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Ok, this is the disclaimer... this is a rant.

  I believe that one of the biggest reasons people never do what they want in life has to do with the fact that the majority of people are slaves to their debt.

  So often I hear discussions of cruising budjets.... what does it cost to go?

  After exhaustive reading of these discussions on other forums.... I will tell you, it costs EXACTLY as much as you are willing to spend.

  SO many go through this life salves.  They do not realize that anything you pay for that you do not have expendable funds for enslaves you.

  What is this nut going on about?  I will tell you.  I like clear radio reception as much as the next guy, but the idea that I would pay $120 a year for the rest of my life SICKENS me....   

I see debt like a hole in the boat.  You may decide it is worth it to make take on the debt, but know that you are GOING to have to SPEND your time bailing. 

  I do not enjoy bailing.

I want to set up my bilge pumps to deal with the ingress of water, and will limit it where ever possible.

  What does this mean?

  I have never in my life owned a new car.  I have never made a car payment.  I don't believe you have to.

  My boat is paid for... as are all the things I have put on her.  I do have some 'expenses' that I pay, like insurance (which I will minimize) and other things I evaluate as Worth the drain on my finances (de-watering ability).

  I believe that the world.... and the market want to make you believe that slavery is OK... even that you have to submit to it.

  Things like fashon, trends, socialital & family expectations, and the 'lust of the eye' (desire for all man sees) serve to keep man bound to grindstone.

  We feel grateful for 'vacation' and 'time off'... when did this become someone else's time anyway>>??????

 



(Corrected title spelling. :D)

Continued...

  Some things that enslave....

Intrest.  Any usury paid on debt is a killer.  Debt is BAD BAD BAD.... People buy homes as investments and do not worry about paying the principal.  Might work for some folks (who sell off short term) but bounds others to slavery for the long term..... when did paying a mortgage for 1/3 of a human life span become acceptable?????

  Buy what you can afford.  And do not add %7+ to the debt by paying some Realtor to do simple tasks you can learn to do yourself. 

===> Realtors and brokers are not your friends!<===

Just as boat brokers are not your friend... they add 10%+ to the transaction.

  Why are you buying a new car???  The same car will be worth much less in 3 years... and have most of it's life remaining.

  Cable television???? Why pay for 170 channels when you can only watch one at at time???

  Look at your checkbook, and credit card statement
What are you paying for, and is it worth your freedom?

  What is your life worth???

Bravo...great rant!!  Thoreau wrote that "the TRUE cost of a purchase is the amount of 'life' you give up to get it"

 :'(

brings a tear of joy to my eye, when someone gets it like that.  :'(

it's a beautiful thing.  :'(

Grog for Craig! (no charge)

I can't understand all the ads that say "Buy now--pay nothing for a year or two"

If you can't afford it now, what makes you think you're going to get richer?

Unfortunately, I have to keep working. I need to outfit my boat with about 500 items from the West Marine catalog. They're all guaranteed to save my life.

PLEASE take this as intended...NOT politically !!  It appears to an 'outsider looking in' that many things seem set-up to  stir the economy in the USA....but in the process create debt. ' Disclaimer'..this is based on info at BS sessions at marinas I've been at while in Florida. I have been told that your home morgage is tax deductable...that a 'second home' or 'seasonal home' morgage is tax deductable and that a boat quilifies if it has living quarters.If this IS fact...it would sure entice people to 'BUY' and that is a good thing as it creates jobs and fuels the economy. The down side is it makes borrowing easier to swallow,legitamizes debt and in the end ya kinda have a 'house of cards' so to speak. To this simpleminded ole guy...debt is not good...banks are making money on your back.People tend to over borrow which creates stress on relationships and families.While I like a tax deduction as much as anyone...and being in the home building business for 33yrs..I certainly like the idea of an easier sell....I am not sure if the 'long run' outcome is worth it. Any 'accountant' members please feel free to verify what I've been told.

Frank, I think you are right to a point.  Home mortgage deductions are a bit different than some things because it encourages a specific CHOICE in spending - renting vs owning.

Where I think the real damage is done is all the spending on 'non-essentials.'  I see things other people have and wonder how in the world do they afford that stuff - I sure can't.  The answer is, of course, they can't either, but spend other people's money to get it (the bank's money, for example).

And right now we are in the middle of the "me me me" and "I want, I want, I want" season.  Well, I have an "I want," too.  I want a 'simpler' life...one less encumbered by the influence of advertisers' opinions of "should haves."

Thanks for this discussion.  And Peace to all.

A home mortgage is definitely a special case GOOD debt.  About the only good debt that comes to mind, and not because of the tax deductability (although that helps). 

I figure, right now in Maryland I can probably rent a reasonably decent apartment for $1000/mo.  More in some areas, less in others (but bulletproof vests cost money too  :o); but you get the idea.  Every year or two that rent is going to go up a bit.  When I leave the apartment, I will retain none of that $12000 + increases a year spent.

I could buy a home. If I keep my standards the same as I would for an apartment (too many people way overbuy their homes, IMO), I should be able to do it for about the same $1000 including taxes and insurance (many, many variables here, of course).  Assuming a fixed mortgage, my mortgage payment should be the same every year, with only the taxes and insurance variable (which should be the smaller part of the payment, at least for a couple of decades).  In 5 years I will get some of that $12000/yr back with increased equity.  Plus, of course, there is the tax break which helps even further.  And the non-tangible factor of being able to do what I want with my property (subject, of course, to the BS of local bureaucracy :().

Then there is the question of how much of a mortgage to maintain, which I think is partially a function of interest rates and tax breaks.   For a completely random example with no real basis, but just to give you an idea, suppose you borrowed $100,000 at 6% interest, and because of the money retained because of tax deductability you effectively end up with a 5% loan (total BS numbers ... I'm sailing off the chart here).  If with reasonable investing you can MATCH that 5% (never mind beating it, which is a bonus) your financial bite would about break even, except that now you have a growing liquid fund to tap into if needed for emergencies or something. 

Of course, discipline is important to make this work to your advantage.  Taking all the money that would otherwise be equity and turning it into a big screen television (like so many do) is hardly advancing your financial well being.

Houses work partially due to the tax break; but mostly because they rarely go down in value.  The low, low interest rates help, too.  However, this is sailfar.  If you're inclined to live on a small boat long term you will spend even less.  You may make less, too; but the concept of "enough" money changes drastically.

My wife and I are living, rent free, with the inlaws right now :-\.  Great for the savings account.  Not too great for maintaining sanity.  She claims we can't afford to move out.  BS, of course.  We can afford to move; we just can't afford to maintain the same standard of living that we have here.  Me, I'm happy to have a much, much lower level of comfort.  Heck, I would love to move to a floating home.  The wife, though, will have none of it.  The price we pay for marital bliss  ;).

I agree that a home is the ONLY 'good ' debt...providing you don't overspend. I honestly wonder how/why some people do as they do. Like most...we began home ownership with a 'starter home'...a nice little 1 1/2 story built in the late 40's.  From there as equity and income increased, we moved up slightly to a newer 1100ft home. Today..I see young couples coming in for their 1st home and getting 2car garages,2 and 1/2 baths,whirlpools,ceramic and hardwood flooring etc etc......WOW..so much for the 'starter home'. I find that odd..but maybe it is only that at this stage of my life I truly just want 'SIMPLE'...and less stress.      Here's to SIMPLE..less stress..more free time...more sailing....even if it's not tax deductable.   I had to edit this after thinking....NO debt is 'good debt'.....a home is 'exceptable' debt.

A home is only acceptable debt if it is one you can afford.   I see some of the people I've worked with previously, suffering under the burden of interest only mortgages, which they've used to buy a house much larger than they either need or can afford.   The idea of an "interest-only" mortgage horrifies me... what were they thinking???  It doesn't help that housing prices in many metropolitan areas has risen far faster than incomes have, and have made it very difficult for younger families to purchase a reasonable home. 

A house about a block away from where I live was recently on the market for $750,000.  The house is a small three-bedroom, with one bathroom.  None of the bedrooms are larger than 10'x10'.  The house Gee and I owned, down in Virginia, was two times the size, with five bedrooms, and three full baths, and cost us less than $180,000.

Zen, Cmdr  Pete, Frank,

  Thanks, I almost deleted this after I posted it last night.. thanks for the encouragement.

Frank;

QuoteI had to edit this after thinking....NO debt is 'good debt'.....a home is 'exceptable' debt.

Absolutely.  Just as a boat could be an acceptable debt.  Like John said, it is a 'choice' and usually a good one.  Using the money you will pay for living expenses into equity in a home (or better yet a boat) ;) is a good idea.  There is nothing wrong with a 30 year mortgage*, the problem is in planning to take 30 years to pay it off.  If it is going to take you that long, you are either buying too much house, or living too far beyond your means.
*^{(I have had 5 of them)}

  What I see is the median home purchase is now over $250,000.00.  I believe this represents the kind of problem Frank spoke of in post #6.  People 'overbuy' for many reasons, but the fact demonstraited by the numbers is that is has become a social norm.  Maybe they are trying to buy a higher standard of living, but that big new house, needs lots of expensive furnature to fill it up... and of course then both spouses have to have 'good' jobs so that they can make all those payments.....   ::)

  Like Dan said;

QuoteA home is only acceptable debt if it is one you can afford.

  We also know that their spending exceeds their savings, since the savings rate in the US is currently ~ -.6% _{(last month's rate)} the average person is not breaking free of their slavery, but going deeper into it.  :P


  Just as Kurt alluded to in the Holliday thread... we all need to assess where we are, where we want to be, and what the difference is.  Life is too short to waste time on a treadmill.
 
  House, car, boat, new GPS, pack of cigarettes, night in a marina....   How long are you willing to bail to pay for them?  Is it worth it?  What do they really cost? 

Your Money or Your Life: Transforming Your Relationship with Money and Achieving Financial Independence (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0140286780/104-6222371-2367136?ie=UTF8&tag=sailfarnet-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=1789&creativeASIN=0140286780), by Joe Dominguez, Vicki Robin.

(http://ec2.images-amazon.com/images/P/0140286780.01._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_OU01_AA240_SH20_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg)

Good book. ;D I'm with y'all.

I've owned 1 brand new car, & I'll never do that again. My last few have cost less and less, and I actually made money when I sold my last car, after owning it for 3-4 years - har! ;D

I've always been too much of a nomad to actually purchase a domicile, current situation excepting... :D

QuoteSo often I hear discussions of cruising budjets.... what does it cost to go?

  I have not forgotten that I said I would total the costs for our trip, but I wanted to 'bump' this rant thread.

  Without going into the obviously political implications I will just say that there are many who are finding that their lending / spending is coming home to roost right now.... and I am very sorry to see it.

  I hope everyone is living the lives they want to, and not allowing the pull of all the 'stuff' society says we need to be happy get in the way.

Now I know why I am so drawn to this forum.  Finally other people that see things the way I see it. 

Six years ago I went through an ugly divorce.  Predivorce we played the little game of keeping up with the neighbors had the huge 300K home new cars and LOTS of debt.  Divorce and the lawyers basically broke me. They broke me because they tried to take my kids away from me, I spent everything I had to keep equal custody.  During that time I figured out that I was much happier living the simple life.  Next to my two kids Divorce was the best thing that ever happen to me.   

Today six years afterwards, I have house that is perfect in size, no-one feels cramped, it will be paid off in less then seven years(4% APR) , it has the best schools in the area and I owe nothing else.  When it is time for the kids to go to college I will sell the house, give them the proceeds to the kids and then live on my boat. 

We do live in a society where your material possessions own you.  I am glad that life is past me.   

Now with this oil prices, I think you will see all of these huge houses a thing of the past.  It costs alot to heat,cool and maintain them. 

The only thing that is killing me is my truck which gets terrible gas mileage but I have to have it to trailer my boat.  To offset that I ride my bike most places when I do not have my kids.  I might find a nice small beater car.


Great Rant.

QuoteToday six years afterwards, I have house that is perfect in size, no-one feels cramped, it will be paid off in less then seven years(4% APR) , it has the best schools in the area and I owe nothing else.  When it is time for the kids to go to college I will sell the house, give them the proceeds to the kids and then live on my boat.

We do live in a society where your material possessions own you.  I am glad that life is past me.   

Now with this oil prices, I think you will see all of these huge houses a thing of the past.  It costs alot to heat,cool and maintain them.

The only thing that is killing me is my truck which gets terrible gas mileage but I have to have it to trailer my boat.  To offset that I ride my bike most places when I do not have my kids.  I might find a nice small beater car.

Well said Ronc...grog to ya for it.

Cheers ronc....grog to ya

This is my kind'a rant!

I haven't taken out a loan since 1995. I sleep much better because of it. But true freedom requires more than just lack of debt. I was once tied to a management job. I worked long, hard hours, and spent my little free time in recovery. My wife and I made the decision a few years ago, to live simply, and as free from stress as possible. We started a small business that allows us to set our own work schedules. I was able to take 5 weeks off this spring to do a sailing trip that I have dreamed about for years. We make far less money than when I worked for a large company. But, you know what? We don't seem to miss the money at all. We get by just fine on less. Our taxes are lower. eating out is "special" again. we drive plain, workday , older vehicles that do the job for 1/5th of a new one.

Don't be a slave to money and possesions. Don't waste your life waiting for retirement. Don't think a new boat is needed for happiness. I paid 1800.00 for my 24 footer and honestly enjoy it as much or more that my neighbor enjoys his 50,000 boat. Do the things you feel you should do. You won't regret it.

Chuck

They say the best things in life are free....

  Kinda like grog!  ;D

Enjoy!

When I tell my wife that people are living out there simply, cheaply on their own boat she just shakes her head. But this is my type of lifestyle. I'll even put out my shingle for fellow liveaboards- but you'll have to find me first! We could live in a barter community- no money except to deal with those outsiders. ;D

and my wife just goes sailing by herself if I don't have time to go-We've gotten ourselves debt free- now she's working stowing money into an account she opened labeled "cruising fund".

I think this time next year we'll be out there ;D

Oh- and that debt free includes the house. We built it ourselves, and I don't mean HAD it built- WE built it. Every screw, nail wire, piece of sheet rock. All paid for when it came home to be added to the house. We lived in a 24 foot travel trailer ( three of us) until we got the house to where we could move in. With the exception of the dining table which had belonged to Laura's grandmother, we didn't have furniture- just mattresses on the floor- but we moved in.

We did take out an equity loan on the house to pay off some other bills, but that's done. The house is now free and clear. Small by some standards- only 2 bedroom- just under 1000 square feet- but we like it. It's also really low maintenance- no paint on the exterior at all- either rough cedar or pressure treated wood, or roof.

WTG

Quote from: newt on July 29, 2008, 02:55:31 PM
When I tell my wife that people are living out there simply, cheaply on their own boat she just shakes her head. <snip>

I would do it even if it were more expensive.  8)

Interestingly, today I was told by a fellow geek (who I will be working with to develop a company website for a third party) that the third party told him in a meeting they had today that they liked me, liked my work, and felt good overall about what we will be doing - *except* for the fact that I live on a boat. That apparently was a bit of a concern for the Big Boss.

;D L M A O ;D

Ironically enough, he is supposedly a certified Captain.

??? ::) ??? It takes all kinds, I reckon...  ;)

CapnK-

Exactly what does living on a boat have to do with your skills and expertise in developing a website?? AFAIK, the two are completely unrelated.  The Big Boss is a convention bound dinosaur.

Quote from: CapnK on July 29, 2008, 05:49:21 PM
........- *except* for the fact that I live on a boat. That apparently was a bit of a concern for the Big Boss......

  Wow!  Sure is a good thing he does not know about your drinking problem.... or your criminal record....  :P



















































;) ;D

ROTFLMAO ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Faith.  Man, this is one of the best RANTS I've heard in a long time ;D ;) ;D! Grog on ya man!!! :D ;) :D

Now, if we can only get our government to think this way things might start looking up for our future. Hey, I know... FAITH FOR PRESIDENT :o :o :o!!! Works for me!!!

Fair winds,

Pappy Jack

P.S. Say, isn't Captn. Zen running too?

I went ahead and split this post, and the other posts talking about the utility of credit cards off to; Financing the Cruise (http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php?topic=841)  It is a good topic, and is worth reading back through.

Quote from: Shipscarver on July 29, 2008, 04:45:33 PM
Hey Hey Charlie J !
BRAVO!!

"Ya' got ya head on straight Kid!"

My advise to all: Take all of your credit cards (but one never carried, for medical emergency) to the shore of a large body of water. Shred your credit cards with a boat knife, wrap in newspaper, soak with rum, burn at the shoreline. Then scatter the ashes to the sea, followed by a overly generous splash of rum, and invoke the sprite of Neptune to help you sail into life debt free.
Live on a debit card. It works the same way, including a small transfer of money to your savings account, but forces you to stop spending when the balance in your checking account is gone.
Let's face it, you shouldn't be spending more than you make to start with.
If you "need" a credit card to live, then you are a disaster looking for a point in time,  to happen.
I found it difficult at first (following surgery and divorce) until I realized that if I can not pay for something today and buy it anyway, then I am trying to live someone else's life, not mine. Thereby, I devalue myself and become worth less than I was as a person.

One part of Shipscarver's post that really stuck out to me was;

Quote from: Shipscarver on July 29, 2008, 04:45:33 PM
.....I found it difficult at first (following surgery and divorce) until I realized that if I can not pay for something today and buy it anyway, then I am trying to live someone else's life, not mine. Thereby, I devalue myself and become worth less than I was as a person.

  Good stuff.  I think this may well be a big part of the problem with our society... might explain why so many are living like there is something to prove (to other people). 

Great extract on Shipscarver's quote Craig....grog to him...and you for taking it out ;)

A money guru I subscribe to is Dave Ramsey, author of "The Total Money Make Over" plus a radio show on XM and Sirius satellite radio. Dave is a BIG proponent of cash only and burn the credit cards etc.,etc. Another guru is Robert Kyiosaki, author of the "Rich Dad Poor Dad" series... a very easy read and VERY enlightening ;). If you have any questions about personial finance, I'd go to one of these guys :D

Fair winds,

Pappy Jack

I listen to Dave Ramsey too...
Good news guys, we were eating out with another couple when the topic turned to cruising, and  my wife defended the cruising lifestyle! There is hope... ;D
Granted, I want to be doing a lot of things during retirement, but I hope cruising is a big one.

I have a little bit of a dilemma that I've been cogitating on for a bit. I know my decision has to be my own, but I'm curious as to what some of my fellow sailors would do.

Recently, when visiting a charter company to check out some possibilities of sailing in a larger boat, the charter company mentioned an ASA course they offer that would include four days of "Live aboard" experience on a boat similar to the size we'd eventually like to get.

Now, I've been sailing for five years and am comfortable on the sloop we own (22 footer). However, my wife would very much like the comfort and confidence that goes along with learning how to sail, of course, from someone who is NOT her husband. Plus, the idea of learning and living on a larger boat is exciting to both of us.

Since sailing is usually "my thing" and not hers, I saw this as a great opportunity to really get her into the groove and set the wheels in motion. I would be taking the course with her. You can always learn new things, right?

Now, my question for you all is this: I have the cash to do the course. The money could also be used for more practical things such as paying off a credit card, paying for my eldest's senior pictures, taking care of some things around the house, etc. You get the picture.

We don't have a ton of money. The $1500 to do the four day ASA course is a lot of cash to us, but, this time around we actually DO have the money.

My wife says it's up to me. She'd love to do the course, but she was thinking next year rather than this year. But, man, you should have seen the excitement when I told her we were penciled in!

So, dear cruisers and wannabes, do I follow the conventional wisdom of working to get out of debt in the hopes of getting closer to the day we can cast off the dock lines? Or do I seize the day and blow the cash on the course?

As I said, I know the decision is mine, but it's fun to get different perspectives.

Fair winds,

Nick

P.S. This would also be our anniversary present to each other.

Nick,

Of course it depends on the company and the instructor, but having done the very thing with my first mate I highly recommend it. It could be the very best $1500 you have spent. I would suggest trying to get references, because a good instructor can make all the difference. Also do not expect complete instruction, you will be required to pre learn a lot in a course like that.

Tim

Quote from: Seadogg on August 01, 2008, 11:07:44 AM
I have a little bit of a dilemma that I've been cogitating on for a bit.

I would do it  8) (it's always easy spending someone else's money  ;D).

If extended cruising aboard a larger vessel than your own is part of "the dream", even if not forever - then makes sense to see how you get on. and doing so early means you get plenty of time to amend plans if needed or simply will provide reinforcement / encouragement for "your dream". and even more ideas / more dreams  :)

and The fact yer Missus would now jump at the chance should not be discounted - yer never know what is around the corner.......

Seadogg,

Dave Ramsey, the money guru, would have you get out of debt first :(. Debt and taxes are the two thieves that will steal most of your money and keep you in the poor house. On the other hand, Robert Kyiosaki would  want you to get out of bad debt but cautiously  get into good debt(good debt is debt that somebody else pays for you). Then use the profits from your good debt to buy the fun stuff ;D. Or, you can follow you bliss and take the course. It's all up to you ???.

Fair wind and full sails,

Pappy Jack

I just can't do the 'good debt' thing ???  Back in 1980 I had a morgage and a floating business loan...both most would consider 'good debt'. Then the rates here climbed to over 20%....near broke me! Sold my house,car...bought an old plymouth for $250 and did the 'tremclad paintjob' to survive.Managed to barely hold on to the business..barely...and had the most stressful 5yrs of my life. To me NO debt is 'good debt'...unless it's interest free. Morgages,car payments,credit card payments etc....all add up in INTEREST...money you are paying someone else...money you are working hard for. I just can't see people borrowing huge to have an oversized home...then borrowing for a big car, yet I see it all the time.I've spent most of my life in homes of 900ft or less and currently drive a Toyota Yaris. Maybe I'm cheap...maybe I'm scared...but I AIN"T ever going through another 5yrs like the early 80's again.

It's been awhile since I read rich dad poor dad; but as I recall, he considers a home mortgage as BAD debt, but generally necessary.

One way or another you have to pay for housing.  Either you rent, buy, or live out of your boat; but it costs money regardless.  However, you are very right about people buying too much house.  I know couples (including my in-laws) who live in 4-5000 sq ft, 5-6 bedroom, 3-4 bath houses.  My mother-in-law sometimes calls it a small house.  Go figure.

I have always considered money spent for constructive education/training to be an investment, and as an entertainment expense. But, it was only acceptable if it didn't cause me to demolish my budget.
Last Spring I was very tempted to start in an academic program at a school where I used to teach. But, after careful consideration I felt at this point in my life it would not be a reasonable move. However, the same amount of money to buy a boat was very, very reasonable! ;D  ;)  :D

Well, Like I said,"It's all up to you." If Kiyosaki's philosophy isn't your thing, then go with Ramsey(get out of debt and stay out of debt). It's also is a very good and safer plan. Most people don't have a plan except "earn it, borrow it, and spend it" then complain that they are "tired of living paycheck to paycheck" ??? :'( . I know of what I speak because I use to be one myself ::).

One thing I learned from Kiyosaki is you spend money on basically two thing, assets and liability's. Assets put money in your pocket and liabilities take money out. It is just that simple. He also says that you have to reduce your risk,when borrowing,  as much as possable.
I've researched other money guru's but picked these two men because what they preach covers just about everything I need. I would just suggest reading a few differant sources and make your own decision. The subject of money can be as complicated or as simple as you want to make it...it's all up to you ??? ;D.

Good luck and fair winds,

Pappy Jack

Nick,
My wife and I took sailing courses together-
Instructor and fellow students are very important.  May I suggest a third solution if you really want to make it "her thing" too? Invest and send her to a all female course. My wife was very intimidated by the other "alpha male" type students that were with us on the boat. So much so that I am just now (three years later) getting her back into the learning about sailing mode.
Imagine this:
She correcting you in some sort of cruising protocol, because she learned how to do it at school- she feels pride in her navigation and seamanship, etc.  You kinda say "whatever" but you couldn't be happier that you have a well qualified first mate on board. It sure helps in stressful situations- that is for sure.
My wife is very well qualified, but do to those who over shadowed her out in the ocean, her self-esteem needs a little growth. So above is how I would do it if I had to do it over again.

Adam,

Kiyosaki says that a home is a liability because it takes money out of your pocket even if it's payed for. You still have to pay for taxes, insurance, up keep, etc. It becomes an asset when you sell it for a profit. A lot of people have found out that there homes have lost much of there value over the last year which tells us that there are no guaranties...ever :'(. One just has to practice due diligence in finance, sailing or just life in general. You just have to remember to follow your bliss  ;D.

Fair winds,

Pappy Jack

Pappy Jack.....I remember watching an interview with a wise and wealthy man.He stated that "you never truly own anything...even if it's paid for.You simply become a 'caretaker' of it"...how true that is.Taxs-insurance-upkeep etc.......simply a 'caretaker of stuff'...stuff ends up owning you  :'(. Bottom line...have less stuff and only 'stuff you use and enjoy'

Amen,

Do we really own anything ???? If we fail to pay our realestate taxes, who will end up with it? The state. What happens to your stuff if you don't have a will or relatives to fight over it? The state, it's called "escheat". We do have control over our stuff but in the end, who really owns it? The state. Kind of makes you wonder, does it not ??? ????

Fair winds

Pappy Jack

P.S. All in all, the good ol' U.S.of A. is still a pretty good place to live.

Still lots of big $$$ to be made on the Internet

Like money in the bank....

http://www.websiteoutlook.com/www.sailfar.net

Money for cruising, good debt, bad debt, and all the other talk....

I don't have a deep financial background but I can relate a few simple things that worked for me/us.

First, get a simple money program for your computer like Quicken, or something like that. Then, set it up AND USE IT! After 6 months or so making it all balance, to the penny, print out the reports and see were your money is going. If you have not done this, don't talk about where you spend money! It's a real eye opener!!!!! Don't ask how I know. Once you know EXACTLEY where you are bleeding cash, you can do something about it.

Second, as was already stated, DO NOT MAKE CAR payments! A car is a tool, not a status symbol!

Next, purchase a house. Put as much down as you can to make the monthly payments low.

Then, pay off your small boat to go cruising.

Rent out the house, at a profit to keep you cruising......

Worked for us!

Greg
PS... Send that lady to sailing school, some investments are intrinsic in nature, but the payback is awesome!

Where'd the money go???

I was lookin' at net worth thingy & when I pushed the update button,
2/3 of it went away !!!

Danny

Hiding it from you ;D ;D

Howdy "no kin" how ya been- haven't seen your moniker on the boards for quite a while.

Sailing a %$&* Ford tractor around the ranch.

Got hydraulics laying all over the backyard now.
I think it ran aground.
Get any rain?

Danny

Rain? What's that?

Actually we've had some in the last three weeks. Got 4 inches a couple weeks ago, but nothing from Gustav- we're too far away. Had north winds off of it today but the temps still hit 100.

Still have cracks in the ground here and there .

Rain?  ??? I'm letting my one 10'X24' piece of lawn die back. Not because I don't have the water to irrigate, but because the d*#m cows from next door keep coming over to feed on it! I't so torn up now I have to start all over next year.

They are smart too and only come at night when it's dark. Caught one at twilight last night, but it ran so fast it was 50 yards away by the time I got the shotgun to my shoulder!  ;D

Shotgun? Hmmmmm, you must have been on a steak out.  ;D

Tim......that sure sounds like a "redneck rant"  ;D

True, a little "thread rustlin'" but replacing the lawn IS going to cut into my boat budget  ;)

Save the lawn and feed the family....can't be all bad ;)

Some pretty good information in this thread. Unfortunately, it seems that credit is forced upon us at a young age. Consider the debt young people have just getting a decent education. The government and business will make sure to get theirs at any cost. It doesn't help that your credit scores and such, are based off of you carrying debt.

Ultimately, its all just willpower. You have to have the ability to throw those offer letters in the trash. Unfortunately in life, we all face those times we just aren't prepared for. You can never have a plan for every situation. You might need to open a card for the unforseen large car repairs, or hospital bills, etc. The challange is WAITING until that time to take out the line of debt.

Anyway, someone mentioned Quicken and such. I use this to help out, and ITS FREE!

http://www.mint.com (http://www.mint.com)

Lets also not forget, its always a good thing to invest! Especially right now when the market is down. I personally have my company 401k as well as a few IRA's and a few mutual funds. Nothing crazy, but enought spread around that when I do get to retirement age, I should have plenty to continue my cruising (granted im also saving now, and plan to retire no later than age 45!).

Was driving past the local 'Marine Max' franchise today.  I was thinking about just how glad I am not to have the kind of debt that the big power boaters regularly got into to purchase those boats......

... Gotta love a small boat.  Gotta love a small SAIL boat.   ;D

Similar thoughts for me today. I sit and stare a the long list of work ahead of me on the Ariel I am so glad that it is small enough that it can sit on a trailer next to my shop to be worked on however and whenever I choose. The only problems is I keep coming up with more to do.

I believe I have caught "Ebbitis" (Kurt, Tony and Craig will understand) :)

Quote from: Tim on January 16, 2009, 12:46:59 AM
I believe I have caught "Ebbitis" (Kurt, Tony and Craig will understand) :)

Remember the cure:

"Perfection is the enemy of Good Enough."

;D ;D :D ;D ;D

Besides, Capt Tony & Ebb, the work they do... I dunno if you can put me in that category. I'm a duffer, compared to those pro's! :)

They are Charlie Jones-level boat makers... ;D

:) It is not just the quality of work (I know I can't match the Likes of Tony and Charlie) but also the endless list of projects that won't allow the boat to feel water for a number of years :)

Met a power cruiser here the other day that was proud of his 30 gallon per hour fuel consumption rate.   :o :o

Another told me that at 8 kts, he's at 4 gal per hr.  If he throttles back to 6 kts, he can drop it to 3 gal per hour.  Funny, in decent wind, my boat will go 6-ish knots (not always "made good"   ;D ) and use 0 gal per hour.

Different strokes, I guess.

Quote from: Captain Smollett on January 16, 2009, 11:34:02 AMDifferent strokes, I guess.

Yes, there are 2 strokes, 4 strokes, and (drumroll, please) 0 strokes... ;D




Thanks, I'll be here all week. Try the meatloaf!

:D :D :D

Tim...if you really have "Ebbitis" you'll have to learn to 'wax poetic' in your writing as well ;D :D   

Quote from: Frank on January 16, 2009, 04:36:39 PM
Tim...if you really have "Ebbitis" you'll have to learn to 'wax poetic' in your writing as well ;D :D   

LMAO So true!  ;D

  I was thinking of this issue of 'slavery' this morning.  So many of my friends, here on this board and elsewhere are suffering right now.  I hope that as the standards of our modern western life are challenged that many will find ways to 'escape' from the cycle that has held us for so long.

  I read a blog yesterday written by a man who calls himself a 'refugee' of the economic crisis.  He and his wife live on their CSY33 with their smallish child.  Reading his blog (I will look for a link if anyone is interested) It seems to be that they are not refugees, but they have escaped.

  I am thankful for the life I have, and for having the things I need.  Even in our current shore life our needs are met.  I am thankful for this time, especially for my First Mate's healing.  I do hope that in the midst of so much difficulty (financial and otherwise) that we may all emerge with a new, more healthy view of what is important.  I hope that, as difficult as this is, that good may come from it.

 

A friend once told me that for me, "everything is a metaphor"

  She was probably right.  I see some obvious things that my mind grabs onto, probably too simple for
more intellectually gifted among us to notice.

  In helping some friends move over the last week, I kept noticing the expression on their faces as they lifted
heavy boxes.  Some of these boxes were being removed from a storage shed, where they had been placed
at some time in the past.  They were sealed, and apparently had not been accessed for some time.

  Their expressions (and my own sore muscles) reminded me of the burden of these possessions.  The things
we "need" weigh us down, and draw more energy then we notice.

  The weight of extra gear has a noticeable effect on the waterline of the boat.  I have continued to remove things
from 'Faith' since we got back.   I wonder about how much these things that were largly in the way, and weighed us down detracted from the overall experience.

  May all of our burdens be light.....

It's funny ... Since we have lived aboard smallish boats since 1983 all of the current interest in living aboard makes us something less than a freak show these days.

We never set out to do the boat thing to be frugal just that it was what we wanted to do... The fact that if you do it right the whole boat thing turns out to be a very modest hence frugal lifestyle but that is just a bonus not the reason for doing it.

One of the great parts of living on boats is that it is a pretty much level playing field...A few weeks ago we were anchored in the same bay as Maltese Falcon and as far as I know Tom Perkins woke up to the same view and same weather as we did...

Life is good!

Bob
http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/

Well the view may be the same...
but I bet the frig looks different! :)
(Hey man, can I borrow some ice cubes?)

Just came across this....seems to fit Craigs rant...

"We don't need to increase our goods nearly as much as we need to scale
down our wants. Not wanting something is as good as possessing it." - Donald
Horban

You know, re-reading all this to see how our rants moved with the changes in market, it got me to thinking. Last month there was an segment on 60 minutes about people that just walked away from their mortgages. Many had reasons, but, the part I found intresting was the people that weren't in any sort of distress, that made the choice to do it for personal financial reasons.

I am one of those people. Im sure younger than most on this forum, and definately a different generation. While I can respect the "moral obligations" to return payment on what I borrowed, the reality is, its one sided. Do you think the banks and financial institutions are morally bound when dealing with you? So, why should I sacrifice my potential wealth, happiness, and dream on the basis that it might take another 5-15 years for my real estate investment to be profitable.

This lead to a few other lines of thought. One, from the extreme edge of society, people believe that the governments want you in debt. Makes you easy to track, and keeps them in money.

Then on the same edge, but slightly more to center is the "off grid" societies. Alot of them made the move to their desired living stratagies by walking away from everything, taking what they had and starting over. Then you have the more center looking people like myself that are wondering what the heck we are doing? We didn't ask to be put in this situation, we are doing our best to keep our moral compas pointed north, and in the process are sacrificing our dreams, futures, and whatever else. Finally you have the other side that believes that your posessions make your status.

The beauty of us Sailfar'ers is that we can apprecaite most of these views with a little less bias, because I think our population runs the gambit of levels of percieved "success". With that in mind, it would be intresting to find out your thoughts on this? Why haven't more of us walked away to our dreams? Sure, a few have made the move to living aboard, and some are cutting dock lines as I type this. Some of us have family issues preventing it, some have medical issues, the list can go on and on. Lets boil it down though. Even with all this issues, what do you think is the main reason for continuing to contribute to the financial situation we are all (in some way) helping with? The information on this board is a virtual treasure trove of ideas, thoughts, plans, everything. The content alone, could bring a 3rd world country out of poverty levels (well, maybe if they elected Capn K as king and overloard!).

So, in summary, since this is long, im intrested to know 1) "If your not living your dream now, what is keeping you from it", and 2) "If you are living your dream, what are you doing to avoid getting pulled away from it"?

*edit* given CJs comments below, maybe I should rephrase the question.

"Are your morals keeping you from your dream?"

I suppose we are "living the dream". But we may be a bit different.

Boat- paid for
House-paid for
Vehicles-both paid for
Debts-none

But it took some years of hard work to get here.

I don't think thats different CJ. Given the varied range on this forum, I expect most people are like you actually. However, for the sake of argument, lets just say you didn't have your vehicle paid for. If it was keeping you from your dream, would you be willing to "walk away from the debt obligation" to get to your dream? Or, if your house wasn't paid for, and would you sell it at a loss, or even forclose, or "walk away", again, to make your dream? Especially when we live in a situation where its now becoming common practice to do so?

We did not ask for it? Really?

Sorry,  but if you signed on the loan paper or let the clerk swipe your card through the reader,  you DID sign up for whatever debt you have.

Living above one's means is a personal choice.  Another part of the Sailfar spirit is responsibility.  I believe one should keep his word, whether that is to show up for work on time,  remain faithful in your personal relationships with friends or family,  or paying back money you CHOSE to borrow.

I find it despicable that someone with the means to pay back a loan walks away from it for any selfish reason. Lots of people pay off debt by living within means (which often means doing without for a while) and hard work.

I am at a net positive financially, my assets could pay off my debt and there is enough left over to pay for many years of frugal cruising. 

Its the ties that bind that hold me to the dock.  People who need me and who I care for. 

Quote from: Captain Smollett on July 01, 2010, 05:09:59 PM
We did not ask for it? Really?

Sorry,  but if you signed on the loan paper or let the clerk swipe your card through the reader,  you DID sign up for whatever debt you have.

Living above one's means is a personal choice.  Another part of the Sailfar spirit is responsibility.  I believe one should keep his word, whether that is to show up for work on time,  remain faithful in your personal relationships with friends or family,  or paying back money you CHOSE to borrow.

I find it despicable that someone with the means to pay back a loan walks away from it for any selfish reason. Lots of people pay off debt by living within means (which often means doing without for a while) and hard work.

While I agree, considering the world we live in now, and the fact that people *are* walking away from their debts, the 60 minutes bit, and constant new articals, etc, are turning this into a common practice. Working in the financial sector, I see first hand what this does. It slows *everyone's* recovery.

The sad part is, the companies care even less. With so much apathy towards the overall situation, I'm just wondering who else is fighting the losing fight. It feels almost like waiting to see who is going to be left holding the bag.

I don't care how many people are doing something dishonest. That does not not make it right. At the end of the day, I can only control my own behavior.

Part of what's wrong with this country, is the idea that it's ok to blame someone else for your problems. It's also not ok to make others have to pay off your debts.  :'(

As a small business owner that does most transactions by taking credit cards; I see the result of some peoples' irresponsibility with credit card debt. We must pay 3% of every transaction as a charge for the bank that handles the credit card. A large part of that amount is because some people max out their cards and then just "walk away". So, it's not really the banks that have to pay for bad loans, etc.; it's the average consumer, small business, and financially responsible people who must make up the loss in higher fees, interest, and prices.

There are commercials airing right now that want people with lots of debt to "take advantage of the Government bailout." Well, just who do you think pays for the government bailout? I'm sick of living in a 125 year old house, (that I paid for), driving a 10 year old truck, ( I paid cash for) sailing a 43 year old boat, doing without , to remain debt free, and paying exorbinate taxes and fees, so others can live the good life, and not have to pay for it!


Don't sign that paper unless you can and will honor that debt!

Excellent post okawbow! You said the frustration I feel, and maybe for me its expounded by seeing, and taking part in the shady !@#$ that the firm I work for is doing (JPMorgan). Ultimately, we, the responsible ones lose. All we are looking for is our piece of pie, or to make our dreams a reality, but, as long as this vicious circle continues, we won't win.

Maybe I need to stop drinking so much Dr Pepper, and reading all these micro blogs on living under the radar, it makes for a bad combonation, LOL!

Quote from: Captain Smollett on July 01, 2010, 06:34:19 PM
I don't care how many people are doing something dishonest. That does not not make it right. At the end of the day, I can only control my own behavior.

My feelings exactly John

Yep, reminds me of a B. Dylan quote (I think)  "If you want to be an outlaw, you have to be honest" 

I just listened to a "Furled Sails" podcast last night, an interview with Roger Taylor "Voyages of a Simple Sailor" and the one thing he is adamant about is taking personal responsibility for one self on the seas. I think that goes for all of life.

Debts. Responsibilities.  Moral obligations.  Yada, yada, yada.  I think the question being raised is at what point do you feel so helpless or trapped that you just accept being the bad guy.

I have been hearing stories of people who are defaulting on their homes for purely strategic reasons.  I strongly suspect they are in the minority. I think most people in this situation are dealing with divorce, seriously dropping home prices (making homes impossible to sell), decreasing pay (assuming jobs are kept at all), vanishing savings, and numerous other disasters that accompany a seriously damaged economy.  When a person finds themselves in a situation with no apparent way out, the fight or flight instinct takes over.  I don't think people are walking away from their homes.  They are running for their lives.

I was just like all of you who look at this in black and white until this exact situation came knocking on my doorstep.  While I continue to meet my obligations (and I live a modest life in a modest home with a modest car and a modest boat that is now for sale), it is a near thing, and I am somewhat more understanding of others who make the other decision, even if it is financially and morally irresponsible.

Going back to the original post(s) on this thread, I think the point is just as valid now as it was then.

 We need to live our live deliberately.  Every moment we are making choices that are very likely to
have much farther reaching consequences then we might recognise at the time.

 The world, and it's ways are not going to promote freedom, but rather trap us if we are unaware.

 THe idea of responsibility is larger then even the moral concepts related to it. Responsibility requires that we are engaged in our decision making process and prepaired to accept the real cost and consequences of our actions.

 I see the 'SailFar' ideal as a reflection of this responsibility.  Choosing a small boat with simple systems is a decision that plays out over and over.  The decreased dockage, less complicated systems to repair, less need for outside support systems like insurance.... these are all consequences of a decision.  In electing to not have a watermaker, the small boat Sailor spends more time going ashore and meeting the locals, and less time waiting for an expensive delivery of parts in a distant port.

Responsibility does not just promote freedom, it can equate to freedom.

  How many cruises end because the money runs out?  How many end because life becomes unbearable on a boat that is too large, too small, too complicated, or lacking systems necessary to make life tolerable?  Each of these factors must be considered and balanced.

  Our decision's have a real and lasting consequence on our reality. 

  I appreciate this discussion, I believe that it is helpful to us all.  I appreciate Adam bringing his action and their consequences to the table.

   I see it much like so many sea journeys that have gone poorly.  Some will take the opportunity to learn from the others error, and others will sit behind their keyboards and mock... I have not seen mocking here, for which I am very thankful.  I do believe that there is courage in inviting others to look at, evaluate, and hopefully learn from our decisions once they play out.
Humans are exceedingly bad at forseeing the effects of our decisions.  This fact has been established by scientific research, but largly unecessarily.  How many of us have seen someone make decisions in their lived that they were later surprised by the poor outcome?  How often did we have to resist (or not resist) thetemptation to says "I told you so?"

Adam hit the nail on the head for the most part. I look back to 10 years ago when I got divorced. I was so dumb. I didn't know what bankruptcy was. I tried to be the gentleman and "do the right thig" by assuming our shared debt. In '01 and '02 it got me nothing but homeless, living off other peoples welfare, and struggling just to live. Granted being fresh out of the Marines helped my survival instinct. Now, I look back and im years from where I was. Over 800 credit score, a house, toys, all the trappings of "happiness". Yet I find myself more unhappy now than when I was poor and just getting by.

I think Faith captures this with his posts. The decisions and responsibilities each one of us decide to take, is just for that. About us. This life is yours to live as YOU see fit. Sure, I have moral obligations and responsibilities to attend to, but lately, alot of soul searching is making me ask myself these questions, and im a little shocked at some of my responses. Hence why I posed the questions in the first place. Lately, I have been realizing that when I look over my checkered past, the moments that produce some of the fondest memories, are when I was just staying "alive". Now I find myself asking, myself, whats it all worth? What do these faceless companies care about my morals, or my beliefs, or ideals, or anything. heck, some of the work I do now, I wonder why im even doing it. Its not right, for anyone. Why am I doing it if I wouldn't want to do it to myself?

All in all, it bothers me, to see good people, struggling so hard because they are trapped in the "morality" that "society" has placed on us. While this conversation has been wonderful, it hasn't gotten me any closer to the inner turmoil im dealing with about what life and living is anymore. However, if I find the answer is to walk away from everything, you can be darn sure im taking the full step forward. When we die, we can't take anything with us but our memories.

Sorry for the crazy rambling, hope it makes sense!

Nowell, it's kinda funny but of late the conversation with several friends is about "life". I'm 53 and the majority of good friends around the same. Most, while in their 30's figured it would be way easier and they would have it all 'figured out' by their 50's...only to be dissapointed and often more confused than back then.
Our talks always refer back to 'simpler times' when we seemed to do more...to have more free time and generally enjoyed ourselves far more freqeuntly.
My take is that we enjoy life more when our minds aren't spinning...ei: when you are cutting the lawn...you are enjoying it and taking your time. Your mind isn't already at the next thing you have to do or place you must be at in 20 minutes. Washing your car, cooking...yep even eating take on a whole new form when we are doing 'just that' and not spinning already onto the next thing we just gotta do. Most of us as we age have old, often sick parents to care for. Kids off at school or college. Jobs that seem to take more time than before and all the worries that go along with realizing if we are to break free...we must get our ducks in order.
Judy and I often talk about this and my take is a simplistic one....life comes down to 2 things
      Simplicity      and    Choice
The less we have..the less we have to worry about,maintain,insure etc
We make tons of choices daily...each will effect our life and our 'qaulity of life'
Thats the majic...to define 'qaulity of life'.  For me..at my stage of life, "quality" comes from having more free time, less time at work and being less 'spun'.
I have chose to give up some opportunities and potential higher income in exchange for 'less'. Less is more...more 'me' time and a clearer mind. I'm not perfect at it but I'm much more councious of it than before. When I find myself cutting the grass fast or eating fast etc...I catch myself and  s l o w  down.
I think thats the majic of the 'struggling periods'...we had more time and less distractions. We were more "alive".  Sorry for the ramble.

ROFL !!

Frank-53? Just a kid. Wait'll you hit 69 and are wondering where life went.

Best advice I've ever seen for wanna be cruisers comes from the Pardey's-

Go small, go now

Quote from: Frank on July 13, 2010, 05:40:08 PM

The less we have..the less we have to worry about,maintain,insure etc

I was talking about this with a friend today.  We were discussing composting heads and waste of fresh water in general - he does not live aboard a boat, but, he is moving his family's home toward a 'simpler' lifestyle.  He's taken to using a pump-up sprayer for showers, and has noticed he gets a VERY COMFORTABLE shower from 2 quarts of solar heated water; he specifically remarked that he has observed no loss of luxury in this approach.  The topic was how all these 'things' are NOT separate systems/gadgets - they build on each other and interact in complicated way.

I used the example of another boat in this marina that has 'running water' aboard.  They fill their 60-ish gallon tank every couple of days.  The wife turns on the faucet to do dishes and just lets it run.  As such, her convenience of pressurized, running water creates a LOT of waste; she might as well just open the hose straight to the river and let it run.  In contrast, our 30 gallon tank lasts us 4-6 weeks, using it for dishes, general clean-ups, water for the cat, coffee/tea and some drinking (though admittedly NOT our primary source of fluid intake).

My point was that we had to work just a little bit harder (hand pump) to get our water, and as such had 'conservation' built into the design and methodology of the 'system.'  Sure, we could have running water and simply exercise 'water discipline;' a lot of people do this successfully.  But with the simpler system, the discipline is built-in.  We CAN'T just let our water run...it doesn't.   ;)

So, my point was how the conveniences build on each other, add together and before you know it, you have an encumbered 'system' that very easily produces a huge amount of waste, including "spiritual waste."

Quote

I think thats the majic of the 'struggling periods'...we had more time and less distractions. We were more "alive".  Sorry for the ramble.

There was a period a few years back when I was between jobs and my wife worked part-time for $6.50 an hour.  We were fairly poor in terms of $$, say about $200 per week (mid 90's), and the house we rented for $350 a month had the charm of letting a fair amount of the -20 degree winter inside.  Our washer and dryer were OUTSIDE, and we endured one snow storm without heat since the gas truck could not get to us to fill our tank.  A lady that worked with my wife loaned us a kerosene room heater, which did help some.

I mention this because, oddly enough, we talk about those months, that winter, as some of the fondest memories of our 17 year relationship.

Being "without" brought us closer to the way we live, and, I've got to say, learning about ourselves that we CAN survive "without" is an important lesson to learn.  In contrast, I've met people who have said they could not survive without a tv, a dishwasher, hot showers, a HEATED HOME (in mountain winter), etc, etc...name your convenience.  Of course, they CAN survive without, they just don't KNOW that they can.

Also, when I was in grad school, I lived in abject poverty for most of five years.  I was lucky enough to own my home (a small mobile home I bought with some gift money I had saved), but paid rent for the lot.  I made about $12,000 per year, and the school wisely took large chunks of it right back in the form of tuition, fees, mandatory health insurance, etc, etc.  Bottom line?  I learned to feed myself on $20 (or less) per week; eating "out" was a special treat of two slices of pizza a friend and I made a payday ritual once per month.

Yet I managed to go to some neato places, meet some really cool people (including a couple of Nobel Laureates), date a few really cool women and ultimately have those little (or big) life's experiences that define who I am.  Lack of money did not end my life.

I guess the point of my diatribe here is that living "without" forces you to make a decision about how you are going to cope - just like a broken rig, bad weather, or any of 60,000,000 other things that can define themselves as "problems" in life. 

I once knew a German couple who were working here in the States.  They had gone on a 2 week camping vacation to Great Smokey Mountains Nat'l Park, and it rained all but one or two days on them.  He was griping about it to no end when he returned to work, and being an avid rain-camper, I finally got tired of it (my family has camped more in the rain than not).  In addition, he had been teasing a mutual friend about his 'cheaper' Walmart style gear vs the German name-brand stuff he had carried.

Me:  I rather enjoy camping in the rain
Him: Well, I've always said: there is no bad weather, just bad equipment
Me:  Yep, just like I've always said: there is no bad equipment, just bad attitude.

I'm saddened that so many people in our culture are convinced that "without" is somehow less living, when my own experiences with "without," as Frank says above, are some of the richest of my life's experiences.  Having realized that, we now pursue "without" in some areas of our lives rather actively (ie, no running water) and almost daily talk about ways to increase our "without."

Who's rambling now?   ::)

I had some friends who were long time liveaboards. Same boat now for some 40'years in fact.

There shower is a 5 gallon black barrel just aft of the mast. Has a hand pump to fill it. The shower sump doesn't drain
-IT has a hand pump.'so shower water is hand pumped twice. REALLY makes you conserve !!!

@Capn Smollet & Frank et alles


Very well expressed. Both I and Isabelle have got the same kind of experiences and agree completely.

And at least for myself, I have tried the other 'way' a fair bit too, like a few years in the mid-80ies with a yuppie kinda lifestyle and just a couple of years ago I still owned a huge house + barn (an older farm house without all the acres of land that once came with it) I voluntarily 'sized down' simply because all this 'stuff' isn't really me and it takes way too much energy and effort to maintain.

Quote from: CharlieJ on July 13, 2010, 08:55:12 PM
ROFL !!

Frank-53? Just a kid. Wait'll you hit 69 and are wondering where life went.






CJ...I was driving down main street the other day and saw a guy I went to school with and thought "wow...he's getting old looking"........then I looked in the rear view mirror   :-\

Quote from: Captain Smollett on July 13, 2010, 09:48:04 PM

Quote from: Frank on July 13, 2010, 05:40:08 PM

I'm saddened that so many people in our culture are convinced that "without" is somehow less living, when my own experiences with "without," as Frank says above, are some of the richest of my life's experiences.  Having realized that, we now pursue "without" in some areas of our lives rather actively (ie, no running water) and almost daily talk about ways to increase our "without."

)

I started my adult life wandering with a horse hitched to a wagon and I thought it was already too much, I initally wanted to just ride the horse with my gear, but the friend I travelled with thought it would be easier with more stuff. Well it was not, but anyway I learned early to do without much; and the next adventure was riding horses in Brazil with barely nothing. The transition to life on a boat was a luxury, and I started to gather a little bit more stuff, but a wreck and total loss of the boat taught me a lesson : do not get attached to objects, pictures, books, etc. keep your best memories stored in your head ready to share with anyone who wants to hear. I even learnt not to get too attached to a boat , since I lost the second one in a divorce. Sometimes I even think I should have kept on with a backpack and a good pair of shoes ;)
The more you have, the more you are scared to loose it, so you do not take risks; you just follow the stream like everybody else.  By doing that, you just pass by the best places and turn down the best adventures.

Just read that 1/3rd of all used car loans are now made for 72 months or more!  The same source says the average payment is around $500   :o

If that is to be believed, is it possible that 1/3rd of folks buying used cars are paying $36,000 over 5 years... For a USED car!!!

Insane.

$500?
Pfffffftttttt..... that's nothing...... you should see what they're paying for used houses...   ;D

I don't get the whole car debt thing either. I have never had a brand new car, and don't really want one.

My brother bought a new 2004 Pontiac GTO when they first came out. It was his first new car, he had always had used cars before that.

He paid over $500 a month with payments and full coverage insurance, and it was a 36 month lease!  :o
I asked him why he didn't just get a nice, old muscle car for less. (Like a real GTO!)
His reasoning was that everything was covered under warranty, and if he blew the engine or tranny, he wouldn't have to pay to have it replaced.

He paid over $18,000 to not have to worry about replacing the engine? It's not like he doesn't know how, we used to replace engines all the time when we were younger, and we raced a lot.  :D

But at the end of the lease, he paid a down payment of several thousand, plus over $18,000 in payments for something that he didn't even own! Then at the end of the lease, he bought the car, and he's still making payments! He never did have engine or transmission problems either...so much for the warranty! (Now, he doesn't even have the warranty.) He's put around $60,000 into it so far, and doesn't really like it that much anymore, but he's stuck with it since he can't afford to buy another car right now. That $60K could have bought him his dream car with money left over for gas and repairs!

On the other hand, in 2006, I bought a running '67 Cougar for $2,500. I put another $2,000 or so into it in parts, and did all the labor myself. 2 years later, I had a head turning classic that is completely paid for. Now, it's still my daily driver, and it gets admired everywhere I go.  ;D

I think of all the things I could do with that $60,000, like going cruising for a long time, being worry-free financially!

FWIW,

  My current ride is a 97 GMC Safari.  I can sleep comfortably in the back while hauling a dingy and an outboard.  I pretty much boughtitwith change I found in the dryer.

Two cruisers I know...

  Ok, one cruising couple and one "used-to-be-cruiser".

The coupe, are headed to the Dominican Republic right now.  They are headed there because they can live on his (not very large) pension.  Their boat is paid for, comfortable and well maintained.  It is a bit large by sailfar standards, but they mostly use the spare space to provision in bulk where it is cheap and to participate in a couple of side businesses they make extra money with.  They buy things were they are cheap, and do not spend more then they take in.  They have been cruising since 2004, and while they have never left the Carib / East US they consider their life to be full and cherish the experiences they have had.

The other cruiser was aboard for more then 10 years, but now is living ashore and trying to make money.

She was a well compensated corporate executive, she left her position with a significant severance.  She elected to purchase her boat new, and bought it using a mortgage.  She could service the debt and cruise comfortably on the income she had from investing her severance and other investments.

Hers was a popular brand of boat, well regarded and only 2 feet longer then the other couple.  She had learned to do basic maintenance, but preferred to pay others to do it for her.  She liked marinas, and spent the majority of her time in marinas.

When the market dipped, she saw a decrease in her dividends..  But could still service the debt.  She had excellent ground tackle, and a substantial electric windlass but did not care to anchor out.  She made several modifications to the boat over the years, and while the work was done in reputable boat yards the work often had to be revisited multiple times.

The boat had multiple systems, dual refrigeration.. Large freezer, multi zone air conditioning and a large generator.  I believe she had a water maker but I am not sure.

She once told a friend of mine while on a trip to the Exumas that she had not unfurled the jib in over a year.

The same friend spent 2 weeks aboard, waiting for a part for the generator (iirc, could have been the water maker). 

She has the boat up for sale, and has decided that cruising is simply too expensive. 


Now there might be a tendency to read "she" and to read of her background and think she was at some disadvantage due to her background and gender...  I say no.  I have met some VERY competent and capable women Sailors.. And firmly believe that anyone can accomplish basic maintenance tasks with persistence and some instruction.

Quote from: s/v Faith on January 25, 2014, 02:38:51 PM



Now there might be a tendency to read "she" and to read of her background and think she was at some disadvantage due to her background and gender...  I say no.  I have met some VERY competent and capable women Sailors.. And firmly believe that anyone can accomplish basic maintenance tasks with persistence and some instruction.

Definitely agree. I know several extremely capable cruising women, who single hand, and do most, if not all of the work on their boats themselves.

I know three who are Coast guard licensed Captains

It's not gender- it's state of mind.