Small boats - high latitudes?

[GregX999]

Okay, so I'm still in the dreaming stages, so it may be quite a bit early to be thinking of such things, but: Can a small sailboat like most people on this site have (Triton 28, Alberg 30, NorSea 27, SC31, etc...) "safely" sail the higher latitudes such as around the Cape of Good Hope or Cape Horn or up to Iceland and Norway?

By "safely", I mean relatively of course. Compared to a 35 or 40 foot boat. And I know there are lots of variables and so much depends on the skill of the skipper and so forth. But all those things considered equal. For example, if you've sailed those latitudes in a 35+ foot, 30k+ lb. boat, would you do it in a 27-32 foot, 8k-15k lb. boat (assuming that you would even sail in such a small boat at all)?

I don't yet have a boat, but I've sailed enough to know I want one, and that I want to live and cruise on it. And I have visions of being able to visit the high latitudes as well as relaxing in the more tropical ones. (I've been reading too much Slocum, Moitessier and the like) But my budget will probably be in the $20k-$40k range (either $20k and upgrade, or $40k but good-to-go).

And I wouldn't get my first boat and go charging straight to the bottom of South America, it would obviously be something I'd work up to. But I'd hate to get a boat that left me feeling like it was holding me back from going where I want to go - especially if that's the idea behind getting one in the first place.

Am I putting the cart before the horse? Or are these valid thoughts?

Thanks,
Newbie Greg

[Captain Smollett]

Alberg 30's have rounded all the stormy capes, so if that is your criterion, then yes.  I'm pretty sure the other boats you mentioned have done likewise.

The Pardey's have done a fair amount of high-lat sailing in both of their wooden boats under 30 feet in length.

I think the biggest danger in high lat sailing in the boats you mentioned is ice...fiberglass and ice don't mix too well.  And that danger does not diminish with a fiberglass boat that is 40, 50 or 120 feet.

The Martins wintered in Iceland then wintered the following year in Norway aboard a 35 footer, but she was steel.  And they DID still worry about ice.

Also, we here at sailfar don't generally assume that a 35-40 footer (or bigger) is automatically the 'safer' boat.  We have numerous older threads here on the forum discussing the genuine merits of the 'small cruising boat' that extend well beyond purchase price.  I guess I'm saying that most of us like the smaller boat for some very real seaworthiness and safety reasons, not because a 25-30 footer is all we could afford.

Sorry, maybe I read your post wrong, but it seemed to me a bit like you were saying we'd have bigger, "safer" boats if we could.

As for what boat to get, get the one that you will use now to get experience.  If that's a 15 ft day sailor, go for it.  I don't recall where you live or sail (sorry), but that's going to determine more your first boat purchase than your long term plans of crossing oceans.  Get some miles under your keel while you try out several boats, and PLEASE don't think in terms of 'moving up' means bigger LOA.

I personally think it would be a big mistake to get your first boat as a 35-40 ft conventional blue water cruiser, unless you are really in the position to use it.  But, you have to factor in that bigger boats generally get used less and cost a lot more money to operate/maintain.  Again, it's not all about purchase price.  A trailerable boat is a great first boat (being able to travel to varied cruising grounds with small time commitments) and for that matter, so would be a sailing dinghy.

You can buy a LOT of small boat, do a lot of upgrades and still have $$ left for a kitty if your budget is $40,000.  You could buy two Alberg 30's in reasonable shape for that amount of money, and they would take you just about anywhere you'd want to go.

[CapnK]

Hi Greg -

Sure, 'small' boats can do high latitudes! Many, many have. Google "Berserk Albin Vega 27" for some guys who went to Antartica just a few years ago in a plastic classic, sub-30'er. From their website:

The last boat, a 27 feet Albin Vega, is no longer the home of the bold Vikings. Our new home is 48 feet and build in steel - we just call it The Tank!. The Albin Vega built in the early 70`s fitted perfectly into a young punks low budget dream. Jarle sold just about everything he had and bought a Albin Vega, since she seemed easy to handle alone. Small boat, small problems?- big boat, big problems was his philosophy for the singlehanded sailor without money.

Any problem on our new boat means BIG problem.

They have a larger crew now, and did the Northwest Passage (think: Ice.), so I think the larger boat was as much a necessity for crew space and toughness as anything else. Seems like I read that their AV27 might also have suffered some damage during their adventures which made them come to the point of finding something else...

On the extreme end of small boat, high latitude sailing is Sven Yrvind. he's prepping a 16' (IIRC) boat right now that he intends to round Cape Horn from East to West, 50* to 50* in, and he is in his 70's. :)

And I cannot recall the gents name at the moment, but one of the Englishmen who participates in the Jester races took his 20'ish boat up north of the Arctic Circle for a several weeks cruise from England, and it was a great read...

These are only a few examples, off the top of my head.

Anyway - With regards to size and safety, I think it was in Adlard Coles "Heavy Weather Sailing" that he stated that, basically, safety and size have no correlation below about 60' LOA; any boat under that length is as likely to get rolled by large seas as any other. It was only boats OVER 60' in length that showed their length kept them from the ''experience'... ;)

Given the numbers you posted, if I were you, I would spend $3-7K on a good, well-found and seakindly 25-32' offshore cruising boat, about the same on outfitting her for travel, and then go for it for a couple of years. After that, you'd still have $25-30K if you wanted to go larger (or to spend on upgrading the current boat for high latitude travel), and a much better idea of where and how - or even whether - to spend that money. :)

[Tim]

And I cannot recall the gents name at the moment, but one of the Englishmen who participates in the Jester races took his 20'ish boat up north of the Arctic Circle for a several weeks cruise from England, and it was a great read...

Here is that Englishman  ;)



http://www.thesimplesailor.com/

[GregX999]

Thanks for the replies guys!

Captain Smollett - Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you guys would have bigger boats if you could afford it, nor that a bigger boat is necessarily an upgrade. I guess I was just trying to acknowledge that most people DO think a larger boat is automatically safer and I wanted confirmation that that is not true when it comes to high latitude sailing.

I certainly wouldn't want a 35-40 foot boat as a first boat. I've been reading enough of this site now that I honesty think I'd be much happier on a smaller (27-31) foot boat.

CapnK - I read Sven's entire website a few months ago. Now THAT is a remarkable guy! And those are some SMALL boats! Sure his current project boat is 16', but that boat is being purpose built. I'm talking about something more "standard", such as the models I listed. (I don't think I'm quite as remarkable as Sven... ;D )

You advice (re: $3k-7k) is quite sound. But it seems like the "more offshoreish" boats are in the $30k-40k range (NorSea27, SC31...). Are those types really more offshore "capable" than a Triton (to pick a $10k boat) for example? Are they worth the extra $$$ or are you just paying for the name?

Also I have to get over a certain hangup of mine where I tend to think of anything I do or buy as being for the looooong term. I have the feeling (although totally unfounded) that if I don't get a boat that can round cape horn as my first boat, then I'll never be able to round cape horn.  ::)

I like that... "Small boat, small problems?- big boat, big problems"

Greg

[Captain Smollett]

You advice (re: $3k-7k) is quite sound. But it seems like the "more offshoreish" boats are in the $30k-40k range (NorSea27, SC31...). Are those types really more offshore "capable" than a Triton (to pick a $10k boat) for example? Are they worth the extra $$$ or are you just paying for the name?

Hi Greg,

Alberg 30's generally start around $10,000 but can be had for less.  You can find Triton's for under $5000.  Boats for these prices generally need a bit of work, but that can be a good thing (if you are so inclined to do the work) because you learn the boat, build it strong and the way you want it done.

I don't think boats of popular models that sell for 30,000-40,000 are more 'offshoreish' than the lesser expensive ones.  Look at the track record of the designs.

John

[CapnK]

You're making me examine the way I I think of the value of boats. :) That would be in two ways: Market Value, and "Out In The Briny" Value, for lack of a better way to put it.

Market Value is what you can sell a boat for, or what a boat is selling for.

"OITB" Value is quite separate from that, and has to do with how the boat is going to treat you when you go voyaging. The ocean doesn't give a whit about how much you spent or the age or name brand of a boat, it comes down to what you've *got*, and how well it works, especially when the poo hits the rotating atmosphere circulator. ;)

Disclaimer: In my remarks below, please excuse the generalities of what I say in trying to get a point across - I intend no offense or disparagement to the types of boats I mention, nor their owners! All boats mentioned are, IMO, great boats that I have or would consider owning! :)

John kind of made my point in his last post, which is:

Find a dog of a boat (condition-wise, which results in a low price tag like I mentioned) that is of a type which is proven offshore. Look towards boats from the 60's era, there are some incredible deals on boats which the main parts (hull, spars) are sound, where the rest has deteriorated to a point that devalues the good parts. Rebuild it top notch, and you'll have a boat that *when you are out in the briny* is every bit the worth of a "$30-40K Market Value boat", for much less than that price.

The Nor'Seas, SC's, CD's, etc... are all of a much more recent vintage (late 70's thru now), and as such usually carry a perceived, Market value higher than a 60's boat. They are much more likely to look better & be better maintained, being 'younger'. However, if you only consider the hull and spars, then the higher value is for no really good reason that I can think of. Considering just their basic 'boat properties', they are not inherently better boats which absolutely require a higher price point - they just have higher Market value due to (generally) being nicer looking and better maintained.

The older boats were laid up thick, and used high quality & more of the materials which make a difference in the strength of the hull, than many boats which came later (due to costs of materials *and* advances in the tech). Go price a hull from a factory which lays them up today like they were done in the 60's, and your jaw will drop. PSC is a production builder who builds heavy, somewhat like that, and when they last offered the Flicka a few years back, they were asking $85K PLUS, for a 20' LOA boat. I'll wager that most of their cost in a Flicka would have been due to the nice, heavy, strong lamination schedule that they spec. Point of the above being that the age of the hull does not equate to a lesser quality and therefore value, and in fact may well be the opposite.

So look for a boat that is a fraction of the cost of what is selling on the market as a "proven offshore cruiser", but is older and neglected despite having been "proven" in it's own time (and more recently in the hands of fixer-up sailors). Spend the purchase price again, or perhaps x2, on outfitting it and bringing it back to spec, and you can wind up with a boat that is by far the equal of any other Out There, where dollars make no sense. :)

And when or if the time comes to sell, having invested less will make it easier on you as the seller and the buyer, while leaving you with more resources monetary-wise than had you spent 5-10x the amount for a different, but not necessarily "better", boat.

Tim - that's him! Great reading!

[nowell]

Seems like I read that their AV27 might also have suffered some damage during their adventures which made them come to the point of finding something else...

It sunk =). However, in the book, coming back across the Drake they lost a main porthole, plugged it with sleeping bag and anything else to stem the flow, and also steered a different course to protect the wounded side. The Vega got her crew home safe and sound ultimatly. She sank when he was headed back up north I believe, and not sure what it was, but the speed it went down thinks it was pretty major.

Just for note, Vegas can be had for sub 10k, in various states and barring minor upgrades, can do what you want.

Also, the names you list off as "small, bluewater capable" are the common ones everyone knows. That also inflates their price somewhat. Don't forget to look at James Baldwin's list on Atom Voyages for a good starting point.

[skylark]

And I cannot recall the gents name at the moment, but one of the Englishmen who participates in the Jester races took his 20'ish boat up north of the Arctic Circle for a several weeks cruise from England, and it was a great read...

Here is that Englishman  ;)

http://www.thesimplesailor.com/

Roger Taylor may be sailing to the US right now, he is part of the Jester Challenge entry list.  The first boats have had landfall on June 26, so Taylor may be approaching the coast at Newport RI.  

http://www.jesterinfo.org/jc2010entrylist.html

[GregX999]

Thanks for the feedback guys! Everything you've said so far makes a lot of sense and is shaping the way I'm thinking about what I want in a boat. That's on top of all the excellent reading on this site already. But this stuff written "just for lil-ole-me" is extra helpful!!

CapnK - Your two different measures of value, "Market" and "OITB" are perfect! I think "Briny Value" should be a new internationally recognized standard unit of measure.

So I think an Alberg 30 or Triton 28 are now at the top of my list. And they're there without feelings that I would be compromising (in the areas important to me anyway). I'll have to revisit that list on atomvoyages.com too now that I have a slightly different perspective.

I probably wouldn't actually be buying anything until next spring anyway (8-10 months from now). I need to keep saving and dreaming in the meantime. Might as well be dreaming of the right type of boat! ;D

Greg

[maxiSwede]

Great thread! I've been away from the web a while, again.

Great posts CapnK. Agree on the 'Briny Value' as a new int'l recogniized unit.

Sven Yrvind (Lundin back then) was a hero of sorts for me in my early years, and my largest inspiration when I got hooked on sailing.

Re: the original question, of course it can be done- and has been done- the biggest difference IMHO is the level of (dis-)comfort one would experience. Even in the insulated hull of R?de Orm, and with a good diesel heater I am very reluctant to go to Greenland or Antarctica because how fun is it to spend months down below with the hatches closed during the Arctic winter?!

In a 'biggish' boat, with more living space down below, and an interior steering station it woukd be another ball game all together...

so our conclusion is to (maybe) do it, but as crew on a 50-60 footer or so...

In warmer climes I don't see a huge advantage for a bigger boat though, unless the children keeps poppin' out every other year... ::) ;D

[maxiSwede]

Oh, BTW - ice is hardly ever a problem in northern Norway (as opposed to the Baltic Sea) because of the Gulf Stream, and I think it's very rare on Iceland too.

[GregX999]

I have no desire to spend any time in the higher latitudes during the winter! On a boat OR on land! :o

But I do think I'd like to cruise Norway in the summer, and perhaps Iceland and the other island groups up there. But I'd certainly start my way back south by the equinox. And I'd like to go around the horn (again, in the austral summer) and maybe checkout the Straights of Magellan and some of the other places you'd come across down there. But then head back up northwards as soon as I've made it around. I have no plans to "hang-out" in the 40s or 50s. (I would SO rather go around the horn (man vs. nature) than go through the canal (man vs. bureaucracy). Plus, I lived in Argentina for a half-year and visited Ushuaia once already (via airplane), and I'd love to go back via boat).

Of course, those are just "extras" - I'm sure 80%-90% of my time would be spent in the tropics, or summer in more temperate climes (New Zealand, Japan, The Mediterranean, etc.).

Greg

[evantica]

I can just salut you! keep following your dream. I sure as heck will ;)

Yes thats me dreaming of an open ocean...

[CharlieJ]

ROFL- I'm with you there. I've flown out of Keflavik, Iceland, to Norway, Scotland, Thule Greenland, Goose Bay Lab among others. Had my blankets frozen to the cabin side for two weeks in NC once.

I'll be more than happy to never see temps under about 50 degrees again- ever.

[Skipper Dan]

Wow, and here my favorite temp is 40?. 50 is OK but if you start to work it starts getting warm. I like a temp you can work and still keep your shirt on. 80? and I'm fried not good for much of anything but sitting around. The kids came over for the 4th today, grabbed a blanket and huddled underneath it. My air conditioning really works. ;D

Dan

[CharlieJ]

When we had our furniture repair shop and later when I was building boats in that shop, Laura hung a thermometer behind my work bench, with firm instructions that when it hit 105 I was to shut the shop down and go away.

Down in south Texas, I work quite well upnto 100. After that, it's just plain hot.

80 degrees is when we pull off long sleeve shirts

[tomwatt]

I've flown into Iceland a couple of times during the winter... it's a little disconcerting to not see the sun when Mickey's hands say it's supposed to be almost time for lunch! I do recommend a short day trip to the Blue Lagoon though!
And I don't recall seeing any sea ice around - only showed up nearer the Canadian coastline.
And I'm not much good working when the temps go over 80 f. On the other hand, when it drops below 10 f, the skin on my face begins to tighten and feel funny.
As far as voyaging on a small boat goes, put me down in the "still hopeful" category myself. There are a couple of Pacific Seacraft 25s listed for sale not too expensive these days, a Frances 26 and a Laurin 28, plus lots and lots of other great boats out there as well. I just don't buy into the concept that only rich people with large crews in their employ have a monopoly on voyaging.