Cyric30's Search for a Boat

[CharlieJ]

On the side galley- couple points that sealed the deal for them.

First, he's 6'2 and 220 pounds, and she's slender, but 5'9, so sometimes it was a squeeze.

Second, he play's guitar and with only the dinette seats, one at each end of the table,, there was zero place he could sit and do that.

Third, before, there were only two readily available places to sit below, if they had company. Now, another couple, or even several people, can come below and sit comfortably to visit. Plus, now the two of them can snuggle on the settee and watch a movie on a computer sitting on the dinette  ;)

So all in all, for THEM it is a much better deal.

[Cyric30]

Hay again All.
Godot, with a D :)...my bad i do not know where i got the G from...
Ok
In my constant wandering of the internet i keep running across things so here's a new one
All right im a bit confused on this and cant find much of an answer

Tartan 30
sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=1284
Vineyard Vixen 30
sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=834

the Tartan is listed as a Fin Keel w/Skeg
the Vixen is listed as a Long Keel

So what makes the Vixen a Long Keel?
i realize the Tartans Keel is bolted on, but is that the difference? is the Vixens Keel internally keep thus making it a long keel in some way im not understanding?
Also how would the keels compare to each other in various sailing/motoring conditions.?
im just curious and trying to learn :)

[Godot]

I don't think it has anything to do with the way it's attached to the hull. I think a long keel is just that...longer than what they consider to be a fin. It looks a like a little less draft which probably had to be compensated for by extending the keel aft slightly. I guess. I have no idea what the threshold would be. The Tartan 30 looks like it has better prop protection, though, which could be something worth considering.

[Jim_ME]

I think that the term meant by whomever filled out the sailboatdata form is "Long FIN keel" to distinguish it from a short fin keel, which may just be called a fin keel (as for the Tartan 30).

I find the Vineyard Vixen 30 very beautiful with its double ended form, traditionally lowish free board, and cabin form and proportions. the club-footed jib is easy to handle especially when solo sailing, and quick tacking up a channel or inlet.

The keel-stepped mast is a structurally strong design, eliminating the possibility of the mast compression loading of the deck/bulkhead/beam. It is the type that most of the larger wooden boats used.

I like the way the keel is integrated into the hull form with internal ballast and probably has somewhat slack bilges which would help give a sea-kindly motion.

I'm not a big fan of the short deep fin external-ballast keels that are bolted to the hull on cruising boats. You can imagine how much torque they put on that short connection to the hull if you hit something hard. I had seen a few fin keel boats that had hit rock reefs hard and the amount of damage that it did to the hull, where a typical full keel (or even a long fin keel the the Vineyard Vixen, or the Tartan 34, has) with a gradually sloping keel leading edge will ride up on a reef. Have seen those too, where there is just a scrape on the keel.

From the amount of the boat that is dedicated to the cockpit (you can especially see it in the profile drawing) I would say that the Vixen is optimized for coastal cruising with some daysailing/weekending with a lot of people aboard who can spread out in the relatively large cockpit. For primarily offshore sailing/voyaging all that cockpit volume could be a liability. Maybe there is another version with a bit less cockpit and a bit more cabin length? (Like the Pearson Ariel 26 versus the Commander 26 versions for these different purposes).

On the Vixen keel form, it is interesting that the ballast is all forward of the sump, so there is none in the extension. It does increase the lateral plane, but they chose not to have the aft end of the keel rise vertically to meet the hull, which makes me think that they did not want that much area, to keep that cutaway between the keel and rudder large, and make it more maneuverable. Perhaps it is done with that heel extension to decrease the distance that a lobster pot line would have to rise up and foul the prop (or rudder). It would also provide more keel bottom length and make the boat more stable fore-and-aft if you careened/dried out the boat against a dock to clean the bottom without having to haul it out on a lift, and spread the load of the boat out over a greater keel length/area.   

[Cyric30]

Hay All

Jim, you are correct in the Vixen is beautiful with the canoe stern and the traditional style. really like the look, but as you say not the best suited for a long distance boat.

The internal ballast is preferred by me as well im still looking for a boat with all the design features i like, but "perfect boat" may not be out there for me, at a price i can afford, at any rate.

Ive done a bit of looking, and see if you all concur, the keel here, i think is termed a "Brewer Bite", after Ted Brewer, still not sure if that makes it a long keel or a fin keel, most likely its something in between, seems like it might be an interesting compromise between the 2 types, wonder about how it performs compared to the other two.

The Vixen Data may just be a typo, as i looked at a few others of the type such as the Hullmaster/HM-27

http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=5517

And I really like the lines on this boat as well, but i never heard of it till i looked at Mr. Brewers designs.

Thanks all for contributing to the discussion, this type of stuff, spurs me to look at new and different stuff and re-evaluate things some times.

I think that the term meant by whomever filled out the sailboatdata form is
"Long FIN keel" to distinguish it from a short fin keel, which may just be called a fin keel (as for the Tartan 30).

I find the Vineyard Vixen 30 very beautiful with its double ended form, traditionally lowish free board, and cabin form and proportions. the club-footed jib is easy to handle especially when solo sailing, and quick tacking up a channel or inlet.

The keel-stepped mast is a structurally strong design, eliminating the possibility of the mast compression loading of the deck/bulkhead/beam. It is the type that most of the larger wooden boats used.

I like the way the keel is integrated into the hull form with internal ballast and probably has somewhat slack bilges which would help give a sea-kindly motion.

I'm not a big fan of the short deep fin external-ballast keels that are bolted to the hull on cruising boats. You can imagine how much torque they put on that short connection to the hull if you hit something hard. I had seen a few fin keel boats that had hit rock reefs hard and the amount of damage that it did to the hull, where a typical full keel (or even a long fin keel the the Vineyard Vixen, or the Tartan 24, has) with a gradually sloping keel leading edge will ride up on a reef. Have seen those too, where there is just a scrape on the keel.

From the amount of the boat that is dedicated to the cockpit (you can especially see it in the profile drawing) I would say that the Vixen is optimized for coastal cruising with some daysailing/weekending with a lot of people aboard who can spread out in the relatively large cockpit. For primarily offshore sailing/voyaging all that cockpit volume could be a liability. Maybe there is another version with a bit less cockpit and a bit more cabin length? (Like the Pearson Ariel 26 versus the Commander 26 versions for these different purposes).

On the Vixen keel form, it is interesting that the ballast is all forward of the sump, so there is none in the extension. It does increase the lateral plane, but they chose not to have the aft end of the keel rise vertically to meet the hull, which makes me think that they did not want that much area, to keep that cutaway between the keel and rudder large, and make it more maneuverable. Perhaps it is done with that heel extension to decrease the distance that a lobster pot line would have to rise up and foul the prop (or rudder). It would also provide more keel bottom length and make the boat more stable fore-and-aft if you careened/dried out the boat against a dock to clean the bottom without having to haul it out on a lift, and spread the load of the boat out over a greater keel length/area.   

[Jim_ME]

I would say that "Brewer Bite Keel" is a full keel with a cutaway (bite) aft [and slight forefoot cutaway] to make it a bit more maneuverable.

I've always admired Brewer's Jason 35 design
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=4413

This layout appears to me to be optimized for a cruising couple, with only two sea berths (the settee berths in the main cabin). A design choice was made to have an aft galley, large chart table/nav station, and maximum storage in the aft main cabin and cockpit lockers, instead of a quarter berth (or two). (He may have done another layout with extra sea berths for a cruising family.)

In this design the "bite" is even relatively smaller, and the rudder gets virtually all the support and protection that a full keel design would offer. Notice how compact the cockpit is, giving more space to the cabin.

Looking at the profile, and the beautiful hull form and cabin proportions, sheer, I think that this design is about as close to perfection as can be found.
The interior layout plan is incredibly clean, symmetrical, and aligned...everything is integrated and nothing appears to be an added afterthought. Even the drawings are exceptionally clean and straightforward.   

[Jim_ME]

Joe, I kinda ran with the topic of Brewer's Bite keel and it gave me a chance to post on his Jason 35 design, and although an interesting subject to discuss, as a practical matter, there may not be many Brewer boats on the market in your price range.

I did see this ad for a Jason 35 in the PNW...for $20K
http://bellingham.craigslist.org/boa/4730676078.html
although the seller does write
"I'm open to offers at this point".
and includes a link to a blog about Another Jason 35
http://svpisces.blogspot.com/about

[Jim_ME]

I did just post an ad that I saw for an Alberg 30 near Galveston, Texas in the SellFar section.

The boat is missing it's rig, but you should be able to find a used rig fairly reasonably with some time. [Or at least a mast & boom, even if you redo your standing rigging.]

The ad price is $3k, but does say "Moving, need boat sold. Make offer."

Also "Boat was dis-masted in the Atlantic but made it home safely."

[Jim_ME]

Jim Thank you for the info, and also the time you spend writing them.

Hey Joe, In general, I wouldn't recommend an Alberg 35 (such as the one in this thread), or any boat near this size, to anyone that was just getting into cruising and planned to do much single-handed cruising.

For me, personally, it is more an issue of [initial, use, and maintenance] cost than difficulty [though they are related]. I would, at most only be cruising/living aboard for a part of the year, so the boat would not be my only home, and I would want to keep the costs of hauling out and storage reasonable. I have a heavy duty boat trailer so could have a boat hauled out and loaded onto that trailer, and then could tow it home to park in the driveway/yard for the winter. My personal limit would be about a 28-30 foot/9000 pound boat [Alberg 30, Cape Dory 28]. With an Alberg 35 [12600 lb/9.7-foot beam], it would mean having the boat hauled out and stored in a boatyard (for up to 8 months) per year in this area, or hauled out, the mast unstepped, and the boat delivered to my driveway by a commercial hauler with hydraulic trailer (and special permits for beam over 8.5 feet). Both of these options are considerably more expensive than my being able to take care of this myself independently, and provide a strong disincentive to get a boat so large. For others with more financial ability, the additional cost is worth it, but not for me. Some may take their boat South most winters, and so then the cost of hauling/storing a larger boat and the short season here is not as much of a consideration.

[If cost was not nearly as much of a consideration, or I would be taking the boat South in winter, an A35 would be on my short list of "ultimate" voyaging boats.]

If affordability is an important factor, I would [as others have previously] encourage people to start with the smallest (within reason), seaworthy boat that will allow them to do the kind of sailing/cruising that they plan to do, in reasonable comfort (which varies for different people).

There are many threads in the SailFar - People, Boats, and Stories > Boat Discussion Section that discuss boat selection size, use, and affordability, so yes, it may be better to review and add to those, so that whatever we may add will be useful [that is, easier to find in a broader discussion thread] as a reference in the future.

You're welcome, Joe. I'm posting my reply here in this existing thread and editing the title because it seems like it would be better to tell the story of your search for a boat in a more holistic and comprehensive way, reviewing the features that you had initially sought in a boat, and how your thinking about those may be evolving (or not on some) as this process proceeds, and perhaps including what specific models you are considering here--rather than in separate threads, which may tend to break what is one narrative up into fragments, about one specific feature or one boat model, etc.

This is the thread where you introduced your criteria for a boat, and since the thread may serve as a reference in the future to what that whole process is like, and since SailFar does keep these threads for that purpose, why don't we try to tell that story (including advice and comments from the rest of us) here?

I'm including the your quote about what I wrote about the Alberg 35, since that applies to any boat of that size, and your search, so should be part of this thread (I believe).

I am interested to learn how things are going with the search in general, whether you may have adjusted some of your criteria as you you use them in the actual marketplace, on the actual boats that are available in your price and geographic range. Also, whether you feel that you are actually ready to get a boat, and if so, what you may be finding are other barriers to getting one, and aspects of your search like this, for instance...   

[Edit: Since the thread on the Tartan 30 seems like just a specific part of your boat search, Joe, I've taken the liberty of merging it with your earlier one, and retitling it "Cyric's Boat Search".]
[Also, I thought that the original title that focused on only the beam of a boat, which was just one of many of your initial criteria, could be made more general to reflect the whole range of features that you were interested in.]

[Jim_ME]

When I posted the ad and photo of the Alberg 35 in the SellFar section it was intended as a post of general interest, especially since Alberg designs are so common among SailFar members, and also the unfortunate aspect of such a good design being subjected to sinking, and on the market as a project as a result.

I didn't intend it as a recommended boat for you Joe, but when I added the offhand comment "If I had to get a boat with about 10 feet of beam, I wouldn't mind too much if it was in the form of an Alberg 35...", it was in part in response to boats of this beam, which was one of your initial criterion in this thread.

Also, my comment "That is a keel..." in reference to the photo of A35's robust full keel, after we had been discussing the Tartan 30's and other boats keels, I may well have blurred the discussion between the A35 and these boats which you were considering the features of in your search.

I believe these are all good discussions to have, but [I/we] may need to clarify whether [we're] speaking in terms of general universal principles, or whether in the context of your search in response to your particular needs in a boat.

[Jim_ME]

I should also probably mention that although I may give an opinion about beam, size, keel type, etc. in general, in response to someone who is asking for advice as part of a process of trying to figure out what he/she may want in a first boat, I probably would not to someone that is not asking.

So when Adam [Godot] joined in this discussion, pointing out that the Tartan 30 performance specifications are very similar to those of his boat, I do want to say that my advice to you [Joe] is not intended as a critique of his choice of boat. Adam was not asking for my opinion, and it is somewhat moot for him since he already has his boat, and his boat seems to be serving him well, as we can see from his blog of the recent trip to Martha's Vineyard.

Yet, since we have gone there to some extent, even indirectly, I do seem to place more stock and weight on the performance specs, especially the Capsize Ratio and the Motion Comfort figures than he does. I do believe that when your boat design has these qualities, it is of benefit in more situations than at the kinds of conditions that one would encounter when rounding Cape Horn.

For example, I can remember taking my Typhoon out and enjoying sailing in the harbor in conditions that would make other boats (of that size or even larger) uncomfortable, and when I would pass some of them heading back in. There were times when I would take people out that were new to sailing and more sensitive to the motions of a sailboat, and I often believed that it was more comfortable for them. (I especially noticed this after selling the Typhoon 19 and taking people out in the my Rhodes Mariner 19.)

Yet I do, of course, understand how someone that is living on a boat in a slip that may charge by the length of the boat, [or for other considerations] might favor the roominess that a wider beam provides over motion comfort in rougher seas, to suit those particular priorities.

Adam has written that he would be okay taking his boat on a voyage across an ocean, and I admire that kind of spirit of adventure, but if I am being candid, I would have to confess that I would be interested to hear how he felt after being out in the kinds of conditions that boats with more favorable performance attributes have are reported to be better suited (or more optimized) for.

So it seems like when this happens we have to sometimes respectfully agree to disagree to some extent, and allow for that the other person's beliefs and priorities may evolve over time, as I expect mine will, as well.

[CapnK]

So, Joe - in 10 months you've looked at a lot of boats and hopefully learned a lot as well from that and in the discussion here. That got me wondering:

Any changes to your "specs" as you wrote them back in March? :)

[CharlieJ]

Interestingly, just the other day there was posted in article in Duckworks Online, that references this exact thing- Buying a boat. He's not discussing long term cruising, but You may still find it of interest-

http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/15/columns/guest/lily/index.htm#.VI5GW8lvaXg

[Jim_ME]

That article looks interesting Charlie, I'll have to read it in depth, but at a quick glance I do see that the writer ended up buying boats considerably smaller than than they initially envisioned.

Many of us have probably already read it, and it is posted elsewhere in these threads, but I like James Baldwin's discussion...
Choosing a small voyaging sailboat
http://atomvoyages.com/planning/good-old-boats-list.html
...including his Good Old Boats List and discussion of the individual designs, which seems to have been expanded since I last read it.

Looking through the list of good boats, I notice how many don't have 10 feet of beam...that don't have 9 feet. (Baldwin himself has circumnavigated twice in a 28'-6" LOA Triton with an 8'-3" beam.) Charlie has cruised thousands of miles in one of these good old boats--one that is about 3 feet shy of 10 feet beam.

So my concern about giving one feature, such as beam, so much weight in your consideration, is that you may exclude so many of these good boats,  limiting your options over something that may not prove to be as important as you initially think.

[Frank]

With talks like these...I think one of the most important factors is for the purchaser to be totally honest with him(her)self as to how they will actually use the boat. Not in their dreams...but in reality. By doing this, mistakes can be avoided. Coastal cruising is a totally different set of needs than offshore. A great offshore design compromises beam and interior room and often shallow draft (if the Keys or Bahamas are planned). Likewise...a great coastal cruiser will compromise comfort and safety offshore. I should add that (in my opinion) going to the Bahamas really isn't worthy of a true "off shore design" and can easily be accomplished in good weather by a well found coastal cruiser. Honesty of actual use will make decisions easier....and the owner happier in the end.  Just my 1 1/2 cents

[Jim_ME]

With talks like these...I think one of the most important factors is for the purchaser to be totally honest with him(her)self as to how they will actually use the boat. Not in their dreams...but in reality.

Frank, I wholeheartedly agree. That is a critical part of the search and decision process.

Part of that honesty is also that when you don't know how you will actually use a boat, to be honest with oneself and tell yourself "I really don't know." Buyers may have hopes and dreams, and we admire and encourage this, since it is what often brings us to sailing and cruising in the first place.

But cruising is usually about building on those dreams with plans and boats that will work in the real world. Working out our finances so they work in reality. I appreciated Adam's statement after returning from cruising and experiencing a kind of withdrawal (to the effect) that he would like to find a way to keep cruising and get his work done at the same time.

Sometimes it is what kind of cruising that you will actually do as a couple, or even a family, and this can pile on even more layers of uncertainty about what actual kind of cruising and how much you may do... This was my experience, but this topic could probably fill a thread of its own, if it hasn't already somewhere.

I agree with what you say Frank about this inverse relationship between these qualities, and we are talking now about between a good coastal boat and a good offshore boat, but it could also be between racing and cruising, "luxury" and simplicity, number of berths vs amount of stowage space, economy vs quality, beauty (lots of teak trim) vs maintenance cost and effort, draft and stability, and probably many other such characteristics.

But it is mostly at the more pure extremes that they are a binary thing...like a switch...mutually exclusive. there are usually a middle ground that is a reasonable blend or compromise of these qualities. So it is when you buy a boat that is out of that middle ground and specialized toward one of these types of sailing that there is the most risk that the boat will be unsuitable for the other type of sailing or cruising than it was optimized for.

[Jim_ME]

So if there is a good chance that one really doesn't know what kind of sailing that he/she/they may be doing, it does make sense to get a boat that is moderate in these many qualities.

And one that is a good deal and reasonably well-regarded on the market so that you can recover the investment and get a boat better suited to what you discover you actually need as you figure out with experience what that is.

I do also believe that you minimize that risk by starting with a modestly sized boat. If you can set it up on a trailer, especially here in the North with our short sailing and long storage seasons, that is a real plus.

If you are uncomfortable making the initial leap of investing in a 30-32 foot boat, especially with very particular qualities that make it more expensive-- there are probably very good reasons for that discomfort. Listen to them. I wish that I had been more reluctant than I was when I bought my 30-foot boat based on what turned out to be wishful thinking about needs of myself and my partner at the time. I believe that is is much better to start modest sized and work up than to overreach and discover that at great financial and emotional expense. Having a white elephant that is difficult and time consuming to resell as it strains your finances and relationship, whether you use it or not, can be be an unforgiving experience.

[CharlieJ]

ABSOLUTELY!!

Better to start a tad on the small size, and then move up (if desired) than to over boat up front

[Frank]

You are right CJ....there are SO many fine boats out there in the 25-28ft range that it certainly makes it easy to start on the smaller side. Jim...I agree with your mention of not burying yourself with a boat until you learn how you will actually use one. Often dreams aren't the reality. Oceans don't have to be crossed for great adventures   ;)

[CharlieJ]

A good while ago, I started a Cross 35 trimaran, building with the dream of the southern islands- Tahiti, etc.

Seven years later I launched the boat. As it turned out, the only cruising I managed was the Florida Keys, and the only ocean sailing she got to do was when my son and I brought her around from Florida. Started the boat in 1976, sold her in 1986.

I've done more cruising, both with two aboard and single hand, in my 25 foot Tehani than I ever managed aboard the tri. The ONLY way I'd want a larger boat would be if I was to become a full time live aboard, with zero shore side facilities.

And the upkeep is SO much less. I get two coats of bottom paint form a gallon on Tehani- the tri took two gallons for two coats.

Tehani is smaller than James Baldwin's Atom or CaptK's Katie, but she suits me just fine- there are HUNDREDS of ports on the US coast, and in the Bahamas, that I've never seen ;D

Picture is of the day we launched the tri, I'm circled- had hair then  :D