Lets say you meet someone with a burning desire to cross an ocean on a small boat, but who does not have a lot of sailing experience. What advice would you give them?
I'll start with this advice:
Put your boat in the water about 500 miles from your jumping off point for the passage. Daysail from harbor to harbor to the jumping off point, anchoring out every night. The reason is that you need to learn how to sail your boat, how to live aboard, and you need to give things on your boat a chance to break while you are near shore and can get them repaired. Try to sail in heavy winds however remember that bad weather conditions can be more dangerous for a sailboat on the coast, because the weather can drive you against hard things like rocks and seawalls, or put you hard aground. I would say 20 good daysail coastal passages should give you the experience you need.
Very good although You might want more than 2 months, 6 months to a year may be better.
Get every winterizing ,sea trial, commissioning and survey checklist that you can find. Learn how to use them, make a list of your own and do it.
I also suggest - Get a manual for everthing. Take everything apart that you can and learn what a bad/failing part looks like. This would not include special things like engines, fridge, stove. radio's. But the normal wear and tear items you should know how to do. If you don't know how to do this, by an old car or an old riding lawn mower and fix it yourself.
Make a departure checklist and a maintains log.
Work out how everything. It is not the same as reading a book. One slip or bad move and delay or destroy your voyage quickly. Way to many examples of this. In this regards, small boats are better, things are closer and not as heavy.
Take the view point that voyaging/cruising is an EXTREME sport. It does make a lot of difference if you do something RIGHT and quickly the first time versus not knowing that something is wrong or doing it slowly/wrong the first time.
Get to know every system on your boat as much as possible. Re-build systems and learn how to do the regular maintenance on them all. When you're 300 miles out, there isn't an electrician, a composite repair person, a carpenter, a plumber, a mechanic or a rigger—there is only you, and if you're planning on going on long voyages in a smaller boat, you really need to learn a bit about every system on the boat.
Make sure you have the basic spares and maintenance parts:
Spare fuses of the sizes and types you need. Remember, some gear uses ATC, ATM, AGC, SFE, or some other type. To help with this, I've modified most of the gear on my boat so that all the gear is using ATC-type blade fuses, except the really large fuses for the DC panel, which are Maxi-Blade fuses. I did this by eliminating most of the in-line fuse holders, and using fuse blocks and fused switch panels instead.
Impellers for the various engine water pumps, as well as the various bilge and fresh water pumps.
Oil/fuel filters and spark plugs for various engines.
Spare light bulbs for each type of fixture you have: halogen, incandescent, fluorescent, LED.
Trace, diagram and label the electrical wiring and plumbing (fuel, waste, propane and water)on the boat. In an emergency, having clearly labeled wiring and plumbing can make a huge difference in fixing things quickly.
Carry the basic tools you need to do basic maintenance and repairs on your boat. A piece of extra rigging wire with mechanical swageless fittings long enough to replace the longest, heaviest piece of rigging on your boat is not a bad idea.
Know what your boat is supposed to sound like. What does the engine under power or at idle sound like? Often a change in sound can be an early clue to trouble, so knowing how your boat is supposed to sound can be a lifesaver.
Practice reefing your sails, until you can do it quickly and without thinking about it... and reef whenever you first think it might be necessary. Being over-canvassed is generally worse than having up too little sail.
Practice anchoring and retrieving your anchor. Getting your anchor set is an important part of cruising that most people won't mention. If you spend a lot of time on the hook, you'll generally save money, but being able to set the anchor and retrieve it easily make doing so a lot simpler.
Quote from: skylark on June 14, 2008, 08:48:50 AM
Lets say you meet someone with a burning desire to cross an ocean on a small boat, but who does not have a lot of sailing experience. What advice would you give them?
First piece of advice I'd give: Don't subscribe to SAIL or any of the other big rags. Cancel immediately if already subscribed.
Second piece of advice: Get a boat and go sailing. Barring that, get on someone else's boat and go sailing with them.
Time on the water... each second DOING = about 2 years of reading about it.
(Note to self - take this advice: SAIL MORE)
Quote from: AdriftAtSea
Being over-canvassed is generally worse than having up too little sail.
I disagree with this as a "general rule." Or at least I should say I disagree with how this is often extrapolated. In high winds and rough seas, being under-canvassed has severe detrimental effects on boat handling/comfort of ride. Many great authors have commented on this, and it's been my experience (at least as far as big wind goes).
It's a common misconception - folks fear the wind, so they pull down the sails. The boat is designed to sail - many of our SailFar boats should sail well with proper sails in 40-ish kts of wind, if not higher. The Pardey's do it "routinely," and there is some GREAT footage of Gelinas sailing
Jean Du Sud in Force 8-9 in his movie.
My "advice" therefore would be to sail in rough conditions (whatever is rough to you - go beyond your comfort zone) to see what the boat likes in those circumstances. You're going to eventually get hit by some rough stuff at-sea, so better to not avoid those conditions during the practice phase.
You both have a valid point there IMHO.
That said, I see lots of people with way to much canvas up in around 20-25 knots of wind. On the other hand, I don´t see many boats out there at all in anyting above 25 knots ::)
Could this be because, in the Baltic we are soooo spoiled with the archipelago and the shelter it provides...????
And we all thought the Vikings were tough ::)
imagine the Baltic waters warm, sunshine 80 % of the time for 3 long months of summer, a regular 15 to 20 knots breeze so does not really matter if you carry too much sail, then you will be so spoiled everybody will want a little piece of this paradise :D :D
You should be able to do all of these -
http://www.videos.sailingcourse.com/
Having no canvas up is generally a mistake Capn Smollett. Any general rule, taken to an extreme makes it less than applicable. For most people, being overcanvassed is far more a danger than being undercanvassed.
Sure is nice around here... but as you said, the season is at most 5 months. The REAL season, I e the vacation period is More like six weeks, approx. from June 25 to August 10. The rest o the summer you don´t meet to many vessels. And BTW the wind is anything but steady in the summer. Expect 2-30 knots 85% of the time though, directions shifting every 2-3 days at least. An occasional gale, some thunderstorms lots of squalls and the water temp at sea between 13-157 C (55-63 F) in mid summer. Warmer in the nice shallow bays in the archipelago though. No tides, not many marinas overfilled, literally thousands of protected secluded anchorages are reasons many of the ever increasing fleet of Germans, Dutch, British and others that choose to more or less permanently cruise in the Swedish and Finnish part of the Baltic Sea.
That said, at times I do think it would be nice with turquoise water and palm trees a while for a change... ;D
Back to the Vikings, could it have been this 'to protected' feeling that made them want to go explore the outside world maybe? ;)
cannot let those Germans, British, Dutch,... French ??? have all the fun sailing the Baltic. Are you ready for your summer cruise ? Because I am, and I wish everyone a good time on the water, not too many 25 + knots please !
My experience on how much sail to carry is that you want to carry all "your" boat can carry without being over-powered and loosing speed. For some, that's a lot, for others, you might as well drop it all but a storm sail when you hit 30/35 knots. When you can't trim for less that 30 degrees, it's time to drop some of your sail. If someone disagrees with (usually happens) please tell me the why fores. I learn by being out there playing and listening to better sailors than myself. A little reading don't hurt if you stay away from the aforementioned literature. Haven't been on the board for awhile....too busy playing on SFran bay.... hehehehehehe...
My advice to Newbies is to keep your fingernails trimmed
Getting your nails ripped back is rather painful
That's all I got today
>My advice to Newbies is to keep your fingernails trimmed
>Getting your nails ripped back is rather painful
Is this the voice of experience speaking? :o
~OK
Yep.....like a manicure at the Hanoi Hilton
You also don't want to step into an open hatch. Seen it happen. Ouch
Quote from: Cmdr Pete on June 17, 2008, 09:25:07 AM
...You also don't want to step into an open hatch. Seen it happen. Ouch
Don't step on sails either. They're slippery and you can damage them, but you can also fall through them if they're over an open hatch.
Quote from: TJim on June 15, 2008, 05:32:33 PM
When you can't trim for less that 30 degrees, it's time to drop some of your sail.
Most boats have long passed their optimum trim when heeled 30 degrees... Quite often you can reef without losing any speed at angles of heel above 20 degrees or so. Reefing also lowers the rig stresses dramatically since you're removing sail area AND lowering the center of effort. Unless racing (this thread was about cruising passages, wasn't it?) my strategy has always been don't overstress the gear as well as keep the speed up. Kind of like a balancing act, except that rather than balancing on the racer's edge my tradeoffs start further back... The consequences of losing the rig or even a sail offshore are way greater than that last 0.1 kt is worth to me... ;)
Well, maybe. Tehani is gonna sail at 20 degrees in 10 knots of wind going to weather and you're NOT gonna do anything to stop her. With a cap of wind, and the rail down, she's at between 30 and 35 degrees, and going fast.
That's because she has a wine glass shape, slack bilges and very long overhangs, DESIGNED to increase waterline ( and speed ) when well heeled.
More modern boats are certainly different, but the 60's era CCA boats LIKE to be heeled.
She's probably laid over to between 25 and 30 degrees in this picture, perhaps a bit more. And all reefing would have done would be to slow her down.
What kind of swells would you put up with? I read somewhere that you shouldn't go out in swells greater than 40% of your LWL. I am sure that you get over your head as that would put most of us in the 10-12 foot range.... What has been the experience of our long range cruisers out there?
Interesting discussion. The old rule of thumb with Tritons is reef at about 15 knots of wind, you are then good until you shouldn't be out there anymore. Just in case, I've got two more reef points after that, but I hope never to have to use them (fingers crossed).
(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c245/pyrat/IMG_3147.jpg)
Speaking of thumbs and fingers, I need to go clip my fingernails... ;D
Going out in swells isn't a problem.
Breaking seas are the problem. Swells generally don't pose a threat to the boat regardless of size. A breaking wave 40% of the WL in height can capsize your boat.
Quote from: newt on June 30, 2008, 12:55:24 PM
What kind of swells would you put up with? I read somewhere that you shouldn't go out in swells greater than 40% of your LWL. I am sure that you get over your head as that would put most of us in the 10-12 foot range.... What has been the experience of our long range cruisers out there?
Joe, Triton 158 should be a WC Triton. Tell me please, why in the heck are you reefing in 15 kts. Takes
about 20-25 just to get her to hull speed. You really don't need the first reef in a WC Triton before 25
kts. Takes that just to get her moving good. I usually reef when she starts to loss speed due to being
over powered and that's usually between 25 and 30 knots. That's running a 110 headsail. Just curious.
TJim
Adrift, help me on this one. I understand the difference between breaking seas and swells, but don't large swell easily become breaking seas if the wind picks up? And is the reverse not true- wind does not cause high swells until it has blown for a while.
Come to think of it- what does cause the conditions which should be red flags for us? I mean besides the usual- hurricanes, tropical depressions, violent thunderstorms...
Of course they would be enhanced/decreased buy the local conditions (tides, gulf stream). I hear people fearing the "Northerner" on this thread. Something I need to worry about for our Scoot?
Sounds like I will listening to the VHF on during the dash....
The worst swells I have ever been in were in the Med in 1954 and didn't have a thing to do with the
weather. I was riding AKA-55, which was about 650-700 ft long and we were burying the hull up over
the superstructure at the bottom of the swells. This was the only time I have ever really feared for my
life at sea and was caused by an earthquake right below us. I have ridden out typhoon Mary and hurricane hazel not to mention several other less famous storms, but none of them compared with the no weather swells in the Med. TJim
Swells and wind driven waves are different beasts. They differ in several properties, notably the rate of movement through the water. Swells are typically longer wavelength waves that are dissipating the energy from some previous impetus (which may likely have been wind), and the wavetrain has stabilized into a relatively regular pattern. Wind driven waves travel according to some function of wind speed, and tend to be more "chaotic."
Wind driven waves can 'ride' on top of swell. Any given portion of the sea surface is a very complex waveform containing a fairly broad spectrum of both transverse (wind waves, swell) and longitudinal (tidal) waves. The multitude of waves present have various periods, amplitudes and shapes.
It makes it FUN. ;D
None of this is to say that the wind cannot blow the tops off of swell, but that's not really a 'breaking' sea.
if the wind and swells are opposed, then it can become very dangerous rather quickly. But, in general, swells in and of themselves are not a danger and generally do not become breaking waves.
The case of the wind opposing a current is always a danger. If you want to know what i mean, look at the columbia river bar in Oregon. When the tide and wind oppose the current from the river, it can threaten even the largest ships. Something similar can happen at the entrance to the Cape Cod Canal with a strong sw wind.
Quote from: newt on July 01, 2008, 12:03:10 PM
Adrift, help me on this one. I understand the difference between breaking seas and swells, but don't large swell easily become breaking seas if the wind picks up? And is the reverse not true- wind does not cause high swells until it has blown for a while.
Come to think of it- what does cause the conditions which should be red flags for us? I mean besides the usual- hurricanes, tropical depressions, violent thunderstorms...
Of course they would be enhanced/decreased buy the local conditions (tides, gulf stream). I hear people fearing the "Northerner" on this thread. Something I need to worry about for our Scoot?
Sounds like I will listening to the VHF on during the dash....
Just the kind of discussion that makes Sailfar so much fun!
Cubemonkey and I note a couple of things not in this discussion yet. One is the role of rest. The other is taking care of one's self and taking care of the other person (people?) you voyage with. Finally, the role of nutrition which leads to general health.
Given that the people are the weakest thing on a boat... They need the most care. People/crew are the only things on board that will naturally make anything more complicated. Everything else seeks a lower energy level.
Make the boat as simple to operate and fix as possible and then simplify some more. A recurring Sailfar theme anyway!
Learn to nap. It takes practice. You are ready to go offshore when you can complete a 48 hour passage and not be exhausted when you hit the mooring at the other end.
The best thing you can do for your shipmates is to not be calling upon them for help all the time. The second best is to know when the other guy needs a hand and be there. A dichotomy?
Food... another popular Sailfar topic. Simple and nutritious. I hear about the role of a wok in food operations as being the simplest way to produce the required goodies. We're pressure cooker folks. None the less... a gimbaled stove really matters. (we just did a three day trip without a gimbaled stove... groan.)
Passage making is a "people problem," I think.
Was this thread started by someone about to "head out?"
Best, Norman
Skylark brought up the important issue of hygiene on passages.
I thought this was a great topic for discussion, so I split it off as it's own topic. Click here for "Hygiene; Keeping clean while underway...... " (http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php?topic=1785.0)
Quote from: TJim on June 30, 2008, 02:46:27 PM
Joe, Triton 158 should be a WC Triton. Tell me please, why in the heck are you reefing in 15 kts. Takes
about 20-25 just to get her to hull speed. You really don't need the first reef in a WC Triton before 25
kts. Takes that just to get her moving good. I usually reef when she starts to loss speed due to being
over powered and that's usually between 25 and 30 knots. That's running a 110 headsail. Just curious.
TJim
Hi Jim,
Nope, 158 is an east coast Triton. Aeromarine did their own thing when numbering their boats so there are number overlaps. There is a lot of conflicting information regarding Triton hull numbers, production dates and even the numbers produced.
The EC boats are a bit more responsive to wind then the WC version which had a smaller rig, and in some cases more ballast. This was, reportedly, Aeormarine's attempt to compensate for higher winds in San Francisco Bay.
When cruising I like to reef before it becomes absolutely necessary. My experience has been that she sails along quite nicely at 15 knots of wind and continues to with a reef over 15 Knots. .
This was, of course, with the original sail configuration. The new sail (pictured) has a foot about as long as the old sail did when reefed so I may well not reef her as soon, more time on this sail will tell.
Speaking of opposing waves against swell, I agree with AdriftAtSea, it can quickly become a difficult and sometimes dangerous situation.
Four years ago I was bound from Falmouth UK to Portugal and got caught about 60 miles North West of Cape Finisterre. The swell in that area is generally quite high anyway as the open Atlantic meets the shallower depths of the Bay of Biscay, and usually they run in on the prevailing wind from the South West but on this occasion there was bad weather over mainland Europe and a hard gale came from the North East, out of the Bay.
For some hours until the swell eventually gave in to the wind life was not at all pleasant !! With plenty of searoom I chose to run before the big seas which seemed to be breaking against the swell for a time. Towing 4 warps and carrying just a small storm jib ( 35 foot steel gaff cutter) it was a very strange sensation of sailing up the big oncoming swells while being chased by breaking seas. Now when I sail through that area I stand off in about 10.30 or 11 degrees West in the deeper water. Saxon
1. Get as much experience in varying conditions as possible
And the biggie IMHO
2. Do not sail in unfamiliar waters UNLESS you can navigate WITHOUT a GPS.
This subtopic of swells and wind waves coming in from different directions is fascinating. Is this what they refer to as a confused sea? What is more dangerous- the wind driven waves or the large swells, and what should I place the bow to, if I have a choice: The large swells or the wind? It sounds like the running from the wind into the large swells is doable, but heaving to in this situation may be really uncomfortable.
comments?
MAY THE GAMES BEGIN!!! iOWA IS GONNA ROCK! GO SHAWN JOHNSON and LOLA JONES
I believe 'confused sea' describes the condition admirably Newt. I think it's fair to say that even in rough weather there is usually a general 'run' of the waves with the wind. Sometimes they will break, even come aboard at times but when conditions are such that at times you have waves and swell running at each other, there is a tendency for them to 'steeple' and topple over each other and all rhythm seems to be lost.
Sailing even in a heavy swell in a well found boat should not be hazardous, uncomfortable if it's on the beam I agree, but if it's ahead or astern and there are no breaking seas to worry about, well, one minute your horizon is less than a mile and next it's five or six miles.. :D Regards Saxon.
Thank you for your reply Saxon, I don't have to sail the channel, but I hear that you get a lot of confused seas where the North Sea and the winds from the Atlantic mix. What is your strategy for handling that? (other than not sailing)
This is not just academic for me, as I am looking forward to sailing on your side of the pond in the not too distant future. ;D
Hello Newt and all hands,
I'm not someone with an academic knowledge of the geographic or scientific conditions which really affect this area of the world but I've been at sea for 48 years since I was 16, so you get a layman's (or seaman's ) opinion. :D
I think primarily it is a matter of scale, for instance, where I am berthed the French coast is about 75 miles away. If I sail Eastwards along our coast to Dover then France lies just 22 miles away. If you look at a sea chart for this area you will see that the British Isles sit in about 120-150 feet of water, obviously there are places around our coasts where it is deeper but in general it is usually less. About 150 to 200 miles to our South-West, beyond the Isles of Scilly the sea bed lies at depths of 6000 or7000 feet, and with the wind and weather coming predominantly from that direction the effect is to squeeze into the 'funnel' effect of the English Channel and the long Atlantic swell gets broken up when it reaches our South-Western coasts sometimes in fearsome storms which have claimed many fine ships over the years.
One great advantage of sailing this area is that a lee or shelter from the weather is usually only a few hours away, sometimes even crossing to the French side if the wind goes South or South-Easterly, or you can run into the great natural harbours of Falmouth, Plymouth or up into Torbay for protection from the South-Westerlies. There is a huge range of weather forecasting facilities as well, British, French and German so a seaman like check on forecasts before sailing will see you safe.
Blue/green seas, one reef in a stiff breeze with short seas and a foredeck wet from spray is common but anything more threatening and I usually find a lee somewhere and await an improvement in the weather.
One final point...shipping!! Literally hundreds of ships pass through the Dover Straights every 24 hours, a look on the Coast Guard radar in thick foggy weather nearly gave me a heart attack, rather like one of your 'Freeways' in the rush hour! :D :D Regards Saxon.