Rivets in Mast

[Grime]

I have a sorry roller furled mainsail. Took 2 hours the other day to just un roll it. The sail fills the spool completely. The sail is about 4 feet short of reaching the end of the boom. A larger sail would not work. So in order to have a working main sail this system has to go. It an add on to the mast and riveted up the mast.

If I remove all the rivets would it weaken the mast by not replacing the holes with screws? Would it be on the safe side to put in screws? Its a aluminum mast.

Not only will I have to buy a main sail I'll have to buy halyard and block. It would be best to rent a lift truck to do the removal. 

With everything that is still wrong with Pandora it would be impossible to offer her for sale.

[w00dy]

Isn't the main brand new? Its a shame it can't be made to work, but I'm sure you wouldn't be considering deconstructing it if you hadn't tried everything else already.

Hard to say without seeing some pictures of the rivets/placement, etc. If you are looking for sound advice, it wouldn't hurt to ask the guys over on boatdesign.net. They are a bunch of engineers, designers, and boatbuilders who love questions like this. Let us know how it goes.

[Grime]

James, I sent you a couple photos I'd post them here buy don't have a 3rd party http to upload them to. I'll make a post on the forum you sent me.  Can't use it the way it is now. That work on the photos posted them on my blog and went from there.

[Grime]

Got it figured out.  Now to just get up the mast and remove the junk.

[w00dy]

I'd be curious to see how the whole thing is set up. Is it an aftermarket add on to the original mast? If so, how does the sail fit inside? Is it designed to be used only with roller furling? If so, how does one convert to slug/slides?

[Grime]

James its a aftermarket system. The sail rolls up on what looks like a small pipe like on a regular headsail furl system. So there isn't much room inside for a sail. That's why the sail is so small. It look like it can be used as a hankon with slug/slides. Looking a the photo you can see a dark track this is where the sail furls at. There is another track just to the left that I believe one can use a hank on sail. One problem using this is that there is no halyard for a hank on and the track is somewhat short of reaching the top of the mast. The sail that was in it has a small rope sewn into the luff that goes up a track like a regular roller furling system.

This is about the best I can explain it. Hope it makes since.

Plan is to remove the track and use nutsert with counter sunk screws in the holes.

[Grime]

James its a aftermarket system. The sail rolls up on what looks like a small pipe like on a regular headsail furl system. So there isn't much room inside for a sail. That's why the sail is so small. It look like it can be used as a hankon with slug/slides. Looking a the photo you can see a dark track this is where the sail furls at. There is another track just to the left that I believe one can use a hank on sail. One problem using this is that there is no halyard for a hank on and the track is somewhat short of reaching the top of the mast. The present halyard is jerry rigged and way to short to work. The sail that was in it has a small rope sewn into the luff that goes up a track like a regular roller furling system.

This is about the best I can explain it. Hope it makes since.

[Grime]

The following is comments from another forum board. Being I never got any help here.

Does seem odd that it is SO far off.

Its not only the space, but the number of turns on the worm drum at the bottom (or lack thereof) which would also prevent a wider sail - the whole thing is wrong.

I may be jumping to conclusions but
Could it be off e.g. some sort of Ketch rig -
You say 4' short on a 10' boom?
A 6' boom wouldnt seem to make any sense otherwise?

Possible someone ordered as an aftermarket kit (incorrect) - with the mast level in the yard something like that could be fitted in an afternoon and still have time to down a six pack or two before the pubs opened.



Maybe I should have gone to the pub instead of buying this boat.  Ok no more asking for help. Thanks guys.

[Tim]

David, it is most likely that nobody here had any information to add about the rather "odd to cruising boats" setup.
I do understand your frustration at this point though.

[Jim_ME]

Not having any experience with this sort of mainsail-furling setup in general and your's seeming even more unusual, it seemed best for me to let another who might be familiar with one comment on it.

Perhaps all of us are doing that for the same reason? I guess that (as Tim mentioned) I didn't feel that I had much to add to what James had posted. However, If in the future, you feel that you would like more to comment, as best we can, I would encourage you to ask us to, and I am sure that we would give it a try. We definitely do care about your situation and want to be helpful and encouraging in any way that we can. Sometimes it may take an extra prod from you for us to understand that you may be asking for some assistance with more urgency than we realize.

As I reread the thread, one thing that occurs to me is that if the system (the grooves for the line on the spool) was limited in the amount of sail (say foot length) that it could handle, I might try setting things up so that the sail could fully unfurl, even if it meant that it could not furl the last 4 feet or so (from the clew) into the furler. It should then be possible to create a kind of sail cover to protect that portion that would be left exposed from UV light, etc.

Hope that this helps, and best wishes with your current challenges.

[Edit: The foot of any mainsail is typically some distance shorter than the boom (to provide space for a clew outhaul, etc.), so what may seem like 4 feet may actually be considerably less than that.] [Edit x2:Maybe there would be a way to disconnect the sail outhaul and roll or flake any unfurled mainsail up and stow it against the aft mast/top boom area? Although not ideal, this might be a way to make what you actually have work better for you.]       

[Grime]

Maybe I missed worded my original post.

What I thought I was asking that when I remove this junk system and use screws or rivets in the hole that are left behind. Would this weaken the mast.  And the last photo is why it has to be removed before a hank on main could be used.

I posted photos so everyone could see what I had. Its not about trying to repair or fix it. Its got to go.

James wanted to know how the system worked. That I tried to explain as best I could.

[Jim_ME]

I had not read your posts in depth, but did wonder if there might be some easy/economical way to make what you have work for you, whether that might make it worth reconsidering your approach, since you (I'm assuming) have not removed the furling system yet.

Just a thought that I was offering for you to consider. Of course it is up to you to decide.

[Grime]

I haven't had the time to remove the system. To hot for one. Funds for another on renting a lift truck. There is no one here to pull me up the mast or even a halyard to do so. Also I just realized what I had a day or so before I posted my thread. I was working of trying to figure out a halyard to assist with the removal of the engine when I discovered the problems. In the past I had blamed bird nest in the boom causing it to be hard to roll out. That's not the case.  So I never used the main. I've only been out a couple of times in the last 18 months.  Took 2 hours and using a wench to pull the sail out.

I do appreciate yours and Tim thoughts. Please don't take me wrong.

[Tim]

David, I do realize that you were asking about the necessity of filling the holes, but then the conversation did seem to go towards fixing it maybe.

Since you had not pulled the system off yet, it is hard to tell from here how extensive the weakening of the mast is. And I for one try not to give out advice about what I know not, just because I can.  ;)

I know I have a few holes filled with epoxy that have held up well. 

[Grime]

Tim, I can see where it got confusing when James ask how it worked.  I'll go with rivets and if it holds up good if not Pandora is at it again. I'll sell the boat for what I can get and not look back. 

[Tim]

I am sure it will be fine.

[Norman]

David, I have noticed that Beneteau's with in mast furling mainsails do not furl the whole sail.  All the clew reinforcement layers are left out to keep the sail from bulking up and jamming.  If you unfurl your sail all the way, unwinding some of the furling line to do so, and then furl only as far as the turns on the spiral drum go, you will have the proper set up for a furling main.

The previous owner may well have "overfurled" the sail to get it out of the sun, jamming it in.  When you get the sail fully unfurled, you may find it is larger than you think.  The unit appears to be well designed and sturdy, and I would be inclined to give it a try before removing it, assuming the sail is overfurled now.  There should be about 3 or 4 feet of sail out when furled.

If you wind up with a large ''tail" out, properly furled, you could wrap it around the mast and cover with a piece of tarp to keep the sun off.

I dont think that the roller sail will be usable as a regular sail, as it will lack normal tack and head reinforcements, and unless the hanks are very close, the luff rope will be too weak.  That is normal design for such sails that I have seen.

I have not sailed on an in mast furling boat, so guessing at some of this from what I have seen on boats sailing by and in marina's.  I was originally puzzled by the exposed sail, but now realize that the bulk of the required reinforcement is a problem, and leaving it out the only reasonable solution.

If you remove the hardware, I would fill the holes with thickened epoxy, and have short pieces of electrical tape precut for each.  You fill the hole with a small mound extra, then press the tape on smooth.  The epoxy sticks to the tape and does not sag in leaving a dimple.  Pull the tape off after the epoxy is set, and rub it with a piece of smooth aluminum, and it will be nice and smooth.  That is how I have done my masts and booms on 2 of my boats.  Did without the tape on the first one, not so good.

Best wishes on a satisfactory outcome on all the projects, David.  Hope this makes this one easier.  Certainly, if the sail was overfurled and is a good sail, that will beat removing the furler.

Very good clear pictures, and easy to see how things work.  Beats verbal descriptions a mile.

Norman

[Grime]

Norman,
There is a section at the clew that has a protective cover and very stiff. The sail is stiff and pretty new for the looks of it. I would have to measure it to tell how much is exposed. I folded the sail up and put it in storage. The next time we go home I'll check. I'll also check the luff because I don't remember if its 20' like the other two mainsails that came with the boat. Sailboat data says P is 30'.  The luff rope is very small and light.  I'll do as you suggested and bring the sail back. Try to furl the sail again.

I've not had much luck filling holes with thicken epoxy. Mine seems to run out one way or the other.

I forgot. The reason the spool is wound up is when I removed the sail I hooked up a pendent to keep the halyard down and tight so it doesn't bang. 

[Grime]

I got the sail out of storage. The luff is 28'  The weather protected part at the clew is 2' wide and angles up to a point.  To windy to try and install the sail today. Maybe in the morning.

[Grime]

Got the sail back in the furl. Took 3 times to get it to the photo position. We would get part way and it would jam. I'd unfurl some the start over.  Didn't try to unfurl it. In the photo the protected cover doesn't go up all the way on the exposed area. We stopped before it started getting to hard. This is not a easy system to use and surely not a one man setup. To put a cover over the exposed sail a person would have to stand on the boom or have a ladder. I will measure everything and have Weather Max build me a sail cover.