How much wind is too much?

[Norm]

adding briefly to the discussion... also look at the shape of your sails.  Flat sails are required for heavy air.  Unfortunately, RF mains and jibs make for "round" sails when partially furled.  Good for tipping the boat over and side-slipping.  Not good for making the boat go forward.

Look at the western sky to anticipate the squall and plan ahead.

Reef the main early and make certain the reef makes the main sail nice and flat.  Traveller to leeward if you have one.   If you have a hank-on jib, move the fairlead aft a few holes to twist off the top of the sail a bit.  Tighten the halyard.  Best, of course, is to hank on a small jib or reef the hank-on jib.

In the interests of full disclosure:  cubemonkey and I got the order of operations wrong prior to a few squalls recently.  The wind gave us a good solid dope-slap each time.  We experienced the fact that the boat is tougher than the crew, too.

I think I should write out a thousand times, "I will reef early."

Have fun.

[Needle]

 I agree with the above....

Flat sails are needed in a breeze, roller reefing does not help, you end up with a fat jib way up the forestay...
And you have no options to set a smaller sail, since  to take down the RF jib you have to unfurl it.
  I use hank on jibs, large 140% and a reefable 100%. Reefable with additional clew and a set of gathering lines...
(have not tries to reef it yet.... better yet, I will look for an even smaller jib during the winter.

Happy sailing! :)

[AdriftAtSea]

The ATN Gale Sail might be a viable option for people with RF headsails.  It "hanks" on over the roller furled headsail and acts to keep the headsail furled as well as being a fairly decent storm sail. They make four sizes IIRC, the small, is about 60 sq. ft., which is good for most 28-32' boats or so... the extra small is usually custom order and IIRC about 45 sq. ft. 

[Godot]

To partially answer the original question: Considering the weather in the gulf, I think it is probably safe to say that somewhere before hurricane force winds is too much.

Just trying to be helpful.   ::)

[okawbow]

Last weekend, winds of 24-28 gusting up to 36, came close to too much wind for me. But, with a crew, it would not have been too much. I found out I needed another reef point or two. A smaller jib would have helped also. Mostly though, it was because I was singlehanding. When the wind is up, things happen faster. It's much harder to raise the sails in strong wind alone. Halyards get tangled in the wind, sails blow around before being raised, and the boat refuses to stay pointed into the wind for long.

Experience means more than equipment when the wind is blowing. Everytime I go out in higher winds, I do better the next time it blows.

[newt]

I learned something yesterday.
Out with my son in law, daughter and wife in 20knt winds. Having a great old time. Partly cloudy with occasional downpours. Other sailors out on the lake, feeling rather salty. Forecast was 10-15 with higher around the thunderstorms. None of them on the lake that I can see. (the lake is 20 miles long, 10 wide)
Just because it is blowing a bit, and I really don't want to tilt that much, we have a reef in the main and shortened jib...
We get hit by a microburst.- not associated with any downpours or increasing clouds. Just immediate force 8 wind. (40 plus knts- the swells are being cut off with with the upper 10-20% turning into white spray- I kid you not!!)
Immediately tried to turn to windward and take down the sails, The Compac 23 was overpowered and unable to respond. Almost broached while turning itself downwind. Jib is furled through heroics of my son in law.  Unable to heave too, as windage  and waves on the hull is too much! Wife is in state of shock, daughter is in the cabin with her, crying. We run with the wind for a minute or two, and then it is gone. All that is left is large swells, we start the motor and limp back to the marina...standing rigging stretched, bilge pumps working, crew in shambles and me wondering what I needed to do better.
I am thinking of starting a new drill on my boat. Much like the man overboard drill, it will be practiced whenever we go out till we have it cold. At the call of "Heavy weather"
1. one hand will hand out life jackets ( it they are not already on)
2. one hand will furl the jib
3. helm will immediately heave too, secure the rudder and start the outboard.
4. Jacklines placed. Cabin slats up and Cabin closed.
5. If in shallow water, anchor will be deployed, if not sea drogue or sea anchor will be deployed.
Oh and one last comment- there are no passengers on a small sailboat, only crew! I think my wife would have been much less traumatized if she had been up there working with us.
Comments?

[CharlieJ]

Not having been on board I couldn't comment on that part, but something to try is simply blowing the sheets. The sails will make a ton of noise and may even get damaged, but if they can't drive then the boat can't go anywhere except for windage of the boat itself . 40 knots all by itself with no waves to speak of is NOT gonna capsize a Compac 23. With the sails out and flogging a bit you can roll the jib, and then haul in just enough on the main to stop the flogging. Then sail on a beam to broad reach.

Just some armchair thoughts there- you were there I wasn't.

DON'T get yourself into the mindset of "start the engine". In heavy going that outboard will only do one thing reliably- it will quit on you. Sooner or later. Or it will be coming out of the water on wave tops and not be providing any help..

If you are going to cruise you MUST learn to deal with heavy weather using sails. It's something you simply HAVE to do.

And trying to place jacklines when the situation is already happening, is just plain too late. They need to be in place already.

Otherwise your list seems pretty straight forward to me.

And I agree totally with your last line. Handing the tiller to your wife while you dealt with sails would have been a much better thing than having her below and frightened. Better to be on deck, frightened, but DOING something.

Happy it all came out ok in the end. In a few months, you'll have a sea story  ( and the winds will be 50 knots :D)

[newt]

CJ,
We blew the mainsail when we tried to heave too. Just the windage from the hull and mast kept the rail and ports! in the water. I have no idea how fast the wind was at that moment, I was too darn busy. I wish I had it on video.
You caution me not to start the outboard. I thought starting it would be a safety measure, and would keep power to the bilge pump. I wouldn't be powering out, just keeping the lights on. Your point about being out of the water is well taken.
Newt.

[Auspicious]

You said you couldn't get the boat up, but have heaving to as part of your plan. Think that through.

I definitely agree with blowing the jib sheet to allow rolling it up. You may find that some main (not trimmed, but in a bit from completely spilling air) will give you enough windward helm to bring the boat up.

Can you heave to without any foresail at all? If not you may need to get the main down to sit a-hull. Can't help you there, as my response is definitely partial jib (staysail offshore, not normally rigged inshore) and reefed main hove to.

I agree with Charlie - the outboard is a distraction and possible detriment. Sail the boat. If you can't count on your bilge pump running "long enough" -- however long that is -- add battery capacity.

The life jacket idea is a good one.

As Charlie says, if jacklines aren't already rigged it is too late. Rig in advance or change your plan. Mine are off inshore and on offshore; response plans to weather differ accordingly (inshore I would go forward to reef the main (all at the mast) with a PFD/harness clipped to the mast while working but unhooked to windward moving fore and aft N.B. bigger boat, much much heavier).

Good experience you had. Hug your wife.

[Captain Smollett]

- the outboard is a distraction and possible detriment.

I agree with this 100%...er, well, maybe 99.8% since I am about to give a 'contrasting' story.   ;D

This one falls into the category of "I wonder what would happen if I try this."

Several years ago, we were sailing the little boat (18 ft, 1350 lb centerboarder)  on an inland lake (not offshore) and got hit by a squall not unlike that in the OP's story....except I SHOULD have seen it coming.  Close-hauled sailing toward some anchored boats and we got laid over.  I rounded up (or rather let her round up) and tacked to get some sea room and my wife helped me drop the sails.

Winds were 32-35 kts sustained with gusts (confirmed later by email to a NWS rep), and that was enough to beat the lake into a froth of good 5-6 footers with lots of spray.

While we were running off under bare poles, I began to wonder what would happen if I had a drag device.  We were doing okay: the boat was handling fine and wife and daughter were below enjoying the ride (my wife DID help me on deck get everything secured as the blow hit..so we pass that one).  My only concern was running out of water at the rate we were sailing.

My first thought for quick and easy drag device was to start the outboard and put it in reverse...at idle.  This worked like a charm.  The ob in reverse slowed her down just enough, and she was riding so good we could have stayed like that all night if we had to.  It was really amazing how comfortable a ride that was.

Thus we went for about 45 minutes or so, until I worked into the lee of a small island, and by that time, the blow was abating.

So, I'm not advocating the ob as a "go-to," survival device....just wanted to share what I thought was an interesting approach to trying something new.

Having learned from that, and much since then, my FIRST choice for weather is heaving-to.  Still nice to know, to experience, the difference between bare poles and bare poles+drag.

As an aside, I know now much better how that boat actually sails in reasonable heavy weather...but this experiment was one step in the direction of having additional confidence to keep 'er sailing in weather.  I now believe 25 kts is a TON of fun in that boat, even singlehanding.

[newt]

Threads like this are always humbling. I am glad that I posted because it helps to crystallize my thinking for the next time. I have been sailing in these western lakes for close to 20 years, this is the second time I have gotten caught like this. I have had a bunch of close calls, were we duck into the marina or behind an obstruction just in time...but this was the real thing.
Windspeed? Higher 35 knts but I don't know how much higher. I have been in gusts of 35-40. The last time i felt wind like this the lakeside weather station reported gusts of 55-60 mph (this is Utah) This time it went inoperative (the weather station) We blew the main because the boom was cutting water on the leeward, thus as stated eariler, making it impossible to round up.
The good news is everyone has recovered but me. All want to go sailing again. Thanks for the advice. i will leave the outboard out of the drill, but include the drogue (either from the bow or the stern- I haven't made up my mind yet.
newt