sailFar.net

A voyage that didn't go too well...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,241117,00.html

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/california/la-me-sailor5jan05,1,7716388.story?coll=la-headlines-pe-california

http://www.saratogian.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=17673620&BRD=1169&PAG=461&dept_id=17708&rfi=6

It will be interesting to follow this story.  After all, isn't the prevailing wisdom that a 45 foot steel ketch is the perfect RTW vessel?  The story will unfold, I hope, to tell us about preparation of the vessel and the skipper, suitability of the craft, and lessons learned.

(Edit: I split this post off into it's own thread for 2 reasons: The links will probably not be permanent, and mostly because I think that there is a lot of possible discussion material here, especially in light of this part:

QuoteAfter all, isn't the prevailing wisdom that a 45 foot steel ketch is the perfect RTW vessel?

- CapnK)

My favorite quote from the FoxNews link:

Quote from: the girlfriend

We need someone out there right away to get to him

I wish him well, but I sure don't like that attitude.

Surprising how much media attention this story is getting.

I tell you one thing, the guy didn't skimp on navigation electronics, especially considering he wasn't planning to make landfall anywhere.

From the website

http://kensolo.com/

"Her electronics and gear below decks are mostly new. The equipment list includes: Autopilot-Raymarine SG3, Windvane-Hydrovane, Wind Generators - (2) Marine Air, Windspeed/dir-Raymarine, Radar-Raymarine, Log Speed Depth, GPS-Dataline, SSB- Icom, Modem-Pactor III, Steering-Whitlock, main computer-laptop with the CAP'N Charting and Garmin handheld GPS Map 76 with backup laptop. 2nd computer with duplicate GPS and charting software, 3 backup Garmin handheld GPS's, 1 Dual Radar Monitor in salon, Iridium Satellite phone with data kit, 14 new AGM batteries, 4.5 kw Perkins generator and a 16 gph water maker. This is by no means a complete list of all the systems and gear aboard. Just a brief overview of the types of equipment."

"Prevailing wisdom" in the slick sailing rags, maybe. Or is that an oxymoron, to use the word 'wisdom' in association with what are, at their most fundamental level, elegantly crafted sales tools?  ::)

My impressions come from reading the information posted at his website, the pre-trip information, some statements in the press/interviews with him, and from the 'logs' posted as he traveled. This information is far from being in-depth or factually complete, I know, so of course what I wonder is at the present time simple speculation. Take the following with several grains of wondering salt. :)

I am interested to see what shakes out of this story, beside the book/movie deals... ;) I most look forward to getting hard info on what led up to the dismasting and etc... My guess is that basically he was running, broached, and rolled. As the Pardeys put it in their book "Storm Tactics" (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0964603667/102-3373829-3217701?ie=UTF8&tag=sailfarnet-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=1789&creativeASIN=0964603667) (also on DVD (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000F9UEES/102-3373829-3217701?ie=UTF8&tag=sailfarnet-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=1789&creativeASIN=B000F9UEES)), running before a gale has been much promoted as the most popular storm tactic for a number of years, but if things are not done exactly right (or if they go at all wrong), what happened to Ken and "Privateer" is the not-at-all-unusual outcome.

Some other salient points which stood out to me in what I have read:

Many stories express as fact that he has sailed for 30+/- years, yet in an interview he himself claims not to have any bluewater experience.

I was somewhat amazed at his surprise and chagrin that he couldn't get his boat to sail well to windward, and that he was not aware of this before setting out and down into the SoPac. If it were me, I would have been well aware of the sailing characteristics of my vessel in all conditions long before setting out to round the Horn.  *Especially* before setting out to round the Horn. :o :D

This may in part have come from his lack of sailing experience (regardless of the amount of time between when he started sailing, and the beginning of this trip) - I have seen many times people who do/did know how to sail were still inexperienced enough to, for lack of a better way to put it, know how to *really* sail. It is hard for me to describe this concept, but by way of illustration: Boats are all different from each other, and where with one you may be able to come off a tack as if it were on rails and immediately make headway to windward, other boats you have to let fall off a ways to build up a head of steam before coaxing them up slowly to where they will sail high on the wind. If your experience is only with the 'rails' boat, it will take you some time to discover how to make the other type of boat work to its best advantage. I wonder if this scenario, or something similar, might somewhat describe what was going on with Ken having trouble getting "Privateer" to point.

That said, he mentions that part of his preparation of the boat was to remove her bilge keels (as they wouldn't really aid him during the trip, which was supposed to be all-offshore). Most of the boats I have seen which feature bilge keels are shallow drafted boats, compromised more towards sailing skinny water than tuned for making ground to windward. Perhaps the lack was only in the boat itself. Thorough sea trials would (should) have shown him this prior to departure.

A couple of other things -

Ken relates that he turns downwind in order to drop his main. I have never heard of anyone else doing this.

As the list C'Pete posted seems to point out, gadgets won't save you, even if you have multiples of every conceivable gadget. When it gets really bad, the true value of gadgets seems to fall far, far down the list of the tools you really need to cope with what has happened. Some gadgets may come in handy, but the greatest resource you have IMO is yourself and the knowledge you have prepared yourself with. Cap'n Bligh didn't have much in the way of gadgets at all during an 8,000 mile open-boat journey. ;)

The fact that Ken would sleep with 'ear muffs' on in order to quiet out the noises of boat and sea has been much brought up in the discussion of this incident. This is something I do not see as being good at all, and in fact is what Ken himself attributes for likely having been the reason he sailed into a storm just prior to his Dec. 28th log.

He wrote that his roller snarling seemed to be unwinding his forestay, which was also loose early in the trip. Um... fix that - both things! :) I wonder if this led to weakening of the rig, which in turn was a contributing factor in the dismasting? Whether it was a factor will probably never be known for sure.

Last for now, here is a story which well illustrates why it is that I want my boat to be 'boat as a liferaft': What if, along with all the other various and sundry electronics, his EPIRB and satphone quit working or were lost when the boat was so badly damaged, taking on water and in danger of sinking? Where would he be then? Abandoning ship into a liferaft at those latitudes, he would not have survived adrift for long at all, I'd wager. Whereas, if the boat could _not_ sink, even adrift you would have all the stores and tools at your disposal to effect a self-rescue, or at least a much longer term survival. Or perhaps just to get the boat heaved-to for protection in the many, many storms of the 40's and 50's. You would be just much more able to try and survive to sail again on another day than you would in a liferaft.

Lest I seem overly critical of Ken, let me say that I really admire his cojones and drive to realize his dreams, and would love to have the opportunity to buy him a beer or several, hear all about his trip, and mutually swap surfing, windsurfing, and sailing lies, er - stories with him sometime... ;D

I am very glad he is home safe and that the outcome of the whole incident was a happy one.  8)

Yes, a happy ending.

Only wish I could have been there to comfort Ken's twin 21 year old daughters throughout the ordeal

(http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20070105/capt.cadd11001051556.sailor_adrift_cadd110.jpg?x=380&y=253&sig=d_mM8oOX4ui_t0i62MkIdA--)

Quote from: CapnK on January 05, 2007, 12:05:24 PM

Abandoning ship into a liferaft at those latitudes, he would not have survived adrift for long at all, I'd wager. Whereas, if the boat could _not_ sink, even adrift you would have all the stores and tools at your disposal to effect a self-rescue, or at least a much longer term survival. Or perhaps just to get the boat heaved-to for protection in the many, many storms of the 40's and 50's. You would be just much more able to try and survive to sail again on another day than you would in a liferaft.

Haven't there been a bunch of USCG and/or similar reports that say most of the time, people abandon way too early?  The "rule" I've often heard was you stick with the boat until you have to step UP into the liferaft.  The obvious exception, of course, would be if she is literally going down too fast to make that practical.   :o

A dismasted sailboat seems a LOT safer to stick with than a puny little liferaft.  Many a jury rig has been constructed after conditions abate that have allowed the vessel to return to port on it's own.  One of the other disturbing things about this story, to me at least, was the emphasis that his ENGINE had failed.  Okay...so what?  It's a sailboat.  As CB over on TSBB likes to say, "it's a sailboat FIRST."  He had broken hatches (fixable) and was taking on water (maybe fixable...are there details yet as to if he even tried?).

My question, a general one and not intended to armchair quarterback this particular case specifically, what do you guys think not only about his calling for help, but WHEN he called for help?  Was his life really in iminent danger - to the point that endangering others was even remotely justified?

Sorry if I seem proselytizing - this is a discussion in which I am really interested.

He was running under mizzen, broached, and rolled. It swept his decks clean.

http://a.media.abcnews.com/podcasts/070105kenbarnes_phoner.mp3

Afterwards, lying to a drogue (not sure if from bow or stern, but would wager stern) he was OK.

+ Points to the Pardeys "Storm tactics" techniques. ;)

I can't get over the earmuff thing !!  Motessier wrote that a sailor's most valuable sence is hearing....more useful than even sight. You can hear changes in the water slapping the hull,changes in wind,sails flapping,etc. He would even take down sails when approaching a reef at night to listen for breakers. I was twice awoken by water stopping it's slapping on the hull to find the boat dragging anchor.......earmuffs...NOT !  Calls for help should be a last resort after ALL available remedies have been tried and your life is at risk. We all have panicked at times but I think 'most' sailors have enough pride to try everything 1st. Gotta be a hard call to make. Fact is too many call too soon...costing the coastguard time,money and possibly putting the coast guard at risk OR tieing them up when another craft needs them more.  Hopefully none of us will be put to that test.

Anybody remember Beryl and Miles Smeeton? Rolled and dismasted in those same waters a number of years ago- Read about Beryl's determination in this thread from CSBB on this same subject-

http://www.cs-bb.com/forums/CSBB/index.cgi?read=73798i

The times, they sure are a changing, and perhaps NOT for the better. Who's to say though.

Quote from: Cmdr Pete on January 05, 2007, 01:26:27 PM

Only wish I could have been there to comfort Ken's twin 21 year old daughters throughout the ordeal

I don't know, Pete...it seems like after this "ordeal" they might not take to sailors very well...  ;D

Greetings.  I thought this event would be a little blip on the radar and of only passing interest to sailors.  How wrong I was.  Thanks for moving the thread to its own place.

Onthe trip this fall, we encountered conditions similar to what are reported by the story.  After all, that Beneteau 352 took pretty good care of us.  Not our first choice for a voyaging yacht but not so bad in retorspect.

Elizabeth and I have just had a chance to watch some of the video, etc.  Her observation:  "Gee, Norm, if you get to go away sailing I'll have to get some clevage."  We think it looks very staged or polished.  Who hoo!

There was some story about a woman who was nearby-ish in another yacht.  Any word on what type she is sailing?  An interesting compare and contrast opportunity.

As an aside.  Boston is looking at 60+ degrees F tomorrow.  Saturday saililng on the harbor will be stunning.  Maybe I will figure out how to put pictures up.  A fun diversion.

Best to all,
Norman

Quote from: Norm on January 05, 2007, 09:26:15 PM

There was some story about a woman who was nearby-ish in another yacht.  Any word on what type she is sailing?  An interesting compare and contrast opportunity.

That would be Donna Lange on a Southern Cross 28 (http://www.donnalange.com/).  I'm not sure 'nearby' is the correct term...not close enough to effect rescue, anyway, from what I gathered.

Norm -

To me, one of the *most* interesting things is that nearby (~150 miles) there was indeed a woman, Donna Lange, who is circumnavigating aboard her Southern Cross 28. She weathered the same storm as that which proved the downfall of "Privateer", apparently none the worse for wear. I think that there is probably a GREAT lesson in here for folk like us, once we get the chance to compare and contrast the two tales.

I mean: What was it that the person on the 'generally accepted as proper for "true" bluewater voyaging' 44' steel boat didn't do right, that the person on the 'small' 28' cruiser did do right? Will we ever see this lesson written about in the sailing rags? My guess: Only if a writer for the rags sees this post or similar, and is somewhat 'guilted' into an admission in print that you don't need a big boat to be a safe, successful bluewater voyager, which would fly contrary to popular advertising myth. The chances of that happening would be near the same as "Privateer" being salvaged. ;D

Thus proving that the "sailFar concept" is something that has perhaps gone too far overlooked.

We are not here to say "Smaller is Better". What we are saying is that the size of the boat is basically irrelevant, that a larger boat *does not* guarantee safe passage, or even safer passage.

That the size of the boat is merely a matter of perception.

OK, I am getting preachy. Time for me to shut up... lol ;D

CJ - The Smeetons faced a challenge *much* tougher than did Kensolo. Their accomplishment is truly one of great seamanship. We should salute them, and are. :)

Last - Norm, the matching outfits and very high-media-profile suggest the same to me. Though "Privateer" may have gone upside down, I would be willing to bet that the Barnes family finances are now very unlikely to do the same... ;)

(Edit: John beat me on the D Lange factoid - Grog! lol)

Quote from: CapnK on January 05, 2007, 09:56:57 PM

What was it that the person on the 'generally accepted as proper for "true" bluewater voyaging' 44' steel boat didn't do right, that the person on the 'small' 28' cruiser did do right?

Kurt,

While I emphatically agree with both your post and your philosophy, I would offer that sometimes, SOMETIMES, it is not a matter of what WE did that was right or wrong.  I once read that a successful blue water passage always involves some amount of luck.  In keeping with your point later in the post, I believe that statement applies no matter the size of the vessel - from wee singlehander to aircraft carrier (though perhaps in different proportions).

I think what you wrote earlier was right on the money, though.  To a point, we make our own luck (through training, diligence, experience, and general mindset).  Ken did not know his vessel - and therefore at the very least lacked the confidence that she could ride out those conditions (or the knowledge that she could not).

Stupid Analogy: I have a friend who is an excellent shot with a rifle.  I've personal knowledge of him doing amazing things (grouped a smaller-than-one inch pair of shots on a running deer at 585 years in a 30 mph cross wind, for example - I heard the shots from my stand and helped drag the deer).  There may be some inborn talent there, but I think it is more a matter of practice and through that practice, the quiet confidence that he will succeed.  As Yoda said, "there is do or do not; there is no try."

The fact that he carried so much electronic gadgetry also belies a general lack of confidence in personal abilities -  from Pete's quote of his site:

• Two computers, one loaded with The CAP'N, the other with unspecified charting software
• Main GPS with not ONE but THREE backup GPS's
• ssb AND satellite phone, and both appeared to have datalinks
• not one, but TWO wind generators (I guess those 14 AGM batts get pretty thirsty for juice)

The first two tell me he was totally uneasy with 'traditional' nav techniques like celestial and ded reckoning for navigation and the Mark I Eyeball for pilotage.  (Does anyone know if he carried a sextant...I've not browsed his site).  These items should, imnsho, be aboard for convenience (if at all), but not for reliance.

If there is one point this story emphasizes in my mind, it is that you can buy neither preparedness nor the kind of mental attitude that comes with the confidence that YOU are prepared. In other words, you can spend money to prepare the boat, but that does nothing to prepare your mind to meet the challenges you face.  If anything, it may give a false confidence that the gear is all it takes.

Forget where I saw this but it suits the current conversation ... "thee most important item onboard a blue water boat is a knowledgable captain"......my take on it..." it's not the size of the boat..but the boater" ;D

Greetings all:
When I first read about the unfolding drama of Kensolo I thought, another guy out there in a boat that's too big.  My "conventional wisdom" crack on post number one was directed towards that end.  As I cruise around one thing that strikes me is how seldom the big boats go out and often the little ones do.

do vs do not?

And, the darn big boat gear is broken all the time, to boot. 

I want to hear from LD and her Southern Cross 28.  She was right about being too far away to help.  One hundred and fifty miles to windward is a long haul, maybe three days.  Her trip may be "long" compared to a bigger boat's... but so far, she's still going.  You can't sail a broken boat!

What struck us, Elizabeth and me, was reaching under mizzen in a storm.  No main storm tysail or main staysail?  I cannot imagine storm-reaching with a mizzen at all unless the main mast was down.  Very bad judgement, it seems,  but I must wait until Kensolo tells his story in more detail.  ($$)

Our experience leads us to storm-reach under a small jib sheeted to an outboard lead.  On EasyGo (the Beneteau 352 of this Fall's adventure) we did so successfully for days.    We wantedthe sail  to "tow" the boat rather than "push" it.  Even so, we broached hard occasionally.  Once a wave is big enough to roll a boat beyond, say, 30 deg the boat rounds up on its own.  Rudders don't steer at those high angles.  Other forces take over.

I recall Smeeton's analysis about broaching and pitchpolling:  the rudder works in reverse during part of each wave.  Bigger waves, longer period of counter steering.  Last night at dinner, E & I talked about a period when EG was almost impossible to steer by rudder in big breaking waves from the quarter but the sail trim kept her pointed in the generally correct direction.

As a storm tactic in beam to close reaching wind directions, we "fore-reach."  A sweet tactic.  Double reefed main or storm trysail sheeted hard.  Wheel locked.  Watch keeper sheltered behing the dodger.  Boat bobs along at a knot or two and the crew below can sleep, eat, relax.  Storms pass.

Good sharing observations and thoughts with all.  Thanks.

Norm

Great read everyone, can't wait to hear Ken's story.
So...I guess he just left the boat out there. From the pictures it didn't look like it was in danger of going under any time soon. Any thoughts?

(http://www.kensolo.com/Images/Rescue/13.jpg)

-Kevin

The more I see/read of this...the more I doubt the guy's ability. I didn't think a sinking boat would show it's waterline stripe so well !!

Also, it looks like there is a enough stump of the main mast to rig a jury sail. Maybe lash on what appears to be the mizzen boom (or part of the mizzen mast) lying across the cockpit, there, to extend the mast a bit, hoist a main loose fitting and something of a jib.  Looks like he still has mainsail and jib lashed to the deck, so he's got canvas (even if there is none stowed below).

Again, I offer not to play armchair saiilor on HIS decision, but simply to discuss options.  I'm in no position to critiize him personally, as I've never been in those conditions (handled my 18 ft er in over 30 kts of wind, but in protected waters, not the open sea...I've never been dismasted nor taking on water to the extent I assume he was).  If it seems like I am contemporizing, so be it.  I'd have no answer for the challenge "but you weren't there."

First off... having all that redundancy in navigation gear doesn't really mean much unless you've got the sailing skills and experience to take advantage of it.  While his website says things about himself, the boat and his intended voyage... it says little about his actual sailing experience. 

Personally, I'd rather and do have a sextant and navigation tables as a backup.  Even though my sextant using skills are a bit weak, they will improve, and there is no need for complicated electronics.  I have two watches—one solar powered and the other a self-winding automatic—aside from the one I wear (also solar powered), on the boat for use for sight times, and these are checked against a radio or internet time check once a month.

I think part of the problem Ken may have had is that the boat is rather large for single handing, even if it is a ketch.  Single handed sailing takes far more skill than does sailing with an experienced crew, where there is some redundancy of skills and a chance to catch mistakes made by a person by the rest of the crew.  Electronics and electric winches are dependent on battery power, which is barely reliable on a small sailboat. 

Unfortunately, the current boating press has lead a lot of people to believe that a lot of expensive gear is necessary to sail long voyages, but that hasn't ever been true.  It has also led a lot of people to think that you need to have a large (40'+) boat to be a safe bluewater passage maker—yet it was only in the past two decades that boats that large have become really common among long-distance cruisers.  If you look at most of the sailing magazines, the boats they advocate as being "bluewater passagemakers" are all 40'+ long and cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. 

Part of the problem is the economics of building sailboats.  Small sailboats, especially well-built ones that are capable of bluewater passages, are far less profitable than larger boats.  Part of the problem is the current use of most sailboats as a "summer home", by people who don't want to just own a beachfront condo.  However, most of these people don't intend on sailing their boat much past the next marina and want to have most, if not all, of the comforts of home—stereo, satellite TV, coffee maker, microwave oven, running hot and cold water, etc... most of which are luxuries, not necessities.

Also, Ken's description of his storm tactics leads me to believe that he had never tried these under less rigorous conditions.  On another sailing board, I was asked how do you get heavy weather sailing experience... my answer was that you go out in bad weather... under conditions that are worse than you would prefer to sail in, but not so extreme as to risk life and limb, and practice your technique and tactics.  One piece of storm gear I have is a Jordan Series Drogue.  I hope never to need it, but I would recommend it for anyone making a bluewater passage, especially on a smaller sailboat.

The idea of muffling your senses while at sea just strikes me as foolhardy.  Often, when I'm aboard the PG, I know that the wind has shifted just from the change in the motion or sound of the the boat.  I've be awakened from a sound sleep when the sounds of the boat changed due to another boat enter the anchorage I was in.

Another question I have is how much "shakedown" experience did he have with this boat.  What kind of conditions and voyages did he take the boat out in, prior to attempting to round the cape?  Also, did he consult with a marine engineer to check what effect on the boat's stability removing the bilge keels would have??

So many questions... so few answers.

Frank-

BTW, I don't think the boat was actually sinking or in danger of sinking.  From what I read, he was going to scuttle the boat...and you don't generally have to scuttle a boat that is sinking... I think his main problem was that he had no masts or sails and no way to move the boat, as the engine and batteries were all damaged during the storm, probably from the water that did get in the hull.  But I don't think the hull was holed in any way or that she was taking on water after the end of the storm.

It does not look like this boat is sinking at all to me!
Seems more like a case of panic. Ofcourse I was not there, but other than a broken mast, I see no signs of trouble. This a famous story about a couple who were demast and still sailed there boat home, looking much worse than this picture. I wonder what Neil would like of this, having to bail most of the way across the Atlantic.
Did this person even try to hand bail his boat? Although from the water line it does not seem to have taken on a substanual amount. On the other hand, being out there alone in the middle of everything, coming out of a strom that broke his mast, thing would seem pretty bleak.
I wonder did he do any offshore sailing to get some knowleage on what to do?
He could have taken a ASA  ocean passage class that would have covered all kinds of things for less than half what, half of that equipment he did not need or use cost.
IMHO

Quote from: K3v1n on January 06, 2007, 09:44:17 AM
Great read everyone, can't wait to hear Ken's story.
So...I guess he just left the boat out there. From the pictures it didn't look like it was in danger of going under any time soon. Any thoughts?

(http://www.kensolo.com/Images/Rescue/13.jpg)

-Kevin

Size matters.  
There was an old rule of thumb that a couple can handle a 20,000 lb sailboat and less than 1,000 square feet of sail.  Above those numbers the physics of sailing vessels begin to work against the sailors.  Ken was certainly pushing it with Privateer.  The Shannon 28 is a good counter point.

A pal of mine, Tom, works in a boat yard where they serviced the Westsail 32 featured in the Perfect Storm.  Tom knows the guy.  Must have a chat with W32-guy in the context of this drama.

The remarkable thing about the super-singlehanders on their open 50s and 60s is that they demonstrate how one breaks the 20,000/1,000 rule.  Money and practice!

Some years ago, the Pardy's wrote about doubling Cape horn in their little boat.  It was in Cruising World magazine, I recall.  Anyone know the issue?  

Adrift At Sea makes the point about training in heavy air.  It really does make sense and need not be "risky business."  (As if sailing isn't....)  

At BSC, we train sailors in whatever weather there is available during the courses.  Sometimes it is rough.  The trainees love it since they get to practice heavy weather steering, reefing, and changing headsails in real conditions.  Instructors always drill these skills before cruising.  Oftentimes it is in placid conditions of Boston Harbor.  We probably look a bit odd reefing Melissa in summer calms.  I pays off.

Ocean training courses.  The ASA has a standard (I am an ASA Evaluator Instructor through Advanced Cruising).  It is hard to find and expensive.  Some companies such as Ocean Pasage Oportunities (http://www.sailopo.com/narc_stories.html) does some work along those lines. 

The problem I have with teaching ocean passagemaking is that so much depends upon the crew as individuals and as a team.  Personal preparation is SO very critical to learning.  I, as an instructor, have no control over how "you" prepare yourself.  If "you" do a lousy job, I have to alter curriculum to work around that.  It is a complicated course... if anyone cares about the mechanics of that.

Anyone with a sailboat can practice any drill in light conditions.  At the very least one will learn how to rig the gear, what is in need of adjustment or relocation, etc.  No better way to spice up an otherwise dull sailing day!

Back to the story.  The boat suffered an awful lot of damage in a short time.  Odd.  Still flaoting high.  Salvage.  What do we think the bill will be from the Chilean Navy and the fishing vessel?  Ken had better crank up the pool business again!

I think he's lucky the boat broke where it did.

Norman

ANYONE trying to 'round the horn' should treat it like an expedition. Well prepared,well planned, trained and experienced.  This almost sounds like a midlife crisis...enough $$$ to 'pay' for his vision of being prepared (electronics) and GO.  Yep...I'm also suffering a bit of 'mid life crisis' turning 50.....BUT I ain't going out to buy the best pair of mountain boots there is and a great tent thinking I can climb Everest !!!    Besides..with my 6pack turning into a full keg, I wouldn't make to base camp!!   Zen...I was also thinking that it 'appeared' to be enough lying there for a jury rig of sorts...but as ya said 'we weren't there'

Quote from: Norm on January 06, 2007, 11:48:31 AM

Anyone with a sailboat can practice any drill in light conditions.  At the very least one will learn how to rig the gear, what is in need of adjustment or relocation, etc.  No better way to spice up an otherwise dull sailing day!

Norm, you ever read Trailer Sailor Bulletin Board (TSBB)?

You'd be surprised the number of small boat sailors who (comments do not apply to ALL on TSBB by any stretch - but enough that I've noticed the trend):

• don't know how to reef, don't practice it, don't care to learn
• claim their comfort level for sailing is anything under 10 kts - think no one should sail a 'small boat' in over 15 kts, and 10-15 is the heavy stuff.

Earlier in the year, I wrote a few instructional "emails" for a friend of mine new to sailing.  Along with recommending some good starter books (such as Jobson's ASA related book), I gave him some terminology, points of sail, that sort of thing (the stuff you CAN explain in a book or written message).  Then I took him sailing, and once we motored out of the cove, gave him the tiller.

Well, while writing up this set up emails for him, I was trying to come up with a good contrast between cruisers and racers.  I came to the simple conclusion that cruisers and racers, those "serious" about either, have more in common than differences, but there is a third type of sailor about which we seldom hear.  I called it them the "sport" sailors.  I'm talking about attitudes, not gear or goals.

In my mind, both cruisers and racers are always trying to learn, improve and perfect.  They will innovate for their own boats and circumstances.  Both know, in principle, the Rules of the Road and apply them.  I easily find the term "seaman" can apply to sailors that focus on either cruising or racing.

But folks in my third class, the 'sportsters,' are only in it for the fun of the moment.  They refer to sailing as a hobby - it is something they are interested in today, in lieu of a other pasttimes tried and given-up on.  They bely no desire to learn terminology (which, imo is VERY important on board a boat for when things get dicey - you need to communciate specific things in a hurry), will now at most maybe two useful knots (and argue others are never needed, a waste of energy to learn), 'the Rules of the Road don't apply to me, I'm a lake sailor,' and a whole host of unseamanlike behaviors.  They'll NEVER sail in the rain, and they won't even think about venturing out in conditions less than "relaxing" - ever.

These are the ones that criticize 'real' sailors for 'sailing.'  These 'sport sailors' would parrot the sailing rags and say "no way, that's just dumb" to any notion of a blue water passage (or even in some circumstances, relatively mild coastal cruising) in whatever they deem is a small boat.  I was once heavily criticized for even asking if anyone with a boat identical to mine had taken, or would consider taking, their boat from Key West to the Dry Tortugas.  The boat is similar to WWP19 (which has made crossing to Bahamas and from CA to HI) and M-17 (one of the toughest "little" small boats around), so I figured it was a fair question.  I was told I was stupid to even consider it.

My point is that this 'sport' group is large and spends a lot of money in the sailing industry.  They have a voice.  Sometimes, I think they have a bigger voice than we do.  But for me, I'll take the opinions of the Hiscocks and the Pardeys with a little more seriousness.  The conventional wisdom on boat-size and necessary gear has been proven wrong sufficiently often that I personally don't see how it could be called conventional or wisdom.

{rant off}

I thought I read that he'd cut his thigh down to the bone!!?  With significant loss of blood and possibly the impaired use of a leg, that would make a very big difference compared to just being shook up and scared.

Oded Kishony

I came across this list of wind speeds some time ago.

Light Air(0-5 knots)
Light to Medium Air(6-12 knots)
Medium to Heavy Air(13-18 knots)
Heavy Air(19+ knots)

PS.
A Com-Pac 16 sailed to the Marquesas Keys, a little bit more and your at the Dry Tortuga's. I believe it is something like 75 miles or so.

(http://biega.com/tortugas.jpg)

Why not?
After I gain a bit more experience we'll have to team up, your Skipper's Mate and my CP19.

-Kevin

Quote from: K3v1n on January 06, 2007, 03:19:05 PM

After I gain a bit more experience we'll have to team up, your Skipper's Mate and my CP19.

I'm ready; just say the word.  A "fleet" of under twenty footers going out of sight of land - GASP.

lol- Captain Smollett- Those you refer to as "sport sailors" are likely the same group I call "motor sailors"

Motor out to the middle, raise sails, sail back and forth, drop sails and motor back in. And if it gets ANY kind of rough, dump those nasty old sails and crank that motor.

Some of us keep trying to tell them, the motor is gonna get you in trouble- learn to SAIL the boat.

Seemingly to no avail with part of them Some DO listen though. SOME will transition to become "seamen"

Gotta admit- there are some darn fine sailors on that board

Quote from: CharlieJ on January 06, 2007, 05:02:15 PM

Gotta admit- there are some darn fine sailors on that board

Indeed, and my comments were directed at a specific minority on that board.  I've noticed this attitude on other boards and at the club in which I used to be a member.

Hello all:
One of the benefits, if you will, of the kensolo adventure is that E & I have some excellent context for our discussions about boats to consider (and those not to...).  Associated with kensolo is his perfect counterpart:  The Donna Lang story is interesting.  Next payday, I think I will slip her a contribution. 

Our paths crossed, I read, too bad I never met her when we were both in the Caribbean.  It is a big place.

Met lots of other interesting folk who are small craft sailors.  One guy I will never forget.  He sailed into St Maarten's Simpson Bay one morning in January 2005 aboard a tiny sloop with the German flag painted on the wind vane.  New arrivals are not uncommon there but his boat was SO much smaller than everything else, I motored over in my dinghy to say Hi.  A big grin and some broken English about a 30 day trip from Aruba, upwind in light air.  The good news, he'd learned a bunch of news tunes on his guitar and was  ready to get some gigs at warterfront bars (they feed the singers.  sensible career choice?)  He did fine.

I'm thinking: The DL story is the one I'm following.

Best, Norman

Donna Lange's story is pretty amazing, and she is an inspiration to all of us sailfar philosophy sailors. 

I've taken the Pretty Gee out on many days where there was a "small craft advisory" to work on my heavy wind skills, only to have my friends at the marina tell me when I got back, "Dan, you know your boat is technically a small craft." 

Voyaging on a sailboat takes a lot more than just getting the boat in shape.  The captain and crew has to be in shape and have the skills and the experience to handle whatever the sea throws at them, and know the boat well enough to handle the unforseen happening.

I can understand why Ken asked to be taken off of his boat... no sails, no working diesel, no rudder, and a storm system on its way in.   But it sounds to me that the boat was too large for his ability to single-hand in storm conditions, unlike Donna and her Southern Cross.  It also sounds like his storm survival techniques and experience sailing in such conditions left a fair amount to be desired.

Norm's point about the single-handing of the Open 50's & 60's, as well as the experiences of sailors like Ellen McArthur and Dee Caffari, is very valid. They have several major advantages over people like Ken.  The first is experience—years of it, in all sorts of conditions on many different types of boats.  The second are skills.  The third is the financial wherewithal to properly prepare and equip a boat....they spend hundred's of thousands, if not millions of dollars to get their boats into the proper configuration to do what they do.  The fourth is support—they have full-time assistance available via long-distance communications.

Single-handing around the world in small sailing craft, on a low-budget, is going to have a fairly significant share of risks.  Doing so without proper preparation of the the sailor as well as the craft will make those risks much larger.

Here is the old ad for Ken's boat.

http://www.seeboats.com/boatlisting.cfm?intBoats_ID=5508&show_results=1&startrow=1451&show_results=1&sort=DESC#

I stumbled on the ad looking for a line drawing for the boat. Just seemed odd that a 50,000 lb. boat would draw 5' 6"

I don't know

(http://www.seeboats.com/boat_images/5508_4007.jpg)

Nice marketing copy, given the hindsight how things went:

Quote
...Hummingbird ... will take you and your mate to the ends of the earth in safety, comfort, and simple elegance. This bullet-proof little ship was designed ... and built ... to represent the ultimate shorthanded cruising vessel with a particular affinity for heavy weather. ... she is ... ready to sail any ocean.

Of course, maybe all that was true - at one time.  We know Ken removed the bilge keels - what other seaworthiness mods did he make?

I noticed that the ballast, with the bilge keels was only 12000 lbs. out of 39000.  Removing the bilge keels obviously lowered this number.  I doubt that the boat had even 29% ballast by weight at that point—which strikes me as being a fairly low percentage for a bluewater boat.  Ken's website also states that the boat was about 50,000 lbs when fully loaded for cruising...which brings the actual ballast percentage down to 22.4% or so. 

To give an idea of what other bluewater sailboats in that size range have:

A Hallberg-Rassy 43 has 35.5% for ballast;
a Island Packet 440 has 37.5% for ballast;
the Windbird (http://www.handleysail.com/about.html) (a Tayana 42) has 40.5% for ballast;
a Whitby 42 (http://sailquest.com/market/models/whitby42.htm) has 34% for ballast. 

I wonder how much thought went to the removal of the bilge keels, and whether a solid analysis of what effects on stability it would have was really done. I also wonder if the boat was overloaded. 

He also added a some gear that would add weight aloft and increase windage:  two wind generators, and radar.

Also, he had 14 new AGM batteries, a 4.5kW genset, and a water maker... all of which are relatively heavy and depending on where and how they were installed, could have added to the problem.

Disclaimer....I'm NOT a great sailor,I am NOT a super experienced sailor....but I've been offshore a lot more than 'average' and in the one 'gulfstream gale' I weathered, I can say this....it is draining and exhausting!! You get tired solo....really tired. Ya get feeling 'beat-up'...ya feel very vulnerable.Your judgement gets blurry. I'm sure he made mistakes...I too wonder at his keel mods...I'm also sure he was not 'personally' prepared nor experienced enough.I too don't think he practiced foul weather boat handling enough beforehand ( a MUST).I'm sure we can ALL find fault....but..BUT..1-as Zen wrote...We weren't there..in his shoes..feeling what he felt    2- He TRIED !! He followed his dream.   I forget the name now,but back in the early 80's, a relatively inexperienced young sailor bought a new Montgomery 15 and sailed off to Hawia...and MADE IT.  Foolish..probably   A 15ft across the Pacific wouldn't be that far off to this failed horn attempt .   Point being..he made it...readers think...'what a great adventurer'...good for him...see,I new a small boat could do it.     Had he not...readers would jump on the story...FOOL..why would ANYONE try that in a 15fter...he had no experience.    Fun topic to debate...lots of valid points....but bottom line...he tried.   Here's to lifes adventures...following your heart and your dream. Many also dream...but NEVER leave the bay !!!   All mistakes in judgement and boat handling aside...grog to him for 'leaving the bay'

one point here- he had the boat reviewed by Bob Perry, NA, who ok'd the removal of the bilge keels and checked stability figures. Those bilge keels were flat steel plates and only removed 400 pounds.

I think it's great he tried, but it would have been greater if he had gained some offshore experience first, like maybe a down wind to Hawaii? Before challenging Cape Horn.

Ken says that his dinghy was torn off the deck during the rollover.

http://video.msn.com/v/en-ap/v.htm??g=d7247fd3-b2a2-4c3d-bb41-cd939ab14b36&

Nice dink, but wouldn't be much use on a nonstop circumnavigation

(http://www.seeboats.com/boat_images/5508_3970.jpg) 

Quote from: CharlieJ on January 10, 2007, 12:11:15 PM
one point here- he had the boat reviewed by Bob Perry, NA, who ok'd the removal of the bilge keels and checked stability figures. Those bilge keels were flat steel plates and only removed 400 pounds.

I think it's great he tried, but it would have been greater if he had gained some offshore experience first, like maybe a down wind to Hawaii? Before challenging Cape Horn.

Actually, from what I read it was 400 per plate, 800 lbs total.  Between the lower stability, the lower ballast, and the fact that the boat sounds like it was overloaded... it's displacement is supposed to be 39000 lbs, and Ken's website said that it was at 50000 lbs.   

My question is what the heck do you put on a boat that weighs over five tons??? 

You wouldn't need that much food and water.  A friend of mine estimated the daily food and water would be about 15 lbs max... that's about a six quarts of water and five pounds of food.  10000 lbs would be enough for 550 days at sea without a watermaker or taking on additional supplies, assuming that you use some of the weight for the fuel to cook it with.

Quote from: AdriftAtSea on January 11, 2007, 12:34:48 PM

My question is what the heck do you put on a boat that weighs over five tons??? 

Fourteen AGM batteries is probably a good percentage of that.  Group 27's weigh what, about 80 lbs?  That's about 10% of his added weight right there.

Quote from: Captain Smollett on January 11, 2007, 01:30:36 PM

Quote from: AdriftAtSea on January 11, 2007, 12:34:48 PM

My question is what the heck do you put on a boat that weighs over five tons??? 

Fourteen AGM batteries is probably a good percentage of that.  Group 27's weigh what, about 80 lbs?  That's about 10% of his added weight right there.

Good point... Actually, AGM Group 27 (http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1%7C328%7C51495%7C306218&id=152227) batteries are only 65 lbs each... but still.  My question is why so many batteries...  That would give him a battery bank of 1400 amp-hours.  He did have two wind generators on-board, so why the need for such a massive battery bank???  Also, where were the batteries located.  ABYC standards specify that a battery, AGM or not, needs to be in a secured battery box.  From what I've read, his were flying about the cabin during the rollover...so obviously they were not properly secured in battery boxes.

Still begs the question as to what the other 9100 lbs of stuff was... I believe the displacement for the boat includes normal stores to some degree.  Down at my marina there was a 50' steel schooner and she weighed in at 28,000 lbs or so IIRC—so I'm guessing that the 39,000 lbs of displacement listed on the sales listing for the boat includes at least some gear and equipment.

Quote from: AdriftAtSea on January 11, 2007, 02:08:23 PM

That would give him a battery bank of 1400 amp-hours.  He did have two wind generators on-board, so why the need for such a massive battery bank???   

As well as a 4.5 kW genny.

It's clear from his set-up that the guy was planning to use a lot of electricity, or just did not feel comfortable without it.

Well, all of the navigation equipment he listed was highly electricity dependent, unlike my Mark I eyeball, hand-bearing compass, sextant and chronometer (one solar powered, the other slug-wound automatic).

He NEEDED that many batteries AND panels AND gen-set. Along with all the electronics...he had a mini Gym and tanning booth onboard. No need not to keep 'lookin good' on a trip like that.

LOL, Frank. Funny guy... ;D

I think that calling for help to get off that boat was probably the best thing he could do. I don't think he had the experience or knowledge to get it jury rigged and moving before the next storm, much less the skills needed to make it through possible subsequent storms on a boat that wasn't 100%.

This does serve to show in part that he was unprepared for the very extreme voyage he undertook, IMO. Many, many tales of folks sailing 'down there' relate circumstances at least as harsh as what he experienced, so I cannot help but believe that if he'd done his 'due diligence', he would have known that what happened to him was not at all unlikely to happen. And had a plan for when it happened other than squawking an EPIRB and waiting for rescue.

The boat did appear capable of being jury rigged, and seemed to be floating pretty close to her lines. I would guess, though, that he was scared - as all of us would most likely be - by what happened, and what might yet happen. (In a perfect world, I would be made of the same stuff as the Smeetons, and would perform as they did, but until the 'opportunity' to find that out presents itself, well, who knows...) Good point about carrying the dinghy on a nonstop RTW voyage, unless of course it was considered also a lifeboat...?

It is neat that he left the harbor and chased the big dream, because so many never will do the same out of fear. He demonstrated that he had what it took to "just do it", and to a certain degree that is admirable. That said, I wouldn't want to emulate or promote his methods, as I don't believe that the way he went about it is 'the right way'. Something was obviously missing from his preparation...

Like has been said before: Sometimes having chutzpah isn't enough. No matter how much gear you have, nor what kind of boat you carry it in. Having all the best "stuff" in the world, even three times redundant, will not compensate for a lack in other areas.

To me, the whole story illustrates that the #1 most important thing you can take to sea is knowledge, followed closely by a general preparedness for the worst. Whatever "stuff" you do have you cannot depend upon always having, you still need to know how to get by without it.

To paraphrase a favorite author, the sea is a harsh mistress.

Chutzpah and being ill-prepared is generally a bad combination.  Less chutzpah and more preparation is generally a good idea.  Having gear that you don't really know how to use properly doesn't make up for the lack of skill and experience... never did.... never will.

Frank-

On a boat that big you could fit a mini-Gym and tanning bed... he had to remove a quarterberth to get the tanning bed in though. 

What I find most puzzling about this story is that he supposedly did quite a bit of research before his trip. I've never considered a solo circumnavigation but just from the reading that I've done the most persuasive authorities on long distance sailing are the Pardays, who sail on a 30something Bristol Channel Cutter. I just haven't seen many stories about solo circumnavigations on such a big boat. Have I just been missing them?

Oded

Quote from: oded kishony on January 12, 2007, 12:37:34 PM

I just haven't seen many stories about solo circumnavigations on such a big boat. Have I just been missing them?

Well, we might(*) consider the Around Alone and similar races solo circumnavigations, and those sometimes (generally) utilize larger boats (up to 60').  But they are specially designed and outfitted for solo sailing in harsh conditions.

The Joshua Slocum Society Web Site (http://www.joshuaslocumsocietyintl.org/) seems to be down at the moment, or I'd look up what seems to be 'normal' for solo circumnavigators.  IIRC, it's somewhere in the 30-40 ft range, with a healthy dose below 30 feet.


*  Why "might?"  The 'official' definition of a circumnavigation is that you have to cross two anitpodal points ... points on the earth's surface connected by a straight line-of-diameter.  If you sail around the world, touch every longitude, but don't hit two antipodal points somewhere on the journey, it is not, for record keeping purposes anyway, considered a circumnavigation.  I don't think the Around Alone races touch antipodal points, though they do touch every longitude.

If you look at Henderson's book on single-handed sailing, you'll notice that a majority of the boats used are fairly small... sub-35' in length for most.  The exceptions are often the big money, big boat races, but that isn't really the idea of solo circumnavigation in the traditional sense.   

Anyone with a big enough budget can setup a 50'+ boat to single-hand, but most people won't have the skills or the experience to do so still.  Almost anyone can setup and sail a 30' boat around the world with just a bit of training, lots of practice and a bit of luck.

Tania Aebi did so on a Contessa 26 with almost no real previous sailing experience.  Mistakes are often made...but a mistake on a 26' boat can be far easier to recover from and the boat may be a lot more forgiving.   Read her book "Maiden Voyage" and it is a real eye-opener.   

Quote from: CapnK on January 12, 2007, 08:29:27 AM

Many, many tales of folks sailing 'down there' relate circumstances at least as harsh as what he experienced, so I cannot help but believe that if he'd done his 'due diligence', he would have known that what happened to him was not at all unlikely to happen.

It is neat that he left the harbor and chased the big dream, because so many never will do the same out of fear. He demonstrated that he had what it took to "just do it", and to a certain degree that is admirable.

The conditions Ken experienced so far as I've read, are not that unusual anywhere, not just 'down there.' In our delivery this fall, we experienced similar conditions north of Cape Hatteras on the east coast. I agree with CapnK on his other major point, that Ken did pursue his dream.

Being a newbie at this whole sailing thing, I can really feel the push/pull of desire vs knowledge. I'd like to hear what other members feel about gaining "enough" knowledge, knowing when one is ready to set out. There is always more knowledge to gain, more skills to master, more to do on one's boat. I guess that is true of any pursuit, not just sailing. So what is your criteria for being ready?

As you may know from Norm's contributions, we are planning an adventure before we get to be too old. We have a target for a date, and an outline of activities leading up to that. Will we be ready? Mostly will I be ready? The mismatch in skills is something we will never equalize, so it will be how do we both feel about that, to determine our readiness. I'm not too worried about the boat, or redundant systems. Being ready would include a certain self-reliance, which as many of you indicated would not include 14 batteries. We sailed last May on a boat which would never be ready IMHO, simply because it didn't have an analog compass. That was fun when we lost the instruments 20 hours out. But that incident gave me experience in sailing without instruments, and taught me that the basics are always a necessity. Being an outdoors person, I had a couple of spare compasses hanging off my gear, and we had a handheld GPS, which we used sparingly to save on batteries. So in a way, we were ready although the boat was not.  :D

I have a long way to go, which frightens me, and which I hope would frighten Norm. Another consideration for those with a sailing dream. Do you make your dream happen with someone who may not be able to be an equal partner? This is an ongoing discussion for N and me. I guess to your point, CapnK, do you let fear stop you? When is fear a good indicator that you don't have the skills or knowledge you need?

I'd love to hear what other members think.

-elizabeth

Elizabeth-

While I think it would be great to have a partner that is equally skilled, it isn't a necessity.  As long as you both know and acknowledge the limitations in skills/experience it can work out.  As time goes by, the skills and experience will increase.  In your case especially, I think you'll be fine, as Norm is an excellent mentor when it comes to sailing. 

As for fear—fear may be a good indicator that you're not quite ready yet.  There was an excellent article on a woman had some fears about their first transoceanic passage, and they stopped and spent an additional year doing shorter bluewater passages before starting out on their transoceanic cruise.  Her fears were assuaged by the additional year and the experience she gained during that time.  If i can find the article, I'll let you know what magazine it was in.

I think the real problem is when someone isn't willing to admit they don't have the skill or the knowledge, and aren't willing to learn because of that lack of admission.  If Tania Aebi could set off at the age of 18 in a relatively unknown to her boat, an excellent boat but still new to her, with fairly little real sailing experience... I don't see it as a problem. 

I think the reason she succeeded, and Ken failed... is that she knew she had a lot to learn and was willing to do so... and she started out by doing the relatively safer and simpler passages—not attempting one of the most dangerous passages known to oceanic sailors.

I think the combination of a very large boat and being unprepared is really what did Ken in.  In many ways, I think that smaller boats are more forgiving of mistakes to some degree than are larger boats.  The forces involved are generally much smaller, and the results are similarly smaller.  An accidental gybe on an Open 60 versus one on a Cape Dory 25 are very different things.   Both are dangerous, but one involves lethal forces in even the lightest of winds...the other is only a real danger when the wind picks up. Same with raising the sails... on an Open 60... letting go of the halyard by accident can kill someone... dropping the mainsail of the Cape Dory 25, if it comes down by itself at all, is not likely to have much energy behind it. It looks like Ken made some basic errors on his 44' ketch, but the forces involved with a 50000 lbs boat aren't going to be very forgiving... and something is going to pay for those mistakes.

been thinking...(scary eh)...BEFORE making a serious crossing..how does this sound..(bluewater meaning offshore a couple of miles or more/major crossing meaning several days at sea.)    "sail in bluewater in 18kn winds,reef,change headsails out there..get comfortable with the motion and what to expect....THEN..sail bluewater in 22kn+ doing the same...THEN.. closer to 30kn doing the same...THEN... BEFORE heading out on that 'major crossing' do at least one 'over 30kn' day so ya know what it feels like (and sounds like !) changing headsails/reefing the main etc."  This way you will KNOW the sensations,where to brace yourself,handholds,how the boat reacts etc. and that new 'fear factor' will be much less with confidence way up. I wrote 'what it sounds like' because as anyone who has spent time out there in over 30kns knows...it is violent both visually and sounding!! Would qualify as the 'idiots guide to bluewater' ??  Simple as it sounds...I think it would save lots of people who haven't done it and their 1st 'big blow' out there really IS their 1st 'big blow'    PS...I qualified as one of those idiots!! My 1st big blow out there WAS my 1st big blow. 20kns on lake huron ain't 32kn+ in the gulf stream! Not proud of it...simply relating to 'the passion but not the experience' . I was very lucky and realize that.

Good perspectives from both of you. Thanks Dan and Frank. To Frank's comment

Quote from: Frank on January 13, 2007, 10:32:19 AM
I wrote 'what it sounds like' because as anyone who has spent time out there in over 30kns knows...it is violent both visually and sounding!!

during our delivery, I remember thinking that the noise level was so high that it was mentally exhausting over a period of days. It sounded like a feral animal was about at all times, whining, screaming, moaning, howling. Many days in that kind of condition is extremely taxing to your physical condition. I was already injured when we were dealing with that weather, so I guess my perceptions are somewhat skewed from loss of blood and pain. But yes, it is visually violent and aurally violent, quite fearsome.

I would be better prepared for that component of difficult weather now, but it still will take physical conditioning to remain calm and effective during such conditions.

Quote from: AdriftAtSea on January 13, 2007, 06:46:14 AMThere was an excellent article on a woman had some fears about their first transoceanic passage, and they stopped and spent an additional year doing shorter bluewater passages before starting out on their transoceanic cruise.

In our plan, N and I have for "the early years" sailing on as many boats as we can in as many conditions as we find ourselves. The November delivery was an example of an amazing learning opportunity, although unfortunate that it resulted in an injury. I think I bit off more than I could chew on that one. Knowing your way around the boat, and recognizing its deficiencies (such as inadequate handholds or no handholds!! in key locations) are key in assessing how you would handle challenging conditions. I am learning what is important, and what is necessary. Boat shopping has reflected my new appreciation of particular details, such as lee cloths, handholds, galley arrangement, wide side decks, etc. etc. The next phase will be, once we have "the boat", short trips to assess how she handles, at least a year of sailing her in all conditions. Then on the hard to address our newly defined needs, to ready her for "the big adventure". Baby steps, but we've made the first one. And we're still talking to each other. Exciting no?

-elizabeth

The still talking to each other is a good thing... it is much harder to co-exist in a confined space and to communicate if you're not talking to each other.  ;)

I'm a big advocate of getting actual heavy weather experience by going out in progressively heavier weather and learning more about the boat and how she handles the conditions.  You start by sailing in conditions 20 knots or so...and work your way up to stronger winds and bigger seas—but do so in a manner that gives you an out—so that if you find you're overmatched at the moment, you can take shelter, be it in a safe harbor or behind an island or in a sheltered bay... This will get you the experience you need to take it to the next level.

You can't get familiar with what it is really like—sailing in 30+ knots of wind....unless you sail in 30+ knots of wind. Same with 15' seas... if all you've every seen are the 2-3' seas of a protected bay...then the seas on the open ocean are going to be a rude awakening.

Have to agree on all that, BUT- waves in a bay like Matagorda , or Albemarle Sound, just to pick two places, can be FAR nastier than waves in the open ocean. True deep water ( past the 100 fathom line for instance, behave way differently than shallow water waves.

I'd a whole lot rather see 15 footers in 1000 feet of water, than those same 15 footers in 75 feet of water.

And you sure as the devil DON'T want to see 10 - 12 footers in 15 - 18 feet of water, like some I know have seen in Matagorda. Trust me, you don't.

True... shallow water can present huge problems... the Columbia River Bar strikes me as one... as does most of the New Jersey coast... both are really bad in any sort of bad weather.

Heading out to sea is often far safer...since the wave height and the conditions is often far less dangerous...also, you don't have the issue of shallow water, rocks and lee shores.

South west coast of Louisiana also. This June when we left Vermillion Bay's Southwest pass, we were 75 miles straight out- in 73 feet of water. Still had another 60 miles or so to go to reach the continental shelf when we turned it west for Texas. Stayed in the shallow water in amongst the rigs.

I'd SURE hate to get nailed there in any kind of weather cause you'd be dodging seas AND oil rigs.

Take a look at this chart, and remember- in the blue areas, there are just as many rigs as in the white areas, they are just shown on a different chart. The blue marks the 100 fathfathom line.

http://www.texasgulfcoastfishing.com/images/navmaps/mygulf.gif

actually they are quite far apart. They run in bands up to 5 miles apart, plus the individual wells are probably a mile or more apart. Individual well heads are usually clustered around a huge platform.

It's nerve racking for sure, but they are easy to miss, usually. Laura says "just steer for where it's dark"  ;D

NOT the kind of sailing I really prefer, but if you are sailing offshore from Western La to Texas, it's a fact of life