our best practices in shared boats.

[lance on cloud nine]

if you think you would ever be interested in sharing an inexpensive boat in a cool location....hash out your ideas here please. anyone?

[Snapdragon]

Its been a while since i've contributed anything worthwhile to the forum, but Charlie's mention of the loss of some of the older voices prompts me to speak up again.  I'm still around, lurking mostly, and looking for that little spark that will get me going.  Perhaps you guys have hit on the very thing that I'm looking for with this "shared usage" thing. 
It strikes me that if we were to consider organizing a boat share sort of arrangement, perhaps it would be prudent to move the discussion of the details of our respective offerings to a location accessible to Sailfar members only.  I love the idea of sharing my boat, but would feel a bit more comfortable discussing it behind the shield of Sailfar's excellent security protocols.

[CharlieJ]

Hey Bruce. How have you and Nancy been doing? Deer still eating her flowers?  :)

Good to hear from you.

[Snapdragon]

Yeah Charlie, those deer still give her something to complain about. Maybe I could talk Owly055 into using them in some of his meat preservation experiments.

[Frank]

Now that IS a great idea!!!

And funny 😄😄

[CharlieJ]

 ;D  ;D  ;D

[lance on cloud nine]

just some random ideas if we did share some simple boats in cool far flung places. we could maybe keep a simple behind the scenes online calendar for a boat. we could maybe take turns writing ourselves in for a week of future use. with the last person in the first round getting first choice of dates in the second round? with unreserved days open to all.
perhaps throw 10 bucks/day of actual use into the kitty for unexpected expense and settle it up from time to time.
we like pictures here! we could post what we are doing, and do quick fixes as a virtual team.
could think ahead for how we plan to decide when to sell, or if we want to keep it longer.
if it went well, we could get another boat in a fun place!
I'm in for a boat in the Bahamas and or North Channel. I'm all ears for other locations or your thoughts.
added>>>per Snapdragons privacy suggestion>>>I once organized a charter in Italy for myself and 5 others on a big Lagoon Cat. We used a private Facebook group page (visible only to us) to post our schedule and to handle shared expenses. It worked real well. We all remained friends and might do it again.

[ralay]

I think there are two types of extreme situations in which co-ownership works well. 

The first is the low budget punk approach in which people limit themselves to investing only what they're willing to lose.  We've lived in some semi-legal shared housing that has been like this.  Everyone pretty much knew that some day or another we'd all get thrown out, so people made what awesomeness they could with used/scrap/dumpstered/thrifted materials.  Likewise, lots of punk folks have built rafts together, floated down the Mississippi and then scrapped or gave them away at the end.  Or got a fiberglass boat for dirt cheap, invested as little as possible in it, taken it on a wild adventure, then left it unattended at anchor somewhere.  I'm not knocking this approach at all, but it takes a certain type of personality to pull it off.  You've got to have a high tolerance for sketchiness and break downs and accept that the shared item will probably never be in as good condition as it might be if members felt confident investing more resources.  Or maybe people still feel good about investing resources as long as they feel like they're saving more than their investing. 

The second is the approach in which people feel confident putting in more money and time than they're willing to lose because there's a lot of structure in place to protect them and their investment.  If you're someone who is a really skilled, safety-minded sailor who's also a great woodworker and mechanic, you might not be thrilled to own a boat with a ham-fisted screw-stripping novice (this was me) who slams the boat into the dock.  You might not feel comfortable sharing a boat without liability or full coverage insurance and/or a corporate structure.  You might want to have an agreement to have work done by licensed contractors, rather than letting any co-owner who thinks they're an electrician spend their maintenance hours filling your boat with undersized wire and wire nuts.  This is also valid and you might be able to share a really nice, well-maintained boat this way, but it'll cost you more and be a lot bigger pain to set up.

Really, I think the important thing is to figure out where you lie on this spectrum and find like minded people.  People from opposing extremes are going to be miserable. 

Regardless of what camp you're in, I think it would be a good idea to have a payment scheme other than a per diem rate.   In my experience, people tend to overestimate the amount of time they'll spend on their boats.  I know plenty of people who have personal boats right in convenient locations that postpone trips because of work or family or because they can't find crew.  It's important that your payment system guarantees that all your expenses will be covered every year regardless of how much the boat is used.  Boats deteriorate and incur expenses all the time, not just in proportion to their use. 

I think the best starting point is for potential co-owners to try to draft an estimate of the total expenses for a year in a certain location.  This will be a fun time for everyone to argue about whether insurance is worth it, what the best bottom paint is, how often standing rigging needs to be changed, what to do with a boat during hurricane season, whether they want to use licensed contractors or ham-fisted amateurs, etc. etc.  If they can come up with a number without killing each other  ;D then, I'd propose everyone divide up the total in proportion to how much access each person wants to the boat.  This'll give everyone a chance to consider that using the boat for X amount of days will cost them Y dollars and decide whether it's worth it and if they can afford it.  Once everyone agrees, I think it's really important that everyone is held to their share, regardless of how much they actually use it.  Otherwise, the project has a feedback loop in which the less the boat is used, the more each day costs, thus further discouraging people.  It would be no fun to be the only person who actually uses the boat and be responsible for 100% of the yearly cost.  My 2 cents.  YMMV.

[lance on cloud nine]

thank you for the great post Ralay. Many good and stimulating thoughts. As I had mentioned, my thread here was to dip my toe in the water. your type of reply is exactly what I hoped for. I realize the on going expense would have to be estimated up front...the per day of use kick in, was just to recognize that some who used the boat more might pay just slightly more. when I think of a shared small boat in the Bahamas, shared expense is only a strong secondary appeal. I still am working, and would not be able to use a boat months at a time...but could maybe go a few weeks at a time. it would be nice that the boat would be checked on from time to time and if more of us could enjoy it, all the better.
I am on a short leash now through Thanksgiving Day, but will be back with more specific thoughts. I sure encourage anyone to chime in.

[ralay]

I think your projected use is probably typical.  So the challenge is to find a way to keep expenses really low or to find a lot of partners.  Maybe Frank could chime in with what it costs him to store and maintain his boat over there. 

I don't think I'd get into another boat share but I think this is an interesting topic and that sharing boats has a lot of the same issues as sharing lots of other things (car share, tool share, etc.)

[Norman]

Ralay hit the overall picture very well, and she understands the politics of the range from anarchist to luxury co ownership styles.

I have been a member of two flying clubs, and the issues in them are much clearer than in boat sharing clubs.

The cost of the boat is divided equally between the members, and when a member wishes to leave, they must sell their share to a new member to get the initial value back, and may negotiate a profit or take a loss according to how fast they want out.  The membership fees continue until the share transferres, and the remaining members may refuse a proposed new member.

First, with an airplane, there are non negotiable items of expenses which are in the monthly dues, regardless of use.
These include Insurance, tie down (slip) fee at home port, annual FAA inspection and required maintenance to keep safe and legal.

Next, non annual expenses are related to wear and tear from time, and are on a basis of use time for an airplane but would need to be on the scheduled proposed use for a boat since rust is going on just as fast when anchored as when sailing or motoring.  On an airplane, these are primarily a function of hours on the engine, so are billed by engine hours.  This would be assessed on the basis of percent share of annual use for each member, but such use is swappable or sellable to other members at assessed cost.  With 12 members, each would have a month of the hypothetical 48 week year, separated into individual weeks a month apart.  You would swap for weeks before or after your ?owned week? to get the length and time you wish to cruise.  If you wanted a cruise longer than your 4 weeks, you just buy from others that are not going this year.
  Probably half the weeks would not be used, but paid for anyway, the cost of being able to say ?I have a sail boat in the Caribbean?

This would be needed to fund for overhaul of engine periodically, replace sails, upgrade to better equipment, replace old worn items such as anchor rode and running rigging, and make routine wear and tear repairs such as bilge pumps that fail.  In the flying club, this rate raised a bit most years, as the experience showed that we were not charging enough to cover actual costs.  Cosmetic items would pile up until the members decided to increase the cost and take care of them.

Third, are the costs directly connected with the actual cruise conducted by a co owner or club member, slip or mooring fees away from home port, fuel, towing fees, launch and recovery fee if stored on the hard, port or cruising fees if taken from its home country (short distance in the Caribbean).  They would be a part of the cost of the cruise, just as food and drink and the cost of transportation getting there are.

As can be seen, a simple co ownership in a desirable location is somewhat costly, and commits you to an outlay, annually, even if you do not go that year.   A shared boat in your local or nearby waters is much more attractive, and would allow evening or weekend sails throughout the year, and since you are local much of the routine maintenance of the boat would be volunteer labor.

You can see why the charter business is so popular, as they may be more expensive in the short run, but you only pay for what you use, and walk away when the cruise is over!

I have been a member of one of the flying clubs for 47 years, but emeritus status the last 5.  Most years, my wife and I flew about 2,000 miles, but some, as much as 5,000.  The club had internal dissension and split once, and was near bankruptcy twice, but is now stronger than ever at 48 years old.

[Frank]

The boat yard at Green Turtle (Exellent yard) is about $200/mth for a 27.

So, if 4 folks used the boat 6-8 weeks each over a year, it would be about:

Haul out/storage $1600 +/-
Insurance.             ???          (With a $5000 boat...maybe just liability?)

So, a very basic 25fter purchased at around $5000 and stored on the hard about half the time would be a $1250 investment and about $5-600/yr to keep there. Not bad to get a few (up to 3) months cruising in!
If kept very simple....everyone would leave the boat spotless for the next folks. Basic maintainance would be shared and not too expensive.
The bigger the boat, more systems, inboards etc etc and all cost go way up!!

[ralay]

Norman, thanks for sharing your experiences with the plane share.  It sounds like they had a good system worked out, though it seems they also underestimated some of the costs.  (A very easy thing to do.)

Frank, if you had 4 folks who used the boat 6-8 weeks a year, I think it could work great.  Might be hard to find folks who are still working who could take that kind of time off, but there's certainly a large pool of retired people.

Does anybody here track their maintenance and incidental boat expenses?  Woody and I keep a spreadsheet of the cost of all our expenses (besides fuel and storage), but it also includes a lot of improvements, so it's hard to generalize from.

[CharlieJ]

Does anybody here track their maintenance and incidental boat expenses? 

Nope- I don't keep receipts either, except things for warranty proof. Boat expenses are simply a fact of life :)

[ralay]

Good strategy.  You're probably happier for it.

[SeaHusky]

I am not in the position to share a boat at this time although I do like the idea of getting to use a small boat in say the Bahamas for a month or so before I decide to sail my own boat there. While the Bahamas may be on one end of the scale of "cool awesome places to sail" I have access to the other end of the scale and I often wish other people could have it to. I'll just ramble for a bit and see what you think.
Firstly Sweden is, for the majority of sailFarers, on the wrong side of the planet so why would you go here instead of Canada for instance? This is what Yachting monthly say about it.
http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/cruising-guides/stockholm-archipelago-sailing-swedens-pocket-wilderness-32654

About boats. Sweden has a lot of small boats. A LOT of small boats. When the working class got the right to a couple of weeks paid summer vacation it coincided with the development of GRP boats. Since we only use them for a few months during summer and the rest of the year let them dry out on land, under cover, they are in remarkably good condition. This means the used boat market is saturated with boats considered obsolete and prices reflect this.
To give an example most here are familiar with, on the Swedish equivalent of Craig's list, Albin Vegas and GRP Folk boats are listed between 20.000 and 60.000 SEK which of course varies with exchange rates so do your own math. The price usually reflects the engine and other equipment rather than the hull since, like I mentioned, most are in good shape.

If you are a young person or couple looking to see the world on a budget, small weekenders such as the 17' "Stortriss" are so common that they are frequently given away for free. Share one or have one each! How is that for a way to spend a summer around Stockholm?


Finally, some people let their boats pay for their own maintenance by renting them by the week.
http://sailon.se/hyra-bat/vara-batar/?lang=en

http://rtc.se/en/rentals-in-sweden/search-boats?option=com_showpix&view=list&Itemid=283&RedirectTo=552&X001_Battyp=segelbat&X013_OMRADE=&from=0&to=0&year=2017

[Frank]

Great info and really fits this thread !!

What a neat way to see another country!!

Thanks