Mantus: Which size for our boat?

[SV Dayenu]

Hello,
Let me begin with: Thank you to all who've posted here! We've learned a lot!

Also: Please: This is NOT intended as a ?which anchor? thread? Rather which size anchor for our particular boat and cruising plans? I?ve chosen to go with the Mantus and trying to decide between the 25# and 35#.

My wife and I both have a long history of blue water sailing in larger boats when we lived near the ocean, (but now being landlocked in Oregon), have chosen the trailerable Chrysler 26 swing keel (Specs below if you?re not familiar with it.)

Why this boat? We can easily trailer her where we want to spend time cruising. We?re tired of ?being out there? and look forward to coastal ?gunk-holing?. There is a LOT of room inside (sleeps six), has 6? standing headroom, partial wrap around galley, enclosed head (We spent a month on board at a large lake to see if we could really go longer? We were very surprised!) She also has an anchor locker and the 2,000 iron keel stays predominantly outside the hull (low), when up, (the swing keel is surrounded by a permanent keel pocket (mostly outside the hull), with an additional 900# of ballast). She?s sensitive at first but becomes solid at around 15 to 20 degrees heel, is easily motored and sails well.

Chrysler 26:
LOA: 26?
Beam: 8?
Draft: 6? 4? (down), 2? 3? (up)
Displacement: 5,000#
Hull speed: 6.25
Capsize: 1.75
Comfort: 22.95
Stability: 1.10

I?ve read just about every post in every thread on every website (for months!), about anchors, anchoring, etc. and our boat comes ?in between? the Mantus factory posted specs for this anchor. (Yes, I?ve read and ?know? that the larger the anchor (up to a point) the better.) The boat came with a genuine 7.5kg Bruce (20? ? 30?) and a Fortress FX7 (28? ? 32?), and I wish both were one size up!

We want to use the Mantus as our primary anchor each night, believing that we?d rather set a larger, more secure anchor nightly (just in case), rather than store a separate ?storm anchor? ?if? things get ?bad? (I believe ?if? should be ?when?!), We can add our other anchors if we ?have to?, and will keep them (or size them up), for that purpose.

On the Mantus website, their ?conservative? anchor size ratings (Based by them as chosen with ?poor? bottom and ?higher wind? conditions considered), are as follows:

25#
<35knts: 30? ? 35? (<15,000lbs)
<60knts: 20? -30?   (<11,000lbs)
>60kts: 14? 20? (<5,000lbs)

35#
<35kts: 35?-39? (<20,000lbs)
<60kts: 30? -35? (<15,000lbs)
>60kts: 20?30? (<11,000lbs)

We have a long shaft, electric start, 9.9 4-stroke designed for high thrust (large 4-blade prop), low speed and will be using that for setting. I?ve read on several occasions that having ?too large? an anchor could be a problem regarding setting without enough displacement or reverse power and wonder if the 35# falls into that category for us?

We?d like to go with the smaller (25#), anchor, both for ease of handling as well as limited room on the bow (I?ll be building a short HD sprit with roller), as neither size will fit in the locker. BUT we also want to be able to sleep well through the night! (We?re planning on getting some sort of anchor dragging alarm in addition to the one on our GPS, but would like it if that never comes to be needed! LOL!).)

My conservative guestimate is that, fully loaded, we shouldn?t be more than 7,000lbs gross. With the exception of ?possibly? crossing to the Bahamas, we intend to stay close to shore with no over-night passage making. Our super shallow draft should allow us to get into some more ?protected? anchorages when anticipating the weather getting bad.

Questions: (And I know there are NEVER any guarantees with sailing/cruising? Just searching for more input): What are the chances of getting caught in 60kt+ conditions? I personally wish we could go with the 35#, but there?s a part of me that ?thinks? this might be ?overkill?. We will have access to weather reports Both via VHF and laptop (Wi-Fi booster antennae), and checking weather will be a daily if not bi-daily habit.

We will not have a windlass, we?re both 61 years old and will be dealing with the weight of the anchor plus 45? of 5/16? chain being set and pulled by hand frequently. Our cruising plans: San Juan Islands, Sea of Cortez (we?ve done both), and focusing on the ICW, ?possibly? sailing over to the Bahamas, which we have not sailed before.

We?d like opinions/experiences from those with boats close (Up to 30? LOA and similar Displacement), to our own who have done the ICW through the Florida Keys and the Bahamas.

(Sorry if some of this post seems ?headstrong? (?), but for those of you who have also gone through the countless anchor threads (some several hundred posts long), I didn?t want to even get close to a ?which anchor? discussion? Just wanting thoughts and opinions on choosing between the 25# or 35# Mantus for our boat, and our cruising plans.

Thank you so much!
Richard & Tresa

[SV Dayenu]

Woah! Hot sure what happened here... Wrote this in Word and pasted it in... All the apostrophes and dashers turned into question marks after I pressed post! Hope this still makes sense!
Thanks!
Richard & Tresa

[Godot]

I have the Rocna 22 pounder with 90 feet of 1/4" high test chain. A very similar anchor. Bayfield 29, probably around 10,000 pounds. The thing sets well, though I might (might) go up a size before doing serious over the horizon sailing. I think you will be fine with the 25 pound Mantus. Going up to the 35 pounder is going up almost a third. Plus 5/16" chain. Big difference, especially without a windlass (you can have more chain for the weight if you use 1/4" HT with the smaller anchor...just a thought). The bigger anchor I think is overkill; but, depending on your philosophy might be worth it for piece of mind. After all, you never know.

[CharlieJ]

First off- welcome to the insane asylum :)

My boat is fairly close to yours, 5300 pounds dry, and 25 feet. Probably 7500 loaded for cruise

I've done close to 12,000 miles aboard- entire coast, Texas  to Annapolis, and Bahamas. Frankly, I'd think the 35 would be way over kill. I use a 22 pound Bruce knock off-Simpson Lawrence Claw,, and 75 feet of 1/4 hi test chain.

My secondary anchor is a 12 pound Hi tensile Danforth, and my third is a 16 pound folding Northill (used for weedy bottoms) both with a boat length of chain and 200 feet nylon.

And yes, You SHOULD have more than one

I have been in over 60 knots in four occasions (that I remember) since the early 80's (on a different boat). Dragged once , with a CQR- not fun.. Wasn't the fault of the anchor though- lousy holding, and 94 knots . Chesapeake Bay

Unless you have an electric windlass, which I do not, I'd opt for the 25 pounder and a minimum of a boat length chain. More is better. I haul anchor by hand, and I'm 75yrs old :)

[Frank]

Allure is a Compac 27, 6500lbs empty (lots more loaded to cruise for 3mths)
Crossed the stream and have 2 winters in cruising BAHAMAS
NOT a dock queen!
22lb Delta, 50ft chain
Very happy with the size and holding
I solo sail and find it manageable to haul up.
My 2 cents (about all my opinion is worth) is go with the 25lb and 50ft chain on your Chrysler. That is a great anchor and lots for your boat.
Again.....just an opinion.
Have fun and welcome!

PS
Weather reports are easy where you are planning, so the odds of 'getting caught in 65 knots' at anchor without warning is slim....very slim.
PSS
I'll be 60 in a few months and wouldn't want to haul a 35 with chain
PSSS
boat pictures??😄😄😄😄

[CharlieJ]

Should add- both Frank and I single hand (not necessarily by choice)

[SV Dayenu]

Thank you everyone for all the great information, feedback and examples of what you?re using!!! (Your specifics of boat size, weight, anchor type, size and tackle along with  your experiences were absolutely invaluable, helping me to get such a better grasp of reality.)

=D

I had originally thought of using 5/16? chain and 5/8? rode, but those ?original? choices were right alongside my looking at the 35# Mantus? (Paranoid? I?m the type of guy who always turns knives lying on a counter so the pointy end is not facing the edge? LOL!) As a firefighter, I?ve seen so many ?simple? mistakes turn tragic. Anchoring is one of those things that I just don?t want to worry about.)

I had forgotten a thread I read about comparing heavier/shorter chain to lighter/longer chain and the physics explained regarding lifting the longer chain at the bow and how much remained flat on the bottom, extending the time of horizontal pull on the anchor. The extra length on the bottom also provides some elasticity/stretch between anchor and boat as the chain is pulled further up off the bottom in higher winds.

So, here?s what we?ve decided:
We?re going with the 25 pound Mantus.
50? of ?? Hi Test chain 
150? of 8 plait braid, ?? rode.

This will give us ?approximately? 200?. Taking into account 4? from water line to bow, but not from my bow to my cleat and a tie off in the anchor locker, this would allow me a 10:1 scope in almost 20? of water, 7:1 scope in 28? of water and a 5:1 scope in almost 40? of water. That should cover just about anything we plan to encounter (especially with our swing keel!)?

Also, with 50? of chain, it looks like I?ll need to make a nylon snubber bridle for shallower waters. Do they make metal attachment hooks for ?? chain? (I haven?t looked yet.)

I searched the net for a ?set? (Pre-spliced rode and chain), but almost everyone sells their line with such a small amount of chain! Most everyone has a 15? length!

I found one on Ebay that allows the buyer to choose. The above combo I want would be $325! (Yikes!) I could save about $100 if I learn to splice my own? (Funny, because I?m such a knot freak (expert)? Used to rock climb, was a firefighter etc?), yet I never did learn to splice and it?s been on my ?to do? list for years! I also believe that I NEED to learn to do this just in case I need to make repairs (like all the other systems on a boat! LOL!)

Also, I was surprised to find rodes spiced directly to the chain. All the tackle I?ve previously owned had a SS shackle between line and chain (no windlass). Any thoughts on both?

Another question: I had planned on using 3 strand nylon. Strengths seem to be the same. Besides being more supple and easier to stow, are there any other advantages to the 8 plait braid? The 3 strand is cheaper!

I have to do a lot more shopping for prices? There are SO many more modifications I plan for our boat including a composting head and rebuilding the galley to include an Engel fridge/freezer with lots of insulation along with a stern arch to support the solar panels? (Yeah, I know?. Just go now?. But, we ?re not able to go right now AND, we REALLY want comfort!!! (We both have a LOT of experience ?adventure traveling?: Tresa built her own 20? touring canoe and paddled it for 4 months from Montana to the east coast and I rode a mountain bicycle for 7 months, from LA to Belize, up the east coast to Canada, across Canada and then back down the west coast? many years before we ever met and the one thing we want (besides safety), is comfort! LOL! No carrying Ice back and forth, able to keep fresh produce & meat longer (ability to freeze fresh caught fish), no power shortages, no portapottie or holding tank smell, no pump outs, etc?) BTW: I design and build prototypes for a living (20 years +), have a shop with just about every tool you?d ever want and can design and build ANYTHING LOL! (See: www.jareldesign.com) I was featured on a Discovery channel series: ?Million Dollar Genius?? I love my job and what I can build; I can create much quicker than most. The shop is less than 20? from the boat.

We?re planning a shakedown cruise (first time on the ocean with this boat), out of Marina del Rey (My old sailing haunt), in Los Angles this coming summer. Complete any mods left or altered by our experience after that and then hoping to get to the ICW next winter.

Thanks again guys!!! MANY THANKS! I received so much more useful information than I was expecting!

Best,
Richard & Tresa

[CharlieJ]

Questions--

Also, with 50? of chain, it looks like I?ll need to make a nylon snubber bridle for shallower waters. Do they make metal attachment hooks for ?? chain? (I haven?t looked yet.)


Also, I was surprised to find rodes spiced directly to the chain. All the tackle I?ve previously owned had a SS shackle between line and chain (no windlass). Any thoughts on both?

Another question: I had planned on using 3 strand nylon. Strengths seem to be the same. Besides being more supple and easier to stow, are there any other advantages to the 8 plait braid? The 3 strand is cheaper!

Answers-
Several answers. First, Johnson Marine has chain hooks in various sizes. Picture shows mine
Here's a link-

http://www.csjohnson.com/marinecatalog/s00001.htm

As does Defender Industries--

http://www.defender.com/category.jsp?path=-1|2276108&id=2276131

You can also get non galvanized chain hooks in many hardware stores. They rust, but work well


Second,, I have for many years now spliced the rode to the last link in the chain. Using 3 strand, ,you make a very tight back splice and keep another link out of the system. also,, lets the chain/rode connection pass through the deck pipe without snagging

.
And for that reason, ,I always use 3 strand- on my boat, 1/2 inch. When I lived aboard my 35 foot tri,, I used 5/.16' You want to size the rode so it can stretch. Too heavy and that doesn't happen. Just right, and the rode acts like a rubber band, ,cushioning shock loads

[SV Dayenu]

Charlie,
Thank you for the info, the links AND the photo! 3 strand looks a lot less "mysterious" regarding splicing! LOL! I'll go check out your links!

Since ?cruising? has to start somewhere and usually it begins on the hard (long before we reach water), I thought I?d share where we are now and what we?re dealing with.

Dayenu has been covered tightly for over 2 years since we got her, stripped and rebuilt/refinished all the teak (We LOVE teak! LOL!), and did our first shake down at the lake (I forgot about a lot of the items/equipment that we already had! It was almost like Christmas!). I was also surprised to see just how much work we put into her when we first got her.

We had covered her with a HD canvas tarp after our last time out, but there was no way to gain access. With the rain, winds and snow we get up here in Oregon, I wanted to create a protected ?tent?, so that we could go up and still do some work over the winter. We already had a MAJOR storm come through the PNW a couple of weeks ago and our structure held fast!  =D

I crimped the bottom of the vertical pipes (1?), so that they?d stay put when I poured the 60lbs of concrete into each bucket. My studio is behind the forward facing windows and my shop extends behind on the port side. There?s a door to the studio and a double door (breezeway) behind that that allows us to move items between the shop and the boat.
One of the things I want to do is re-build the galley, extending part of it towards the bow (shortening part of the port side seating), adding a fold down counter top extension there, and also extend the counter top across the companion way bulkhead to serve double duty as the first step down into the cabin and support a cutting board/additional counter space. I?ll do this by starting with outlining the refrigerator/freezer compartment along with about 5? of insulation and creating cardboard patterns/templates to see how everything fits (Sink and stove), as well as how it works ergonomically while standing at the galley, trying to gain access to the port side seating and gaining access to the cabin through the companionway. This will be probably be done after I get the Engel components (Although I seem to remember saving drawings of those components), and before I tear anything out.

Just thought I?d share part of our plans? I probably should start a new thread to share our refit journey? Any ideas as to what forum I should post this kind of thread? I?m sure this will be a teaching kind of thread as I?ll be photo-documenting everything as I do with my professional prototype work for clients.

Thanks again to everyone! (Still so much more to research! It?s ?what I do?! LOL!)
Richard

[CharlieJ]

You could either use "Boat Bits" or "Boat Discussion" There is also a Gallery set up for making albums of your pictures- see top of page, on right.

Additionally  on the home page of the site, there is a box with the heading "Small Boat Adventures" where you'll find threads of various people adventures. Many pics are gone now, but the reads are great. As it happens, my story of my ex and myself cruising on Tehani is the first one :)

[SV Dayenu]

Thanks Charlie. I've read almost all of them!!!
Including yours! (Great story and I love you details... I've learned a lot from you!)

When I do, I'll probably start a thread in boat discussions. I'm sure Tresa will add posts there too. She's truly my equal partner and will have a lot to offer!

OK... Back to "real" work here (LOL!) replying to client emails with photos etc...

[Godot]

Plait is not that hard to splice to chain. I did it for my anchor rode, though it took me two tries to get it right. See http://www.yalecordage.com/pdf/brait_to_chain_splice.pdf. Outside of the soft handling and easier stowage, I'm really not certain of any great advantages.

[CharlieJ]

Thanks. An remember- we like pictures :)