The balanced Rig

[nowell]

Doing some surfing of all things sailing waiting to leave work early and get started on my weekend (on the boat). Anyway, intresting read here ...

http://www.balancedrig.com/

I love the idea, altho it takes some of the work out of actually "sailing" but it seems like it actually has merit!

Discuss?

[Oldrig]

This looks like a smaller version of something I saw in a book by a Brazilian sailor who did a singlehanded circumnavigation of Antarctica. (I can't find the book in the mess I call a home office--but I mentioned the same book here at SailFar at some time in the past.)

His rig was custom built for a large steel boat, but it seemed to use the same principle, which he said was easy to tend, even in roaring 40's gales.

Would it make sailing less fun?

Not sure? Any thoughts?

--Joe

[SeaHusky]

Hi all, (first post!)  :)

It's a bit hard to tell but doesn't it look like an over-enginered junk rig?
How do you reef it?
What does it do better than a junk rig and what does it do less good?

[Captain Smollett]

Welcome aboard, SeaHusky. 

It seems to me that a number of these 'new rig designs' are all improvements only in certain conditions (mostly rather benign conditions at that). 

Everything negative about our current rig design is balanced by some positive that in total outweigh the negatives.  The positives might be strength, simplicity, ease of maintenance, cost, etc.  The 'new age' designs address one negative, remove it, and in the process remove a number of the pre-existing positives.

Of course, that's not to say that this is not part of the process that can lead to truly better rigs...but I think (and this is just my opinion) that what we have seen in recent years is engineers moving around on the trade-off scale optimizing one aspect of the rig at the expense of other aspects, then marketing the improvement as 'revolutionary.' 

[AdriftAtSea]

That's a Hoyt-designed rig IIRC.  It won't work on anything but a stayless, freestanding mast and is mostly experimental ATM.

Pluses are that it makes controlling the sail easier, requires a stayless mast, ...but adds weight aloft, is harder to deal with when reducing sail, etc.

As Capn Smollett has pointed out, the standard marconi or bermuda rig does have some issues, but overall it is pretty tough to beat. While the Hoyt balanced rig may eventually lead to a real improvement, it isn't really one yet IMHO. In many ways, it is an off-shoot of the AeroRig concept, which used a single boom for the main and jib.

[s/v Faith]

I can not picture having an unstayed, rotating mast on a small cruising boat.

Maybe someday.... interesting idea anyway... maybe a concept to employ on small rental boats for never-sailed renters?

[CharlieJ]

Unstayed, rotating masts work very well on cat ketches. There are several quite sucessful designs out  there using them.

In fact, I helped one clear the dock just yesterday morning, heading out.

[Captain Smollett]

Unstayed, rotating masts work very well on cat ketches. There are several quite sucessful designs out  there using them.

In fact, I helped one clear the dock just yesterday morning, heading out.

There is one of these Sandpiper 32's in our marina:



Nice looking boat.  VERY large LOA/Beam ratio (from dead aft, this thing looks like a knife blade).  On this rig, the masts rotate to furl the sails.  With the furling sails and wishbone rig, I've been told she's quite pleasurable to sail.

The dude that owns her has told some awesome stories of sailing this boat.  His previous boat was a Drascombe which he sailed up and down the coast (camp sailing?) for many many years.

I would call her a cat ketch, but he calls her a cat schooner.  Indeed, that seems to be what the builder referred to the boat as.  She's a 70's-80's era boat designed by Walt Scott, and from what I've read, the Sandpiper 32 was based on the Presto as designed by Ralph Munroe.

For the life of me, I cannot figure out on what basis cat-ketch vs cat-schooner is used.  I've seen boats called both (like this one and a Sea Pearl 21 for example) and the rigs, at the least the mast configuration, seems identical.

[AdriftAtSea]

Captain Smollett?

The major difference between a schooner and a ketch or yawl is the size of the aft-most mast.  On a schooner, it is either as large or larger than the forward mast.  On a ketch, the mizzen mast is smaller than the foremost mast and is forward of the rudder post, where it is aft of the rudder post on a yawl, but again, is smaller than the fore-most mast. 

In the boat in your photo, the reason it is a cat schooner is because the forward mast is stepped very far forward, as normally found on a cat boat rig and the aft-most mast appears to be about the same size of the forward mast.

I hope this helps. 

BTW, the cutter rig is different from a double-headsail marconi or bermudan rigged sloop. The thing that differentiates the two is where the mast is stepped.  A cutter rigged boat will have the mast stepped further aft than a double headsail sloop rigged boat.  Many people describe what is properly called a double-headsail rigged sloop as a cutter, but they're often wrong.

[Captain Smollett]

I hope this helps. 

No, sorry, it does not help.  I do know what schooner, ketch, yawl, sloop, cutter and catboat rigs are.  I'm completely comfortable with the label cat-ketch for a two masted boat with the foremast being right at the stem.  The Sea Pearl 21 comes to mind as a typical of the rig in a familiar boat.

The confusion is over the DISTINCTION between cat-ketch vs cat-schooner.  I've seen IDENTICAL RIGS (as far as the mast layout goes) called both.

That Sandpiper 32 is called a cat-schooner by the builder (and by owners), yet the mast configuration looks the same (to me) as ANY cat-ketch I have ever seen.  Both masts are equal height and the foremast is all the way forward.

[AdriftAtSea]

Capn Smollett?

Here is an image of a Halsey Herreshoff designed cat-ketch:



Here is an image of a Freedom cat schooner:



The confusion you're seeing is probably caused by people mis-labeling the boats. 

[Captain Smollett]

Maybe I'm thick, but I don't think the difference is that simple.

The boats I am describing have two masts that are THE SAME HEIGHT.  I'm pretty sure this describes the Sea Pearl and maybe the Princess 22 (Charlie ?? ).

On a side note, didn't Capt Nat's son design a boat with a similar rig and was quite adamant that it should be called a cat-yawl?

I'm thinking that the upshot of this is that there is not hard-n-fast rule for for cat-{other rig name} hybrid rig naming.

I'm also thinking "who cares."  The builder and the owners of the Sandpiper call it a cat-schooner, so hey, it's cool with me.  I was just hoping to learn something.

[CharlieJ]

The P-22 is a definite ketch- main mast is larger and forward.

We callour trimaran a cat schooner as both mast are alike (and interchangable)

I've had friendly arguments with Graham Byrnes (B and B Yacht Designs) about this.  According to him, unless the aft mast IS taller, it's a ketch. Of course if you go to Chapelle, you find a boat called a periagua(sp?)

[Captain Smollett]

unless the aft mast IS taller, it's a ketch.

That was my thinking until I encountered this boat.  I just took a peek at the Sandpiper, and both masts are definitely the same height.  The builder (and now owners) call it a cat-schooner.

Go figure.  I guess if there is 'debate' among designers and builders, my being confused about it is not wholly unexpected.

Back to Balanced Rigs and discussions of rotating masts....

[s/v Faith]

...There is one of these Sandpiper 32's in our marina:



Nice looking boat.  VERY large LOA/Beam ratio (from dead aft, this thing looks like a knife blade).  On this rig, the masts rotate to furl the sails.  With the furling sails and wishbone rig, I've been told she's quite pleasurable to sail.

The dude that owns her has told some awesome stories of sailing this boat.  His previous boat was a Drascombe which he sailed up and down the coast (camp sailing?) for many many years....

Thanks for clearing that up.  I had looked at this boat in your marina back before you got there... I thought it was an interesting design and had wondered what it was.   It really is striking how narrow the beam is.  I wonder what the owners think of the interior.

[Frank]

I like eggs   ;D    I sailed on a Cat Ketch sharpie years ago ( 81)  FAST old  boat...planed off wind!!. Aft mast was taller. Right name-wrong....who cares...it went like heck when the wind blew !! Had dble canterboards....had to raise the forward one to tack. Neat boat.

[mitiempo]

As far as I know if the aft mast is shorter than the foremast it is a ketch. If the aft mast is as tall or taller than the foremast it is a schooner. It's an interesting rig. Less strain on the hull and a lot less to break as well as less windage. Read about it's advantages here. http://www.sponbergyachtdesign.com/Masts.htm
Brian

[CharlieJ]

And a yawl is?? :D ;D

interestingly, as we sit here in Pelican Bay, off Cayo Costa St pk, there are five sailboats at anchor. One is a modern sugar scoop stern thing( who ran a generator all night).

Of the other four, one is us, a 1961 CCA sloop, one is a cat
ketch (with unstayed masts), one is a lug schooner and the last is a CCA era (long overhangs) yawl.

I found it quite fascinating

We sat out this latest front here, as did they. Probably be sailing south tomorrow, if the winds go
northerly as forecast. Still stiff today and on the nose.

[LooseMoose]

Yawl is aft mast behind the rudder stock...

Bob

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