hot showers are nice though.  Need to make friends ashore :)
4.  A standard marine head.  I have one though, so I'll probably keep it.  If working from scratch, I'd probably do a composting setup.
5.  More than 7 feet of chain on any of my anchor rodes.  I know this is less than many folks are comfortable with, but this boat has already cruised extensively, as-is, and I'm comfortable with her considerable ground tackle: 75# yachtsman (storm), 35# & 42# yachtsman (working), 15# Northill (stern), and I'll be adding either a Danforth (Hi-Tensile) or Fortress for muddy anchorages.  All anchors are easily accessible at bow or stern (none stowed below.)  Of course, I expect other cruisers to have very different opinions and ground tackle configurations.  Hopefully, we'll get to "debate" them over a grog someday...
6.  An outboard for my dinghy.  Oars and sails are just fine by me.
7.  A liferaft.  For off-shore voyaging, I believe in modifying the dinghy to double as a liferaft, by the addition of inflatable flotation (ala the Pardeys) on my, of course, hard dinghy.  With the addition of sails; hopefully, I'd be able to reach shore or at least a major sea lane without assistance.
8.  An engine, but I have one, so I'll keep it.  I will configure rowing and sculling setups though to have an additional backup form of propulsion and one that's quicker to get going than the engine.
9.  EPIRB.  Sailor, save thyself.  SPOT, I am considering, though. 
10.  Radar, AIS.  YMMV, of course.  I'm comfortable with the idea of navigating the fog with only GPS, a depth sounder, and a compass.  I should get plenty of practice on the coast of Maine, too.  And I will be following COLREGS the whole time!  So many folks don't bother with sound signals here in the fog.  It would be nice if they did.
11.  Sat Phone or SSB.  Alas, I need to send/receive email from anywhere to keep my business running, but I'm not particularly fond of either of these.  As bad as it is, I'd probably need a Sat Phone for international cruising (I need email & at least minimal web for work, even though I would do very little on a passage, and with someone else keeping watch.)  For coastal, I'm fine with my powered Wifi antenna and a Verizon MiFi.
12.  Stanchions and knee-high lifelines.  I have stanchion-less lifelines that begin chest high at the boom gallows and run to the base of the fore stay (with a eyelets lashed to one of the shrouds on either side.)  I trust this arrangement more anyway.
13.  A spinnaker.  I am considering a drifter, eventually, though.
14.  An autopilot.  I have one now, but will remove it as soon as it breaks or when I make a wind vane, whichever comes first.
15.  A wind speed or direction indicator.  Ok, I will have a pennant and know my Beaufort scale, but what else would I need?
16.  Heel indicator.  Does anyone really find these useful?
17.  Cockpit led lines.  My deck is safe, steady, and I'm not afraid to go out on it in any weather.  Plus, I like having a clean cockpit.
18.  Marconi-rig.  I have one, so I'll keep it, but I'd love to experiment with other rigs someday.  Plus, lower profile rigs seem more cruising friendly to me.  Gaff and junk are at the top of my list, but if the boat was small enough there are some other rigs I'd like to play with.  Oh, and it would be great to have a schooner just to say, "I think it's time to hoist the gollywobbler!"
19.  Gear for hoisting yourself aloft (single-handed.)  Seems too dangerous to me.  I'd prefer ratlines going up at least as far as the spreaders, but that'll have to wait until I replace the standing rigging.
20.  Stainless steel standing rigging.  I love the idea of fully wormed, parceled and served galvanized rigging ala Brion Toss.  Only really worth it if you'll be cruising a LONG ways, full-time, for many years, in my opinion, though.
21.  Any dock line fancier than three-strand nylon.  With decent chafe resistance, good elasticity, and low cost, who needs anything else.
22.  Any line fancier than Sta Set.  (Although, Sta Set-X is under consideration for when I replace some of my Sta Set.)
23.  Shore power hookup, wind generator, towed generator, or fueled generator.  I do have electrical, but solar and the engine alternator should be enough for me.  I am going for thin-film foldable modules, though.  Extra glass, metal frames, windage when I don't want it, and associated hardware I can do without.  I'll pay the premium to have something that won't cut me and I can stow easily when not needed or when wanting to reduce windage.  As a plus, thin-film does much better in cloudy/shady conditions.
24.  An inflatable life vest.  Not that they don't seem nice, but I do worry about them not inflating or deflating when you need them most.  A comfortable life vest that you can work in seems essential, though.
25.  Davits.  :o
26.  TV.  Lived without that for years, thankfully.  I do enjoy my music (radio/iPod at anchor, mainly) and the occasional videotainment downloaded onto my laptop which I need for work anyway which happily pays for the cruising.  Anything that helps you make an income while cruising is certainly a huge plus and worth sacrificing some KISS.

Always easier to think of what you have/need than what you don't.  I'm sure I've left plenty off this list...

[Captain Smollett]

Just to establish a reference point, this is for a Marconi-rigged cutter that'll be used for coastal cruising initially and then probably offshore voyaging as well.

My list of unneeded items:

A fair amount of this is personal preference, but I would like to make a few comments.  Overall, I like your list and your willingness/commitment to do without.  It is very refreshing.  I only have a couple of "dissents."

5.  More than 7 feet of chain on any of my anchor rodes.  I know this is less than many folks are comfortable with, but this boat has already cruised extensively, as-is, and I'm comfortable with her considerable ground tackle: 75# yachtsman (storm), 35# & 42# yachtsman (working), 15# Northill (stern), and I'll be adding either a Danforth (Hi-Tensile) or Fortress for muddy anchorages.  All anchors are easily accessible at bow or stern (none stowed below.)  Of course, I expect other cruisers to have very different opinions and ground tackle configurations.  Hopefully, we'll get to "debate" them over a grog someday...

Seven feet, huh?  That's a little "light" if anchoring in rock/coral doncha think?   ;)

If only seven feet, why even bother with that?

6.  An outboard for my dinghy.  Oars and sails are just fine by me.

That's what I thought, too.  Until I encountered two little words:  cur-rents.

I could NOT row into the tidal current in Charleston, SC with my family and I and a load-out for a day ashore.  Well, I COULD row into it...making good about 2 inches upstream with each stroke of the oars.  This was not a sailing dink, of course, so you have me there, but since the upstream portion was INSIDE a marina and there was NO WIND, the sails would not have helped much.

Okay, so 2 inches upstream per stroke and about 750-800 or so feet to row...that's what, about 4-5000 strokes?  No wonder I dropped them off on a finger dock and rowed myself in the otherwise unloaded dink the rest of the way.

Our dinghy is a work boat - we haul loads, sometimes pretty big ones (she's rated for 950 lbs).  Using the dink is not ALWAYS in ideal conditions.

Your mileage may vary, of course, and my hat is off to you if you don't use one/...but to me, the 30 pound outboard we now have for the dink was WELL worth the expense and added ex-KISS-ness.

9.  EPIRB.  Sailor, save thyself.  SPOT, I am considering, though. 

I too am considering a SPOT.  My only hold-up at this point is paying $150 per year for the service when I am NOT using it.  If they would have a plan that lets me activate it and deactivate it at will, I would jump all over that.  I've been thinking about writing them with this suggestion. I'd love to have it to keep family appraised while on passage and what-not, but I see no reason to spend the $$ for it to just show my location "in port" for 6 months or a year (or whatever) while we refit or earn $$.

16.  Heel indicator.  Does anyone really find these useful?

I do find them useful, but not as a must-have.  I bought one for my little boat, but more as 'training aid' than anything else.  Low-tech and low $$, so no real draw-back.

19.  Gear for hoisting yourself aloft (single-handed.)  Seems too dangerous to me.  I'd prefer ratlines going up at least as far as the spreaders, but that'll have to wait until I replace the standing rigging.

Probably not "too dangerous" in port where you need to make repairs or do inspections.  Ratlines are and look way-cool, but there *IS* stuff going on at the mast-head.  Again, as the inclinometer, relatively low cost, so why not?

20.  Stainless steel standing rigging.  I love the idea of fully wormed, parceled and served galvanized rigging ala Brion Toss.  Only really worth it if you'll be cruising a LONG ways, full-time, for many years, in my opinion, though.

As opposed to what?  Fiber (amsteel, et al)?  Hmm.  Gonna flat-out disagree on this one.  SS rigging is tried and true and can be repaired underway, at sea, if you have the stuff to do so.

It is only my opinion, but the fiber stuff sounds cool, but has not been 'real world' tested yet.  I personally don't want to be beta-testing for rigging.  We don't know yet how long that kind of rigging is going to last when constantly to sunlight, intermittent near-peak loading and the like.  Maybe it's great and will be all the rage within ten years, but I'll wait for some longevity data before I go that route.

23.  Shore power hookup, wind generator, towed generator, or fueled generator.  I do have electrical, but solar and the engine alternator should be enough for me.

I thought I would not like shore power either, but I have to admit I've come to appreciate it.  Our boat came wired for it.  Anyway, when in a slip, it does come in handy.  Needed?  No way. Handy?  Not bad to have the capability.

Personally, I am not a fan of relying on the engine for battery charging.  That requires fuel, engines fail, it generally is not good for the engine, etc.  You said no fueled generator, but how is that really different from using the engine (other than the engine is already there)?

I like the idea of a towed generator, but it does have its drawbacks.  Better for me is the idea of a minimal energy budget backed by no reliance on the electricity should any/all charging plans fail.

Anyway, good list.  Thanks for posting it.  This is always a good discussion to have and the revisit.

[s/v Faith]

ANother item I find pretty 'un-kiss' on a small boat are wind instruments....  maybe a windex at the mast head, or a but of yarn on the shrouds but no need for some tick-tack things to break.... IMHO

[marujo_sortudo]

Thanks for the feedback, some responses below.

Seven feet, huh?  That's a little "light" if anchoring in rock/coral doncha think?   ;)

If only seven feet, why even bother with that?

Well, this boat has cruised extensively in Maine (lots of rock) and been to the Bahamas (coral) twice via the ICW.  Chafe on the well-used rode is minimal.  Of course, I'm even going against Earl Hinz's opinion here by leaving her with less chain than he recommends.  With the heavier yachtsman anchors, I think this makes sense and certainly they've held up well with extensive cruising, but I don't expect many to agree with me here ;).  I would not go with so little chain on lighter, stockless anchors.

As to why bother with 7 feet?  It helps considerably with the way they stow on the side of the bowsprit, provides chafe protection near the anchor, lets me replace the chain often to keep rust off the nylon rode, provides more catenary than you would think (I've done the calcs), it has already been shown to work well on this boat, and some other reasons that aren't in the fore of my mind at the moment...

6.  An outboard for my dinghy.  Oars and sails are just fine by me.

That's what I thought, too.  Until I encountered two little words:  cur-rents.

I could NOT row into the tidal current in Charleston, SC with my family and I and a load-out for a day ashore.  Well, I COULD row into it...making good about 2 inches upstream with each stroke of the oars.  This was not a sailing dink, of course, so you have me there, but since the upstream portion was INSIDE a marina and there was NO WIND, the sails would not have helped much.

Okay, so 2 inches upstream per stroke and about 750-800 or so feet to row...that's what, about 4-5000 strokes?  No wonder I dropped them off on a finger dock and rowed myself in the otherwise unloaded dink the rest of the way.

Our dinghy is a work boat - we haul loads, sometimes pretty big ones (she's rated for 950 lbs).  Using the dink is not ALWAYS in ideal conditions.

Your mileage may vary, of course, and my hat is off to you if you don't use one/...but to me, the 30 pound outboard we now have for the dink was WELL worth the expense and added ex-KISS-ness.

It really depends what kind of dink you have here.  My dink rows REALLY well, and I've been in her against significant wind and current and made good progress.  I can add another rowing station which should really give her some power when I have extra crew.  That said, my dink is an old school (Atkin Vintage, 1919) design made to sail and row well, and while it could take an outboard, its design would only work with a small one which I could probably compete with myself.

Plus, I've worked in computers for years, so I cherish the physical conditioning I can get in everyday exercise.  I also love the sound of moving over the water sans-engine.  Especially nice at night.

As opposed to what?  Fiber (amsteel, et al)?  Hmm.  Gonna flat-out disagree on this one.  SS rigging is tried and true and can be repaired underway, at sea, if you have the stuff to do so.

It is only my opinion, but the fiber stuff sounds cool, but has not been 'real world' tested yet.  I personally don't want to be beta-testing for rigging.  We don't know yet how long that kind of rigging is going to last when constantly to sunlight, intermittent near-peak loading and the like.  Maybe it's great and will be all the rage within ten years, but I'll wait for some longevity data before I go that route.

I guess you haven't read the Complete Rigger's Apprentice by Brion Toss.  I'm not talking about new technology or fiber here.  I'm talking OLD technology: fully served GALVANIZED rigging.  When fully served, galvanized rigging can last forever (80+ years) and responds to stress and strain much better than stainless.  The downsides are that it requires a good deal of labor to fully serve a rig (about 1 hour per 20' if you're good,) will require spot re-serving when chafed, you have to slush the rig yearly, and it might look a little out of place on a modern boat.  As a plus, the galvanized is about 1/3 the cost of stainless (but you will have the added cost of serving materials and slush,) reduces chafe on sails/lines (when served), makes installing ratlines easier, and can last nearly FOREVER while retaining it's strength as has been proven on many old, old boats.  His book is HIGHLY recommended, and will even teach you a better way to tie your shoes  8)

That said, I'm completely happy with SS wire rope rigging (not rod, too hard to carry spare rod,) provided it is adequately inspected and replaced when needed.  This seems to be something often delayed too much these days and is a likely contributor to the many dismastings we hear about, IMHO.

Personally, I am not a fan of relying on the engine for battery charging.  That requires fuel, engines fail, it generally is not good for the engine, etc.  You said no fueled generator, but how is that really different from using the engine (other than the engine is already there)?

Bingo!  See my bold in your quote above.  I probably wouldn't install this myself, but it's already there, so why not leave it.  I'd prefer a minimal energy budget driven completely by solar.  That said, it is nice to have some form of backup for when the sun's not shining and you need power.  But yeah, I abhor running the engine just to charge batteries.  Just feels wrong to me.

Thanks for the feedback, naturally I expect us all to KISS differently.  That's what keeps things interesting...

[CharlieJ]

Personally I wouldn't go with the seven feet of chain, but that's
MY feelings- if you are comfortable, then go with it. We use 75 feet and find it really nice in both the keys and Bahamas. Settles the boat down and usually we are lying to just the chain.

On the dinghy- I would not consider cruising the Bahamas without a small O/B on the dink. Not because of winds- because of distances in many anchorages. I expect you'll miss a lot of fun especially snorkeling trips, simply because you won't go-too far to row. Your mileage will vary