CapnK and "Katie Marie"

[s/v Faith]

Kurt,

  I was thinking about this while working on Faith today. 

  The area under the cockpit might be used for two purposes.  What if instead of foam, you bought a much larger water bladder then you would ever want to fill up.

You can not put more then a hundred pounds or so here (although the Atomic 4 was much heavier).... but what if you had a great big watter bladder... say like the size of an old water bed.

  Let's say you had the standard drain at the bottom, and fill and vent lines at the top.  Fit a valve to the fill and vent lines, and fill the bladder with the water you wanted to carry here (lets say 20 gallons).  You then inflate the remainder of the bladder to completely fill this space.  That should gain you the last few cubic feet you need to keep the deck above water.

  You would have to make this space friendly to a bladder, but I do not think it would take too much.  Some one might split hairs and talk about the effect of the water moving back and forth (slosh) with the movements of the boat.  I doubt that will be a big issue anyway, since the space is confined by both of the cockpit liners (it will be kept in the area directly under the sole).

  Even if you elect not to do this, you could use the same method on the bladder you are planning to put under the settee's.

  Just a thought...

 

Also;

Adrift said;

Seawater weighs roughly 64 lbs. per cubic foot.

  This would really only matter if you were trying to lift the water above the level of the surrounding water (which would not be the case in a flotation situation).

 

[CapnK]

Good stuff here... much food for thought.

Doug - oh ye of little faith... ;) There is much unsaid in what I have posted, I have put well over a year of thought and research into all this, & it's hard to relate all that thru this medium. I think most of the background discussion was in other threads earlier this year when you weren't around as much.

The whole point of this is to *not* have to carry a 'drift-around-and-hope-to-be-rescued liferaft'. This concept is called "boat as a liferaft". If my boat sinks and I jump into a rubber tube raft, I have only that raft and whatever is in the ditch bag to subsist upon until Fate determines whether I get rescued or die a long, slow death adrift. I will not be carrying an EPIRB - I would not ask anyone to risk their life because of *my* choices.

OTOH, if I can construct my boat so that it will only sink *some*, then I have everything on/in the boat to help me to survive, repair the boat to some level of functionality, and hopefully get myself to land in a manner not at the whim of wind or current.

More info on the thinking behind this: see Adrift.

Some of your points: The solid foam areas aren't that large, they are in the very V parts of the hull, basically small, unusable space. Prior to foam going into any area which will be under long-term hydrostatic pressure, I will coat well that area of the hull with epoxy resin, since it is the most impermeable of resins. Foam then put into these areas will be all-epoxy coated on all sides. I will use polyester only on the parts that aren't subject to osmosis.

There won't be much wood down where any water would lie inside the boat (won't be much wood in the boat, period - maybe just veneers for appearance), and any that is will be sealed with epoxy. AFA a bilge - the current bilge in this boat will hold 5 gallons, easily - probably more like 10+. That is too much. In the after part of the bilge area, I will have one narrow deep sump, with an electric pump and float switch installed. Any trivial amounts of water will go there and be pumped over. More than that amount of water in my boat? I want to see it *right away*, so I can determine where and why it is there, and take the steps ASAP to see that it stops inviting itself in. Why hide 10 gallons of water below the sole instead of 1 gallon? That doesn't make sense to me.

Foam already in place cannot fail, there is nothing to break that would keep it from serving their intended purpose. Sealable lockers are, in essence, rigid, pre-inflated bags. Collapsible airbags can have/develop holes, must be secured to the bottom of the boat well enough to support it w/out ripping the deck off, they would limit your ability to get around the boat interior and may even block you from the area needing repair. Then there are air tanks and hoses, systems and components which can leak or just plain fail. Foam is KISS. BTW - I mentioned I have thought long and researched this well: if I were going with bags, I would go with the Aussie Turtle line, they seem like the best (that's not the proper name for them, they are in another thread on the board somewhere that I posted about them).

The umbrella plug thing was just a humorous afterthought, I have not given them much consideration beyond that post. :)

Adrift - yep, something would have to poke *really* far into the boat to make it to the cabin in most places. There will be some areas with 'thinner skin', but not many, and those are mostly aft of the wide point of the hull. Access to almost all lockers will be through the top, gasketed lid, which will be able to be dogged down tight against the gasket with a quick fastener and hand tool (same fastener for all lids throughout the boat, fasteners and tool to insert them stay in a bag by the companionway).

AFA amount of buoyancy - I will strive for an excess of that needed to float decks awash when the boat is loaded for cruising. :) I am hoping to have the lions share of that be simple foam, and let the watertight locker space push me well over what is needed.

Craig - I was only planning on foam in the far after part that is so hard to get to. I was planning on the forward area being stowage, but maybe a waterbed bladder that could be partly filled with "emergency" (or "last resort') water for long crossings... Hmm, good thought.

BTW - I need to talk with you about sink and cockpit drain design, an Idea you might like/be able to use on Faith...

[s/v Faith]

BTW - I need to talk with you about sink and cockpit drain design, an Idea you might like/be able to use on Faith...

  Timely.  Was talking about this yesterday.  I have bought a new marlon seacock for my haulout planned for 2 weeks from now........ 

  Was thinking about running just the sink drain to the seacock, and running the draiuns aft ala Ebb....  I really appreciate his desire to have no holes below the static waterline and would like to reduce the number myself.

[Dougcan]

I dunno, for some reasons I am still uncomfortable with this concept, but I understand what you are trying to do though so I will support your efforts here.

I looked at http://www.pearsonariel.org/document/Fact1.htm and it gives the displacement of the Ariel at 5120# which translate to 80CF of air needed to keep the boat on the surface of the water.  A little more is needed to get it high enough so you can bail the boat out once the "leak" is repaired. And of course you have to account for the "cargo" you're carrying!

A note on the foam, what kind of foam are you planning to use?  I ask because the most common foam people seem to think of are the "foam in a can", not realizing the foam it produce are of the "open cell" kind, meaning it is easily water logged (like a sponge).  So a lot of care is needed here.  I realize you intend to close off the foamed areas, but still...  Probably better to use a "closed cell" foam, like Styrofoam.  Styrofoam has it's own set of problems though.

Another thing to realize is that one CF of foam is not equal to one CF of air, so while one CF of air can support 64# in salt water, one CF of foam will not.  The exact amount needed varies depending on the type of foam used.  So you need to add the weight of the foam to the flotation calculations.  And yes, foams, even of the same type, comes in different weights.

Lot more thinking and research needed here (by me mainly) although I realize you have already put a lot of thought and research into this.

I tried to google this, but there's too much information to wade though in the few minutes needed on this post.

I seems to recall someone already tried "the boat as a life raft" concept a few years ago to do the same thing you are doing, but I'm not able to find it via google (granted, I only spend about fifteen minutes looking).  Not sure what the end result was though.

I'll follow this with interest!  ;D

[Cmdr Pete]

Don't laugh, but I've been thinking of filling the keel void with a slurry of foam and ping pong balls.

You can get ping pong balls on ebay for $15  a gross.

You may resume laughing now.

[Auspicious]

Don't laugh, but I've been thinking of filling the keel void with a slurry of foam and ping pong balls.

No laughing here.

When I was in school (Webb Institute, Bachelors of Science Naval Architecture & Marine Engineering '82), I recall an exercise calculating the strength of ping pong balls and the bouyant efficiency. IIRC, some salvors pump ping pong balls through large diameter hose to raise sunken boats and ships.

[AdriftAtSea]

I wouldn't doubt that ping pong balls are a good way of adding buoyancy that can conform to strange shapes fairly well. The only disadvantage of ping pong balls, that I can see, is that many foams are more resilient to crushing damage and will rebound more successfully than would ping pong balls.

[Fortis]

there is always the inflatable plug. Based on something used by plumbers that need to seal off lines running form the main to the house BEFORE the meter tap.
The plug looks like a deflated condom of VERY heavy armoured rubber (so not exactly ultra thin for full sensation), there is a hose and a pump. The thing gets shoved up a pipe Or allowed to flow down) and then inflated. It forms a very tight seal and has the strength to be inlfated in a hole made of shattered glass.

I often thought the larger of the two (for 3inch to 7inch pipes) might be a usefull thing to throw into the emergency bag of the boat. It has the advantage over traditional wooden plugs that you can manuevre it into some tight spaces and angles before inflating, and once inflated it holds on form both the inside and outside of the hull.

Sadly they are a little pricey (about $250-400 for the size I mentioned with variations based on pumps or co2 bottle).


If I had to do a boat-float idea, I would probably slit the centre of the inflatable dinghy floor, swim under the keel and thread the keel (yay for fin keels) through the slit and then tie on some line and inflate the dinghy! At least it is lift in the best place for it.

failing that, about four water-bed mattresses stored away small and then inlfated in a great hurry with the powered air blower we use on the dinghy and the reverse cycle 12volt vaccuum cleaner that lives on board, just inflated any old way inside the centre area of the vabin seem like a good notion.

I would not worry much about earlier comments of the boat would float vertically nose down like the titanic or something....The lead in the keel will do wonders for which bits point downwards...as long as the keel isn't what has fallen off and left a big hole. (A barnd new superyacht called Excaliber was lost that way off the coast of Australia a few years ago. Turns out the stainless steel super alloy that formed the foil of the keel got a tiny little almost impossible to see graze form an angle grinder not running stainless cutting disks during construction. Less then 6 months later the foil failed in that scatch line. I do not think I want a boat that tender...however super it might be.



Alex.

[AllAboutMe]

Kurt,
On the Atom website they go into detail about building watertight bulkheads and lockers. Probably not alot more money than trying to add secondary flotation. Just more labor. http://www.atomvoyages.com/projects/UnsinkableBoat.htm

[CapnK]

I'll be building what I've been jokingly referring to as a "Water Closet" - a combination tiny head area (Porta Potti), hanging wet locker, and 'utility room' of sorts, next to the companionway. Here's a visual to give you an idea of what I am planning, more or less (stunningly rendered, isn't it? ;) ). I'll be using the flair in the wall (at the base of the companionway opening) as a high step for when I don't want to pull out the bottom hatchboard, and it also allows for a little more shoulder room when seated on the PP. Forward of the WC will be the galley. This isn't by any stretch the final design, but it is helping me to see what to do, and what it'll look like. :)

[s/v Faith]

Cool,

  I really like the idea of having the locker near the companionway to keep from dragging wet foul wx gear all over.  I really like the rounded look, and you might as well use this space where you have full standing head room, rather then trying to cram it in forward like the other Alberg boats.

  I know your vision does not really include the use of the head underway, so the fact that I would not want to use it on a starboard tack really does not matter.....

  You really have some great ideas, I can't wait to see her when she is 'finished'*

  Sure glad your doing the radical stuff on the inside...  ;D



*_{Mythical state that boats in reality never reach.}

[Lost Sole]

 Sarah S/V the Edge  is still alive and well.  I just got a PH Call from her.

She just Got back from Thieland.

[CapnK]

The end is near!

The end of an extended stay at dockside for me and Katie... ;D

Went to the welders today, he will have my interior bulkhead-replacing custom aluminum tubing mast support finished next week. WOOT! It's the one piece I have been needing in order to get moving on the interior, and in order to put the spar back up and sail again...

It's being made of 1 & 7/8" tubing, with a wall thickness of ~5/32". It is replacing wooden beams of white oak, and so will be much stronger and stiffer. I'll post pics when I get it, with more details.

The new exterior chainplate material goes off to the shop tomorrow. I have decided to have someone who is set up for it do the cutting and drilling. The material is the same stock as what originally came on the Ariels (1.25" x 0.187"), but all the chainplates are longer, and they will be mounted externally on the hull, as opposed to thru-deck and to plywood knees. Additionally, I am going to a split-backstay arrangement, vs the stock single backstay. Below are a couple pics of the chainplate stock, marked for cutting and drilling. The uppers are 18" long, the lowers and backstay plates 12". There is one of the original chainplates in the pic for scale/comparison; IIRC, they were 8-9" long.

[CapnK]

 ;D ;D ;D ;D

Gotta catch Frank and Adam!

;D ;D ;D ;D

Tubing is 1 & 7/8" OD thick wall. Flat parts are 1/4" thick. 3" wide piece of the flat stock across the top. Going to put 1-2" transverse ribs just fore and aft of it on the overhead. The lower 2' of the verticals are thru-bolted to the main bulkhead. Outboard of the ends will be knee-like structures to serve as stiffeners for the cabin trunk and sidedecks in that area. Think I'll wind up having a wide-based tabernacle built by the same guy, that will be thru-bolted outside of the ribs, base plate around 9"x12-20". It should be really strong, and I won't have added either too much weight at all, considering the amount of white oak, plywood, and bronze screws I've removed. ;)

[Frank]

Very nice.....totally open, it will seem much larger below and ventilation will seem better.Pretty fancy engineering....couldn't of been too hung over that day :o  Must be getting excited to see an idea come to life...keep at it.

[Tim]

....couldn't of been too hung over that day :o 

Maybe CapnK. just bumped his head one too many times ;)

Looks great, you guys are really making me feel bad. Hopefully one more week of getting things settled and I can get to work on a regular basis.

[sailorflo]

Nice touch capt k

[Shipscarver]

You engineering types amaze me!

BTW - any word of late from, Sarah, S/V the Edge ?

[CapnK]

It came out of nowhere. Winds were sustained at 40 or better, gusts to 60, there were honest 4+ foot waves running thru the marina. I did what I could, which wasn't much, then after a while said The Prayer:

Lord, I ain't much of a praying man, and You know that, but if it'd be yer will, I'd sure appreciate it if this mess would lay down some, and soon...

Then I packed up what I could grab that would be essential to making some money to start over, and got off the boat.

Somebody heard me, and it laid down shortly thereafter, and Katie still floats. The end of the dock is broken into 3 pieces, I'll get pics later.

It was pretty much a bad experience from start to finish, but once again I was amazed at how well Katie took the waves on her stern quarter in some nasty, nasty conditions, gettin thrown up and down 4-5 feet at a time, snatched back and forth by the dock, and she still didn't ship any water over the stern.

darn this boat is a good 'un. I'm sure glad she's still here. :)

[Mario G]

I'm happy your still here also, I've been there I know how hard it is to abandon ship. Its been shown time and time again what these boats can endure, so getting yourself to a safe place and not being tossed around the inside is the best thing. The boat can be replaced you can't.