Leading Lines Aft

[AdriftAtSea]

I'm about to start on a project to lead lines aft from the mast.  The lines I'm planning on leading back are:

1)  Main Halyard
2)  Topping lift
3)  Outhaul
4)  Spinnaker Halyard
5)  Reef 1 Tack Line
6)  Reef 1 Clew Line
7)  Reef 2 Tack Line
8)  Reef 2 Clew Line

I don't see a need to run the jib halyard back, since it is on a roller furling unit.

I'm using blocks at the base of the mast and three deck line organizers, a four line for the reefing lines, and two two-line units for the halyards, topping lift and outhaul. 

I plan on running the lines back to a new winch I am adding to the cabintop, just forward of the solar ventilator I put in earlier this year, to the port side of the companionway. 

I wanted to get feedback from the people here on what has worked for them, with respect to leading lines aft to the cockpit, and the pros and cons they've found about doing it or not doing it.  Also, I wanted to hear if any one has any thoughts on a single line reefing setup versus a double line reefing setup.   I think the double line reefing setup will be slightly faster and yields a more secure reef.

Dan

[s/v Faith]

I like the idea of this, but have not used a system that actually wored as intended.

  The resistance from turrning blocks cause halyards to need a second line (downhaul) attached to sails to function properly.  Many tasks will still require you to go to the base of the mast, but you will have the additional problem of then moving back and forth to the cockpit to work the lines.

The idea is a good one, but IMHO often does not work out as well as was intended.

[AdriftAtSea]

One of my main reasons for doing this is to allow me to control the mainsail shape and to reef it from the cockpit, since I am often sailing single-handed. 

In the case of reefing, the tack reefing line will act as a downhaul fairly well, even in a single-line reefing system.  However, I am leaning towards a double-line reefing system as I feel it will be a bit more secure, a bit faster, and has less friction in the system, so should work more smoothly.

[CharlieJ]

I much prefer the two line setup over the single line one. I feel it is simpler, quicker and causes less damage to the sail.

If you will do a google on "two line reefing" you'll find several articles on it. Seems to be the preferred method for many people.

Of course I don't see any need to lead lines aft myself. I much prefer to just heave to on starboard tack, go to the mast and turn in the reef, then come out of the "heave to" and begin sailing again. I put all my reefing controls, and main halyard always on the starboard side of the mast.

[oded kishony]

I've been giving a lot of thought to leading lines aft. I have all the equipment for leading the reefing line and the halyard on my boat but I've been hesitating.

Frankly, I don't see the point of adding the topping lift and outhaul,  since those things are done at the end of the boom and would add a lot of clutter to the deck.

I think it's important to keep the reefing system very reliable and simple because reefing occurs at a time of increasing instability, with gusting winds and rising waves. Not a good time to discover your lines have gotten tangled.

[AdriftAtSea]

Oded-

I've found that reefing is simplified if you tighten up on the topping lift a bit, as the reefing line doesn't have to pull the boom up to the reefing cringle.

As for the outhaul, having it led back to the cockpit means that I can more easily control it, and use it to flatten the main, especially in heavier air.  Not completely necessary, but since I have the room to do so relatively easily, I figured I might as well.

I agree that keeping the reefing system as reliable as possible is key.

CharlieJ-

Why do you feel a single line reefing setup causes more damage to the sails?  This is the first time I've heard that as an argument for two-line reefing systems. 

One reason i've chosen to lead the lines aft is my particular boat doesn't heave to very well, especially if you're messing about with the mainsail.  :D  Part of this may be just a lack of experience on my part in heaving to under various conditions, but unlike many of the small boats here, I do not have a full keel, so the steering on my boat is a bit more sensitive.

[Captain Smollett]

Why do you feel a single line reefing setup causes more damage to the sails?  This is the first time I've heard that as an argument for two-line reefing systems. 

Could it be chafe?

[AdriftAtSea]

I don't think so... the main difference between a single-line reefing system and a double line reefing system is that there is one line that serves both as the tack cringle and clew cringle hold down.  However, the bulk of the run between the two positions is along the boom or inside the boom, so there shouldn't be any additional chafe against sails AFAICT.

In a single line system it goes from the boom, up to the clew cringle, down to a block at the end of the boom, along or inside the boom—forward to another block at the forward end of the boom, up to the tack cringle and then down to the block on the mast foot, to a deck organizer and then to a line clutch.

In a double line system there is one line that runs from the boom, up to the clew cringle, down to a block at the end of the boom, along or inside the boom—forward to a block and then down to a block at the mast foot, to a deck organizer, and then to the line clutch.  The second line goes from the boom, up to the tack cringle, down to the block at the mast foot, to a deck organizer and to a line clutch. 

In theory, the double line system is faster, since you have to pull less line through and you can tighten both the tack and clew portions of the reef independently of the other.  It is also a bit more secure in that if one of the line breaks, you don't lose both ends of the reef...whether this is good or not is a different story, but I think it is more secure, as there is less load on each line. 

I don't see how there is any difference in the chafe or wear on the sail between the two systems.

[jdsackett]

my lines are ran aft. jib, main halyards. topping lift and spare halyard. sv faith has a point. i roll my mainsail, so have to rig it on the mast. when you do that, you have a lot of loose line on the deck. not a problem in my case, cuz i rig it in the slip and hoist when i get out on the water. i like the setup. have a downhaul on the jib and can douse it in about 5 seconds. to reef the main i have a reef hook at the front of the boom. drop the sail, hook it and everything else can do from the cockpit. course im on a lake and not the ocean, so it may be different. i singlehand a lot and it works for me. what the heck, try it, you dont like it, take it off. regards, j.d.

[CharlieJ]

no- it's not chafe- it's point loading on the grommets and sail slugs or slides.

With the two line system, you slack the mainsheet SLIGHTLY. drop the halyard, haul the tack tight, then slack the main sheet and haul the boom UP to the sail and reharden the mainsheet. You can also take up a bit on the topping lift but I leave mine alone- it's set so it doesn't change either way.

I JUST found my bookmarked article on reefing from Pineapple sails- they explain it far better than I- go to this site, then scroll down to the heading "single line reefing"

http://www.sailmaker.com/articles/reefing.htm

[oded kishony]

AdriftAtSea writes:

>One reason i've chosen to lead the lines aft is my particular boat doesn't heave to very well, especially if you're messing about with the mainsail.<

Do you backwind the jib? Do you have problems heaving to with jib and/or jenny backwinded? Is you tiller secured? What does your boat do when it's heaved to?

Oded

[AdriftAtSea]

Oded- 

My boat is a centerboard trimaran, and she is skittish... :D 

Yes, I do back the genoa, but she's still quite skittish.  It may be that I just need to get more practice with trying to heave to under sail.  The tiller is held in place via an autopilot that is in standby mode..and I've tried it in various positions...with some success..  I can get her to heave to some of the time... I guess practice makes perfect.  :D 

The real problem seems to be as soon as I start altering the sail plan, the balance shifts, and she will start to bear off, and then things start to get interesting.   

CharlieJ-

Thanks for the link, I'll take a look at what they say. I've heard good things about the folks over at Pineapple sails.  I do prefer the two-line setup personally, even if it takes a bit more hardware to setup, and that is what I'm planning on installing.

Ahh.. I see...it has to do with the inability of a single line system to apply tension to the reefing tack cringle before applying tension to the reefing clew cringle, and possibly damaging the sail in the process.  I hadn't thought of that as a problem, but it does make a lot of sense.

[Fortis]

I have lead absolutely all the lines aft, including the "spare" halyards.
For the stuff that isn't much used, it does not clutter the cockpit overmutch as most of the rope is up the mast and there is just a half meter of end coming in.

Of all the lines I have found that leading the cunningham back to the cockpit has been the most surprisingly usefull modifications. Between the main halayrd, outhaul and cunningham, I can shape the main to pretty much anything without having to even let go of the mainsheet in my hand. (unless it is to grab a winch handle).

I absolutely support the idea of leading the topping lift back to the cockpit, both for making reefing easier and as an emergency backup for the main halyard.

The topping lift stays ON the end of the boom when we are sailing, and if it ever comes to needing to perform a MOB retrieval under circumstances that do not just allow dropping the ladder and helping them on board, I know that tightening up the topping lift, dropping the main (lazy jacks make it fast and easy), and hooking a 3:1 hoist on the end of the boom can all be done quickly and easily by one person. The hoist can then be used to raise someone out of the water clear of all lifelines and such, and the boom can then be swung inboard.

Since this is the system we developed for what to do if I am the one that goes overboard and lose too much strength (or am knocked unconcious) to clamber back up and Margaret is the one that needs to get me back into the boat....I AM ALL FOR THE SLIGHT REDUNDENCY IN ROPES!!!


Like I have mentioned earlier, once you have had a serious MOB situation, it gives you pause to think and analyse the what and hows of "if there is a next time"...we did not manage to ignore that a factor of the first time round was pure luck.

I also have a Furlex on the headsail, but have the halyard coming back to the cockpit, as easing the tension when poled out and going down wind adds a heap of speed (we found, in our case).


Alex.

[AdriftAtSea]

Alex-

MOB isn't as much of an issue for me and the Pretty Gee.  She's 18' wide after all and doesn't heel almost at all...  I also have pretty easy access to get someone back aboard, either via the amas or the stern swim ladder.  The aft end of the amas have only about a foot of freeboard. If I'm tethered to the jackline, i can generally brute force anyone that sails with me back aboard.  Most of my crew is bigger than I am...so they'd probably be able to yank me back aboard as well.

However, I may change the mainsheet to a snap shackle setup instead of the current clevis pin setup, as the six-to-one purchase would be really useful for pulling a MOB back aboard.  :D  Thanks for the idea Alex.

I do want the ability to shape the mainsail from the cockpit, as well as reef it quickly.  I don't yet have a cunningham on the Pretty Gee, but will probably add on. 

I leave the topping lift attached to the aft end of the boom as well, even when we're sailing.

I have a Furlex for the 150% genny and hadn't thought about running the halyard back, but might after hearing what you've said.  Unfortunately, that means I need to get another line clutch.  But I would have needed another one for the cunningham in any case. :D

I generally don't sail DDW, as the Pretty Gee does much better on a broad reach, and is fast enough on a broad reach to make up the extra distance travelled and then some in the same time a DDW run would take.

Dan

[CapnK]

Welcome aboard, jdsackett! :)

Good discussion, this. Enjoying the responses! Grog for all! ;D

[Captain Smollett]

MOB isn't as much of an issue for me and the Pretty Gee.  She's 18' wide after all and doesn't heel almost at all... 

Container Ships and Destroyers are wider yet, but sometimes have crew go overboard.  Please be careful tempting fate.

I also have pretty easy access to get someone back aboard, either via the amas or the stern swim ladder.  The aft end of the amas have only about a foot of freeboard. If I'm tethered to the jackline, i can generally brute force anyone that sails with me back aboard.  Most of my crew is bigger than I am...so they'd probably be able to yank me back aboard as well.

Have you actually DONE this?  In a seaway?  While you yourself was already exhausted from standing watch?

Sorry.  I seriously don't mean to flame.  It's just that when I see "brute force" in this type of context the first thing I think is "maybe so, in the best of circumstances.  What about in the real world?"

My boat has 18" of freeboard at the stern...and there is NO WAY I could brute force anyone (okay, maybe my 35 lb 4 year old daughter) back aboard.  But then again, I *AM* a major weakling....

[AdriftAtSea]

Capn Smollet-

I don't believe in tempting the fates, and have harnesses and jacklines on the boat, on the main hull, and the tethers don't allow one to fall overboard either ama.  If you actually tried, you might be able to fall off the bow, and end up between the ama and the main hull...but that's about it.  The tether I use has both a 1-meter and a 2-meter leg on it, and generally, as short as I am, I use the 1-meter leg.

I have hauled in a swimmer, but it wasn't a MOB, but an intentional swim—some dogs don't understand swim platforms, and Checkers was an 100 lb. lab.  Also, the freeboard at the stern is almost nothing, since the stern is actually a swim platform, with a decent, if narrow swim ladder that extends down into the water. 

As I said above, I plan on modifying the mainsheet, so that it can be used to haul someone aboard in the case of a MOB.  It is a six-to-one tackle...so brute force won't be necessary, unless the person is unusually large. 

I'm an ex-wrestler, ex-cyclist, and former rock climber, and even though I'm only 5' 4", I weigh in at over 170 lbs.  and can stack the back machine at the spa as my workout weight.  :D

This is actually a problem at times, since I have an 18" neck and wear a 44" suit... so my foul weather gear has to be tailored to fit me...The drysuit I bought earlier this year that fits my shoulders and neck is designed for someone over six feet tall.  I looked like a bright red sharpei the first time I put it on.

[Cmdr Pete]

Dan,

Do you have any pictures of your deck showing the existing layout? Number of winches on the mast? Are the lines internal on the boom? What is at the base of the mast?

Last winter I went from this:



To this:



It's not ideal, since I didn't have alot of room to work with. Have to finish the job this winter. I dont mind drilling into the deck so much, but drilling the mast always makes me hesitate

[castawaysailor]

Wow, Cmdr Pete; you changed from a health guy in a red jacket to a beautiful woman in one winter; I am impressed. ;D

Oh, I looked again at the second pic and see you also; ...

[AdriftAtSea]

All of the existing lines are internal to the mast and boom.  The tack cringle reefing lines don't currently exist, and would be external to the boom. 

There are two Lewmar #8 winches on the mast, one on each side.  There isn't a whole lot at the base of the mast, but the mast step has a collar that I should be able to attach the turning blocks to.

The cabin top has outboard genoa winches, similar to what is pictured in your photos, but I do have a bit more space next to the companionway, on the port side, enough space to install a third winch. BTW, the companionway on my boat isn't centered, it is offset slightly to starboard. 
 
I plan on leading the port side lines (Spinnaker halyard and topping lift I believe),  and the boom-related lines—outhaul and reefing—to the third winch.  The main halyard will be probably be led to the starboard side genoa sheet winch.