Liferaft or foam?

[SeaHusky]

I know this has been discussed earlier in various forms but something that has been on my mind for a while is the complexity of a liferaft and its use. If you can launch it successfully from the cabin top in heavy seas and it functions as designed and you manage to get into it then you first have to survive hypothermia and then try to survive in the raft, using questionable supplies, long enough to get rescued (the raft itself also has to survive this long).
In my life I have done skydiving, mixed gas diving, mine clearing, solo arctic winter touring and other potentially hazardous activities where risk assessment and safety is an issue and I just don't feel that a liferaft is something to bet your life on.
Some here use their rigid dingy as a lifeboat which eliminates some of the issues but not all.
The safest solution I can think of is also the simplest which is to have an unsinkable boat and stay with it and all its supplies until rescue or landfall under juryrig.
Roger Taylor has made his 21' Corribee unsinkable by adding floatation foam for and aft but by doing so seriously limiting both storage and cabin space. Is this in your opinion a practical option? My thoughts are that if you can live comfortably on a 25' boat then a 28' would leave the same space and storage after adding the equivalent of the boats displacement in foam wouldn't it?
This could be either placed in the lazaret + under part of the cockpit and under the V-birth or you could line the entire hull with 4" of foam (ETAP- boats are built this way and claim to be unsinkable http://www.etapyachting.com/index.html).
The situations where this could fail is if your boat is split in half by a collision or more probable, fire.
If your boat burns then you are out of options but this still seems to me to be the solution least prone to fail.

So my question to you all is, is this a practical alternative?
Am I just full of stupid ideas or is it worth looking into?

I also realize I may have posted this in the wrong section. If so, please move it. Thank you!

[CharlieJ]

Trimaran?

As Jim Brown (trimaran designer)says-

"they lack the finality of sinking"

If I could afford one a smaller tri would be my #1 choice for a coastal cruiser..A larger one for long range voyaging. One of the most comfortable vessels I ever lived aboard was my Cross 35

And don't come at me with the old "capsize" thing. It's an over hyped non starter. Cruising multis just haven't done it.. Racers, yes, Cruising boats, no.

But they cost more, because they must be built stronger than a monohull, but can't have construction that adds weight- therefore hi-tech. And you can't load all the "junk" aboard, particularly on a smaller boat.

[Captain Smollett]

I have precisely zero direct experience on multihulls, but want to throw this out there.

It's not a "negative" at all, just something folks used to monohulls might want to be aware of before looking into multi's (well, cats, dunno about tris), and of course, this was TOLD to me, so I'm not giving direct experience.

I know a family that used to live on a 50 something foot mono, and two years ago or so went to a 38 (I think) foot cat.  Man, that thing is BIG inside, and it suits them (a family of EIGHT).

They run the trip from Ontario to the DR and back at least once per year, and most of that is offshore.  A typical trip might have "up north" to North Carolina, and North Carolina to the Bahamas or the DR; back is similar.  They do very little on the ICW.

I asked them how the cat was different offshore than their mono was...and they LIKE the boat, but report the 'motion is quicker...it takes getting used to.'  

All this diatribe just to get to that point...it rides different.  Not worse, necessarily, just different.   ;)

As for foam vs life rafts, I personally think that's a valid approach and one quite a few others subscribe to.  On small boats, a lifeboat is harder to 'justify,' those that are 'programmed' in the laundry list of "Must Haves" will call you all kinds of names for not carrying one.

It is amazing how (a) truly much damage can be repaired or dealt with at sea and (b) how many people with life rafts or EPIRBs have abandoned prematurely.  These make for interesting study in the psychology of survival...

[CharlieJ]

Yes, it's quite different. But hard on the wind I could set a drink down and not have it spill.

And at anchor, with the boat riding to a bridle, things are MUCH more comfortable. No hunting at anchor.

Now in a left-over short chop on the beam, with no wind, the boat could get a little
"Jittery" THAT wasn't particularly comfortable, but it isn't on board a mono either.

But I once came down the Chesapeake, running DDW under main and working jib, (Mizzen was stowed),  wing and wing, logging a steady 14 knots for  over two hours. And watched that  jump to 19 knots for over five miles when I turned into Mill Creek on the Wicomico and came onto a reach. And this aboard a full time liveaboard ketch rigged cruising trimaran  (Cross 35) with three people and all the their gear aboard, including a bike and two dinghies.


Now I can't speak for Catamarans- never cruised one.. But many like them. Personally I wouldn't own some of the newer ones- that I call "room-a-rans"  You know what I mean- the two story ones. Would consider a Wharram in the 30-34 foot range though. Not fast, but solid- HUNDREDS out there cruising. Smaller ones just don't have much room. Derek Kelsall, Richard Woods, and others design good , cruising boats.

I like 'em, and would go back to a tri in a heartbeat, if I could find one inexpensive enough. Therein lies the rub. TONS of older monos (like Tehani and Katie Marie), much smaller selection of good multihulls.

[Oldrig]

SeaHusky,

I've never actually had to deploy a liferaft, but I did have to practice using one during my "Safety at Sea" certification. It was horrible--and I can't imagine trying to climb aboard one in heavy seas and cold water.

Are you familiar with the "Portland Pudgy," a rigid, air-filled roto-molded plastic dinghy and doubles as a lifeboat?

This is also a possibility (Is it available in Sweden?), but it's very expensive.

Added foam makes sense but, remember, the builders of "Titanic" thought she was unsinkable.

Just a few random thoughts.

--Joe

[marujo_sortudo]

Did anyone else notice this on the ETAP homepage:

"How to survive 2012 ?

Special attention will be given to surviving the tidal wave with the help of unsinkable boats.
If we are able to convince some of the present and future owners to co-operate, thousands of people will certainly survive. Count for yourself: 6,000 boats in total were built in 2002. In 2012 there will be about 10,000. If we are allowed to use a quarter of them, i.e. 2,500, with an average of 4 persons aboard, then about 10,000 people would be able to escape from the tidal wave. That is more than enough to start a new civilization."

???

I'll agree with Smollett's (a) and (b) heartily.  I think folks worry too much about sound monohulls sinking offshore and well-skippered multis capsizing.  Making sure that the boat is well found, able, and you have the skills to skipper her well and repair her at sea seem like much bigger variables risk-wise.  Knowing how to administer some level of emergency medical care is very wise.  

I'd take a beefed up dinghy (Pardey or Portland Pudgy style, but homemade), over a liferaft any day.  Still, I'd only want to leave my main boat as I saw it sink beneath the waves.  Regarding collisions, watertight bulkheads are popular, esp. toward the bow.  For myself, I'm happy to sail good monohull without the bulkheads and foam.  I'd be quite happy with a multi that could be sealed up to float upside down, if capsized, too.  I believe that these are statistically safer than a drive to the corner grocery store (and no I don't have stats for that,) which I've been doing all my life.  

I find it strange how we give different rates of worry to different risks that are often not reflected in the actual danger they pose.  By far the majority of deaths don't occur offshore, due to collision, or in heavy weather.  Coast Guard publishes it's statistics every year:

http://www.uscgboating.org/statistics/accident_statistics.aspx

Of course, these statistics are heavily influenced by small recreational boats (and often poorly skippered ones, at that,) in coastal waters.  Still, with all the focus we have on off-shore safety, isn't funny to think we're probably more at risk near the coast and other boaters?

I wish we had similar statistics available for just long-term cruisers.

[David_Old_Jersey]

Not a fan of the liferaft concept nor the practicalities of one (if needed).

I did briefly consider foam, big plus is insulation (hot and cold) but boat too heavy for the amount of foam I could live with (and lose space for).

What I have gone for is to identify the most likely sources of water ingress:-

Thru Hulls (being replaced and removed) - when toilet not in use on passage the valves are shut. Hoses double clipped.
Propshaft - (have simply used a jubilee clip to stop it ever simply sliding out!)
Rudder stock (being encased in a watertight compartment)

In addition, I am dividing the boat up into watertight(ish!) compartments (Forepeak / saloon / engine compartment / Aft Cabin) using removable half height partitions (still ongoing that one!) plus building in the ability to make some storage compartments quickly watertight (interior is mostly wood) with a fender or 2 (or whatever) stuffed inside to displace water (back out whence it came!). The idea being that a hole in one area will be containable and not automatically flood the entire boat (tough cheese on me if it's a collision that spans two compartments!).

Will also be looking to displace some flooding in the forepeak by being able to secure a few fenders (or even an inflaltable dink!) near to the floorboard area.

Overall not seeking to stop the water coming in instantly - just trying to mitigate it's effects, at least long enough to buy me some thinking / doing time! ...........a couple of tons of water inside sloshing side to side and fore and aft does a lot of damage and would make working a solution more difficult.

Still to do is a portable (electric) bilge Pump, with long hoses (on tob of existing manual and electic pump - plus a number of buckets!).











g

[Godot]

The pain of having a sailboat with a full liner (I speak of s/v Godot, of course) is that adding foam is non-trivial. If I were to do what needed to be done I'd probably be better off building a boat (an enjoyable, but time consuming, and generally expensive, affair).  The idea, however, especially on smallish boats sounds really good to me.

Life rafts are expensive, have recurring inspection requirements, and are questionably survivable. I've heard more stories of floating boats found with missing life rafts where the crew was never found than people who were rescued from their raft.  In fact, I can't remember the last time I heard of a successful life raft rescue (where it wasn't the coast guard or someone who dropped the raft, and was therefor well aware of the status of the castaways).  Very recently I read of an experienced sailor being picked up off a raft (a Jester sailor, I think) who died shortly later of exposure.  I strongly suspect that the odds of survival would be increased if the money for a raft was spent on other safety or seaworthiness concerns.

BUT, there is a saying in the long distance backpacking community..."we pack our fears."  It's well established that people feel safer in the wilderness when inside their very thin walled nylon tents then out in the open. It's irrational, but common (I'm not sure tent nylon would stop a raccoon, never mind a bear).  Instead of packing a can of bear mace, the sailor packs his fear in the form of a life raft.

If I had to guess why people take to their rafts when their boats are still floating, it is because of stress overload. For whatever reason, they feel they cannot handle the decision making anymore, so make one final choice, to take to the raft. After that it is pretty much up to God, fate, or what have you.  I would have to think that having a boat that is theoretically unsinkable would be its' own comfort and may allow sailors to have enough emotional strength to keep on keeping on. Or at least hide below until the sense of fear and doom has eased enough that they are willing to return to the business of sailing the boat.

BTW, I try not to be too critical of people who fall apart or make poor choices under the stress of life and death decisions.  Just like a soldier never knows how he is going to react in combat until someone is shooting at him, a sailor doesn't know how he will react when in the grips of a hurricane (or whatever serious event threatens). Hopefully he survives and is better prepared for next time.

[Godot]

Sorry for drifting all around the topic. Final answer: If I had a choice between an unsinkable boat and a life raft, I'd chose the boat.

[LooseMoose]

I'm not a huge fan of liferafts in general but I think a point or two is worth mentioning...

For one, boats do catch on fire on a pretty regular basis and I've known more people who have had fires aboard than folks hitting something hard enough to put a hole in their boat or other possible sinking scenarios. This in itself makes it needful to have some sort of exit strategy even if the boat is "unsinkable".

On our boat we have two very large float bags that fill with a standard 80 ft scuba tank and just about makes us "unsinkable" when deployed and for boats smaller than 35 feet or so this is no bad tactic as it does not take a lot of room and has more uses than just in a sinking sort of emergency... Over the years I've used the bags for recovery and salvage jobs as well as assisting another boat that was sinking. All in all a good investment.

On the liferaft front I like the idea of a dinghy that does double duty...

Bob

http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/
http://islandgourmand.blogspot.com/

[Godot]

For the anecdotal collection, I don't personally know any boats that have had a serious on-board fire; but I do know one that blew up (power cruiser, gasoline motors), and, I think, three that were struck my lightening and sunk (I don't think anyone was aboard any of the three so can't speak to emergency repair potential).

Life rafts clearly have their place. They just seem more suited to a "you're probably gonna die anyhow" last ditch survival chance.  Assuming limited funds, I think I'd jump for the foam first. Or, in my case, neither (anybody got a spare nickel?). Of course, I could be wrong. I often am.

[SeaHusky]

The pain of having a sailboat with a full liner (I speak of s/v Godot, of course) is that adding foam is non-trivial. If I were to do what needed to be done I'd probably be better off building a boat (an enjoyable, but time consuming, and generally expensive, affair).  The idea, however, especially on smallish boats sounds really good to me.

Let me drift around a bit.  ;)
I am often surprised by the obvious lack of practice when it comes to insulating boats but this is of course because I live in a northern country where insulation and condensation issues are more common then not. Replacing the liner with 1/2" foam mat and then a new liner is a major job but it is done all the time here. If you want to really get into it then talk to the crowd who become "liveaboards" here. Insulation is a no brainer, the discussions are around preventing ice damage and such.

But if you want to add a full hull liner that will float the boat when waterlogged you need around 4" and that is probably done by casting 2 part PU-foam in some way or the other. Much easier would be to simply fill the V-birth and some equivalent area aft with PU-foam. The question is rather, can you do without that storage space?

Fire is a problem but the dinghy could possibly cover for this occasion because fire is not naturally linked to bad weather.
But  then another question arises and that is raft placement.
Is on top of the coach roof really a god place to have the raft, in heavy weather or in case of a fire?
Wouldn't the cockpit be a much better place to try to launch from? 

If a lightning strike sinks a boat, there must be something wrong about the boat..  ???

[SeaHusky]

On our boat we have two very large float bags that fill with a standard 80 ft scuba tank and just about makes us "unsinkable" when deployed and for boats smaller than 35 feet or so this is no bad tactic as it does not take a lot of room and has more uses than just in a sinking sort of emergency... Over the years I've used the bags for recovery and salvage jobs as well as assisting another boat that was sinking. All in all a good investment.

This sounds like an innovative approach!
How do you plan to use them? Will they keep the boat at the surface with freeboard or submerged but not sunk?
Is it the open bottom dive salvage bags or something different?
Any pictures or links would be helpful!

[Godot]

In s/v Godot's case it is a molded liner, essentially a boat within a boat. Not cost effective or easy, sadly, to add foam.  The insulation would be nice to have. Still, there is no shortage of other boats on the market...

Boats sinking from lightning is not uncommon at all. Apparently while following the path out of the boat lightning often blows out seacocks, or, barring a good conductor on the seacock, might just pass through the hull, superheating and melting a hole through it. Even a tiny hole below the waterline will sink an unattended boat.  As near as I can determine through all the lightning strike folklore, fully grounding the rig to a heavy ground plate below the waterline often (but not always) prevents the critical hull damage; but increases the chance of having a strike at all.

Scariest moment of my sailing life (I've had a few) was in a serious lightning storm at anchor on the Magothy River. Lightning struck the water maybe a boat length away (made the hair on my arms stand up); but left my ungrounded boat/mast alone.

[LooseMoose]

Our float bags are of the enclosed sort (http://www.subsalve.com/flotation.htm)...

[Sunset]

This is a very interesting thread. I have been doing some research on what it would take to make our new build unsinkable. All of my decks and cabin will be foam core. I hate condensation. The sandwiched 11/16ths cypress hull I haven't checked how much buoyancy it will add. I have a 2 sq foot sample of the hull construction that I need to check for the amount of buoyancy per sq foot it will contribute. But doing the math for the ballast shows that it will take a lot of foam to float that lead. 2500lbs of lead would need 37 cubic feet of foam to float just it. That's not considering that the lead doesn't weigh as much under water as on land, so it would be a little less. So that's an area of foam nearly 4'x10' one foot thick just for the ballast!! I Haven't done all the math but if enough things work together she may be swamped but not on the sea bottom.
I also would rather take my chances in a well found dink and have some chance of a self rescue instead of floating with the wind and currants and hope someone finds you. A dink with a stored food and water, small gps or compass and a well stored small lug rig. My dink will have sailing capabilities.

[jmpeltier]

SeaHusky, how has this decision process been coming along?

I spent a full day in a one-man military liferaft (packs up the size of a briefcase) during Air Force survival training just off of Pensacola.  The water was calm and the weather was good with only a few dozen shark sightings the previous few days, but it was barely big enough to sit up in, I was wearing heavy soaked flight gear all day, and had a few feet of fishing line with a hook and never caught anything.  But still...I'd rather take my chances in one of those with a good PLB/EPIRB.
As Godot alluded to, we pack our fears.  Along those lines, I'd rather pack mine in a small last-ditch liferaft than create scenarios in my head in which I need foam, four bilge pumps, a dozen watertight bulkheads, etc in my 27'.  Superstitious as it sounds, I'm a firm believer in the black box theory and think you can get the same peace of mind by practicing good seamanship and repair skills (which I still have a lot to learn, but anyways...).  Foam would just eat into storage space needed for tools to make those repairs, and for beer/wine/rum.  I wish I had room for a dinghy that could double as a liferaft, but I don't, so I'm just going to get the smallest practical raft I can find to use during that transition between "you REALLY screwed up" and "rescue!".  Just hope I don't end up like Steve Callahan (the 76 days part).

[johnnyandjebus]

jmpeltier

Any idea where one would buy a military life raft like you describe?
Currently I have no need for a life raft but I do like the idea of find sources that are suitable for a single crew(solo sailor). Understanding that even a 4 man life raft is pretty darn small.

John

[jmpeltier]

The life raft I was trained on is the LRU-16/P, available from Life Support Int'l.  They supply all sorts of survival gear to military, aviation, and first responders (and apparently anyone who's got the cash).  http://www.lifesupportintl.com/products/Life_Raft_LRU_16_P-136-626.html

[CharlieJ]

Might also look in to what are called "Coastal" rafts. Not as sturdy as offshore ones, and not as large, but cheaper too.