Sheet to Tiller self steering

[Oldrig]

Dan:

I think you're right about the Braine gear (I can't seem to find the passage in my library copy of Bill Belcheer's Wind-Vane Self-Steering, but I'm sure that's where I read it.

Amgine:

Interesting that you had an 18-foot gaff-rigged cat before getting the 25D. Was it a Marshall Sanderling? I'm curious because that was my boat before I got my 25D.

I'm also using surgical tubing and pulleys to the sheets for my sheet-to-tiller setup. When I was sailing with a working jib (100 percent), it worked pretty well when the steering line was attached to the mainsheet. However, once I got a 130 percent genny, I found that it was more important to get feedback from the jibsheet.

To do that, I relied on approach used by "Myrmade" in his Pearson Aerial Page (the first of the two weblinks I posted above). I led the jib sheet across the cockpit, across the leeward winch to the windward winch. Then I tied the control line to the now transverse sheet, using a small vang to adjust it. A pulley on the pushpit translated the fore-and-aft movement into the side-to-side movement needed to guide the tiller.

My biggest problem was finding a way to reduce friction while pivoting the sheet at the leeward winch and bring it across the cockpit. I tried tying a block to the leeward winch, but the sheet was rubbing against my teak coaming. (This is all on the website: The Arial is very similar to a 25D.) I haven't solved the problem yet.

Keep us posted on your success or failure.

--Joe

[AdriftAtSea]

Amgine—

Yes, balancing the sails is important, but many larger boats, once they start to heel a bit generate forces that overwhelm a pure wind vane's ability to compensate for. It also depends heavily on the hull design.  Some are such that they generate a lot of helm at relatively low heel angles.

[newt]

I'm taking my self steering lines which I use aboard my Compac and going to try it on a charter that we are going to this spring. Should be interesting. I never got this much interest when I mentioned tiller to sheet steering before... maybe its my breath mints, or lack thereof.
Mark

[Amgine]

AdriftAtSea: That is, in essence, what balancing the sail plan is - getting the right combination of sail areas and trim for the amount of heel. My gaffer was nearly half as wide as it was long, and while it didn't heel *much* a rather small change in heel had a dramatic affect on the weather helm.

Oldrig: No, actually, it was a Benford cat with a full keel built in cement. Wonderful boat for a strings person, but not as fast as the Sanderling.

My last attempt last year had too much friction in it in, too. This year I plan to use a block on a loupe over the leeward winch, well above the coaming, and the ricer tensioner on the leeward side. I was also thinking of putting a brass half-round at the point on the coaming where it rubs. I did reduce the amount of friction quite a lot by using a small diameter (4mm) 'messenger' line rolling hitched to the sheet, and bringing that across the cockpit then back to the tiller; it rendered through the blocks more easily. Won't work in heavier winds, but friction is less an issue in those situations.

[Oldrig]

Amgine:

I tried using a loop of line around the leeward winch, holding a block for the control line. It didn't work very well. I'm thinking of getting some PVC tubing of the correct size and permanently mounting the block with a large hose clip, the way the fellow with the Ariel website did it.

If done correctly, the PVC tube should slide neatly over the winch and hold the control line above the level of the coaming. If that doesn't work, I'll get some half-round bronze and set up a rub strake, sort of like you described.

Still, since I got that tillerpilot set up, it's been hard for me to bother continuing my sheet-to-tiller experiments.

--Joe

[Amgine]

Heh...

I have a tiller pilot too, but it's soooo annoyingly slow to react! I want to build/purchase a USD windvane just because they are supposed to react so quickly to the wind/waves/accelleration.

I'll experiment with the loupe during April and give you a report. I have an idea on how to keep the block at the top of the winch.

[newt]

oldrig- just got off a very enjoyable day on the Great Salt Lake, and I guess what I liked so much about it was no noise. Didn't use the outboard, didn't use any electricity except for depth finder and checking the weather. I have an autopilot, but I love sheet to tiller for its efficiency. and quietness. I will save the batteries for lights and occasional numbers check.
I would encourage you to keep trying. modify your equipment, and then try again. It will come. I get a kick out of passing another yacht when they look in the cockpit and nobody is there. I then poke my head out from the galley and say hello, just warming up some soup... ;D

[Oldrig]

Newt:

Thanks for the encouragement. I'll try to get back to my experiments (carefully documented in my logbooks). The biggest bugaboo for me has been friction--and the lifting of my tiller, which diverts energy from steering.

Also, things worked really well when I was sailing under main and working jib, but since I got a genny, it's been difficult to get the right source of feedback. Using the jib sheet is a real problem.

I get a kick out of passing another yacht when they look in the cockpit and nobody is there. I then poke my head out from the galley and say hello, just warming up some soup... ;D

BTW, does that qualify as keeping a watch? :D

--Joe

[newt]

"BTW, does that qualify as keeping a watch?"
Oh, I know they are there, I just watch from the ports to get the look on their faces. Out here, traffic comes by about once every two days. Friction-use ball bearing pulleys and cord that does stretch much. Put all the stretch in the surgical tubing. I do not use the jib to steer unless I absolutely have to, I hook the steering from the boom, to a low pulley (keeps the tiller down) and to the tiller, with an adjustable knot from the snap at the boom. Then I appose this with my tubing attached to a low point. I use the base of the pushpit, but if that is too high for your tiller, maybe try a hook on you cockpit lockers. The key is to get the right tension on them, and the right leverage from the boom to the tiller. I will try to PM you a good article about the subject.

[Oldrig]

Newt:
Thanks for the article (I've PM'd you back).

When I was using my main for steering input, I was tying the control line to the sheet with a rolling hitch and running it back to through a block (attached to the pushpit--perhaps too high), to one of two clam cleats I attached to the tiller. The other clam cleat was attached to my various thicknesses of surgical tubing.

Perhaps I should try attaching a block to the boom instead. It's worth a try.

Still, I'm concerned that with the primary drive coming from the genny, that's where I need to get the input.

What kind of a rig are you sailing? When the genny's up on my Cape Dory 25D, it seems as though the main doesn't draw that much.

(No offense meant with the crack about keeping a watch. It was a lame joke. I nearly had a collision once when I was on the coach roof trying to get pictures of my self-steering rig--that was scary.)

--Joe

[newt]

Allright guys, I've had a few requests to put down how I sail without my hand on the tiller. If you will forgive the messy boat, I have a few pics.
This is what I started out with, a tiller tamer. I find it only useful when I am under power, as my Compac just doesn't want to have the tiller control her when she is under way.

[newt]

When going upwind, I attach bungie cords on leeward side, then a line with two clips and two pulleys. I use one pulley for a block effect on the tiller, and the other has a loop which goes over my jibsheet winch (the one not being used- to windward.) The end clips into my boom. You will also notice a taughtline hitch (like what was used in boy scouts) to adjust the length of the line. Very KISS

[newt]

You can see the helmsman is very busy. There is only a light wind blowing, I have used this system however in winds up to 25knts with the same result. Here is a closeup of the attachments to the tiller. I did not want to mark up my tiller, so I got a small block and place the attachments on it, then lashed that to my tiller. You can see by the wavelets behind us that we are sailing. I find this mechanism is more precise than a helmsman, thus I seem to go faster. (or maybe its just more fun since I am down with the crew in the cabin and out of the hot sun...)

[newt]

Going upwind was easy to master and pretty straightforward. I have been doing that for a year now. Going downwind was somewhat tougher. Whenever I set my gear up on the boom it would stay the course for a while and then start turning. Once it started shifting, the boat seemed to develop a mind of its own, completely ruining my fun in the cabin.
I found the secret is to run the control to the sail that is downwind. When you are on a run, that would be the jib. I set the main up to partially blanket the jib, then if my boat gets off course the jib will tighten up and that will pull the tiller back on course. It looks like this: you can see the control line along the edge of the cockpit coming across to the jibsheet at the doghouse. This way is stays out of the way.

[newt]

Finally, I really do apologize for the mess. I had four family members on my little boat, and since it was hot they retreated to the cabin and kicked all garbage and other things outside. It was hot and so I ran around setting up different tacks so I could get the pictures and get back to the marina before they ran out of food and mutinied.
The beauty of this system is that on a downwind run (the hardest point of sail for a traditional wind steerer) the jib controls the tiller! This allows you to run self steering where you would have trouble doing it otherwise.
Disclaimer: I have only started using the jib to tiller steering. It appears to work well, but give me a year or two to try it in all situations.

[maxiSwede]

Thanks for sharing and nice pics too. grog to you  ;D

My current boat came with an Aries wind vane as told in another thread. On my previous boat, a GRP Folkboat (Also n´known as Int'l Folkboat) I did tinker with the concept a bit. I didn't experience the best of results. Probably due to too much friction (didn't have any extra blocks around at the time) and my lack of patience...  8)

It should work well though, I know of at least a couple of Atlantic crossings where they relied on sheet-to tiller steering.

Good luck with it and keep us posted!  ;)

[AdriftAtSea]

Thanks for the photos. :)   BTW, you're not supposed to let them mutiny... ;)

[Oldrig]

Thanks for the pix.

My boat's tiller is below the level of the cockpit coaming, let alone the pushpit, which is why I was getting tiller lifting.

I'm thinking about mounting some folding padeyes on the cockpit lockers this season to give it another try. I'll post photos if it works.

--Joe

[newt]

Joe-
These posts were for you bud! ;D
Before you go and drill some holes, look one more time to see if you can use what you have. I put that block on my tiller, effectively raising it. Could something like that work? I just don't want you to change your boat if you decide you don't like the system.
I consider the system still experimental until I have a couple of thousand miles on it.
Thank you for the compliements Maxi and Adrift. My crew always has mutiny on thier mind...If I run out of food, drink or daylight they let me know.

[Grime]

Thanks newt for taking the time to post the photos and information on your tiller to sheet steering.

My next project after we mount the new home made bimini, this weekend, will be tiller to sheet steering. I'd like to get below and the tiller tamer is not doing the trick. I like your system and also CJ's system.