bilge paint

[Publius]

oh so many questions, i feel i am in over my head.

[CharlieJ]

As to the fiber glass materials- as far as I'm concerned for tabbing, etc, the only thing to use on older boats is epoxy resin. Polyester resin will work but the bond isn't as strong- your are dealing with a secondary bond here- go for the strength of epoxy. Of course with either resin you must grind the surface well to get rid of dirt, etc, and so the secondary bond can get a good "bite". Where you  will be tabbing, hand sanding is not adequate.

The vertical "studs" or cleats are 1/2 inch thick plywood, kerfed on the back side to allow them to easily take the bend of the hull side. Then they are set in thickened epoxy and braced until that cures. In the very first picture you can see two cross  pieces on the very front cleats- that is the bracing holding those in place.

That's not a marking for the port- that's the actual opening and was factory cut there. Tehani has bronze ports which are chromed on the inside, bronze on the outside.

If you wish to add some ports yourself, I'd pick some point and measure both sides back (or forward) from that- just so you are starting from the same spot. Then do the same thing measuring up (or down) for the height. Not always simple. I usually make cardboard mockups on the boats I build, and tape them in place, then eyeball, measure, eyeball, and measure again, til it looks right.

[AdriftAtSea]

I'd second the use of cardboard full-size mockups... it's a lot cheaper to figure out the mistakes with cardboard than it is to find out after making them in plywood or fiberglass.

[Publius]

okay

epoxy resin:  I plan to sand, power wash and then shop vac all the water out ... what could I do to further improve the bonding ability of the resin to the hull?

  Charlie you say:  "The vertical "studs" or cleats are 1/2 inch thick plywood, kerfed on the back side to allow them to easily take the bend of the hull"

Ohhh okay, so those are called cleats (thank you kindly!) okay soo I see how the forward cleats are braced in.  What do you mean when you say the back side is "kerfed"? 

So the epoxy will hold them firmly to the hull without need for fiberglass tabbing?  (That would be awesome news).  Though I dont plan to put cleats in the v birth, the lower half of the cabin and quarter births will be cleated then insulation put in then wood walls (ceilings?) My thoughts for the vbirth were simple vinyl siding (a nice beige) with a thin mahogany trim, thoughts?  Also what type of adhesive would I use to fix the vinyl (if that ends up being the plan) to the hull?

Could either you or Adrift (whose real name I do not yet know) send me a link to the fiber glass materials I would need?  I am utterly new to this and luckily adrift has been sending me links of exactly what to purchase.  What chop am I looking for? Epoxy resin? 

Is it normal for me to be feeling like I've taken on a project I can't handle?

[AdriftAtSea]

okay

epoxy resin:  I plan to sand, power wash and then shop vac all the water out ... what could I do to further improve the bonding ability of the resin to the hull?

First of all, I would wash the interior, then dry it, then use a good de-waxing/de-greasing agent on it, like Interlux Fiberglass Prep Wash 202, then sand it.  If you sand before washing and de-greasing/de-waxing the hull, there's a pretty good chance that the sanding will just embed whatever grease/wax is on the fiberglass into the sanded fiberglass, making it less likely to have a good clean bonding surface.

Charlie you say:  "The vertical "studs" or cleats are 1/2 inch thick plywood, kerfed on the back side to allow them to easily take the bend of the hull"

Ohhh okay, so those are called cleats (thank you kindly!) okay soo I see how the forward cleats are braced in.  What do you mean when you say the back side is "kerfed"? 

Kerfing the back of the cleats means making several cuts perpendicular to the long axis of the stud/cleat every 3-6" or so, so that the material can bend to match the hull's curvature.  The cuts don't have to be particularly deep, say 1/5-1/4" or so, and the greater the curvature, the closer the kerfs need to be to each other, and the deeper they need to be.   This is a kerfed guitar lining:

So the epoxy will hold them firmly to the hull without need for fiberglass tabbing?  (That would be awesome news).

Properly done, shoudn't need to glass them in..epoxy should hold them. You will need to have some good struts to hold the cleats against the hull until the epoxy cures.  One good way to do it is to get the "cargo compartment" bars from the auto parts store.  These bars have screw-adjusters on each side and pin stop like aluminum crutches... so you can adjust them for the width and then increase the pressure by turning them to screw then down tight.

Though I dont plan to put cleats in the v birth, the lower half of the cabin and quarter births will be cleated then insulation put in then wood walls (ceilings?) My thoughts for the vbirth were simple vinyl siding (a nice beige) with a thin mahogany trim, thoughts?  Also what type of adhesive would I use to fix the vinyl (if that ends up being the plan) to the hull?

If the vinyl is a cloth-like material, I would recommend stapling or gluing it to thin plywood and then screwing the plywood to the cleats. 3mm plywood is good material to use for that. Cut it to size, coat it with epoxy to protect it from moisture, and then after the epoxy dries, staple or glue the vinyl to it.  Contact cement would work well to glue the vinyl to the 3 mm plywood.

Could either you or Adrift (whose real name I do not yet know) send me a link to the fiber glass materials I would need?  I am utterly new to this and luckily adrift has been sending me links of exactly what to purchase.  What chop am I looking for? Epoxy resin? 

Is it normal for me to be feeling like I've taken on a project I can't handle?

Where are you located?  That would help in suggesting where you should be buying supplies. Epoxy resin and hardener is heavy, and shipping it long distances is expensive. 

If you were in New  England, I'd recommend Boulter Plywood for the plywood, as they have 3mm Okume for $29 a 4' x 8' sheet.  Epoxy in New England should be bought from these guys. 

As for fiberglass cloth, these guys are pretty good.

Dan. :)

[Publius]

helpful as always!

I completely forgot about the dewaxer/degreaser, thanks for the reminder.  Will wash before sanding then.

I figured that's what it was thanks for the helpful pictures.  Those cargo bars seem like they would do the trick.  I am on a tight budget, is there anything cheaper I could use?

I suppose I cant just epoxy anything and everything to the hull, the infrastructure that would take more weight and usage (such as important stringers/soles/other ceilings) should be glassed?

I am in Philadelphia, Reprisal is on blocks in South New Jersey.

I keep meaning to get pictures up (Reprisal is so dilapidated its a little embarrassing, though its not my fault, I just came into ownership). 

One last and possibly the stupidest question yet, can I use the same Epoxy for glassing as for fixing the cleats to the hull?

A big thanks to Charlie and Dan!  :)

[mrb]

Publius

For installing ceilings and a lot of other ideas I suggest you buy a copy of Bruce Bingham's book  "the Sailor's Sketchbook".  With what you learn here the book will be a good back up and it gives a good description with illustrations of how to do projects.

[Publius]

will check it out, thanks mrb

[CharlieJ]

helpful as always!



I figured that's what it was thanks for the helpful pictures.  Those cargo bars seem like they would do the trick.  I am on a tight budget, is there anything cheaper I could use?

I suppose I cant just epoxy anything and everything to the hull, the infrastructure that would take more weight and usage (such as important stringers/soles/other ceilings) should be glassed?


One last and possibly the stupidest question yet, can I use the same Epoxy for glassing as for fixing the cleats to the hull?

Some answers- Yep- the closet bars are great- but too expensive for me, What I do is rip some strips of 1/2 ply a tad longer than the span I need, then "bow" them in place so the curve forces them outward ( or downward) as required. Might even wind up using those strips as cleats later.

Sure, you can use a thickened epoxy to attach most anything. I fillet things in with epoxy that don't require glassing, and just smooth the fillet and leave it.

And yes, you can use the same epoxy. You might need different fillers for thickening, but the resin is the same.

Oh, and by the way- the last four boats I built were done using an epoxy purchased from B and B Yacht Designs. They don't show it on the website, but it's by far the least expensive epoxy resin I've found and I've been using epoxy since 1976.

http://bandbyachtdesigns.com/

Number is on the website- call and talk to Carla or Graham. Tell 'em Charlie Jones told you to call. Won't save you a nickel or gain me a thing but I like to let them know.

Oh - and just for info- Until I semi-retired last year I built wooden boats and repaired fiberglass ones for a living. I still do  boat work but I'm winding it down so Laura and I can go cruising long term beginning this summer

[AdriftAtSea]

helpful as always!

I completely forgot about the dewaxer/degreaser, thanks for the reminder.  Will wash before sanding then.

I figured that's what it was thanks for the helpful pictures.  Those cargo bars seem like they would do the trick.  I am on a tight budget, is there anything cheaper I could use?

You can also often do the same thing using two wooden boards... just not as elegantly. :) I happen to have two of the expanding cargo bars for my truck anyways...so use them when I need them on the boat as necessary. Basically, you cut a bunch of notches into one side of two boards, put them back to back, and then use wire, string or something else to hold the boards against each other... using the notches to load the boards and tension them.

I suppose I cant just epoxy anything and everything to the hull, the infrastructure that would take more weight and usage (such as important stringers/soles/other ceilings) should be glassed?

Some stuff should be glassed over.  Stringers and floors are usually glassed over, as the fiberglass, not the wood or foam that makes up the body of the stringer/floor is really what provides the strength and stiffness.  Bulkheads are usually tabbed to the hull, but generally, it is a wise idea to leave a small gap, often filled with foam cut to help form nice smooth curves for the fiberglass tabbing, between the bulkhead and the hull, so as not to create a hard spot and "hinge" for the glass fibers in the hull to bend upon and fatigue at. The ceilings and overheads should be screwed or bolted to the cleats.

I am in Philadelphia, Reprisal is on blocks in South New Jersey.

I keep meaning to get pictures up (Reprisal is so dilapidated its a little embarrassing, though its not my fault, I just came into ownership). 

One last and possibly the stupidest question yet, can I use the same Epoxy for glassing as for fixing the cleats to the hull?

A big thanks to Charlie and Dan!  :)

Yes, you can generally use the same epoxy for fiberglassing as for fixing the cleats to the hull.  Usually, the epoxy used for fixing the cleats to the hull is thickened by adding wood flour, microballons, chopped fiberglass, or fumed colloidial silica (cabosil) to the epoxy.  That helps the epoxy fill gaps, gives it a bit more strength, and makes it less likely to drip or sag. Usually, thickened epoxy is compared to mayonaisse or peanut butter... with peanut butter being for gap filling and mayonaisse being more for gluing things to each other.

I'd highly recommend using a no-blush epoxy, as the amine blush is generally what causes the severe allergic reactions some people have to epoxy resins.  Wear gloves, goggles, respirator, etc when working with it.

Wear a respirator with a p95 or p100 filter when working with the thickeners, particularly fumed silica, since they are bad to inhale and can cause serious lung problems if inhaled on a regular basis.  I prefer the full face  mask 3m Series 6000 respirators, even though they're a bit expensive—about $120 for the basic mask.  The full face mask gives far more protection to your eyes than the goggles and half-mask, and is generally less likely to fog up and far more comfortable to wear for long periods of time.

[Publius]

okay guys thanks for the info again.

I suppose the 15 dollar respirator I picked up at the hardware store probably isnt protecting me all that much then?  Ive been sanding off fouling paint, smashing off old fiberglass, tearing off old...well you get the idea (hope my lungs aren't going to suffer as a result).

[AdriftAtSea]

With epoxy, you generally want a organic solvents and a particle filter.  The cheap respirators are generally only particulate filters, and not particularly good ones at that.  According to one CDC sponsored study, the cheap disposable masks can allow as much as 20% unfiltered air through, which kind of defeats the purpose of using the masks in the first place IMHO.  They also do nothing for the fumes generally speaking. 

There are N95/99/100 masks, but they're just single use and for dust and water-based aerosols, and capture 95%, 99% and 99.97% of airborne dust/particulates down to 0.3 microns in size respectively.  The R95/99/100 filters are single use and block dust, water-based aerosls and airborne oil droplets.  The best particulate filters are the P95, P99 and P100, which capture dust, water-based aerosols and airborne oil droplets, and are designed for multi-days usage.

The fume cartridges capture or absorb specific solvents/organic compounds, but don't block dust, aerosols or oil droplets. You need to use both to properly protect yourself IMHO. 

A good respirator, while a bit more expensive initially, is a good deal cheaper in the long run.  I've had one of the ones I use for almost seven years. 

[CharlieJ]

Now here's one place where Dan and I are in total agreement- spend the money on a decent respirator. Doesn't HAVE to be a full face, although those are nice. But it DOES need to be a good quality one. It's your ONLY set of lungs.

Bottom paint is toxic - hey it kills marine organisms, Fiberglass grinding dust is GLASS fibers, wood dust looks like little sand spurs under a magnifying glass.

Get the good respirator

[AdriftAtSea]

Yup, and inhaling fumed silica is probably a good way to get silicosis.

Now here's one place where Dan and I are in total agreement- spend the money on a decent respirator. Doesn't HAVE to be a full face, although those are nice. But it DOES need to be a good quality one. It's your ONLY set of lungs.

Bottom paint is toxic - hey it kills marine organisms, Fiberglass grinding dust is GLASS fibers, wood dust looks like little sand spurs under a magnifying glass.

Get the good respirator