Porter's Boat Search

[Porter Wayfare]

So, Charlie,
Compare briefly in terms of handling, if you can, the Meridian and the Ariel. I've pored over the drawings and I have an idea of them that way, but no sense of them otherwise.
Porter

[CharlieJ]

Should be pretty close.

Ariel is a foot more beam, and a little longer. Tehani lays over to 20 degrees almost immediately, then locks in. That wineglass shape and narrow (7  foot) beam.

I can steer Tehani, rail down, with finger tips. I'd say the Ariel is about the same.Bit more interior room in the Ariel,, due to the foot more beam. But also a tad more draft. I've loved the Ariel for years as a great little boat, as is the Meridian. I'd have no trouble choosing either

Edited to add-

I've sailed Tehani some 10,000 miles cruising now, both inshore and  multi-day offshore, and she's done everything that's ever been asked of her. Tough little boat.

[Porter Wayfare]

Thanks and a grog. I'm experiencing a bit of boat search fatigue. It's nice to know the decision between the Ariel and the Meridian is not fraught with troublesome complications.

[w00dy]

Did you say "boat search fatigue"?  :o Here's a grog to that!

[Tim]

Should be pretty close.

Ariel is a foot more beam, and a little longer. Tehani lays over to 20 degrees almost immediately, then locks in. That wineglass shape and narrow (7  foot) beam.

I can steer Tehani, rail down, with finger tips. I'd say the Ariel is about the same.Bit more interior room in the Ariel,, due to the foot more beam. But also a tad more draft. I've loved the Ariel for years as a great little boat, as is the Meridian. I'd have no trouble choosing either

Edited to add-

I've sailed Tehani some 10,000 miles cruising now, both inshore and  multi-day offshore, and she's done everything that's ever been asked of her. Tough little boat.

I hear Ariels have more places to hide grog  ;) although a certain someone keeps stating you are able to find them Charlie  ;D

[CharlieJ]

 ;D ;D ;D ;D

The true truth is not in the man

;D ;D ;D ;D

But he's a heckuva good friend

[Porter Wayfare]

I got back late last night from looking at a Kittiwake in Ohio. In keeping with CharlieJ's previous post: There are two great rules in life. Never tell everything all at once. Meanwhile, here is a pretty boat.

[Frank]

That truly is a good looking boat!!  Love the more traditional doghouse cabin. Great lines !!

[tomwatt]

Kittiwakes were supposed to be a stretched version of an Alberg 22 (Kenner Boat was doing A22s under contract, then some nefarious dealings happened in which they got cut out of the business, so they added a foot to the boat, faired it out, creating the Kittiwake 23). There is a pretty good sized owner's group, quite a few hulls out there... since Kenner was based in my home state of Arkansas, I've always been interested in the tidbits.
Is that boatyard located in Cinncinnati? Looks familiar.

[okawbow]

I think the Kenner boats are well made. I am working on a Kenner privateer 26 now, and the hull and deck are put together very well. The is a Kittewake 23 at our marina. It's a pretty boat and a good sailer. I don't think it has near the room in the cabin as my Bristol 24, but it seems to keep up with me sailing wise. The Motor well is offset like my Corinthian 19, but is rather small. The Kittewake is trailerable, and probably easier to launch from the trailer than my Bristol 24.

[Porter Wayfare]

Yes, the boat is at a place called Strictly Sail in Cincinnati. Nice place, nice owner. http://strictlysailinc.com/

The boat is #526 built in 1977. It is, to my increasingly trained but by no means expert eye, in good shape. Solid deck. Clean. Just a few small leaks below--and it rained like crazy the night before I got there. Good paint. A main and a jib in pretty nice shape. Heavy cloth compared to my Wayfarer! No obvious hull repairs.

Really, my only question about the boat is what happened to the mast? It's straight and not dinged anywhere but about an inch or two of the bottom of the extrusion (not the hinged step plate) is broken off in a jagged manner--like it shattered. There is a piece of stainless steel wrapped around and through-bolted to the mast and the stepping plate, if that's what you call it. How on earth do you knock off the bottom of the mast extrusion?

There is no damage or repair to the cabin top in the area of the mast step that I can see inside or out. The inside looks to be uniformly the same texture throughout. It has been recently (a few years ago) painted white inside. It hasn't been sailed much according to Strictly Sail Bob since it was redone by someone in Indiana or Illinois, I can't remember.

The person who re-did it seems to have only rebuilt the interior. I noticed that the mast beam (a couple of sawn oak 1x about 3 members) didn't look professionally cut. The arcs of the two pieces were a little wavy and didn't match like they would if it had been cut all at once on a bandsaw. It looked like someone used a handheld reciprocating saw. It wasn't all that bad, but it caught my eye.

Looking closer I noticed that this mast beam did not quite touch the underside of the cabin roof. It's about a heavy eighth inch away. It touches at the outboard ends, and then is pretty uniformly shy of the roof along the center of the arc. The mast step did not dip when I bounced my weight on it. Also I noticed that the wires for the masthead light (but not the coax) were routed over the beam and not through any kind of notch. They didn't have any pinch marks. All that struck me as not really a big deal--but it was kind of odd. It raised a question, but I'm not sure it means anything beyond the carpenter's skill.

That and the mast thing-conspiracy or coincidence: you decide. Let me know.

The trailer was a nice fit on the boat. Six poppets. It was a converted two axle car hauler, probably a little heavier than it needed to be. But it was a good job.

Bob pointed out a good burger joint to me. I drove home through some really heavy rain.

Porter

[mrb]

Was you happy with the head room and could you live with the head arrangment. Two important considerations especialy if you have company along.  One thing to check pout with the mast is to try stepping it then unstep it  if all seems right.  As an aside I share coffe with a fellow sailer who once worked at the kenner facility and am aquanted with a nephew.  People are proud of the kenner boats around here but strange to say there are none here in the area they were built in.

[Porter Wayfare]

If anything the A22 may have a bit more cabin space, particularly in v-birth headroom. The A22 seemed to have more useable storage compartments. But it seemed easier to crawl back head first into the quarter birth spaces under the cockpit seats on the Kittiwake.

[David_Old_Jersey]

On the mast thing - my first step would be to ask the Vendor.

Sounds like the mast fell over, the deck not being damaged would explain why the mast foot is! Could even be that the mast is not original and fell off someone else's boat and was bought as a (cheap) replacement for the original mast.....that either fell over the side and went gurgle or broke halfway up.......or even got wrecked when in storage.

FWIW, a damaged foot is not automatically a fail, depends on how it is fixed - looking a bit untidy is a reason for a good hard look / think but I would not rule her out simply on that. In any event masts can be "sleaved" (an extention added) - mine has had one (from new) 10 foot up for over 40 years, as have all her sisterships (over a hundred), but back then sleaving not so unusual.

[Porter Wayfare]

When I pointed the ragged end of the extrusion out to the vendor he looked at it like it was the first time he had seen it. It was covered over and hidden by the stainless patch. The patch was done in such a way that it did not call attention to itself. I only looked closer because I noticed that it was asymmetrical and I thought that was odd. He said he hadn't known it or how it happened.

Now, I'm a house builder and when I walk into a house I notice things immediately that I know other people don't. So, I'm a little inclined to doubt he never noticed it before, but I don't know. He seemed like a pretty decent guy.

What do you think about the gap between the ceiling of the cabin and the mast beam then?

[David_Old_Jersey]

What do you think about the gap between the ceiling of the cabin and the mast beam then?

Sounds like the mast / cabin roof won't be dropping more than 1/8th of an inch!

Also sounds like someone did a job to the best of their ability (and the results not quite as hoped for) - and stopped before finishing it off (I am guessing done before the time of the current Vendor). Could well be ok as the beam being solidly connected to the sides effectively puts the cabin roof in tension (if that is the right word?) - obviously an internet diagnosis is not something to put money on!, but my gut says poke some Epoxy filler in, sand it down, a coat of paint - and keep an eye out for any movement or stress fractures on deck / down below.

But same as for the mast, I would be more comfortable in getting a second pair of eyes on it.

For the mast even if good to go I would also be wanting to tidy it up, even if only so when I sell another prospective buyer does not raise the same concerns as you! Might also be worthwhile getting an idea of cost and availability of a s/h mast locally (doesn't need to be exactly the same size).......even if only only on a "just in case" basis.

But the good news is that both things could be used to really nail the Vendor down on price!

[Captain Smollett]

What do you think about the gap between the ceiling of the cabin and the mast beam then?

Sounds like the mast / cabin roof won't be dropping more than 1/8th of an inch!

Which may or may not be a enough to cause problems.

While Yves Gelinas was in the Indian Ocean, he got knocked down and his mast compressed the cabin top a mere centimeter or so (admittedly larger than 1/8 inch), and it was enough to prevent him from closing the sliding hatch.

Open hatch in rough Indian Ocean seas? 

Could well be ok as the beam being solidly connected to the sides effectively puts the cabin roof in tension (if that is the right word?) - obviously an internet diagnosis is not something to put money on!,

This was my initial thought, too, that at least there's the start of a proper repair there.

but my gut says poke some Epoxy filler in, sand it down, a coat of paint - and keep an eye out for any movement or stress fractures on deck / down below.

The wood mast support is a problem on the earlier Alberg 30's (Ariel's bigger sister's bigger sister), as delamination is common.  The newer A-30's don't have this problem since it was replaced by an Aluminum support bonded to the cabin top..

The fix Yves did when he made it to port was to attach aluminum sister plates on either side of the wood beam.  This is also the recommended fix for pre-liner Alberg 30's, and there is even a company that has the template for the plates on file to mill them.

So, I guess I'm saying that I would take David's fix one step further.  He's right...first step is to get the wood that's there bonded to the cabin top, but I'd then strengthen the whole thing with the aluminum plates.

A few bucks for some aluminum plating is relatively cheap in terms of the gains made in strength and durability...and peace of mind.

Importantly, get CapnK to chime in here on (a) the stages he went through to design Katie Marie's mast support and (b) to post something on the final design.  That should give something more specific to the Ariel.

Finally, almost all of the older boats with wooden mast supports have at least the potential for problems in this area.  It's a combination of age and being a major stress point.  I would not view such a problem as a deal breaker on a 60's era boat.  If you do, you might as well not look at 60's era boats (many have already been fixed and many are not showing problems YET, but, it's a common theme).

[Jim_ME]

So, I guess I'm saying that I would take David's fix one step further.  

I think that I would take both David and John's fix yet one step further and...

Get a bigger Alberg boat ... ;D

Okay, okay...  ;)

[Captain Smollett]

Get a bigger Alberg boat ... ;D

Nice looking boat.

1967 Alberg design.  Beautiful.

However, to paraphrase the earlier comment:

almost all of the older boats with wooden mast supports have at least the potential for problems {with the mast step}.

Statements do apply to the B-27 as well:

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f55/adding-support-post-under-mast-38687.html

;) ;)

[Jim_ME]

Nice looking boat. 1967 Alberg design.  Beautiful.
However, to paraphrase the earlier comment:

almost all of the older boats with wooden mast supports have at least the potential for problems {with the mast step}.

Statements do apply to the B-27 as well:
;) ;)

Yes, I thought that this B27 looked beautiful, too.

The impression from the photos is that she has been well cared for--so perhaps, the mast support has already been upgraded?

Joe, I wondered if you knew anything about this boat, since it is in your area?