I just sent a PM to someone and thought maybe I'll start a thread on this.
I am hoping to buy a boat in about 8 months ruffly maybe sooner maybe later, been looking like crazy on yachtworld and even went and seen one boat in my area that was being sold by the owner.
Should someone who is looking to buy a boat should they be totally upfront with the Broker and say hey I'm looking for this certain type of boat and I plan to buy in about 8-10 months possibly sooner if I come across the boat I like? or should you just say what you're looking for and act like you are ready to buy tomorrow?
What are yalls experiences dealing with brokers? or even buying from owners?
I just thought this would be a great thread to start for the first time boat buyer like myself because i really haven't dealt with them
Thanks a bunch,
Chris
Some of the brokers I have talked to were very helpful and willing to show me anything they had. But I have talked to a few who were obviously assuming I was a complete idiot with money and they thought they could "direct me to a more appropriate boat".
When I find that somebody is not going to be helpful or respectful, I tell them nevermind, I'll find somebody else to deal with. I don't care what boat they have, its not worth my time to deal with those guys. There will always be other boats for sale. And I wouldn't want a single penny of mine to end up in their pocket.
That broker was probably lying to you, the market is poor right now, and he was just trying to cause you to make a hasty decision. Very much like a crappy used car dealer. You either have to be very direct and tell them exactly what you want and settle for nothing less, or just don't deal with them.
I think the majority of brokers will be helpful though, so don't let a few a-holes keep you from trying.
There is nothing wrong with looking at boats a year before you're ready to buy, any good broker will respect that, and treat you well in the hopes of you coming back to them or referring friends to them in the future.
Thanks dude yeah I may try the same broker company but ask for a different person to deal with but dam I really wanted to see that 28ft CD oh well guess I better go somewhere else. Hey do you know any brokers over there by MS? around Gulfport and all?? and you're right the market is poop right now he was bsing me for sure
Thanks
Chris
I have only spoke with private owners in Gulfport, just from walking the dock.
Actually, I found that walking the docks is the best way to see boats. There are a lot of them for sale that never get listed anywhere and they work by word of mouth. So just getting to a marina and making conversation with people will usually return some good prospects.
I am really hoping to do a lot more serious looking this spring/summer since I'll be down here for a few extra months. But I'm gonna shift my search to the trailer sailor market. Even then, I still like to look at every boat I can, and whenever I find one close enough I try to go take a look, even if its way out of my price range or not at all what I think I want. I just find that the more I talk to people the better, since I'm such a noob getting out there is much better than reading.
There are a lot more brokers in your area and then further east in Mobile and FL, but not much around here. I have talked a few times with people from Mid South Sailing in Mobile and they were always helpful and willing to answer any questions I had. The other brokers I have talked to were in northern OH and MI and I've had mixed impressions from them all.
I do think it would be worth trying to see that CD again, Just try to ignore the broker and do your own thing. He's a tool.
yeah I'm gonna give it another shot and see if I can if not screw him it's his loss.
Theres a marina near me that I'm gonna check out which I hope the marina owners don't get mad at me for walking there docks. Which heck I may aproach them and ask and even introdeuce myself heck it won't hurt and they may know of some boats they can recommend.
Thanks,
Chris
One fact in dealing with a broker, you are going to pay more for the boat. Even a bad broker, that does not assist you in any way will collect the commission on a boat they have listed.
IMHO,
The broker will argue that some owners overprice their boats... and they are right. Those owners are not going to suddenly lower their prices when they list with a broker.
They will also tell you that the seller will pay the commission.... who is bringing the checkbook to the table?
Walking docks, and talking to folks online... much better way to do business. This is especially true with SailFar size boats.
Thanks s/v Faith if the weather is good next weekend I'll try walking the docks and checking the boats out for myself. I never really gave it any thought that yeah the boat would be maybe more going with a broker or owner. Thanks this is all part of learning about boats not just the boat but buying it as well.
Thanks,
Chris
Chris
When walking docks first see if you can see a boat with a for sail sign, then you can always tell dock master you would like to take a look at that boat and any other that may be for sale. Some docks are open to one and all others are not. Another good practice is to ask the harbor master or dock master if they know of any boats for sale. Some times they know of ones that are not posted with signs or can steer you to some good buys.
As far as brokers go reamember that they look at you as a way to make some money. If you have something in mind let them know what you want. One thing to watch out for is if you make a low offer and they contact the seller and the seller agrees they are just as apt to call their buddy and sell it to him before getting back to you. Personal experience. AND IT IS A BUYERS MARKET. Always will be in the used boat market. Old adage, two happiest days in a boat owners life, the day he buys his dream boat and the day he sells it. Not to says there are not a whole lot of happy days in between. Just that a lot of people are moving up or down and their old boat is in the way of the newer one.
Happy searching
Quote from: s/v Faith on February 13, 2009, 06:54:04 PM
One fact in dealing with a broker, you are going to pay more for the boat.
Not necessarily true, When I sold my trimaran, the broker worked with both me and the buyer to negotiate a price. Once the price was agreed upon, the broker took his commission from that selling price. It was not quite what we started out asking, but as a part of the negotiations I removed a huge amount of gear from the boat. I'm still using some of that gear today. The broker got nothing from that.
A GOOD broker can be well worth the money, in particular on a larger boat.
Thanks well the broker that I did find near me really doesn't have any boats I'm interested in so am trying to see if there are any other brokers around me. I did find one well there more into powerboats it seems but just gonna keep searching now. I'm deffinatly gonna pass by next weekend at this one marina and probally go and talk to the harbor master and see if he can tell me of any boats for sale at the marina. I'm pretty much set on I'm gonna have to make a trip to Maryland or Florida or wherever to find the boat I want this summer but it would be nice to get lucky and find something close.
Chris
Take a gun and shoot them in the back. All they deserve.
It is very rare to find and honest one.
Chris,
I've only had to deal with a broker once. I wouldn't call it a "bad" experience because I ended up getting a great deal on a great boat. I would call it frustrating though. When I accused the broker of not really showing much interest in making sure the transaction went smoothly he flat out told me "....hey man, this is only a $10,000 deal and my commission won't be squat". Man talk about customer care. Like I said, I was very happy with the deal, and I made it a point to be a thorn in this dudes butt. By the time he had gotten rid of me he had earned his commission!
Unfortunately money talks. Don't tell these guys your not ready to buy until after they show you the boats. Do lots of Internet investigation, know what your looking for, know what you want to spend( don't worry about offending someone with a low offer, your not out to make friends, your out to buy a boat), and find a good surveyor you can trust( definitely not the one the broker recommends)
Good luck and have fun!!
-Sandy
Hey Chris,
This is a really good time to be buying a boat--and a really crappy time to be selling one.
That means that you are the one in the driver's seat. If a broker feeds you a line of poop, ask him how many boats he sold recently. Point out that your interest is in buying a boat, and that the size of his commission doesn't really matter to you.
Under normal circumstances, such talk might be out of line. But not right now.
I have to say that I bought my boat through a broker, and it was an entirely favorable experience. It was a small boat, so he did not expect much of a commission. As a result, he basically took me to the boat, said, "look it over," and went on to other matters. When I said I was interested, he made it easy for me to get the boat surveyed (and sea-trialed), and he later arranged a delivery crew to bring it from Connecticut to Massachusetts.
So, even though this particular broker was not really putting himself out for me, he was helpful on what he knew would be a small-commission job. That's what you need, especially with something like a CD28.
BTW, if nobody else has suggested that, be sure to visit the Cape Dory Sailboat Owners Association website (www.capedory.org (http://www.capedory.org)). They have a "for sale" section. I'm sure somebody on that board is planning to trade up or down from a 28. And, if you find a boat that you're interested in, you can post your questions on the board. One of the former owners might be on it.
Good luck.
--Joe
Chris—
I'd also recommend you read the Boat Inspection Trip Tips thread (http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php?topic=1985.0) I started.
I have negotiated a great deal more than once only to have the broker sell it to his buddy. Any way anybody has a way of getting around this problem with brokers? It seem like I Have to trust someone, but the broker (even when he says he is working for me) seems to be the one who has an alternative motive.
Quote from: newt on February 20, 2009, 02:51:00 PM
I have negotiated a great deal more than once only to have the broker sell it to his buddy. Any way anybody has a way of getting around this problem with brokers? It seem like I Have to trust someone, but the broker (even when he says he is working for me) seems to be the one who has an alternative motive.
I lost out on a nice little boat a few years ago - to be honest it was already at an attractive price and was very tidy, but of course I put in a lower offer ;D It was one of those boats that I would have been very happy with at the right price for a couple of years - although I was not "in love" with her :D so I was quite happy to play it cool when buying, especially as I knew the boat had been for sale for a good while (Jersey is a small place :P).
Next thing I heard (Jersey is a small place :P) was that the boat had been sold and gone to England. No refusal or Counter offer. Indeed no contact with broker at all >:(
I can't prove it - but I strongly suspect that the broker did a deal with a mate on that boat and owner never even heard my offer. My reasoning is that over in the UK this boat was a lot more attractive than here (It was 20 foot motorsailer ;D - and a bit slow under both for going off the island) - even if the new Owner had paid the 17 1/2% VAT for importing (that
is avoidable with the right (wrong?!) paperwork - especially on an older boat).
I heard at Xmas that the Broker is now (back?) to selling second hand cars (Jersey is a small place :P).
I personally did it with the owner. Walking the marina's, and internet searches (Craigs list) is exactly how I found mine. I don't think the ad was up for more than a day ;D
With most of our "typical" SailFar boats, it might be better off. Also keep in mind, some of the same tactics still hold true with the current economy and private sellers. Yes, its a bit more intimate with a real person, but at the same time, be honest with yourself. They are selling, you are buying. Its your money.
Right now alot of people would love to be out of their upkeep and slip fees. Especially if said people have family, mortgage, etc. Keep on YachtWorld, and CraigsList often. I still check every day just to look and see what comes up. Just the other day I found a beautiful WestSail 28 here in Houston that could definately be had for as low as 20k. Not bad for a boat that only had about 60 made.
There are lots of gems out there, just need to do some digging. Now more than usual with the market being flooded with sellers.
thanks guys
I'm actually about to leave my house in a couple minutes here to go look at a CD 28ft. From the pictures it will need some work but thats any boat right? but I think it will need quite a bit of work but still gonna go take a look at it. I was hoping for something around 31ft but figured it's only about 10 miles from me why not go check it out and learn a little more about looking at boat and see what it's like dealing with a broker. Like someone else said use a broker there just a tool is all so thats that. I'll tell you more when I get back from looking at it.
Chris
Let us know how it goes, and snap some pics ;D
Well I was not impressed at all it looked like it was about to sink matter affact when I walked up to it I was like ummm no thank you and started to walk away.
It was ****
I told the broker what I was looking for and that I didn't really want to go over 30 gran he showed me some boats he had and really he just didn't have any boats worth a darn, am I shooting myself in the foot by staying around 30 gran I mean I could go more like maybe 40 but I'd really be stretching it. I looked at a 41 Rhodes full keel sloop. I must say very nice boat and roomy but to long for me after that a cd 27 again nice little boat with a little work but to small to live aboard but really a nice little boat, it did have about 10 inches of water in the bilge maybe a little less I should have brought a flashlight I'm not sure if that is normal or what. I didn't really go through any of these boats alot because they just didn't really catch my eye you know? heck the w32 I looked at a few weeks back was nicer then these boats and I thought it needed alot of work boy was I wrong. I do have to say it is nice going aboard these boats and learning about them.
I really did like that rhodes 41 but I know there is no way I could do all the upkeep of that boat. I looked at a s-2 about 30ft sloop fin keel I must say very nice boat for on the lake but wouldn't want to go beyond that and the head smelled like POOP
I did see a 30 or 31ft cape dory I think it was very nice boat I may go back to that marina and talk to the harbor master and see if I can get in touch with the owner and if they would let me go aboard it, it was really a nice looking boat and would save me maybe a little biut of time then to drive way into FL to see this other 30ft CD.
So yeah thats about it for my boat shopping. I am deffinatly going to have to go to FL or TX to look at other boats but it is ok I learned alot today I learnd these boats weren't for me.
Chris
PS can you tell me what was the headroom on a 27cd?? I know my head hit it but am currious
$30,000, really? And you feel like you are LOW BALLING for a good 'sail far' type boat?
Hmmm.
The MOST expensive Alberg 30's on YachtWorld are upper 20's, lower 30's, and they tend to be fancily appointed in really, really good shape. The low end starts around 10-11K. If you have 30K to spend, a TON of refitting can be done if you by a $10,000 boat. And I paid LESS than that for mine. She was in good enough condition to run offshore the first time I sailed her.
A couple of years ago, there was an Ariel (perhaps under your minimum LOA, but the point still holds) in PRISTINE condition for $5,000. Your typical Triton project boat runs $1,500 to $5,000 or so.
No, I am not dropping zeros.
I don't mean to sound 'uppity' about this, but $30,000 is LOT of money for an older, capable world voyager.
Chris,
I agree with John. The broker is not dealing with a full deck. You are MUCH better off doing your own search, walking docks, and looking at online (owner posted) adds.
I just opened this months 'Good Old Boat (http://www.goodoldboat.com/resources_for_sailors/sailing_classifieds/boats_for_sale.php)'* and see half a dozen candidates that would merit consideration. Granted they may not be local, but I know a delivery capt that works really cheap.... ;D
*Highly recommend a subscription BTW
Chris:
I can't find the headroom for the CD27 on the specs page at www.capedory.org (http://www.capedory.org), but I'm pretty sure it's the same as the 25D, which is 5' 11".
Sorry to hear that the 28 was in such bad shape. But the 27 is a better boat in many ways--the "purest" Alberg shape and perhaps the best sailing of the Cape Dorys.
Keep lookin'
--Joe
Love my Vega, got her for just shy of 10k. 5'11" headroom, but as someone said (I think on here), that they heard from an old salt:
"I do 2 things below decks and neither require me to be standing up"
As everyone else said, 30k is alot. Personally, I would try and get something >=20k and use the rest for upgrades/kitty. Even then if I was going to the 20k range the boat better be in darn nice shape.
Just keep pounding the searches, its bound to come along!
Also, +1 on the "Good Old Boat" mag, I just started mine and love it!
yeah after posting this I was thinking 30 gran is a butt load and I think people here in Louisiana just expect to get rich off of there junk. I'm done with that broker, trying to find another around here and if not going to FL this summer anyways so.
I would love to find something in the 20k range, the boats I looked at today really were just junk I can't understand how these owners expect to get what there asking but I guess they will find some dumb fool to pay that. Simply put this guy didn't have any boats worth a **** after the last boat which was I think the 4th I was like this is it no more boats. This guy doesn't have **** and I tell you what I looked at these 4 boats in less then an hour and that just tells you they sure were JUNK. The wet snail 32 I looked at I spent over an hour on it looking through it.
Thanks Guys back to looking again but I must say it is a little disapointing but at the same time fun searching for you're first boat and learning about the other boats out there in the process. BTW Thanks I will have to go to my local barnes and noble and see if I can find the good ole boat magazine
Thanks,
Chris
Chris,
If you follow the link in the post above, you can see the adds they have posted.
If you go to their web site (http://www.goodoldboat.com/), you can get a free issue (they usually send out the current month).
cool thanks yeah I was just browsing there sailboats for sale on there site.
Yep couldn't help but look myself, though I have no business doing so ;)
One you don't see around much caught my eye and I know that someone on this board will think she has "sweet" lines ;D
(http://www.goodoldboat.com/images/advertisements/1234271681_lg.jpg)
Here's a link
http://classicsailboat.image-sense.com/
Tim I know I was looking at this boat as wel,l very nice lines
Welcome to boat shopping Chris. The trick is to know what you can fix and what you cannot. For me a head that smells like poop is usually an easy fix, although not a nice one. The hose is usually saturated with smell and has to be replaced with proper hose. But other things need more than my skills- and a good survey will tell the difference. The bilge water is not exactly a deal breaker, as long as you can tell what is in the bilge and were it came from. Fresh water or sea water? Oil or water? etc.... You get my drift.
LOL- Tim- that's a Rhodes design- that sheer line is a dead giveaway ;D ;D
Ooooo.....Springy.
Beautiful boat. Someone is going to be a lucky owner of that one. Rich history, too.
Just to add on, I did a quick search on YachtWorld, putting in a price of 100 to 30k, and selected the "Gulf Coast" region, and "All Sail". Came up with 150 results ;D
Where in LA are you at? Its not that far of a drive from the Houston area. I know I have done New Orleans in just under 5 hours. My boat is about another 45 mins past, but if you ever want to spend a weekend shopping in Houston, i'll be happy to put you up there.
The head did smell like poop but just over all it wasn't a boat I was interested in.
I like the sc 31 the cape dory 28-31 I really like the 31 I think it is in Jackson FL but is to much maybe it will come down. There are a bunch of others I like I can't remember the names i really need to be writing them down. Thats another thing I brought a note pad along and after I looked at these boats I still wrote down everything I could about them even though I wasn't interested in them still gave me some practice.
I'm about 40 miles north of New Orleans and looking on yachtworld on the Gulf Coast is what I was just about to do after looking around on here.
I work with a guy who has his stinkpot somewhere over in New Orleans I need to ask him where his marina is maybe go walk down there looking at boats.
I would just jump in the car and start looking on the gulf coast but after Hurricane Katrina hit there I thought most of those boat were blown away but that was 4 years ago so there's got to be some marinas that have rebuilt.
I can now say after looking at the owner owned boat and working with a broker I think maybe going through a owner is better because you are on more a personal level you know? I just had a much better experience although I could be wrong this maybe not the case with all owners. I tried asking the broker some about the boat and he had no clue or just wasn't a very good broker and I don't think he was. I try not to judge people but I judge right a few weeks ago when I spoke with him on the phone but thought why not give em a try.
Thanks guys,
Chris
Hey Chris, check this beauty out!
http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1986/Custom-Gaff-rigged-Yawl-1773528/Madisonville/LA/United-States (http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1986/Custom-Gaff-rigged-Yawl-1773528/Madisonville/LA/United-States)
Just don't tell Aquila, she gets jealous sometimes!
want to buy a 37ft Hunter for a $1.00 dollar?? http://gulfport.craigslist.org/boa/1041124673.html
Quote from: nowell on February 27, 2009, 05:51:43 PM
Hey Chris, check this beauty out!
http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1986/Custom-Gaff-rigged-Yawl-1773528/Madisonville/LA/United-States (http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1986/Custom-Gaff-rigged-Yawl-1773528/Madisonville/LA/United-States)
Just don't tell Aquila, she gets jealous sometimes!
How do you find these finds?? I need to learn to use this dang yachtworld thing better. Madisonville well I was just over there in that area getting a haircutt today.
Quote from: s/v Faith on February 13, 2009, 06:54:04 PM
One fact in dealing with a broker, you are going to pay more for the boat....
They will also tell you that the seller will pay the commission.... who is bringing the checkbook to the table?
I have only been selling boats for a little over 5 years now, but haven't yet encountered a buyer willing to pay more than a boat was worth just because it was listed with a brokerage. Buyers these days have lots of resources, and usually have a pretty good idea what a boat is worth. I have seen plenty of owners who want to believe that I can magically produce those buyers, and who want to be paid what their boat is worth when it is sold. They want a service and are not willing to pay for it. I have learned not to bother listing those boats, and just tell people who want to net what a boat is worth to sell it themselves.
Quote from: Lynx on February 19, 2009, 08:42:03 AM
Take a gun and shoot them in the back. All they deserve.
It is very rare to find and honest one.
That's pretty harsh. Were you being honest when you said you would pay me to store your trailer in my driveway? Because you're a bit behind...
Quote from: TomRay on February 28, 2009, 12:10:43 PM
Quote from: s/v Faith on February 13, 2009, 06:54:04 PM
One fact in dealing with a broker, you are going to pay more for the boat....
They will also tell you that the seller will pay the commission.... who is bringing the checkbook to the table?
I have only been selling boats for a little over 5 years now, but haven't yet encountered a buyer willing to pay more than a boat was worth just because it was listed with a brokerage.
Agreed, However there are often (usually) a 'bottom' price a seller will accept. If there is no commission to consider then that bottom price can be paid by a buyer at a price that does not include the commission.
QuoteBuyers these days have lots of resources, and usually have a pretty good idea what a boat is worth.
Just because a deal closes at a price does not mean the boat was worth what was paid. I know a man who bought a (IMHO) $500 boat for $5000 because the broker (Mid size, NC) told him he could not do any better. Does this mean the opposite is not true? No, of course not. However I believe that the best advocate for a boat buyer is the boat buyer. The exceptions are rare enough that I believe it is fair to paint in broad stokes when talking about the industry.
QuoteI have seen plenty of owners who want to believe that I can magically produce those buyers, and who want to be paid what their boat is worth when it is sold.
Granted. I would also say that the broker often assumes the unfortunate position of having to give a seller a reality check. I will say that the broker is really unnecessary in this role, as the market does a great job of rewarding those with unrealistic expectations.... There boats tend to sit and rot.
QuoteThey want a service and are not willing to pay for it. I have learned not to bother listing those boats, and just tell people who want to net what a boat is worth to sell it themselves.
That is a good position, and I commend you for it. I will say that in my experience your view is the minority position among the brokers with whom I am familiar.
I would say that the brokers role in selling a 'sailfar' size boat is often more of an obstruction then a help. The simple fact of the math would explain it well. Some (many?, most?) brokers will take a listing, and hope for the best. If I am selling a $5k 25' boat, and list it with the same broker selling a $50k 40' boat, which boat's buyer is likely to get more attention? Who's boat is the broker most likely to aggressively market? There is no insult in the simple reality that the $5000 commission is a bigger incentive then the $500 commission. Accordingly, many I talk to, and read of report feeling blown off by listing brokers of SailFar size boats. I wish that this were not the case. I hate to hear of people being sold a bill of goods (not that all brokers are dishonest, but there is often a reason for the suspicion).
When shopping a few years ago 2 different brokers on 2 different boats I dealt with were (charitable to say) less then helpful. One, I spoke with about a gutted Allmand 31 swore that the asking price of $35k was reasonable. When pressed he cited 3 other boats advertised on Yachtworld..... at similar prices. None of course were gutted, but if I were inclined I am quite sure he would have sold me the boat for $35k.
Another case, I came across a thoroughly beaten OI36. The bowsprit had literally rotted and fallen off on the dock.... obvious years of neglect showed me a cruising boat that had cleanly been the victim of a bad relationship and had suffered for it. When I asked about the price, the broker told me with a straight face that the asking price was $50k. When I pressed him on it, he claimed he was thinking of another boat and that it was $30k (IIRC). Before even discussing it, he said he thought it could be had for $22,500.00. Now was he woefully incompetent>? Was he deserving of his %10? IF so, which number should his 10% be based on? The sales price or the other prices he made up>?
Look, I know there are good brokers. I have worked with them, one sea-trial and delivery I did was a complete mess, and the buyer was ready to pay too much. The broker, a local guy who did it part time was a great guy and actually undercut his own commission in helping the buyer pay less. He was just a fellow boater, making a couple bucks doing something he enjoyed. I bet you are one of those guys too. Otherwise you would probably not be posting on this site..... ;) The unfortunate reality is that there are many who have come to believe that there are much less brokers like you, and more like the others.
Fairwinds,
s/v faith,
Good write up, what I have just read that you wrote felt like the broker i dealt with on Thursday which was full of BS and finally when I could get him to come down off his high chair and talk to me like a human being he really didn't know much at all, just a lake sailor, if even that. I'm not gonna go on thinking all brokers are like this but i'm sure there are alot out there, all there for is to be used to look at boats and if they don't have what I like, drop em and move onto the next guy and keep on with my searching. I just can't stand that sweet talk like this broker and other car sales man do dam does it get under my skin LOL
Chris
Quote from: s/v Faith on February 28, 2009, 09:09:25 PMIf I am selling a $5k 25' boat, and list it with the same broker selling a $50k 40' boat, which boat's buyer is likely to get more attention? Who's boat is the broker most likely to aggressively market? There is no insult in the simple reality that the $5000 commission is a bigger incentive then the $500 commission. Accordingly, many I talk to, and read of report feeling blown off by listing brokers of SailFar size boats.
When people come to me wanting to sell a $5k "sailfar-appropriate" boat, the first thing I do is tell them we have a minimum commission of $2,000, and they're trying to kill a fly with a shotgun. That usually ends the discussion, and I send them off with a few suggestions on free/cheap ways to sell their boat themselves.
Most of my sales have been boats between $15,000 and $50,000. If I have to choose between devoting my time to someone looking at a $20k boat and someone else looking at a $120k boat, I'll consider not only the different size of the commissions, but also the likelihood of making a sale. A $2k commission that comes in is better than a $12k commission that doesn't materialize.
Quote from: TomRay on March 01, 2009, 07:21:59 AM
.......When people come to me wanting to sell a $5k "sailfar-appropriate" boat, the first thing I do is tell them we have a minimum commission of $2,000, and they're trying to kill a fly with a shotgun. That usually ends the discussion, and I send them off with a few suggestions on free/cheap ways to sell their boat themselves.......
Grog to you for this. If everyone in the industry did so, there would be far fewer bad experiences like what Chirs has related. :)
Chris: walk the docks, the right boat will find you sooner or later. I have never tried a broker, but I think 30K its a lot of money if you ask me. Walk the docks, talk to owners, a proud skipper will show you his boat. Skip the middle man, and when the right boat finds you, get a good surveyor to check the boat out, and that's it.
I think the problem is the same with any service industry.
Its a convenience based service.
So the "target audience" is people who are either incapable of doing the work themselves, or they are too lazy/stupid to do the work themselves.
Its not the brokers fault, its just how the service industry works. It makes sense that the majority of brokers will initially assume you are a moron and try to sell you poop you don't need, or they'll do their best to overcharge you initially, if you agree to it they win, If you don't then they have the option to either smarten up and deal with you like a human, or simply wait for the next dummy to come along. The lack of respect for their clients is inherent to their occupation.
I think there are 2 things that separate sailfar folks from other sailors out there, one is we are not rich :)
and 2 is we prefer to do things for ourselves, to put the work in and reap the rewards, that sort-of stuff.
Using a broker just doesn't usually fit our profile.
Of course, Sometimes we have to deal with a broker, like when we are in the 'just looking' phase of boat buying, or if its a broker that has the boat we want. The majority of the time, we will end up feeling disrespected and it will reinforce our sense of self-sufficiency.
Obviously there are exceptions, not every broker is a bad guy. But i think, in general, finding a sailfar person to advocate using a broker would be next to impossible.
I've walked the docks at a local marina but there wasn't really much being sold and the ones that were for sale were being sold by the broker I was dealith with. but I'm gonna keep checking back every couple of weeks and see what I can see.
I got an email from a old high school buddy who works at a yacht club in Gulfport and hopefully he can tell me of some marinas down there I can go and walk the docks and see what I can find..
Thanks,
Chris
I'd also check the back of Good Old Boat magazine and their website, since they have a fairly good selection of decent boats. There are also publications like Points East or Latitiude 38 that have a boat classifieds section.
Good Old Boat magazine I just orderd a copy of it.
Can anyone tell me have you heard of a boat yard around Lake Ocochowee FL ahh hard to spell it called Glades shipyard and indiantown shipyard?? I was told by someone to go check it out that theresalot of good boa deal in that yard.
Thanks
Chris
I've heard of Indiantown. Know nothing about it however.
Chris have you looked at SailingTexas.com? Lots of boats listed there.
Quote from: chris2998 on March 03, 2009, 06:16:31 AM
Good Old Boat magazine I just orderd a copy of it.
Can anyone tell me have you heard of a boat yard around Lake Ocochowee FL ahh uff to spell it called Galdes shipyard and indiantown shipyard?? I was told by someone to go check it out that theresalot of good boa deal in that yard.
Thanks
Chris
It's Okeechobee. Indiantown is where neglected boats go to die. For the most part they're cheap because they are project boats in a remote location far from open water or anything else. So yeah, it could be just the kind of place for people here to find a suitable project. ;)
Someone I know told me about it he said the same thing some boats are absolute JUNK but this guy has found some really good deals on boats and I think it was at a place called Glades.
yes I have looked at sailing texas and try and check back there every week or so.
thanks,
Chris
Quote from: dnice on March 01, 2009, 01:36:49 PM
I think the problem is the same with any service industry.
Its a convenience based service.
So the "target audience" is people who are either incapable of doing the work themselves, or they are too lazy/stupid to do the work themselves.
Its not the brokers fault, its just how the service industry works. It makes sense that the majority of brokers will initially assume you are a moron and try to sell you poop you don't need, or they'll do their best to overcharge you initially, if you agree to it they win, If you don't then they have the option to either smarten up and deal with you like a human, or simply wait for the next dummy to come along. The lack of respect for their clients is inherent to their occupation.
In my humble oppinion the above paragraph shows what is broke and wrong in todays good old USA A service business worker is not there to judge clients as stupid lazy or any other derogatory name. The customer is the person who makes it possible to buy his family the food on their table as as such should be treated with respect. Just my oppinion.
Melvin
(edit to close quote tags at the end of 'dnice's' original quote... s/v Faith)
I find it funny how some of you folks are really slamming brokers because you feel like they don't treat you with respect. Guess what - If you are just using the broker as a "tool" to help you window shop, or to get a feel of what boat you are interested in buying (telling them you are "ready to buy", but meanwhile you know you won't buy anything for a year, and you'll buy from a private seller at best, or be thinking about "shooting the broker in the back" at worst) - How would you feel if you where the broker?
***Brokers are people too*** Maybe if you treated them with the same respect that you expect, there wouldn't be so many bad experiences.
In fact, many brokers are sailors (yes, some are used car salesmen who last sailed a Laser at summer camp), but easy to see the difference. Would you talk about shooting your dock-neighbor or one of your hardcore Wednesday night race-crew in the back, would you waste their time and think nothiong of it? Because a lot of brokers are sailors who have chosen to make a living while still being involved with something they enjoy - believe me, being a successful salesman for most of my life, there is MUCH more money to be made in other industries. I choose to sell boats because I have a passion for them and enjoy the company of (most) of the people involved with them.
Quote from: Sonnie on March 18, 2009, 08:52:36 PM
I find it funny how some of you folks are really slamming brokers because you feel like they don't treat you with respect. Guess what - If you are just using the broker as a "tool" to help you window shop, or to get a feel of what boat you are interested in buying (telling them you are "ready to buy", but meanwhile you know you won't buy anything for a year, and you'll buy from a private seller at best, or be thinking about "shooting the broker in the back" at worst) - How would you feel if you where the broker?
***Brokers are people too*** Maybe if you treated them with the same respect that you expect, there wouldn't be so many bad experiences.
In fact, many brokers are sailors (yes, some are used car salesmen who last sailed a Laser at summer camp), but easy to see the difference. Would you talk about shooting your dock-neighbor or one of your hardcore Wednesday night race-crew in the back, would you waste their time and think nothiong of it? Because a lot of brokers are sailors who have chosen to make a living while still being involved with something they enjoy - believe me, being a successful salesman for most of my life, there is MUCH more money to be made in other industries. I choose to sell boats because I have a passion for them and enjoy the company of (most) of the people involved with them.
Sonnie,
There is no doubt many brokers out there with a passion for sailing who would like nothing better than to help get somebody into a boat they will love. I am sure they exist, I just haven't run into one :)
I have very limited experience, so obviously I can't speak for everyone and my opinion does not encompass the entire scale of brokers out there.
I just think, it is very difficult to respect somebody who is trying to sell me a catalina when I asked to look at a cape dory. it is very difficult to respect a person who figures my business is a waste of time, my tiny little bit of money will not help him enough to be worth any effort...
I may not know a whole lot about sailing or sailboats, but I do know a thing or two about being a salesman (as well as a customer)... I know that if a person is just "window shopping"
it is my job to present them with information and/or products that will either provoke them to make a purchase, or at the very least, come back to see more at a later time. It is
not my job to try and sell them something for twice the normal price just because they look like a kook with money. It is also not my job to sell something to somebody that they are not asking for and they do not need, just to make a sale. Any good salesman with respect for his clients will make an impression on me and there will be no confusion, those are the ones I would deal with (and have yet to encounter).
A broker, or car salesman, or any other salesman, who thinks that just because this person is not actually going to buy something
today, then they are not worth his time or effort... is not a person I would ever give my respect to, and at the very least, not a very good salesman.
Again, I am sure there are good brokers out there, and god bless em! I have even talked to a few who have been helpful and respectful. The problem is the majority of my experiences have not been good. As a result, I would much prefer going through private sellers and avoiding brokers like the plague.
That is my opinion, based on my experiences.
And honestly, I've bought plenty of used cars before (like 12 or so) and came to the same conclusion a long time ago about those... I really don't see how yacht brokers are any different. Yeah there are those who are respectful and decent and love what they do... but as far as I can tell, they are few and far between.
PS: Apparently all the good brokers are either already a member of this forum or will be soon :) so it is safe to assume we are not talking about you when we say bad things about brokers in general.
Unfortunately, like any industry, it only takes a few bad apples in the barrel to tarnish the reputation of the rest. There are some good brokers out there, but more often, at least in my experience, many are looking for the big sale and not interested in helping you if you're not looking for 40'+ boat. The same is true of realtors, used car salesmen, and other sales staff in general, especially those that work on a commission basis.
What a lot of these people don't seem to realize, is that being nice to people just starting out looking at smaller boats, houses, cars, is a good idea, because these same people are often the ones that will come back and buy their next larger boat, house, car...and often have friends who would also be interested in buying a boat, house, or car. By pissing them off—treating them poorly—they pretty much guarantee they'll not get any future sales or referrals.
I don't know about you... but when someone treats me well, I'm happy to say so... and will tell anybody who asks. If someone treats me badly, I'll tell everyone I know... even if they don't ask. :) Which would you rather have, someone making the occasional referral, or someone telling people to avoid you at all costs...
Last spring, I was helping a friend look for a boat to buy. I called and e-mailed at least two dozen brokers concerning boats I thought were suitable for her and wanted to setup visits to see the boats. Of the phone calls and e-mails, only SEVEN were returned. Three of them were to say that the boats in question had been sold or were under offer, the other four were calls asking as to when would be possible to visit. Granted, these boats were in the $20,000-30,000 range, and not real big ticket items, but you'd think that a possible commission of $2000-3000 would be at least worth responding to. Of the brokers in question, I think eight are still in business, and seven of the eight were the ones that responded to me. Hmmm...coincidence, I think not.
She ended up buying a boat from one of my marina neighbors. He's not a sailor and his cousin gave him a Cal 27, so he asked me if I knew anyone who might be interested. No broker commissions, no hassles.
dnice I would have to agree with you 100% I couldn't have said it better
My one experience was like a used car sales man I really do believe the guy thought I was 21 years old, yes i do look very young but really I'm 29. He treated me like some dumb poor high school kid and even mentioned like maybe you should talk to you're parents and asking them for a LOAN for more then 30 gran to buy you're first boat. I was like what the **** how old does this guy really think I am. It doesn't matter if I'm 40 or 16 for someone to treat me like that H*LL no. I have emailed another broker who seemd ok well he emailed me back once and haven't heard from him again no twice but at least didn't treat me like a freaking idiot and didn't waste my time like this guy did.
I told him everything I wanted in a boat and he seemd to act like he knew what I needed.
I was thinking like dude you don't know what the h*ll I need, that just blew my mind I will never use him again and will never recommend him to anyone, all he had to say is sorry I don't have what you're looking for and I would have shaked his hand and said thanks for helping me and I would have recommended him to someone else that he could have helped out but not now. I'll give another broker a try but the second I see him wasteing my time I'm gone.
I can say this though I found a cape dory 33 it was in Florida, I emailed the broker asking questions about it and he emailed me back fast in answering my questions he even emailed me back again 2 weeks later to make sure i got his email. I told him I'd probally be coming down there this summer to do some boat shopping and if the boat is still available that I would like to take a closer look at it. He was very friendly and I even asked for a certain boat and he said he would put the word out, he seemd like a pretty nice guy, he has not sold me a boat but just by being nice like he was I'd recommend him to someone else looking. It's easy being friendly to people it doesn't cost you anything, but it gets you're name out there for people in the future to use you. So yeah there are some nice brokers out there but I dought there is all that many.
Chris