How much wind is too much?

[ChrisandVero]

Ok, I know that is a very subjective question, but I have been wondering this year how much of our (little) experience is simply too much wind and how much is me being a coward.

We have a 20', 1600# sailboat (Balboa 20), 100% jib and a main with 1 reef point about 2 feet up. With this kind of rig, what would you consider 'time to reef', 'time to drop a sail', etc.? Me, I get really freaked when she heels over and the rail starts getting wet. I know part of a sailing life is getting used to those times when you are heeled over, but this is not 20,000Lbs. blue water cruiser- I worry it might actually turtle!

[Auspicious]

I sail a 22000 lb blue water cruiser. I rarely have the rail in the water. Reef early.

From my small boat experience I would suggest you reef when weather helm builds up. As long as you can keep the boat moving, reefing isn't bad -- you may be slow but comfortable. Have a sailmaker put a second reef in the main for you.

Now -- go find someone to race with. Get a little time on a J/22 or J/24 and get the feeling for sailing on a boat (with competent leadership) closer to her limits. You'll soon find that people give up long before boats do.

Finally, get a subscription to one of the British sailing magazines (like Yachting Monthly). The Brits sail in heavy weather much more than most Americans do, and their magazines reflect this. I watched a Jaguar 22 (like a Catalina 22) launch into the Solent in weather that would have 40 footers running for home in the US. The articles on wind and tide and weather in British magazines are -- over time -- very helpful.

Have fun, be comfortable, and find a way to push your own limits. Your boat will look after you.

sail fast, dave

[AdriftAtSea]

I go out during small craft advisories regularly. 

The genny gets a first reef (four wraps) at about 20 knots.  The main gets a first reef at about 24 knots.  The genny gets a second reef about 28 knots apparent and the main a second reef at about 31-32 knots.  Above 32 knots, I'd furl the genny completely, and go to the third reef on the main, which I just added recently.

I'm a bit conservative when it comes to reefing the sails, since my boat will turtle, as it is a trimaran.

[Auspicious]

I go out during small craft advisories regularly.

Me too. That's when the sailing is really good! <grin>

knots

Apparent or true? I put my first reef in the main at 18 kts apparent, and the second and third when weather helm builds to above 10 degrees. That works for my boat, but maybe I'm a pansy. <grin>

[Godot]

Seafarer 24

Full main and 100% jib up to 15 knots (I don't have a genoa, unfortunately).
Somewhere between 15 and 20 I'll put the first reef in the main.  Depends on my point of sail, how rough the water is, and how tired I am.  Around 20 knots the boat is pretty much over powered. 

I have just had a second reef installed and haven't had a chance to play with it.  I would say I start wishing for it before 25 knots, though.  I've sailed in over 30 with a single reef and 100% jib, but the boat is not happy about it.  And neither is the skipper.  I'm hoping the second reef will keep things comfortable to at least 30.  Time will tell.  Any point of sail closer than a beam reach really wants the jib.  The boat isn't too terribly difficult to handle without it; but just doesn't feel "right" to me.  I'm not sure why. I may need to put in jib reef points for when the wind is in the high 20's or better.  Or get a storm jib.  I don't think I need the full 100% for balance, but something is better than nothing.

I've never felt like the boat was going to go over.  However, she has tried to throw me a couple of times (changing sails in heavy(ish) weather, single handed, without a tiller pilot).

Wind speed is estimated based on weather radio reports.  I don't have a wind meter onboard.

[Godot]

By the way, sailing in the 20's in not what I would call comfortable.  It can be a lot of fun; but it isn't like on some of the bigger, heavier boats.  My boat is light enough that the motion gets, well, lively.  If I get a chance to pull my mast and check the rigging this summer  (I think it is original 34 year old rigging), I hope to take her offshore a ways to see how she handles big water.  You know, to get me prepared for The Scoot!

[AdriftAtSea]

Those wind speeds are apparent wind speeds... and multihulls generally reef for gust wind speeds, while monohulls often reef for average wind speeds. :)

The real reason I like SCAs is that they get rid of most of the powerboats on Buzzards Bay. :)

[CapnK]

Hi Chris -

"Coward" is not the proper word - if you were a coward, you wouldn't even be out there trying and learning! Grog to you for that! :)

As far as wind strengths and whatnot - go with what feels right and comfortable as you learn, but at the same time, try to 'push' your limits a bit every now and then to see what hovers 'over There', just out beyond your edge. :) You'll probably find that you can trust the boat, and that your 'edge' will grow farther out over time with experience.

Keep your hatchboards in, and companionway and ports closed when pushing that 'edge' - for safety, and for peace of mind.

If you do manage to get her to broach, I'd wager that you'll see her come back on her feet fairly quickly. :) Most designers put into their boats a certain amount of conservative thought which allows for the mistakes we can make. It is highly unlikely that, without some large waves helping, you could get her to turn 'turtle' (ALL the way upside down). You *might* be able to knock her down to 90 degrees for a few (long ;) ) seconds, but she will come back up onto her feet. Mostly, I think you'll find that she will let you know if you are doing something really wrong, and will give you hints about what to do right. :)

PS - Don't believe us "experts" ::) blindly. ;D It's up to you to perform 'due diligence' and research and reading, and then take that knowledge with you when you go out for some practical testing and application... Over time, you'll learn what bits of it to keep, what to toss out - what works for *you and your boat and your style*.
It's always a learning process, for each and every one of us. Show me a sailor who "knows it all" and doesn't need to learn any more, and I'll show you someone that *I* won't go sailing with. ;D

[CapnK]

Oh, and a PS or two:

Welcome aboard, and thanks for contributing!

and remember this:

There Are No Dumb Questions, except the ones which go unasked!  ;D 8)

[Joe Pyrat]

Chris, how much wind is to much is a moving target.  When  you are new to sailing, 15 kn seems like a lot of wind, but as time passes and you become more familiar with you boat and sailing your definition of what is too much wind will increase.  For now, let your "pucker factor" determine when it's time to reef or come in.  Usually when you first think you might want to reef, you probably already should have.  A friend  with many years sailing experience says a conservative approach to sailing is a good approach.  Kind of reminded me of the old pilot's adage "There are old pilots, and bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots".  Do what is comfortable for you.

[Auspicious]

Grog to Joe Pyrat for a first class answer.

sail fast, dave

[Captain Smollett]

We have a 20', 1600# sailboat (Balboa 20), 100% jib and a main with 1 reef point about 2 feet up. With this kind of rig, what would you consider 'time to reef', 'time to drop a sail', etc.?

I have a similar boat: 18 ft LOA and 1350 lb (empty and dry) displacement.

My first reef usually goes in between 15 and 18 kts, and that's keeping the jib up; she sails very well in 20-25 kts with reefed main alone.  I don't like to heel excessively, either, as the weather helm wears me out and heeling more than about 20 degrees just feels slow.

Agree with all previous comments...the boat will "tell" you what she wants - it's your job to listen.

Fair Winds.

[ChrisandVero]

Everyone,
Thanks for the kind words and excellent advice! This is only year 3 of sailing for us, so everything is still pretty new (and still very, very fun). Reading about the folks who sail trans-oceanic in small boats got me thinking about this subject because our first sail on 'little' Lake Superior saw us caught in a storm. Luckily it lasted an hour and we managed to tuck into a bay and anchor for half of it. Being out and about in that is more than I think I can handle (currently). But I will learn, and I will sail!

Thanks,
Chris

[AdriftAtSea]

Chris-

The weather on the Great Lakes can get just as nasty as that of the open ocean in many ways.    As you get more experience, you'll find that the winds that were terrifying previously, are merely scary... and the stuff that was scary is not a big deal. :)

[sharkbait]

the same wind speed will do different things to different boats.don't even worry about it.watch your inclinometer.I generally begin reefing at 25 degrees.

[Christopher]

Hey Chris,

In my experience what means too much wind is dependent on what you are trying to avoid.  Too much wind can be hard on your rigging and crew.  Too much wind can make your boat hard to control and too much sail for conditions can make your boat under-perform.  I sail mostly on J/24's and Solings and I've found that once the boat becomes too hard to control, weather helm and dangerous jibes, then it's time to reef.  I've had a boat heeled over pretty far and the sail stalls out long before you capsize.  Broaching is always something to be concerned about in heavy winds, but you usually don't see that unless you're flying a spin.
If you're heeled over more than 25 degrees, your boat isn't performing well.  If you can't trim for optimal heel close-hauled, then you should probably reef.  Definitely experiment with it.  The boat will heel over farther than you think it can without capsizing, and chances are you'll fall off the thing before it will do that :). 

[Needle]

  My two cents....
The whole point is to sail as efficiently as possible. I recon. Boat on her side with a rudder flapping in the breeze is going nowhere...fast.  So, reef to go fast...  and more comfortable.
I don't see the point of pushing the envelope, unless you have no other choice. I have been caught in all kinds of wind, not by choice, mind you. Well, you deal with it any way you can.
Just remember, whatever breeze you get yourself into, you still need to control your boat.
You have to be making way to do that. Either run with the wind or keep some scrap of sail up
to help steer...
Recently, I watched a large, over 50' long sailboat motor into steep 6-8 foot swell, right behind my boat. We had a double reefed main up, motor at full blast and making 2.5 kts straight into the wind 25-28kts. (plus the waves). We were relatively comfortable, with the mainsail pressing the boat onto her side, so that even at the top of the wave, we stayed upright. The big boat had no sail up.... That was not pretty... She was swinging through a 100degree arc, from one beam to the other... I was getting seasick just looking at her.
Happy sailing...

[Christopher]

I agree totally.. sail for performance.  Keep your rudder in the water.  I still think getting to know your boats limits and feeling her out is a good idea.  I've sailed on some 470s in decent winds and on something like that it's definitely important to know where the tipping point is.  I"m not recommending going out and tipping over a boat.  I'm recommending that one push his comfort zones a bit to ready himself for what might happen..  You might be heeling at 15 degrees in 15 knots and suddenly a sustained puff comes through and you find yourself at 35 degrees with waves pushing you further over.  If you are comfortable with water coming up over the rails and sitting on the side of your boat you're less likely to drop the tiller and wet your pants when it happens. 

[ChrisandVero]

Who told you about that?! It was spray from the waves I tell you!  :D

All good advice, and I really like the idea of reef points in the jib from another thread. I think that and a jiffy reef system for the main would make weather changes more fun and less 'interesting'.

[okawbow]

My "other" boat, is a Santana 20, which is about 1350# displacement. It's wide, and has good initial stability, but watch out if you let it heel too far, too fast! We have never sailed with a full race crew aboard; only my wife and I. We have to reef at about 15, change to the small jib at 20, and reef again at 25 to keep upright with just 2 aboard. The Santana just doesn't sail all that well if heeled too far. The steering gets hard, and the boat slows down.

Our Bristol 24 is totally different. It slowly heels until the rail is underwater, but it's not scary at all.  The tiller stays light and balanced, and the boat keeps it's speed well.

Different hull shapes and keels make for different sailing.