Hi all,
I would really like to do some full time cruising at some point in the future.
I realize that the issue of monthly cruising expenses is highly subjective and dependent on the desires and necessities of the crew but I am trying to get a realistic estimate of what to expect.
Keeping my goal planning realistic to our skill level, I would anticipate that we will be keeping things state-side for awhile and then possibly moving on to the Bahamas.
Although I would have to quit a great job to go cruising, we have four really good things going for us:
1. We are somewhat young-ish (in our 30s)
2. Even without a job, I have guaranteed monthly income
3. My wife is blissfully employed and works three times a week but it is all online so as long as she can find a reliable internet connection, she's in business. She also has the option to take up to three months off with little notice which is great if we ever want to explore or remain somewhere more remote. ;D
4. Our 24' boat is entirely paid for
I am trying to figure out what, if any, extra money we would need to live well while cruising so that I can plan accordingly.
Assuming that insurance (health and boat) were covered, how well could we expect to live on about 3K a month? ???
Thanks, in advance, for any input.
Might I suggest that you rephrase the question?
QuoteCan I afford to Cruise?
"Can I afford not to cruise?"Your 4 points are excellent, and frankly show a wisdom that is beyond the grasp of many.
Life happens, and things change rapidly. If you choose not to go now, what is it likely to cost?
What is regret worth? What happens if your circumstances change, and you are forced to wait... or not go?
What will the income you are likely to make be worth to you if;
- your health suffers,
- your partners health suffers,
- Your relationship becomes strained, or your perspectives no longer line up on cruising?
Or how about asking what the cost of living life in the mean time... without the experiences you will gain and the perspective?
Some might argue these points, some might say that you can work now and cruise later (some would justify this saying that your boat is too small, or you don't have some item some magazine told them they needed).....
My advice is to go.... the money you might be able to make later... the time is gone once you spend it.
May you be at peace with whatever you decide.
Sounds like you have thought this out. My experience has been the opportunity to cruise only comes best at the age you are right now, jobs come and go.
As the years continue, it becomes harder and harder to pull it off, GO NOW.
I agree with Faith. Go now. You can do ok on 3k a month. We are going to do it in a 22' boat and half that just as soon as the doctors release me. I am a cancer survivor.
So you never know what life will deal you tomorrow. Go now and have fun. Don't sweat the small stuff.
3k a month? There are plenty of people out there doing it on 10k a YEAR. Probably some doing it on a lot less (although I suspect we are getting to a pretty minimalist level at this point). With a 24 foot boat your onboard expenses should be pretty reasonable, and you probably don't have too many expensive and complicated systems. After that it comes down to how much you like marinas and the expensive shore life. I would think lifestyle choices are going to be your biggest expense, and the one thing that is practically impossible for someone else to judge.
Not that I've gone out for more than a few weeks, mind you. YMMV.
Do it. Do it. Do it.
Otherwise, you'll be looking back in 20 years, no closer to cruising than you are now, and kicking yourself for a missed opportunity.
I'll echo the replies of others and refer you to the Mark Twain quote in my forum signature.
As for the $3000 per month, that is a LOT. What do you plan to spend this money on? Cruising is not quite like what we generally think of as "vacationing." When cruising, you do spend blobs of money in doses, but then you go long periods of time without much money spent at all.
If you are thinking long term, and REALLY want to cruise inexpensively without TOO much sacrifice of comfort and enjoyment, I highly recommend Lin and Larry Pardey's book The Cost Conscious Cruiser: Champagne Cruising on a Beer Budget.
They outline real world (though perhaps slightly dated) numbers on outfitting by giving charts of several real "low cost" cruisers like the Hiscocks vs the "ideal" cruiser per the magazines. If you read these charts and understand the underlying significance, it becomes clear that the "ideal" that is sold is ideal only in separating you from your money. The cruisers in the "cheap" columns of that chart have logged several hundreds of thousands of cruising miles and tens of circumnavigations, so the advice is born of experience.
They also discuss other cost saving strategies such as anchoring rather than marinas, which is pretty obvious, but less obvious is to SAIL rather than MOTOR, even when the wind is light. This may mean working with wind and tide in a way that is anathema to modern American cruisers...specifically in the form of giving up schedules. Fuel costs money, and may represent one of the biggest costs per month depending upon how you approach your boating.
Since you will mostly choose to stay in port when the weather is bad, paying particular attention to the light air days is worthwhile. In other words, heavy weather gets the press, but as I've heard from others "in the know," light air makes the sailor. I like to specifically train my light air sailing, and find it very enjoyable to make miles, even at 1-2 knots, cleanly, quietly and FOR FREE.
There are, of course, places you cannot practically sail...the ICW (Gulf and Atlantic) has big stretches where motoring is virtually required...unless you are VERY patient to wait for the right conditions. ;) Threfore, ICW cruising tends to be more expensive (motoring, plus you tend to stop in towns with all those inviting restaurants and other things to do)...so, when possible, consider jumping outside. The sailing is better and the routes are often shorter. This is certainly true of the East Coast from the tip of Florida northward. You can easily cover 2-3x (or even MUCH more) the distance in the same period of time in offshore "jumps" with very little motoring as compared ICW motoring.
Lin and Larry's strategy is not to give up comfort and fun at all...rather, theirs is a strategy of saving money where they can (for example, moving the boat from place to place) and enjoying the money they DO spend in those places that interest them. To me at least, it's a fascinating philosophy.
3000 a month!!! wow!!
I wish we had that much to cruise on- we do it on around half that, give or take.
Go for it.
Rachel and I were spending something around 300 a month each over our winter cruise of the Gulf and Keys.
We:
-never stayed at a marina, but always anchored or looked for a free tie-up.
-sailed at every possible opportunity and seriously weighed staying put vs. motoring and burning fuel
-rely entirely on solar power to generate our electricity. No running the motor or generator to create power.
-cook all our meals on board and eat out rarely. We make price lists of staple items and over buy when we find them at a lower than average price.
-we eat a mostly vegan diet, which eliminates many quickly perishable foods and the need to spend $100 a month on store-bought ice. Soy milk and tofu don't spoil very quickly.
Food and fuel were our main expenses. I realize that our budget may be on the spartan side of the bell curve, but even then we still felt we had room to tighten up if necessary. Don't let money get in your way. Go now!
Grog to all in this thread...so encouraging...I love this site. :)
Quote from: Tim on March 20, 2011, 05:36:12 AM
As the years continue, it becomes harder and harder to pull it off, GO NOW.
Go for it, by all means. And go for it NOW!
Take it from somebody who is already too old and too tied down to move aboard -- do it while you can. But make sure both of you are committed equally.
--Joe
Thanks for the feedback!
You all have given me quite a bit to think about; I really appreciate all of this great advice and encouragement - I am pumped up. It's also very comforting to hear that there are people out there having a blast while cruising on a modest budget.
I have heard that there are people cruising on around 10K a year but it just sounds too good to be true; whenever I hear the 10K figure, I always envision people chewing on leather belts for several weeks in order to keep food costs in line. I just want to make sure that I don't have to cut my cruising plans drastically short due to poor budgeting; I have read some cruising folks mention $9 cheeseburgers :o as though that is a fairly good (or standard) price and that makes me nervous about less frivolous (and more costly) expenses.
As a number of you mentioned, I am concerned that if we do not go sometime soon, things are likely to change and we may never be able to go at all. Time is one of the reasons why I decided to get a small boat in the first place. I am fairly certain that one of the main reasons why I have been able to get even to this point is because my vision has never extended far beyond my grasp. I credit people like the Pardeys and sailors/cruisers like the kind here at Sailfar for the wisdom of setting clearly attainable goals.
I have a family member who has expressed an interest in cruising and we have spent many hours talking about the subject. For some reason, he has decided that he 'just can't do it' on anything less than a 36' catamaran. I suppose I might be able to understand his reasoning better if he had a wife and a couple of children but, at this point, it would just be him. I really hope to god that he gets that boat someday but I do wonder if his goal is reasonable and even if he does get it, I wonder if it will be worth all of the lost opportunities and adventures that he will have had to sacrifice along the way. After reading Faith's response, I am starting to wonder if my concern over finances is my own, metaphorical '36' catamaran' for why I 'just can't do it'. It's a lot to think about and it is making me take a nice long look in the big mirror.
Still, one of my primary concerns is my wife's level of happiness and comfort. I consider myself exceptionally lucky to have a wife who would even vaguely entertain far flung ideas about cruising for extended periods of time in a 24' sailboat. However, I know that our long term success will depend, to a great extent, on whether or not my wife is happy and enjoying the experience and this is one of the primary reasons why I am thinking ahead about finances.
My wife is a really good sport and she has a sturdy inner strength about her. My concern is the compound effects from things that we can't control like weather, wind and sea conditions and on top of all that a situation where neither of us have had a shower in two weeks, we can't afford deodorant and are stuck eating dried apricots for the eleventh day; that might make for an amusing and entertaining story but my suspicion is that if it got to the point where this was the norm for a prolonged period of time, the story would likely be told many miles from the nearest body of water. :'( The fact is that I want to go cruising, badly, but I want to be with my wife more so I need to keep her onboard (both literally and figuratively); I would certainly welcome any sage advice on this topic as it is hugely important to me.
Captain Smollett, thanks for the recommended read; I will pick up a copy. I read a couple of books on the Pardeys' adventures while sailing Seraphin (sp?) a number of years ago, really good stuff. As for motoring, my boat is pretty heavy for her size and I have a very strong feeling that I will be using the motor a great deal more than I would like to, at least for the foreseeable future. However, I am going to make a serious effort to cut down or largely eliminate its use, altogether, as soon as possible.
Charlie and James, that is really good to hear since both of you cruise with a significant other and are actually out there doing it on that kind of a budget; it gives me some much needed confidence. Wow, I'm feeling really good about this.
In fact, I think it is time to go have a talk with the Wifey... ;D
Thanks all!
Quote from: Namaste on March 21, 2011, 10:14:45 PM
I have heard that there are people cruising on around 10K a year but it just sounds too good to be true; whenever I hear the 10K figure, I always envision people chewing on leather belts for several weeks in order to keep food costs in line.
I don't think so, in general. Maybe $10k a year is on the lower end of the curve, but not by much. $1000 per month is a standard that seems to be pretty high "living on the hog," but that does depend greatly on where you are cruising.
What is your food budget now? *IF* you can manage to sail more than motor and do NOT rely on the engine for things like charging batts or a cold plate fridge (as has been mentioned), food will be your biggest expense and one that you cannot eliminate completely.
To put it into perspective, we are a family of four living aboard, and we CAN eat without too much discomfort at all...and my wife is a doctor so we eat on the 'healthier' end of the spectrum...for about $130 per week, or $6760 per year. We could easily shave that even smaller without too much effort, and yes, that's buying a LOT of fresh fruits and veggies.
I would think a couple could manage the food costs pretty tightly and still be 'comfortable.'
Quote
I just want to make sure that I don't have to cut my cruising plans drastically short due to poor budgeting; I have read some cruising folks mention $9 cheeseburgers :o as though that is a fairly good (or standard) price and that makes me nervous about less frivolous (and more costly) expenses.
And grog to you for thinking about it this way...
But on the $9 burger, I'm assuming you think that is a LOT to spend on a burger. Yep, it is. But, think of that $9 burger as a luxurious, once in a very blue moon thing - NOT every night. Underway or anchored out in the 'boonies,' it doesn't even require self discipline to not eat out. You are then spending VERY little on your food, and NOTHING on a slip or other shore based traps.
In other words, you can enjoy the frivolity of a $9 burger once in a while because of money you are NOT spending elsewhere. This is completely different from the shore based life where ongoing expenses are always there (rent, gas for the car, insurance for the car, maybe parking fees, electric bill, water bill, etc). THAT is where the money to occasionally be frivolous comes from, and you will need to do that once in a while.
Craig ("s/v Faith") has posted on here some of his real-world expenditures from his cruise in the Bahamas. That's well worth the read.
Quote
I have a family member who has expressed an interest in cruising and we have spent many hours talking about the subject. For some reason, he has decided that he 'just can't do it' on anything less than a 36' catamaran. I suppose I might be able to understand his reasoning better if he had a wife and a couple of children but, at this point, it would just be him.
Invite him to join here to get the counterpoints? ;D
Quote
I am starting to wonder if my concern over finances is my own, metaphorical '36' catamaran' for why I 'just can't do it'. It's a lot to think about and it is making me take a nice long look in the big mirror.
Another grog for that later when I can.
Quote
Still, one of my primary concerns is my wife's level of happiness and comfort. I consider myself exceptionally lucky to have a wife who would even vaguely entertain far flung ideas about cruising for extended periods of time in a 24' sailboat. However, I know that our long term success will depend, to a great extent, on whether or not my wife is happy and enjoying the experience and this is one of the primary reasons why I am thinking ahead about finances.
My wife is a really good sport and she has a sturdy inner strength about her. My concern is the compound effects from things that we can't control like weather, wind and sea conditions and on top of all that a situation where neither of us have had a shower in two weeks, we can't afford deodorant and are stuck eating dried apricots for the eleventh day; that might make for an amusing and entertaining story but my suspicion is that if it got to the point where this was the norm for a prolonged period of time, the story would likely be told many miles from the nearest body of water. :'( The fact is that I want to go cruising, badly, but I want to be with my wife more so I need to keep her onboard (both literally and figuratively); I would certainly welcome any sage advice on this topic as it is hugely important to me.
And yet another for thinking this one through... :)
"Reduction of misery." Craig's fine advice to me when I was where you are in the process.
Few of us, male or female, wants an excessive degree of discomfort. The key here is to communicate with her what she wants...and let her help you set up the boat, have input in how things will be done. Of course, she may not get ALL of the "wants," but compromises can be made.
Also get and read Debra Cantrell's
Changing Course. It's an excellent book regarding women and the decision to go cruising.
Quote
As for motoring, my boat is pretty heavy for her size and I have a very strong feeling that I will be using the motor a great deal more than I would like to, at least for the foreseeable future. However, I am going to make a serious effort to cut down or largely eliminate its use, altogether, as soon as possible.
Ok, fair enough. But, consider that motoring = $$ (fuel, maintenance and repairs) and there's another "36 ft catamaran" for you. Engines tend to break when you'd rather be doing something else. Using it is not a "sin," but
relying on it might be. ;)
I think all of this is interconnected...cruising is to some degree about independence and freedom.
:D
I should point out that if I didn't go cruising, Laura would be apt to just go without me
:D
One of the neat things she did was to can meats ( half pint jars) so we could have a good quantity and variety aboard. She uses a pressure cooker as an oven too- bakes bread, biscuits, cakes, potatos, etc in it.
And no reason to forgo a shower- we use a pump up shower (from Duckworks-http://www.duckworksbbs.com/gear/shower/index.htm)
Comes complete and ready for use, AS a shower. Lives in the cockpit. We can get two really nice showers, or four very short ones from it- HOT water too.
And forget about the "too old" stuff- Hey- I'm 70 ;D
Quote from: Captain Smollett on March 21, 2011, 10:52:19 PM
Craig ("s/v Faith") has posted on here some of his real-world expenditures from his cruise in the Bahamas. That's well worth the read.
Found it here. (http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php/topic,72.msg24218.html#msg24218)
Summary:
First three months, in the States, moving the boat from NC to FL: Average $1358 per month.
Three and a half months in the Bahamas: Average $1021 per month.
Last month and a third, back the States: $545 per month (no marinas)
Or, looking near the end of the post, he has $7648 for 8 months....about $950 per month for ALL expenses (including vet bills and the like, not just boat related stuff).
Finally,
Quote from: 's/v Faith'
We still cruised for about $35 a day (or $3 a mile). We did what we wanted, ate where we wanted, stayed were we wanted. I do not like high end marinas.. I don?t feel comfortable wasting money for someone?s idea of POSH. We did eat several pricey meals just because we felt like it. I am confident that we could do it for far less.
Quote from: Namaste on March 21, 2011, 10:14:45 PM
Still, one of my primary concerns is my wife's level of happiness and comfort. I consider myself exceptionally lucky to have a wife who would even vaguely entertain far flung ideas about cruising for extended periods of time in a 24' sailboat. However, I know that our long term success will depend, to a great extent, on whether or not my wife is happy and enjoying the experience and this is one of the primary reasons why I am thinking ahead about finances.
This is a very valid concern, and you're showing your own depth of character by raising it.
My advice, posted on earlier threads as well, is to start out with your wife on daysails, follow them up with short overnight cruises and finally try a week or more. Be sure that she's comfortable onboard, that she is willing to learn sailing and that she really shares your passion.
If not, reconsider your plan. You can still cruise, but you might feel that you have to limit it somewhat.
I can't tell you how many marriages have fallen apart over sailing and cruising. My own marriage has remained intact, but only because we are each willing to let the other indulge his or her interest. I don't care for gardening and my wife doesn't like long trips on the boat (especially after a very unpleasant seasickness episode).
When I take a multi-day cruise, she will meet me by car at the other end, and she actually enjoys sleeping on board. But I know that if I were to propose dropping everything and moving aboard I would have to do so alone.
Good luck, and make sure your wife buys into your plans.
--Joe
Interesting topic. I'm chiming in late but can tell ya that $3000mth is much more than most spend. The key to any of this is being totally honest with yourselves.
#If 'cold' is a must for her...have an engal and decent solar panel
# the shower Charlie mentions is premo...I even use it at the cottage..very water-use friendly
#you/she will probably want the 'odd' night at a mooring if its really windy. Figure about $10 per night..worth it if its really blowing for a few nights to keep up moral (other opinions vary, BUT if she's new to this...why scare her)
# figure a few dinners out to get off the boat and a few happy hour sundowners
#you'd be surprised how cruisers make their own fun. Bonfires, cookouts and dinners/drinks aboard seem often while anchored out.
#cruisers love to share where they got a bargain...be it groceries or the best/cheapest place to eat/drink out. It's a community once you're out there..honest!
# your biggest drain will be the time spent in eateries or bars and marinas. Keep those 3 to minimal (but not so minimal to feel deprived) and you'll be totally surprised how cheap it is. Bahamas is expensive, but rum is $10 a bottle and entertainment on beachs with other cruisers is free.
#I honestly spend less per mth here than home...
I agree..."GO NOW" ;D
But make sure to do what is needed to keep everyone aboard happy.
Go Go Go we have been doing it on half of what you are considering and doing well. Our only constant bills have been to Tow Boat (don't leave the docks without it) and about $5 a month for LP gas, then food and if it wasn't the fact I eat like a horse we could cut our cost in half.
We have great places to anchore where we can walk to grocery stores and places like Home Depot when the 1st mate finds projects for me to do.
We started out with an air card on the computer that let us get on line anywhere and should work out great for your 1st mate to do her job.
Hope to see you out here.
Come to think about..I've been tied to the dock, in a high priced area, and I'm paying $230/mo for the slip..another $50-$75 in food. that means I'm spending around $305 a month. when I head back to the boat yard my costs will go down to $75/mo and $10/mo for shore power and water, and I think the food will be the same, around $75/mo...(cheaper sometimes because I don't eat out and I was going with can and dry foods because of no refrigerator) this month I have a mini fridge, and a better cooking grill.
I'm thinking my cost for the next few months will be $175-$250. I'm adding a few extra for the new food stuff and the cost of gas. I will do a few over night sails maybe a couple days on the hook exploring the Northern part of the bay. it all depends on the weather as to how long I will stay away from the dock this spring.
PS just added up the true for being dock in the middle of Hampton..$334 (including gas, dockage, food, and a couple of city bus tickets to go to walmart)
Is that 50 to 75 per month for food? What kind of foods do you eat on that budget?
$50-$75 a month is not out of line. I like those instant rice or pasta side dishes that come in bags, a dollar or less and I can get two meals out of one. Just add boiling water and 'cup-of-noodles' is lunch for 28 cents. I have even learned to like Spam.
Larry
Quote from: skylark on March 29, 2011, 07:05:32 AM
Is that 50 to 75 per month for food? What kind of foods do you eat on that budget?
I wonder the same, Our food bill for 2 per week has to be near $100 a week.
I don't buy a lot of snack stuff. I buy stuff like dry cereal for snacking. I don't get many UN canned meats, and veggies, because I don't have any refrigeration.
I have getting stuff like those square bags of noddles, and buy a big bag of rice lots of canned food that last 2 months...(4 cans of spaghetti's and ravioli(sic) only cost $3.75 at dollar general here) I get spam a Lot..well the no name brand. lots of dry foods like noodles, pancake mix, beenie weenies, pork n beans, I buy the big bag of beans, potatoes. the potatoes costed $4, yesterday, but I have seen them cheaper in the past.
the rice comes in a big bag like 6lbs or so. I just put it in a Tupperware container. the can stuff I have been getting was running about $.65/can, for veggies, and a little more for meats...maybe like $.85 for chicken...$.85 for cream of mushroom soup, canned ham $1, corn beef is higher, but I get it every so often any way..lol. you can get better deals on the cream of mushroom soups. I buy a lot of stuff from the sales sections...most of it is not damaged, just getting rid of old stock.
I was getting gatoraid for $1/bottle...it was the big bottle too...from food lion.
if you have a another friend yall can hit somewhere that sells the 20lb bag of rice for really cheap. I think sam's club sells it like that.
I think the noodles I got were called Roman noodles, and come with a little packet of flavored powder. I use the noodle with cream of mushroom soup, add a can of chicken, and you get a meal.
I also catch fish on week ends, BBQ them.
disclaimer...I am single and eat like twice a day, and I don't cook huge 3 coarse meals..lol. I'll cook beenie weenies, and add BBQ sauce and onions and sugar t it, and some bread, at that's a meal for me. lol.
Hi all!
Thanks for all of the responses!
I have not figured out how to cut and paste quotes so forgive me for simply responding to each poster by name.
Charlie, thank you very much for the tip about the solar shower. Having done a good deal of camping over the years, I love the solar shower bags and the shower that you recommended looks like a major, major improvement. I had read a previous thread where someone (not sure if it was you) had mentioned that it's also useful for cleaning off ground tackle whenever weighing anchor. One fix for two problems; I love it! However, I am curious how well the shower's pump holds out and if the pump provides enough pressure to lift all of the water out of the canister. Have you ever had any problems with the shower? Have you noticed any flaws in the design? I have spent a LOT of time trying to figure out how to set up a good shower system. My wife is not a regular at the local beauty salon but she does love her shower time and I really needed a good solution for this problem. I am definitely going with this. Thank you!
Capt. Smollett, you've given me so much useful information, such thorough explanations and such sound advice that I have found myself going back and rereading your posts ten or more times; thank you! You have somehow even managed to make me feel at peace over the prospect of forking out $9 for a cheeseburger.
I would like to read more about Craig's 'reduction of misery' principle that you have mentioned. I have looked around in the forum but have not been able to find much. Are there any threads dedicated to discussion on the topic? Are there any other threads in which the topic is discussed at length? The link that you provided to the thread on Faith was fantastic. Thanks, again.
I have already ordered the Pardey book that you recommended and I will order the second book asap; thanks for that, as well.
I really like your advice about avoiding motor dependency. I think you called the engine exactly what it is when you said that it is just another metaphorical, '36' catamaran'. I certainly do not want to be at the mercy of the engine as my only means for topping off the batteries. After looking at the options, I plan to go with solar panels.
Generators are last on my list as this would take up valuable storage space (along with extra fuel) on a sailboat that is already on the smaller side. In addition, the generator runs on fuel so I am still looking at additional fuel costs as well as inevitable mechanical problems. On top of all of that, the noise makes generators a very unappealing choice. So adding some solar panels and additional batteries is, currently, one of the items on my priority list.
I have been considered buying a couple of 50W rigid polycrystalline Kyocera solar panels. If anyone has used these panels, I would love to hear some feedback, especially concerning quality, longevity, effectiveness as well as any problems or flawed features. I have read that MPPT charge controllers are a good choice. I am still not sure if I actually need an inverter and I'm tempted to forego the expense.
Frank, I am hoping to avoid a fridge and just see how far we can go on ice. I am pretty optimistic that we can do alright with ice but we'll have to see how it goes. I might be making a mistake on this one, we'll just have to wait and see.
The advice about taking the wife for a night out (or even off) of the boat is a very good idea. Having a chance to go out for diner or drinks will be a good way to deal with the cramped (or as I like to call it, 'cozy') conditions on the boat. My overall plan is to start slow with lots of marina time and short day sails. Once she feels more confident, we will do some harbor hoping, then on to a mooring ball and after that maybe go for a night out. I haven't really thought of a strict timing on how to do this. Intuition tells me to go slow and let her comfort level dictate the pace. I have even toyed with the idea of renting a couple lasers and just playing around and showing her all the points of sail as a starting point. If any of you all have any good ideas or suggestions about how to do this, please let me know. I would sure welcome some guidance.
All of the things that I have heard about the cruising community have been extremely positive. I have a great deal that I still need to learn and it would be great to learn firsthand from people who already know what they are doing. I plan to volunteer to help with any repair work that anyone is doing on their boat so I can learn as much as possible. I figure at first, I might just be the guy who hands out the tools but sooner or later, if I learn enough, I might actually know something that someone else doesn't and I can payback the community by actually being useful. :)
Mario, thanks for the budget information and the tip on the air card for internet access; I will check it out. My thinking is that if the wife can keep her job (with the exception of a few sabbaticals), we might be able to do this for an extended period of time.
I am glad that you brought up anchoring because I am curious how this works. In Florida, it seems that there is a great deal of liberty with respect to anchoring. In fact, I have found very little about anchoring limitations (aside from obvious things like anchoring in a shipping lane etc.). Are you basically free to anchor most anywhere in Florida waters (aside from the aforementioned shipping lanes and restricted areas)?
Hearsejr, your food budget is amazingly low. I would like to think that my eating habits are fairly modest. Like you, I only eat twice a day (lunch and dinner). Still, my individual food budget has to be somewhere around $50-70 a week. I think I will keep a strict record over the next few days to get a clearer idea of how much I am spending on food.
Luckily, my wife and I are not big drinkers so I am hoping that we can save some money and keep Captain Morgan from plundering the cruising kitty. Neither of us smoke so that helps, too.
It is wonderful to hear everyone saying 'GO NOW'. Whenever I talk about the subject to other people (family, friends, coworkers) they always look at me like I am crazy (especially when I get to the part about the boat being 24' in length). It looks like money is not a problem. The only other necessities are essential gear and required skills; perhaps I should start another thread for this topic.
Thanks, again, to all who have responded here and to all of the outstanding information and advice; I really appreciate it.
"Charlie, thank you very much for the tip about the solar shower. Having done a good deal of camping over the years, I love the solar shower bags and the shower that you recommended looks like a major, major improvement. I had read a previous thread where someone (not sure if it was you) had mentioned that it's also useful for cleaning off ground tackle whenever weighing anchor. One fix for two problems; I love it! However, I am curious how well the shower's pump holds out and if the pump provides enough pressure to lift all of the water out of the canister. Have you ever had any problems with the shower? Have you noticed any flaws in the design? I have spent a LOT of time trying to figure out how to set up a good shower system. My wife is not a regular at the local beauty salon but she does love her shower time and I really needed a good solution for this problem. I am definitely going with this. Thank you!"
No problem. Happy to help.
We have a solar shower (bag style) aboard also, but haven't used it since getting the pump-up one. The only problem we've had was it needed a new O-ring around the top. Other than that it works fine.. We use it for bathes, and for rinsing dishes. It lives in the starboard rear corner of the cockpit, right beside the tiller mounting. Sits there all the time, ready for use.
One thing you'll find though. The solar shower will get the water hotter but we've never had that be a problem. And on a chilly day you can just heat up a tea-kettle of water and pour it in.
Now this is set up as a shower. the head puts out a shower style spray, so it would not work spraying anchor line off. I just use a canvas bucket that Laura made. Plans from one of the Pardey's books. Can't tell you which one because they are all on the boat.
Here's what it looks like though-
(http://data.sailboatowners.com/photos/1301443778.jpg)
Thanks for the kind words.
Quote from: Namaste on March 29, 2011, 06:07:54 PM
I would like to read more about Craig's 'reduction of misery' principle that you have mentioned. I have looked around in the forum but have not been able to find much. Are there any threads dedicated to discussion on the topic? Are there any other threads in which the topic is discussed at length? The link that you provided to the thread on Faith was fantastic. Thanks, again.
Craig's principle does not really have its own thread, but here's the gist (Craig, if I may):
Most of us on this site diverge from the 'popular' notions of what it takes to cruise. "Leave the comforts at the shore" could be a mantra. We espouse KISS cruising and a LOT of stuff on this site seems devoted to doing "without."
Well, that's only part of the story. It's too easy to get into a mindset that we give up "too much," and thus turn what SHOULD be an enjoyable lifestyle into a self-imposed misery. Craig's idea is the counter to that ... don't spring TOO far into the KISS that you eliminate ALL enjoyment.
In short, we should all find those areas where we might feel that oversimplification of our boats leads to perceived "misery." Personally, I see this as different from mere "comfort," but some may equate the two. Hence, we must all compromise to keep our own boats in the 'sweet spot.'
TOO many amenities and too much "comfort" built into the boat can easily turn into spending all one's time fixing stuff. Too little comfort and we are miserable, so what's the point of even doing it?
For each of us, there is that magic degree in this trade-off that makes it work. The 'conventional wisdom' wants to tell us what is necessary to be comfortable; here on SailFar, I think, we bang against that conventional wisdom but provide allowance for each to make his or her own compromises.
Example: I LOVE the idea of sailing engineless. My wife does not. We have an engine on our boat. I don't have to use it in those circumstances that I think we don't need it.
Finally, there is more than one way to skin a cat. As an example, if you or your wife feels like you cannot cruise without a shower on board, this does NOT mean you HAVE to have running hot and cold water and a full enclosed shower compartment. There are ways to solve the showering problem to get what you (or she) needs and still keep the boat in the KISS category. Even if not, even if you go the way of "systems," it's your boat, your choices.
All we "ask" is that each skipper choose this for him/herself...choose what compromises to KISS vs comfort to make...and not fall into the trap of following the advertisers who say it's a "must have."
Quote
Frank, I am hoping to avoid a fridge and just see how far we can go on ice. I am pretty optimistic that we can do alright with ice but we'll have to see how it goes. I might be making a mistake on this one, we'll just have to wait and see.
You may want to look into beefing up the insulation of your ice box/cooler, then. We, too, use only ice (no fridge and no plan to add one). Block ice lasts MUCH longer than cube or crushed ice, especially if you can get it frozen really cold (ie, not JUST cold enough to freeze).
Three six quart blocks of ice lasts us a couple of weeks. Contrast with cubes, which only goes a day or two.
Quote
The advice about taking the wife for a night out (or even off) of the boat is a very good idea. Having a chance to go out for diner or drinks will be a good way to deal with the cramped (or as I like to call it, 'cozy') conditions on the boat.
Yes, "get off the boat" is an important mantra...whether that's in town or exploring on the dinghy, walking along a beach or shoreline, etc. This is a blessing, though.
I think one of the problems people have with boats that "requires" them to have ALL the bells and whistles (a galley "just like" the kitchen at home, huge "closets" for clothes, large "living rooms" etc)...and thus a 45+ footer for a couple...is because they are trying to do all their living ON the boat. There will be times when you have to stay on the boat, but usually then, you are working...too busy (or too tired) to worry about how big it is and how much space you have.
In port, though...get off the boat. A lot. ;D When people ask us how four of us can live on a 30 foot boat, we like to answer, "we SLEEP on the boat...we LIVE in the whole town, the whole county." When "out," we do this, too. You get the idea.
Quote
My overall plan is to start slow with lots of marina time and short day sails. Once she feels more confident, we will do some harbor hoping, then on to a mooring ball and after that maybe go for a night out.
These early times out might set the stage for your whole style. Getting her used to "marina time" then later making the switch to anchoring out may create more problems than it solves. Others may disagree, and I can see both sides, but I would advocate anchoring out early in the process and letting that be "the norm" with marina stays the exception.
But you know you and your wife and what's best for you. But anchoring out is NOT bad or uncomfortable and can be VERY beautiful, provided a few 'givens.' Watch the weather, pick good sheltered anchorages, maybe avoid being too near too many other boats (the party boats that can ruin an anchorage), proper ground tackle and get REALLY good at anchoring.
That said,
Quote
Intuition tells me to go slow and let her comfort level dictate the pace.
is right on. The first night we spent aboard a boat together was indeed tied to a dock (a courtesy dock at a launch ramp, so not a marina per se), and the second was anchored out but in a cove within a stone's throw of that same ramp. You can ease into it and let her set the pace, but you may be surprised at how quick that pace is.
The caveat? Make the boat her 'zone.' too. Avoid the traps of YOU knowing where everything is, but she does not, YOU knowing all the procedures, but she does not, YOU having YOUR WAY of doing things, and she is "just there."
Thinking about how you worded that...her 'comfort level.' If you spend a few nights in the boat at a dock and make the boat itself her comfort level, her "home," where the boat is tied, moored or anchored becomes less an issue.
Quote
I have even toyed with the idea of renting a couple lasers and just playing around and showing her all the points of sail as a starting point. If any of you all have any good ideas or suggestions about how to do this, please let me know. I would sure welcome some guidance.
Don't dismiss getting her lessons. This is a GREAT way to let her build confidence in the operation of the boat. If she's into that sort of thing, there are places that will do "all women" lessons and such.
Quote
I am glad that you brought up anchoring because I am curious how this works. In Florida, it seems that there is a great deal of liberty with respect to anchoring. In fact, I have found very little about anchoring limitations (aside from obvious things like anchoring in a shipping lane etc.). Are you basically free to anchor most anywhere in Florida waters (aside from the aforementioned shipping lanes and restricted areas)?
HAHA, it's funny that you bring up Florida. We are on the tail end of witnessing some bigtime court issues on anchoring in Florida. Some towns/counties decided that they wanted to limit anchoring, and some have ordinances like 24 hour limit, 72 hour limit, etc. It's been going on for years, but I think it has sort of equilibrated for now.
You are free to anchor anyway in 'navigable waters' outside marked channels (shipping or otherwise :) ). That does not mean you'd want to, though. The anchorages you pick will have certain criteria - shelter from wind and waves (and power boat wakes if possible, though that may be a pipe dream), shallow-but-not-too-shallow water, swinging room, etc. Other boats will be looking for the same thing, so basically, there are certain spots that are "good anchorages."
These will be listed in the cruising guides for a given area....such a guide is generally worth the money. They tell good anchorages, amenities in the towns (which have repair facilities, which have good restaurants, etc) and some list marina fees and the like. Short of having a good cruising guide, you quickly learn how to spot good anchorages on the chart...
man I wish I had saved my receipt.. lol
when you only get $749 /mo, you get pretty good at finding the best deals on food. lol lucky for me I really like the stuff I get. lol. I do go for the night out to eat everyonce in a while. I love to get out of the boat and check out the towns.
I wish I had saved the receipt from my last trip at stocking up. on the 3rd of the month, I'll go again, and I'll get a list and prices for ya if you like. I might walk through the store and get you some prices. I mostly get store brands but double check the price on the shelf.
Are you near any boat yards? sometimes a ride to a local yard and meet some folks and learn a lot in an afternoon. plus you'll make some friends ( maybe too many if you offer free labor!!!)
as for the generator, I have one, but I only use it like a couple of times a year. last time I ran it was on the dock during a black out so the lady a few slips down could finish dinner and charge her cell phone. I can run the engine and charge my batteries, but I just got a free solar panel from a guy who was cleaning out his shop. it's amazing at you can get free. people just get rid of stuff they don't want, that is like a treasure trove.
oh yeah..stock up on stuff like orjel and jock itch stuff, aspirin, mess you never think you'll ever need till one day you need it in the middle of no where. you can get it at a all things a dollar store (AKA the $.99 store)
about the refridgerator..one day this summer, I am getting one of these!
http://www.compactappliance.com/FP430-Compact-EdgeStar-Portable-Refrigerator-Freezer/FP430,default,pd.html?cgid=Appliances-Freezers-Portable_Fridge_Freezer (http://www.compactappliance.com/FP430-Compact-EdgeStar-Portable-Refrigerator-Freezer/FP430,default,pd.html?cgid=Appliances-Freezers-Portable_Fridge_Freezer)
Wow John, you did it much more justice then I think I did. :)
Short version: Much attention is paid to comfort... often adds up to lots of gear.
Focusing on eliminating things that cause misery can be a better investment...
Being cold, wet, and tries make one miserable... and less likely to enjoy cruising
long term.
Or as John said;
Quote from: Captain Smollett on March 29, 2011, 08:21:09 PM
Thanks for the kind words.
Quote from: Namaste on March 29, 2011, 06:07:54 PM
I would like to read more about Craig's 'reduction of misery' principle that you have mentioned. I have looked around in the forum but have not been able to find much. Are there any threads dedicated to discussion on the topic? Are there any other threads in which the topic is discussed at length? The link that you provided to the thread on Faith was fantastic. Thanks, again.
Craig's principle does not really have its own thread, but here's the gist (Craig, if I may):
Most of us on this site diverge from the 'popular' notions of what it takes to cruise. "Leave the comforts at the shore" could be a mantra. We espouse KISS cruising and a LOT of stuff on this site seems devoted to doing "without."
Well, that's only part of the story. It's too easy to get into a mindset that we give up "too much," and thus turn what SHOULD be an enjoyable lifestyle into a self-imposed misery. Craig's idea is the counter to that ... don't spring TOO far into the KISS that you eliminate ALL enjoyment.
In short, we should all find those areas where we might feel that oversimplification of our boats leads to perceived "misery." Personally, I see this as different from mere "comfort," but some may equate the two. Hence, we must all compromise to keep our own boats in the 'sweet spot.'
TOO many amenities and too much "comfort" built into the boat can easily turn into spending all one's time fixing stuff. Too little comfort and we are miserable, so what's the point of even doing it?
For each of us, there is that magic degree in this trade-off that makes it work. The 'conventional wisdom' wants to tell us what is necessary to be comfortable; here on SailFar, I think, we bang against that conventional wisdom but provide allowance for each to make his or her own compromises.
Example: I LOVE the idea of sailing engineless. My wife does not. We have an engine on our boat. I don't have to use it in those circumstances that I think we don't need it.
Finally, there is more than one way to skin a cat. As an example, if you or your wife feels like you cannot cruise without a shower on board, this does NOT mean you HAVE to have running hot and cold water and a full enclosed shower compartment. There are ways to solve the showering problem to get what you (or she) needs and still keep the boat in the KISS category. Even if not, even if you go the way of "systems," it's your boat, your choices.
All we "ask" is that each skipper choose this for him/herself...choose what compromises to KISS vs comfort to make...and not fall into the trap of following the advertisers who say it's a "must have."
Quote
Frank, I am hoping to avoid a fridge and just see how far we can go on ice. I am pretty optimistic that we can do alright with ice but we'll have to see how it goes. I might be making a mistake on this one, we'll just have to wait and see.
You may want to look into beefing up the insulation of your ice box/cooler, then. We, too, use only ice (no fridge and no plan to add one). Block ice lasts MUCH longer than cube or crushed ice, especially if you can get it frozen really cold (ie, not JUST cold enough to freeze).
Three six quart blocks of ice lasts us a couple of weeks. Contrast with cubes, which only goes a day or two.
Quote
The advice about taking the wife for a night out (or even off) of the boat is a very good idea. Having a chance to go out for diner or drinks will be a good way to deal with the cramped (or as I like to call it, 'cozy') conditions on the boat.
Yes, "get off the boat" is an important mantra...whether that's in town or exploring on the dinghy, walking along a beach or shoreline, etc. This is a blessing, though.
I think one of the problems people have with boats that "requires" them to have ALL the bells and whistles (a galley "just like" the kitchen at home, huge "closets" for clothes, large "living rooms" etc)...and thus a 45+ footer for a couple...is because they are trying to do all their living ON the boat. There will be times when you have to stay on the boat, but usually then, you are working...too busy (or too tired) to worry about how big it is and how much space you have.
In port, though...get off the boat. A lot. ;D When people ask us how four of us can live on a 30 foot boat, we like to answer, "we SLEEP on the boat...we LIVE in the whole town, the whole county." When "out," we do this, too. You get the idea.
Quote
My overall plan is to start slow with lots of marina time and short day sails. Once she feels more confident, we will do some harbor hoping, then on to a mooring ball and after that maybe go for a night out.
These early times out might set the stage for your whole style. Getting her used to "marina time" then later making the switch to anchoring out may create more problems than it solves. Others may disagree, and I can see both sides, but I would advocate anchoring out early in the process and letting that be "the norm" with marina stays the exception.
But you know you and your wife and what's best for you. But anchoring out is NOT bad or uncomfortable and can be VERY beautiful, provided a few 'givens.' Watch the weather, pick good sheltered anchorages, maybe avoid being too near too many other boats (the party boats that can ruin an anchorage), proper ground tackle and get REALLY good at anchoring.
That said,
Quote
Intuition tells me to go slow and let her comfort level dictate the pace.
is right on. The first night we spent aboard a boat together was indeed tied to a dock (a courtesy dock at a launch ramp, so not a marina per se), and the second was anchored out but in a cove within a stone's throw of that same ramp. You can ease into it and let her set the pace, but you may be surprised at how quick that pace is.
The caveat? Make the boat her 'zone.' too. Avoid the traps of YOU knowing where everything is, but she does not, YOU knowing all the procedures, but she does not, YOU having YOUR WAY of doing things, and she is "just there."
Thinking about how you worded that...her 'comfort level.' If you spend a few nights in the boat at a dock and make the boat itself her comfort level, her "home," where the boat is tied, moored or anchored becomes less an issue.
Quote
I have even toyed with the idea of renting a couple lasers and just playing around and showing her all the points of sail as a starting point. If any of you all have any good ideas or suggestions about how to do this, please let me know. I would sure welcome some guidance.
Don't dismiss getting her lessons. This is a GREAT way to let her build confidence in the operation of the boat. If she's into that sort of thing, there are places that will do "all women" lessons and such.
Quote
I am glad that you brought up anchoring because I am curious how this works. In Florida, it seems that there is a great deal of liberty with respect to anchoring. In fact, I have found very little about anchoring limitations (aside from obvious things like anchoring in a shipping lane etc.). Are you basically free to anchor most anywhere in Florida waters (aside from the aforementioned shipping lanes and restricted areas)?
HAHA, it's funny that you bring up Florida. We are on the tail end of witnessing some bigtime court issues on anchoring in Florida. Some towns/counties decided that they wanted to limit anchoring, and some have ordinances like 24 hour limit, 72 hour limit, etc. It's been going on for years, but I think it has sort of equilibrated for now.
You are free to anchor anyway in 'navigable waters' outside marked channels (shipping or otherwise :) ). That does not mean you'd want to, though. The anchorages you pick will have certain criteria - shelter from wind and waves (and power boat wakes if possible, though that may be a pipe dream), shallow-but-not-too-shallow water, swinging room, etc. Other boats will be looking for the same thing, so basically, there are certain spots that are "good anchorages."
These will be listed in the cruising guides for a given area....such a guide is generally worth the money. They tell good anchorages, amenities in the towns (which have repair facilities, which have good restaurants, etc) and some list marina fees and the like. Short of having a good cruising guide, you quickly learn how to spot good anchorages on the chart...
Quote from: hearsejr on March 29, 2011, 09:39:56 PM
about the refridgerator..one day this summer, I am getting one of these!
http://www.compactappliance.com/FP430-Compact-EdgeStar-Portable-Refrigerator-Freezer/FP430,default,pd.html?cgid=Appliances-Freezers-Portable_Fridge_Freezer (http://www.compactappliance.com/FP430-Compact-EdgeStar-Portable-Refrigerator-Freezer/FP430,default,pd.html?cgid=Appliances-Freezers-Portable_Fridge_Freezer)
Hmmm, similar design and a bit cheaper than the good ole Engel.
Found this review on Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/43-Portable-Compact-Refrigerator-Freezer/dp/B0012EGZ9S) :
Quote
After buying my own EdgeStar, I tested it with a Kill-a-Watt. It operates at about 60 watts when cooling, and about 6.5 watts when it's not (just the power supply fan, which ALWAYS runs). It draws more power when set on Fast Freeze. Keeping refrigerator-level temps in a 72 degree room (which a thermoelectric can't quite do) one of these boxes *empty* uses an average 1.5AH of power per hour ... The on/off cycle would be different with different content inside and different external temps.
(emphasis added)
1.5 AH / hr x 24 hours = 36 AH. That's quite a bit over my budget and what I am planning to rely on with my 85 W solar panel.
There's just no way around it...on board refrigeration just pushes our energy requirements past where we want it to be (requires more complex charging system than a single smallish panel...). >:(
Quote from: s/v Faith on March 29, 2011, 10:09:43 PM
Wow John, you did it much more justice then I think I did. :)
I just wanted to make sure you knew I was REALLY listening. ;) ;D
yeah I have the same prob with the electrial requirements....I plan on use it it only when I have left overs are when I am at a dock, or expecting guest and want to make ice. I've also found a place to get a fairly OK deal on those big tractor batteries. I'm looking at getting a new solar panels from harbor freight. they keep going on sell when I don't have any money.
last summer I went to Brunswick to help my friend Joe with some stuff.
what we did was run it early in the morning and then again at night. he only had 2 golf cart batteries, and we used one of those Honda generators to charge the batteries. he was going to get a solar panel but he ended up giving the boat to a disabled vet for free and bought a 35' Columbia.
here's what he said:
"on the walmart portable coolers, The specs say "Cools to 40? F below ambient temperature" So if is a hot day in high 80 to 90 not very cool.
I have a Edge star 40 which is the same as the Engel and draws about 4 amps on start then drops to about 1.8 I run it till it comes down to 35 degrees then shut it off and will stay cold for about 12 hours only loosing about 10 degrees. On a normal day will run it in the morning for about two hours and again in the evening the same. Have had it for five years and is great.
Mine also can be used as a freezer going down to -8 degrees if you like. You can push FF ( Fast Freeze) and go from room temp to -8 in about 40 minutes
Joe"
I'm having trouble finding block ice...where do you find it at?
Must agree on the frig. We were recently on a cruise on board a boat with a NICE freezer/frig.. Took four hours a day of engine time, or the generator, to keep it cold. :o :o I refuse to run engines for that long, just for ice cubes, which we don't really need anyway ;) We use a single solar panel which produces 32 watts, which suffices for all our electrical needs. No charge from the engine. There is no 115 system on board. Nothing on board that requires 115 volts.
Didn't have 115 V on the 35 foot trimaran I previously lived aboard either.
We recharge phones, and other batteries from a small inverter, plugged into a cigarette lighter type outlet. Works just fine.
We have a really well insulated ice box on Tehani. Laura and I installed the foam about 4 inches thick ( lid too ya know) and it will hold a 20 pound block for about 10 days. A 20 pound bag of crushed will last TWO!! But when we were in the Bahamas, we just went without ice. Really didn't miss it either.
How you say? Well, for meats, Laura canned many half pint jars of various meats- Hamburger, roast, pork, sausage, chicken. We picked 1/2 pint jars because the first time she did it, she used pints which were too large, and generated left overs. The 1/2 pints are just right, with other stuff like veggies, so we don't have leftovers, No left overs, no need for a cooler.
We both have a rum and ? occasionally, but mine is usually rum and water- no cool stuff. Or we might have a box wine- again- no cooling needed. Beer is also pretty good at room temps if you choose GOOD beers. That let's most major American beers out doesn't it?
Hearesjr- block ice is where you find it unfortunately. We seldom can find it, and it's getting harder and harder to do so.
Tehani is a small 25 footer.. She has only a 7 foot beam which gives us less room than an Ariel, but we seldom feel cramped. Of course, both of us are smaller people too. Laura is 5'2" and I'm 5'8" and 155 pounds so we don't require as much physical space as a pair of 6'+ people would-Clothes are smaller too and require less storage space. Being smaller has certain advantages :D
As for marinas- we rarely go into a marina. We find it cooler, cleaner and less hassle to anchor out. We do go on mooring balls if the locality has them available. We found quite reasonable prices in many locales. Ft Myers Beach, Marathon, Stuart, Fl come to mind. On my previous cruising boats we went the last 11 months with out ever touching a dock. We did use a marina in the Bahamas as a "check in Spot" In Bimini we stayed at Weeches for 3 days, then moved to an anchor for the rest of our stay. Same with Nassau-- we stayed at a a marina because Laura had to fly home- easier to make taxi trips, etc. As soon as she flew out, I moved to anchor. Those 5 nights were the only marinas we were at in almost 3 months there.
I'm on the big computer and it doesn't have some pics I'd like to post, so I'll continue this from another machine a bit later.
Edited to add-
Ok, I've looked through 3 computers now and those pics are apparently gone..I had some shots of Laura's on-board canning setup (she uses a large pressure cooker) and some of the meats she canned. Also of the Thanksgiving dinner she did with ham, baked sweet potatoes, another veggie, hot rolls and a pie, all on one burner.
Apparently when we lost the hard drive on this machine, those pics went away. >:( >:(
If you want inspiration, here is the first of nine videos of a man that took off in an engineless old boat and a little over five hundred dollars in his pocket. He should be an inspiration to all of us. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7Ub8WRfvhg&feature=feedf .
Fair winds and full sails.
Pappy Jack
Charlie
I would like some info on how y`all manage a canning operation on the boat. Seems like a excellent idea to keep meats etc... without fridge/ice. Back in the day I watched as my grandmother canned just about everything and I should have paid more attention.
On a side note: Our society is losing alot of these basic skills and I think as a whole we are regressing....IMHO!
Solar panel 45 watt from harbor freight is right at $300. Check out this site. http://www.solarblvd.com (http://www.solarblvd.com) they have a 25 watt right now for 60.00. So that adds up to a 180 dollar saving. I've got one of their 20 watt and very happy with it.
I watched a lady that did coupons and most of the time her bill was 0 for a ton of food. You have to work at it.
I want to know more about canning hamburger and beef. lol.
I've never canned anything in my life, so any help on that would be much appreciated.
the solar panels at harbor freight seem to go on sale a lot..I get a coupon every couple of weeks that brings the price between $179 to $229. you have to print the coupon out and take it in the store with you. I'll watch the E-sales paper and let you guys know when it comes up again and I'll get the coupon to you some how if anyone wants to get one.
There's a coupon out right now for 45watt solar panel kit from harbor freight for 159.99 good savings it came out in a sale flyer this weekend and is good until 5/29
Wasn't there some discussion in an earlier thread on the Harbor Freight solar panels with commentary that there were subpar quality for marine use and to be relied upon? Maybe these are better than those....I don't know.
Personally, I don't shop at Harbor Freight. I've heard more horror stories than positive ones regarding quality of what is purchased there. That's just me. YMMV.
On the topic of food budgeting:
Raman Noodles and other cheap sources in US super markets are probably not going to be available in overseas ports. This is one of those things that I think one has to be VERY careful about under budgeting based on what is available HERE.
If you go on a 6 month cruise to the islands, can you really carry a 6 month supply of the el cheapo stuff from the States? Sailing solo maybe ... a couple, though, it gets harder. I think it wise to plan to purchase at least SOME food locally, and that's not likely to be the same stuff one is used to seeing in the ultra cheapo isle at Food Lion.
I know a family of eight (parents and six children) that cruise from Canada to the DR every year, and when they leave the US, they are provisioned for three months. That's on a cat in the upper 30's though...38 feet iirc, so it's got quite a bit of storage compared to most sailfar sized monohulls.
Similarly, coupon shopping is great, but not a solution for underway, especially out of this country.
There are ways to save money that just don't translate to a mobile, nomadic existence. Years ago, I lived on a food budget of $20 per week or less...but I did NOT enjoy it (though I'm glad I did it...learned a lot) and if the money is available, I will eat "better" any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
Stretching the food dollar is a laudable goal, but it's just my opinion that trying to go TOO cheap gets one dangerously close to "am I really enjoying this" territory that we talked about above...especially cruising with a spouse (or any other crew).
Namaste, I think a good approach while shore based (before beginning a cruise) is to provision the house (or boat) for a month buying only those items that you have a reasonably good chance of getting anywhere on your cruising destination. Stock up and then live on that stuff only for that month.
Then you can see what YOU will spend...plus or minus...and you will also learn what you can do day in and day out for a month (or more, but if you go a month, that's a good start) and make adjustments to the provisioning plan.
Raman Noodles? We cannot do it...my wife HATES them. She lived off them for a month while she was in college and very poor (and while house sitting for some friends traveling abroad) and now cannot be in the same room with a batch. Can't say as I blame her....I've eaten my share, too. ;D Point is, those things get old FAST. Ugggh.
;D ;D hehehehehe so I know what to get Captain Smollett for christmas...hehehe
I checked on the spaghetti and ravioli today..$.75/can for name brand. these were the cans that were not huge but bigger then the the cans you get for kids. the can of chopped ham..small cans $1, big can was $3, but I can't eat a big can. turkey in the small can were $1.25 and chicken Was $.88 to $1. both white meat in water. the trouble I have is I like that stuff, over a fancy meal like Cornish hens and rotisserie chicken and stuff.
I can't really suggest anything out side the US, other then what I hear from returning folks on the dock. most of'em say you got to shop around and do the same thing as you would here. also I was told hamburger is high $$ in Bahamas, but lamb is cheaper.
there is another place to get solar panels at a good price, but I'll have to find it again.
Quote from: hearsejr on March 30, 2011, 10:10:24 PM
;D ;D hehehehehe so I know what to get Captain Smollett for christmas...hehehe
Haha, grog for the joke. Another grog if you actually send a box addressed to my wife. IF you survive... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
I'll send you some ..forgetting to put the return addy and my name on the box..lol.
well I was planning to leave in 20 days, to get my boat pulled and fixed up and launched and then start my own cruise. but things just took another turn..for the good this time. I got invited to go sailing up the East Coast, including some blue water, and some ICW. plus the guy will get me a ticket home and pay the expenses...I just bring my bare essentials, and pull the look out duties, and help with the sails.
Thank you for the link, Pappy Jack, those were some great videos. The part where he loses two anchors and just makes a new one by welding scrap rebar made my jaw drop. He just won't let anything stop him: very inspiring stuff.
Charlie, the canvas bucket looks like another great idea; simple, effective and it folds up to save storage space. I would like to hear more about your electrical draw. You said that you only have a 35 Watt panel and that it runs all of your systems. I am curious what all you are using, onboard. I've been thinking about buying two 50 Watt panels but I don't plan to run many electrical systems (GPS, VHF, SSB, a stereo and a laptop). Your post got me thinking that maybe I don't need 100 Watts of solar panels. I have no experience with solar so I am just going by what I have been able to find online.
I am also curious about the canning. I don't know anything about it. What is the shelf life of your canned meats? Have you ever had problems with the jars breaking while under way?
Capt. Smollett, thank you for explaining Craig's elimination of misery principle. I fully understood and agreed with every single thing you 'said'. Craig, you have another EMP adherent. ;D
You also mentioned the insulation around the ice box. I will plan to test it out as soon as possible. Thank you (and Charlie) for the tip about using block ice. If I can make the ice last for a week (or even five days or so), I am fairly confident that I would be able to get by without refrigeration at all.
Thanks also for the information on anchoring rights in Florida waters. To be honest, I am very surprised with all of the boat traffic down there that they don't have laws designed to force people into marinas. Plus, I would think that all the wealthy folks who pay serious money for waterfront property down there would be up in arms about having a 1976 O'day 22' anchored out in front of their mansion for three weeks?
I was surprised by your advice about anchoring out with my wife but once I read it and thought about it, I think you have one heck of a good point. Is it possible that my wife will feel misled if we start off spending time in marinas, only to leave them behind when we cruise? If I was her, I certainly might feel that way. It's funny, I thought that I had this one completely figured out and now I am thinking that I actually might have it all wrong; thank you.
I have been keeping close track of my food costs this entire week and at this point I feel like I can accurately estimate that I spend somewhere between $40 to $50 a week on food and drink. However, I am crazy about seafood and I am wondering how much catching my own dinner might reduce food costs. I have not done any sailing in Florida waters so I do not have any firsthand experience on how abundant things like fish, shrimp, crabs and lobsters are down there. Can you catch enough seafood in Florida that you can use it as a reliable means of supplementing your food costs over the long term?
Quote from: Namaste on April 03, 2011, 01:24:23 AM
I am wondering how much catching my own dinner might reduce food costs.
<snip>
Can you catch enough seafood in Florida that you can use it as a reliable means of supplementing your food costs over the long term?
There is an active personal/recreational crabbing industry in Chesapeake Bay. I can't speak to Florida in that regard, but I would explore the costs of licenses and equipment. It isn't terribly high here in Maryland but is not insignificant. There may be limits on the number of traps you maintain and where you put them, as well as possible conflicts with the commercial watermen.
For fin-fish a lot depends on what gear you already have. Costs for tackle (and again licenses) can add up. I've found that there is art as well as science to catching fish. Unfortunately I am not an artist. *grin* If you are moving around a lot trolling gear using hand lines can be very inexpensive. Rods and reels and assorted gear for fishing from piers, docks, and bridges can add up if you don't restrain yourself.
I will say that one of my crew caught a small tuna on the edge of the Gulf Stream during my last delivery (Ft Lauderdale to Barnaget) that made the better part of two meals for four people. I'm not an artist at filleting and cleaning fish either, so the presentation was a bit lacking but everyone liked it anyway. I broiled one dinner and pan-fried the next.
Think about how you'll prepare the fish you catch and make sure you have that gear. A grill is great at anchor but often not a good idea underway depending on access and boat motion.
If you turn out to be an ace fisherman perhaps you can help me figure out what I'm doing wrong. *grin*
Quote-
" the canvas bucket looks like another great idea; simple, effective and it folds up to save storage space. I would like to hear more about your electrical draw. You said that you only have a 35 Watt panel and that it runs all of your systems. I am curious what all you are using, onboard. I've been thinking about buying two 50 Watt panels but I don't plan to run many electrical systems (GPS, VHF, SSB, a stereo and a laptop). Your post got me thinking that maybe I don't need 100 Watts of solar panels. I have no experience with solar so I am just going by what I have been able to find online."
End quote
Actually we use a 32 watt flexible panel, mounted on top of the bimini. We are energy misers by the way. We also have a Sunsystems charge controller hooked into that.
Most of our interior lights are LED, and we are currently trying to convert ALL our lights to LED.
As to our usage. We run a VHF, a Garmin 72 (or 76) almost always. We also use a small inverter to charge our cellphones ( we both have Iphones) and recharge batteries as needed, such as for our SSB reciever (no transmitter)
We also run a Navico TP 300 tiller pilot occasionally, but we also use sheet to tiller.
On the usage- normally onboard we're in bed, and asleep just after dark, and usually up at first light, so we use little electricity for lighting . Now if we are anchored somewhere for a few days, that might change. But we can both read books we have downloaded to the Iphones, so little light is needed there.
We simply don't use much. In a year onboard, we plugged into shore power to recharge once. We did spend almost two VERY cold weeks in Punta Gorda, plugged into shore power, running a heater full blast, 24/7. But that was unusual, since we rarely stay in marinas.
Quote-
"I am also curious about the canning. I don't know anything about it. What is the shelf life of your canned meats? Have you ever had problems with the jars breaking while under way"
End quote
Shelf life is several years at least, as long as the jar is still holding it's seal (lid depressed) And no, we've never had a broken jar. Laura took some of my old socks and stuffs a jar into one, twists, restuffs, twists again, until the sock is used up. We stow the empties in the same sock, and in the same locker, so it's always full- no rattling around.
Someone asked earlier about procedures for canning. Laura uses a large pressure cooker, and cans at 15 pounds pressure. Meats must be under pressure for about 75 minutes, and yes, she does it aboard.
If you will google "canning meats" you'll find lots of info.
Also look here at this post I made on Sailfar some time ago (wow- a year ago!!) about this- it has pics showing her jars-
http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php/topic,2826.0.html
Quote from: Namaste on April 03, 2011, 01:24:23 AM
Thanks also for the information on anchoring rights in Florida waters. To be honest, I am very surprised with all of the boat traffic down there that they don't have laws designed to force people into marinas. Plus, I would think that all the wealthy folks who pay serious money for waterfront property down there would be up in arms about having a 1976 O'day 22' anchored out in front of their mansion for three weeks?
That's what started the whole brouhaha, along with a bunch of abandoned boats. The legal fight continues.
See Claiborne Young's Site (http://cruisersnet.net/?s=florida+anchoring&cat=-6&x=0&y=0) for some updates.
I cannot find the link right now, but just a day or two ago, I was reading an 'article' online that said that SOME people might be getting less hassle from LE types at anchor if they have a copy of the law aboard to show them. Of course, that's not REQUIRED.
In any case, it's still a mess down there.
Quote
I was surprised by your advice about anchoring out with my wife but once I read it and thought about it, I think you have one heck of a good point. Is it possible that my wife will feel misled if we start off spending time in marinas, only to leave them behind when we cruise? If I was her, I certainly might feel that way. It's funny, I thought that I had this one completely figured out and now I am thinking that I actually might have it all wrong; thank you.
I don't think you can have it all "wrong." You know yourself and your wife and what is best for you.
My only point was that if the boat is "hers" as well as yours, anchoring may be less 'scary' or 'uncomfortable.' If she has indicated that she is apprehensive about anchoring out, try to find out why. It MAY have nothing to do with being anchored or tied to a dock...but the dock might be a crutch that softens the issue.
I keep saying "may" and "might" because I don't KNOW...she may HATE anchoring out. I do know that my wife did not want to anchor out her very first time spending the night on the boat, but after that "trial period," she was game.
She was 5 months pregnant the first time we anchored out, and it got into the 20's (with no heat on board). Sweet memories... ;D ;D
She does not bat an eye about anchoring out now.
Some things are FAR easier tied to a dock in a marina: provisioning, watering, significant repairs or modifications, etc. I kept my boat at anchor for 18 months (did not live aboard, but was there a lot); dinghying ashore for EVERYTHING is extra work, but it can be done.
Completing a rough-ish (as in tiring) passage and arriving at the anchorage exhausted can be tough, too. You are already very tired and you have to properly and safely anchor the boat. Then, say you need to go ashore for something....get the dink ready, perhaps rowing. I can see why SOME folks balk against anchoring out...staying in a marina is EASIER.
But as we say on this site, the easy way in the short term is often not the BEST way in the long term (financially, spiritually, etc). Anchoring out will in general be cooler, it's definitely cheaper, can be more private, and well, the folks you meet in an anchorage are different from the ones you meet in marinas. The 'marina crowd' contains a higher percentage of folks that don't really GO anywhere at all on their boats, whereas the anchor-out crowd will be more like what you hear about as 'cruisers.'
So, even if you begin your cruising by staying at marinas, you never really have the
fullest flavor of cruising until you anchor out, in terms of the locations and the people you meet.
And hey, people just LOOK AT and TREAT you differently when you row ashore in a dinghy from an anchored boat. ;D ;D
All that said, again, it's about what is right for you and your wife. All the pluses *I* mention are pluses for US...and you might find things completely different.
A couple of posts in this thread (http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php/topic,1887.msg18869.html#msg18869) might be useful here, too.
Laura and I cruised the entire Florida coast in 2009- 2010, from Pensacola around to Fernandina, including Marathon. We had absolutely zero hassles from ANYONE concerning our anchoring. We did have ( and still carry) a copy of the law on board, but never needed it. We even anchored for two nights off Marco Island, which is where the big "can't anchor here" brouhaha started. Not a flicker of interest from any law enforcement type.
The Florida Legislature, in a new law passed in 2008 or 09, classified boats as "live-aboards" or "In transits". Cities can and still will most likely, control the "live-aboards".. And I can understand that. I've seen some pretty ratty looking "live-aboards". But the other category is where we ( and all the rest of you) would fall- In transit. They aren't allowed to restrict your anchoring EXCEPT where they have set up a mooring field. Then you cannot just anchor within that field. You can still anchor someplace OUTSIDE the field, if there is room. And actually, we found the city run ( or county run) moorings to be convenient, practical and inexpensive (for the most part). Vero Beach was a bit more expensive than most, but not exorbitant. Usual fees were in the $10-$12 per day range and usually came with dinghy dockage and one pumpout a week. Most had cheaper weekly and or monthly rates.
Stuart had a day room, free showers, and loaner bikes for mooring customers. Hard to beat that.
As for fishing- a non resident Florida license costs $47 per person per year. If you are to be in Florida for a while, that's pretty cheap. A Texas resident saltwater license is $33 per year. But I sure wouldn't count on feeding myself with seafood caught by me.. I'm a serious, long time fisherman here at home, having two different boats to fish from (separate from the sailboats) and probably 40 or more rods and reels ( I know, I know, but some of them are 45 years old, or more ;D )
Problem is, you are new in an area and don't know where or how the fish there get caught. Or even what to try for. Generic methods certainly work, and we had the occasional fish dinner, but counting on them would not have worked.
Even in the Bahamas, using both pole spear while snorkeling, and fishing rods, we enjoyed some seafood. Caught and ate lots of conch. But the main meals STILL were from ships stores.
Fish for fun, eat what you catch, but plan to feed yourself via the grocery store.
Quote from: Auspicious on April 03, 2011, 08:55:30 AM
as well as possible conflicts with the commercial watermen.
This is a very good point.
Perhaps one should not overlook supporting the local watermen.
We have a 'local' catch market with seafood prices one third that in the grocery store. For example, shrimp is about $5 / lb vs $12-15 / lb at Food Lion.
You can get 'em even cheaper buying right off the boat.
And excellent point John. We bought shrimp right off the boats while docked in Ocean Springs Miss, for $2 pound. And Laura bought a fresh snapper from the fishermen next to the marina in Isla Mujeres, for about 30-40 pesos . Less than $4.00.
I recently read this article...
"Important -- Florida Anchoring Rights Struggle Enters Next Phase"
Posted by Claiborne | Posted on 03-01-2011
http://cruisersnet.net/51696/
In which she writes about her concern about proposed no-anchor buffer zones around the municipal mooring fields, that may be large enough to prevent cruisers in transit from anchoring in these harbors outside the fields, as they have been.
This seems like a potentially serious threat to the kind of cruising and anchoring many currently do. It seems to me that, as in many areas, when traditional rights are encroached upon, then it is easy to get out onto a slippery slope...
I haven't read up thoroughly on this issue, but will post this anyway.
-Jim
I wanted to chime in regarding food purchases... if you eat as "the locals" do, chances are (unless you're anchored at the local Yacht Club) you'll get a chance to explore some interesting tastes as well as eat fairly cheaply. The year my family and I lived in Hawai'i, we ate "local" in an otherwise high-priced economy and did quite well. e.g. milk and dairy we avoided, as someone pointed out that there are only so many cows on an island so milk becomes scarce.
And ditto on supporting the local watermen... sometimes a catch purchased right off the dock can be downright cheap!
I posted the information on the no-anchoring buffer zone and the link, since Charlie, you had mentioned that you and Laura had been able to anchor outside of the municipal mooring fields on his cruise. Didn't know whether you were aware of the buffer-zone issue. It was news to me. I don't know if a distance for the zones has been set, but some seem to think that it could be surprisingly large.
I enjoyed reading James and Rachel's S/V Further blog about having anchored outside of the mooring field at Boot Key Harbor in Marathon, and found a creative way around the ($10/day?) dinghy dock fee. We know that it's not possible to cruise on $300 per month and spend $300 for a mooring.
Although these issues may indeed be discussed in other forums, I'm especially interested in the perspective of SailFar cruisers--which includes many minimalist and frugal cruisers who may be more adversely affected by anchoring restrictions than the more big-budget cruisers found on the other forums.
I'm quite a long distance away, but had eyed the Florida Keys in general and Boot Key Harbor in particular as a possible destination for winter trailer sailing/cruising. I used to check the live webcam at the harbor to help stoke the dream. My concern is that if these kinds of restrictions continue to expand, it is going to be difficult to have the kind of cruising experience that CJ/Laura and James/Rachel have had, and that would be sad. So for me at least it is a practical issue, and a philosophical one.
Actually the dinghy dock fee in Boot Key is a tad over 6.50 per day if you pay weekly ($45 week). That gets you a key to the showers, access to the washers/dryers, access to the day room (and free wifi) and one pump out per week, so it's really pretty reasonable. Marathon (and Boot Key Harbor) is really a quite cruiser friendly place. There's much room outside the mooring fields for anchoring. They only have 260 moorings, and when we were there there were about 450 boats in boot Key, plus those in the creek and anchored on the outside. BIG boats anchor outside by the way.
I wouldn't be concerned about spending time in Boot Key.
I have heard others say the same, that it is pretty reasonable, as moorings go, and cruiser friendly, as you say. For some of the seriously minimalist cruisers, though, even that is out of reach. I was also thinking that it would be a nice option to anchor outside the mooring field if money got tight or if the moorings are all taken for some period of time.
Of course, Further draws only 2'-6"? and can sit on the bottom if needed, so has an advantage in finding a spot outside a mooring area.
My concern after reading the article by Clairborne, was that such a buffer-zone around the mooring field would be added at Boot Key Harbor (and the other municipal mooring areas) under the "next phase", and that anchoring nearby as you have been able to previously do would no longer be allowed.
I read that article and I feel for both sides.
I can see why a person who threw down a couple of mil on a nice waterfront mansion would be angry to have some dude in a late model O'day 22 anchored out behind his house for 5 months.
I can also see why cruisers are upset since these communities are clearly trying to abuse these 'exclusion zones' to get around the ruling that they lost on anchor rights.
It seems to me that there has to be a reasonable compromise here, somewhere. I just feel that these communities are punishing all cruisers because of a few jerks.
I also don't like the method they are using. They say that they need these 'exclusion zones' as a means of ensuring that people use moorings. However, if this is the case then it seems to me that cities could also outlaw all free parking spaces within 20 miles of every parking meter. No community would except that.
When I get down to the boat in a few weeks, I will try to make it to one of these meetings and provide a first-hand report on the proceedings.
Quote from: Namaste on April 08, 2011, 11:39:23 PM
When I get down to the boat in a few weeks, I will try to make it to one of these meetings and provide a first-hand report on the proceedings.
That'd be cool. Our SailFar Reporter on the scene. ;D
One way to combat this sort of thing is to vote with the dollars....*IF* the community in question has any kind of tourism basis to the local economy at all. I might not break their bank, but at least I can put my $$ into communities that WANT me there. That's a very personal approach, though, I guess.
One reason I find a lot of this aggravating is that a few bad apples spoil the bunch. Most cruisers are decent people; most liveaboard in the marina are decent people. One or two 'bad apples' tarnishes the reputation of all us.
I wish these communities would recognize that, and go after particular behaviors that they don't like rather than painting all boaters with the same brush. I don't think the McMansion owner cares about you being anchored out in your O'Day for ANY period of time...provided your boat is clean and generally well kept and you conduct yourself as a decent, good neighbor should.
There may be exceptions...there may be home owners that DO give a rat about 'the view being THEIRS,' but I think most of them probably just want folks in their AO to be well-behaved. They paid a certain amount of money to live in a neighborhood that they knew and trusted, and yet here are these passerby that do all sorts of 'interesting' things. We are already "outcasts" in many people's minds, and it does not help that some folks living aboard play into the worst stereotypes.
We cannot operate our boats (even dinks) intoxicated, play loud music from out speakers, run generators all hours of the night, stand naked on the deck at 7 am every morning just cuz we CAN, speak with foul, uncouth language when ashore and generally act like the water is OURS exclusively and expect the people who LIVE THERE to accept it. It's the same anywhere - Florida or a foreign country - it is our responsibility to treat the 'locals' with respect since we are visiting their HOME.
Given what I have seen in "boater behavior" in the past, say 4 years or so, I think there's a reason the land owners are fighting back. There are just enough boaters behaving poorly. As I said, I wish they'd single THEM out, and leave the 99% of the rest alone, free to anchor in peace (without even a supposition of "you are WRONG" til proven otherwise) and be on their way.
So yes, the boaters have the responsibility to respect that they are essentially in the "home" of the landowner, but so too the landowner should respect that that boater is his guest. If one guest is behaving badly, throw HIM out...not the whole party. At least that's the way I see it.
The difference perhaps between this-
(http://data.sailboatowners.com/photos/1302355584.jpg)
and this?
(http://data.sailboatowners.com/photos/1302355671.jpg)
One of the reasons I really can't blame the cities for wanting to do SOMETHING!!
holy pacheeto!
May I request a renaming ceremony for that boat?
From "cumulus" to something more appropriate like...
"accumulate"
or
"aggregate"
or maybe
"where's the trailer park?"
Yes, I can just hear the wife... looking down from her condo saying to her husband...
"Look at that, they think they can just stay here... look at that mess of all that fabric up on the front like that... they sure are messy".....
;D
Looks like Charlie found a picture of my boat. ;D
In all seriousness though, what is going on with the rigging on that vessel? Two forestays? Three backstays? Is the jib sheet being led back between the shrouds? That web of wire (halyards?) above the main looks rather interesting; What's going on there (gaff rigged?)?
Cutter rigged, so two stays for sails, but maybe two stays up front. Looks like a jib in a bag on the fore deck, below the roller furled jib. Maybe a small jib.
Mass of wires above the main looks to be lazy jacks.
Topping lift to boom end, and possibly double back stays.
Nothing really out of the ordinary about the rig- Just the rest of the poop that stands out. And yes, I've seen boats looking much like this, several times. And occasionally worse.
Yes it is a shame to see boats like this. We see homes on dry land that look the same all the time. Some people are just junk keepers. They count their wealth that way. The more junk the wealthier they feel.
Quote from: Grime on April 12, 2011, 08:29:50 AM
Yes it is a shame to see boats like this. We see homes on dry land that look the same all the time. Some people are just junk keepers. They count their wealth that way. The more junk the wealthier they feel.
It gets out of hand at some point.
Last year, I threw away some very old, very split teak that had holes drilled in every 8 inches. It was useless for ANYTHING practical.
Our resident "hoarder" rescued these scraps from the dumpster and put them on his pile on the dock.
Admittedly, this individual may have some very real, diagnosable disorder(s). My only point is that there is a difference between people who collect junk of SOME value to SOMEONE, versus the pure junk collector. For some people, even the latter seems to be an inner drive.
I assumed that quite a bit of the clutter on "Cumulus" was because they had a very wet sail and had to dry out every piece of cloth and bedding onboard. Perhaps I was being too generous. ;)
--Joe
I wonder if the Commodore would recognize his beloved Florida ?
Joe, that was my first thought as well--that they were doing a general drying out of everything. From the looks of those mountains, probably not near Marathon, FLorida--it could be Tahiti?
My experience is that these are the eclectic characters that are fun to row over to and meet!
Quote from: Jim_ME on April 13, 2011, 12:13:14 AM
Joe, that was my first thought as well--that they were doing a general drying out of everything. From the looks of those mountains, probably not near Marathon, FLorida--it could be Tahiti?
My experience is that these are the eclectic characters that are fun to row over to and meet!
I think that from the homeowner's perspective, this is a matter of degree.
Someone airing out their wet possessions due to a wet passage looks like that for a day or two...not indefinitely. That may well be what is going on for that particular boat...but what of the ones that look like that ALL the time?
Again, I am reminded of boaters that show NO regard for those around them. It's a weird dichotomy - we tend to have a "don't tread on me" attitude, a piratical rebelliousness, yet some fail to show simple regard for others.
Being a "free spirit" living a nomadic lifestyle and exploring the world by boat does not give us license to treat others with disrespect. The people that live along the shore have just as much "right" to enjoy the water as we do (and we them, of course).
No doubt we are seeing a kneejerk response by the towns, but the bottom line, the undeniable fact, is that they are responding to SOMETHING. It may not be all boaters, it may not be most boaters, but it *IS* some boaters, and they don't like it. And the problem of abandoned boats is very real as well. I don't have any pictures right now, but next time I'm in Beaufort (NC), I'll get a few of the Town Creek anchorage...and those are NOT boats airing out or simply passing through. Our town "anchorage" is very small by comparison to most, and even here we have some boats that sure do "ugly up" the place.
And...they are visible to EVERYONE passing by town (via car). From the townfolk point of view, it's no wonder they want SOME control over who's there.
In the ideal world, the towns in Florida work with boaters in trying to resolve the issue rather than drawing lines in the sand and forcing governmental and legal resolutions. But I do see their side (not that I agree with it all)...the waterfront is a resource they have to sell - either via homeownership (see the nice view) or waterfront restaurants, etc... my point to them would be that the sooner they realize that that same waterfront is a resource from the water side as well, the better a workable solution for everyone can be found.
Can you afford to cruise?? I posted this Hayden quote here back in december of 05. Your answer lays within......
......."To be truly challenging, a voyage, like a life, must rest on a firm foundation of financial unrest. Otherwise you are doomed to a routine traverse, the kind known to yachtsmen, who play with their boats at sea - "cruising," it is called. Voyaging belongs to seamen, and to the wanderers of the world who cannot, or will not, fit in. If you are contemplating a voyage and you have the means, abandon the venture until your fortunes change. Only then will you know what the sea is all about.
"I've always wanted to sail to the South Seas, but I can't afford it." What these men can't afford is not to go. They are enmeshed in the cancerous discipline of "security." And in the worship of security we fling our lives beneath the wheels of routine - and before we know it our lives are gone.
What does a man need - really need? A few pounds of food each day, heat and shelter, six feet to lie down in - and some form of working activity that will yield a sense of accomplishment. That's all - in the material sense. And we know it. But we are brainwashed by our economic system until we end up in a tomb beneath a pyramid of time payments, mortgages, preposterous gadgetry, playthings that divert our attention from the sheer idiocy of the charade.
The years thunder by. The dreams of youth grow dim where they lie caked in dust on the shelves of patience. Before we know it the tomb is sealed.
Where, then, lies the answer? In choice. Which shall it be: bankruptcy of purse or bankruptcy of life? "
Quote from: Frank on April 13, 2011, 01:33:34 PM
Can you afford to cruise?? I posted this Hayden quote here back in december of 05. Your answer lays within......
......."To be truly challenging, a voyage, like a life, must rest on a firm foundation of financial unrest. Otherwise you are doomed to a routine traverse, the kind known to yachtsmen, who play with their boats at sea - "cruising," it is called. Voyaging belongs to seamen, and to the wanderers of the world who cannot, or will not, fit in. If you are contemplating a voyage and you have the means, abandon the venture until your fortunes change. Only then will you know what the sea is all about.
"I've always wanted to sail to the South Seas, but I can't afford it." What these men can't afford is not to go. They are enmeshed in the cancerous discipline of "security." And in the worship of security we fling our lives beneath the wheels of routine - and before we know it our lives are gone.
What does a man need - really need? A few pounds of food each day, heat and shelter, six feet to lie down in - and some form of working activity that will yield a sense of accomplishment. That's all - in the material sense. And we know it. But we are brainwashed by our economic system until we end up in a tomb beneath a pyramid of time payments, mortgages, preposterous gadgetry, playthings that divert our attention from the sheer idiocy of the charade.
The years thunder by. The dreams of youth grow dim where they lie caked in dust on the shelves of patience. Before we know it the tomb is sealed.
Where, then, lies the answer? In choice. Which shall it be: bankruptcy of purse or bankruptcy of life? "
...and the occasional grog. ;D
Here is one on me Frank.
Grog for that Frank! Says it all! As I read through that post I came to the conclusion that I desire to be a "voyager" rather than a "cruiser". A little insecurity helps remind you that you are alive!
I was having a conversation with some coworkers the other day and trying to explain my motivations for sailing and giving up a career and just taking off. The only way I could explain the decision was to tell them that I`m at my best when I`m a little "uncomfortable" about my life. The Hayden qoute says it with a little more poetic flare.
Talking to friends....another ole quote comes to mind:
"if you have to explain...they won't understand" ;)
Quote from: Frank on April 13, 2011, 03:52:56 PM
Talking to friends....another ole quote comes to mind:
"if you have to explain...they won't understand" ;)
Exactly!
My thought about ugly boats is the quote "It's difficult to legislate (and regulate) good taste".
Thanks, Frank. I needed that. Grog!!!
I think the thing (re: ugly boats) that I find most disturbing about some boats is the obvious neglect or intentional misuse.
I realize that some folks argue that Grampians and Westerlys are "ugly", but I'm less put off by graceless or clunky lines if the vessel is seaworthy or functional in some way.
But I can't think of a sailboat I've ever seen that was less graceful than the average motorboat, bass boat, etc.
I've even admired lobster boats that were sporting little mizzen masts with mizzensails! Puts a different spin on the concept of "motorsailing"!
I've been doing a lot of soul-searching myself lately, as I work towards getting SV Never Enough ready for spring commissioning. I am going to focus on safety & seaworthiness first & foremost, with only a hint of creature comfort concens. I'm also cancelling plans for a roller furling jib and staying with the hank-on sails for now.
With family indicating they'd not like me to go cruising long-term, I begin to wonder if I'm going to end up land-bound, land-locked, day-dreaming forever. But one bright spot in all this is my daughter (whose personality & temperament is a lot like mine) loves the boat, even expressed an interest in learning to sail. And thinks it's great that I want to teach my grandson to sail.
To bring this train of thought into the station, am I the only one here who is put off at the sight of a 45' long mega-sailboat? I'm surely not, given the focus of the forums here, but past the 35' makr, boats look funny to me. I think a nice size range is the 25' to 35' LOA. Beyond that it just looks all wrong to me.
After thinking about this a bit, I guess that the issue that I feel is that the right to navigate and to anchor is an essential freedom of sailing and cruising.
One parallel that comes to mind for me is the freedom of expression and speech. It's easy to support another's when they say things that we agree with, it's when they they say things that we disagree with, or that are offensive, where it may not be so easy.
It just concerns me that the solution may be becoming putting municipal (government run) mooring fields in place that fill existing harbors, and then enacting a no-anchor buffer zone around it, and limiting access to shore and having these dinghy docks that charge quite a bit for those frugal cruisers out there. Then having the livelihood of those that interpret the definition of the buffer zone directly affected by that interpretation, and possibly others that enforce it also being paid out of the municipal revenues fed by those policies.
It seems to me that encroachment of rights usually starts with good intentions on the part of the authorities, and wanting to get "some control".
I sometimes read or see something in the news and think...Wow, that's offensive, but then usually think, well if that's the price we pay to protect everyone's freedoms, than it's well worth it.
I feel that if a boat is either anchored or moored next to me, and it is ugly and neglected, I may feel somewhat judgmental--but that is my opinion and there may be some social or sailing culture disapproval, and it seems to me that this is or should be enough in many situations. It is a very different thing to make those things illegal and then setup far-reaching mechanisms and institutions to interpret, enforce, and impose these judgments on all cruisers. That does seem unfortunate to me.
Much of my sailing has been done in a rural part of Downeast Maine where there is a strong live and let live and to each his own culture, which may color my thinking on this... In my winter escape scenario I've often looked at Boot Key Harbor as a possible destination, but now the mooring field and the coming no-anchor buffer zone of as-yet-to-be-determined distance, has made it somewhat uncertain, and I'm starting to feel that I've lost something by these new changes--even before I got down there...that we all have.
Yes, I think that we can all agree that abandoning boats is clearly an irresponsible act that creates a very real cost to the community and its taxpayers.
My understanding is that in Boot Key Harbor, this was a problem for many years, and the municipality had no effective response--and that people may have even brought boats there intending to abandon them.
It does seem reasonable that the municipality should be able to pursue any such owners and get reimbursed for the cost of removing and disposing of abandoned vessels. I believe that once boat owners knew this was a certain consequence, that the boat abandonment may have stopped, even without mooring fields and no-anchor buffer zones.
Quote from: Jim_ME on April 15, 2011, 12:14:30 AM
It does seem reasonable
I think you and I (and others) have used "reasonable" in discussing how this should have been handled...
"Reasonable" did not enter into it. The whole thing was an emotional response to an emotional problem, for both sides.
South Florida may, in places like Boot Key Harbor, be moving from a near Somalia situation with a vacuum of any authority, toward--with these large mooring fields and proposed no-anchor zones--a North Korea model... ;)
Perhaps I'm backing up a few pages in this thread, but I have a point I'd like to put forth:
You can always come back.
Don't look at cruising as a life changing event just because it can be, think of it as a new experience that you can control as you wish, one day at a time. Perhaps you will be gone 20 years, but maybe you'll come back after two weeks and then head out again in 6 months.
My vote is to just do it, and if you want to come back, then do that! But you'll never know until you try.... ;)
Quote from: Lost Lake on April 15, 2011, 03:51:28 PM
Perhaps I'm backing up a few pages in this thread, but I have a point I'd like to put forth:
You can always come back.
Don't look at cruising as a life changing event just because it can be, think of it as a new experience that you can control as you wish, one day at a time. Perhaps you will be gone 20 years, but maybe you'll come back after two weeks and then head out again in 6 months.
My vote is to just do it, and if you want to come back, then do that! But you'll never know until you try.... ;)
Good point. Grog to you, sir!
On the topic of affordable cruising... In addition to the question of how much one can or should budget per month to cruise, and ideas for how to make that go as far as possible or is comfortable, I've been thinking about how to simplify the other non-cruising areas of my life and all demands that other things make.
Things that I obtained (along with their demands) at a time when my life and priorities were very different.
For me, one big item is the cost to maintain an older house. I appreciated its "character" and size, but as my priorities have changed, and I have gotten older and the house Do-It-Yourself projects and tasks have gotten less fun. The conflict between it and the boat(s) becomes clearer every year. At some point one realizes that there is a real cost to pay...in time, financial cost, effort, and emotions--in trying to do too much.
Thoreau urges us... "Simplify, simplify." It seems to be an ongoing effort, when the autopilot of the culture is to constantly accumulate more things and more complexity in life.
I think that part of answering the question of how to afford to cruise is to free up time, resources, and energy to put into a cruising life. It always surprises me how little I really need to be happy when I'm out sailing or camping, and how easy it is to forget how good it feels to be so unburdened when I get back "home".
Quote from: Jim_ME on April 15, 2011, 02:15:48 PM
South Florida may, in places like Boot Key Harbor, be moving from a near Somalia situation with a vacuum of any authority, toward--with these large mooring fields and proposed no-anchor zones--a North Korea model... ;)
??? What ARE you talking about??
We've seen zero problems, even in the areas where the "no anchoring" stuff originated. The new laws from the Florida legislature have been pretty plain, and seem to have been taken to heart.
Boot Key has 260 mooring balls,, and during winter months, has a 2-5 week waiting period for them. They have NO trouble filling the mooring field, and there is room, and I might add, un-regulated room for maybe another 200-250 boats.
In fact, every where we went in Florida that had mooring fields, had them pretty full, during winter and spring anyway.
The town of Marathon is EXTREMELY cruising boat friendly- they understand how much money is spent in grocery stores, etc by those boats. They have events aimed just at the cruising community.
I sure wouldn't worry about things getting "north Korea'ish" any time within the near future.
And $45 a week for the dinghy docking is dirt cheap considering what privileges go along with it. We certainly found it reasonable and we cruise on my Social Security check. Sorry, but you can't get much thinner than that, and still be a respectable cruiser, instead of a moocher..
And a municipal mooring is really a nice way to go by the way. Usually has very nice amenities to go along with it.
Charlie, That was meant to be (mostly) an attempt at humorous overstatement. ;)
I do accept that you have had good experiences there, and that it is relatively affordable as cruising down there goes.
My understanding from the article that I had posted a link to earlier was that the no-anchor buffer zone had not yet been put in place, and that after it is those other anchoring areas that you are used to may not be available, to some extent. I'll have to read up further and see what the status of this is.
I was interested to read about James & Rachel's budget of cruising for $300 per month on Further, which was probably quite a bit thinner, but no doubt exceptionally creative.
I lived on my Cal29 in Bootkey from '99-'01 and the mooring field was not in place at that time. The city had placed test mooring balls out the last few months before I sold my boatand at the time there was alot of derelect vessels and some were half sunken. It was a real eye sore and reflected poorly on the 99% of the responsible boat owners in the harbor.
There was a section still available to anchor the last time I checked the bootkey harbor website. Is anchoring still an option?
I have gone back to reread the article...
Important - Florida Anchoring Rights Struggle Enters Next Phase
Posted by Claiborne | Posted on 03-01-2011
http://cruisersnet.net/51696/
The writer seemed to be very concerned about the anchoring rights and buffer zones. One quote struck me...
"...And, indeed, I worried about this same thing. During a particular FWC meeting, one Florida municipality made what I thought was an outlandish statement that for a mooring field to be successful along their waterfront, waters as far as twenty miles away would need to be included in a no-anchor buffer zone."
The impression that I got was that these were fairly recent developments?
Charlie, I hope that you are right and that things will stay as they had been when you were last there.
Quote from: Jim_ME on April 15, 2011, 06:11:11 PM
....
The impression that I got was that these were fairly recent developments?
Charlie, I hope that you are right and that things will stay as they had been when you were last there.
I was just there in January, and had a pleasant experience. The derelict boats are still there trying to mess things up for the rest of us... one 'raft' was anchored near the marina with two non-functional sailboats tied bow to stern and gutted power boat filled with garbage. ::)
I met the marina manager, he was adjusting painters on dinghies so others could come in.*
He was friendly and upbeat... in the conversation he complained about "people who try to make up rules for everything". I only realized he was the manager later when I saw his picture on the web site.
Quote from: Jim_ME on April 15, 2011, 06:11:11 PM
ut the anchoring rights and buffer zones. One quote struck me...
"...And, indeed, I worried about this same thing. During a particular FWC meeting, one Florida municipality made what I thought was an outlandish statement that for a mooring field to be successful along their waterfront, waters as far as twenty miles away would need to be included in a no-anchor buffer zone."
One thing to bear in mind when something like this gets stated. You've (they've?) now edged over into federal, navigable waters, and the rules pertaining. Municipalities do end at the town limits, but federal waters go on and on;)
And every mooring field we experienced was fairly full, and had boats at anchor around it. So the cities seemingly had no problem renting moorings.
I hope I'm right too. We'll be leaving here in two weeks to resume cruising- this time to spend the summer and early fall maybe, on the Chesapeake Bay.
I'm only hoping pump-out facilities will be as numerous and as inexpensive as Florida's were.
Jim_ME, can I point out that despite Thoreau's admonition that we should all simplify... that in fact during most of his time at Walden, he strolled on over to Concord to have dinner at someone else's expense, and even retreated to Concord during the worst of weather? I spent an entire winter in careful study of a research copy of Walden which included a lot of detailed notes about reality vs. some of Thoreau's claims. On the other hand, I'll agree with HDT that a swim in Walden on a hot summer day is a wonderful thing indeed.
I hope I didn't puncture your bubble. I agree that most of us would prefer to simplify our lives and live pretty independantly whilst bobbing about. Unfortunately, Thoreau's independance was more of literary device than literal.
On the topic of affording the cruise and finances, there is also this thread (http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php/topic,841.0.html) with some good points made.
Tom, I was hoping to use Thoreau as a shining example of extreme frugality and independence, should anyone actually accuse me of mooching and hurting my feelings (say in South Florida)--but now if he is seen as one himself, I don't know what I will do... Just stay up here in Maine with the rest of us yahoo tightwads, I suppose... ;)
Quote from: Jim_ME on May 06, 2011, 01:31:23 AM
Tom, I was hoping to use Thoreau as a shining example of extreme frugality and independence, should anyone actually accuse me of mooching and hurting my feelings (say in South Florida)--but now if he is seen as one himself, I don't know what I will do... Just stay up here in Maine with the rest of us yahoo tightwads, I suppose... ;)
As the pirates (well, they're movie pirates) say of rules "they're more like guidelines, actually..."
I'd say go with the spirit of the thing, and if you have to mooch a little, so be it.
Of the Mainers I've met, I never thought "tightwad" was a good description for anyone. Thrifty, frugal, realistic perhaps, but friendly and generous (almost to a fault) also.
The pioneer spirit on which this country was founded was an odd combination of thrifty independance/self-sufficiency and "help thy neighbor" interdependance. I'm sure that must allow for a little mooching along the way, too.
;D
Tom, You do hear a lot about the "Two Maines", so maybe you met the other one? We do (did) have a popular publication called The Tightwad Gazette...and that was even before this recession... ;)
At this point I'm doubtful that I'd be able to afford to get down there [to the South] in the foreseeable future to do anything, including mooching... :(
The worst thing that I could find about Thoreau in his Wikipedia entry is...
"Once back in Concord, Thoreau went through a restless period. In April 1844 he and his friend Edward Hoar accidentally set a fire that consumed 300 acres of Walden Woods."
It's also true that being of Scottish ancestry, I wouldn't see thrift as a fault. So maybe I've met both types?
Something over a decade ago, I got ahold of a galley proof with author's notations of a new edition of Walden in which the editor had run a fact check against Thoreau's claims... showing that while he claimed to live at the cabin at Walden, he was actually being fed, warmed and looked after at his friend's home in Concord - it's only a mile or so along the railroad cut to the "Old Manse".
I don't think that says ill of HD Thoreau... just that he was enjoying warm hospitality on cold nights when the cabin would have been cold, dark and lonely.
Ayuh, Mainahs are wicked good! Actually, My Dad's mother's side of the family (Pierce) was originally from the Concord, NH area, so they may have known (or known of) Thoreau.
Here's an interesting page about Thoreau entitled "Economy" which features his cabin...and the small-simple-house philosophy...
http://home2.btconnect.com/tipiglen/economy.html#cabin
And which includes this poem...which could easily have been written about the KISS sailing philosophy as well...
Men say they know many things;
But lo! they have taken wings-
The arts and sciences,
And a thousand appliances;
The wind that blows
Is all that anybody knows.
Here's a photo of the interior of the cabin...(which looks a bit like a boat cabin)
http://www.talkingtree.com/gallery/USA/Massachusetts/Concord/autumn2004/index10.cfm
Jim, nice pics... brings back memories... skinny dipping in Walden, walks along the pond, and lots of photos taken in and around Concord (since I am supposed to be a photographer among other skills).
If for example one sails far by keeping it simple and keeping it small, but doesn't actually sail all that far, and maybe not that simple when all is tallied, is it not still a fine thing that the goal was pursued, even if it didn't turn out quite as planned? I hope that is so... for try as we might, plan as we will, sometimes things have to be adjusted to meet conditions.
That's one of the reasons I like reading Thoreau's work. An ideal is aspired to, even if reality works out a little differently.
And so is my boat, and my life on the water... aspired, even if not as wet as I'd like it.
Tom, Although I've been to Concord, I have yet to visit Walden Pond and Woods. I look forward to trailer-sailing on Lake Winnipesaukee sometime, and might be able to combine those activities...
I have found that for sailing for a few hours or a day, I enjoyed the lake just as much as the ocean. It's about 16 miles long by 8 miles wide and over 300 feet deep, so is a lot like sailing on an ocean bay in many respects. I'm looking forward to sailing the Corinthian 20 there--it should be a good fit. So, yes, maybe there is a SailNear subgroup, including some who are doing this kind of sailing while working on their larger ocean boats, or in addition to them. For me the boat on the lake is only 20 minutes away, so closer than any ocean mooring, and a place where one can go very simple (such as motorless) without much risk. As I mentioned, there is no tidal current to sweep you out to sea or large commercial vessels to collide with if you are becalmed...
Yes, for me, Thoreau's ideas and ideals are undiminished, even if he personally did not always live up to them. Nor do I expect to be able to live up to them, but they do provide an ideal to aspire to...a North Star to get one's bearing from...
So in the near term, the question for me is... "Can I afford to sail" which is an easier one than the question that this thread asks, since you can fit that in around a more conventional life on land. Maybe I will be able to also do some trailer sailing (with the same trailer) with the Hurley 18 on the ocean, where there are better and deeper ramps (to accommodate its deep keel) than the lake. The old house, and my DIY vehicle and other projects all make many demands, and as I am getting older they all seem to require more effort and take longer...
Quote from: Jim_ME on May 09, 2011, 04:55:34 PM
So, yes, maybe there is a SailNear subgroup
:)
No reason trailer sailing a beautiful lake cannot be 'sailfar.' Far may bring to mind images of far away islands, different cultures, strange landscapes and all separated by big, BIG water, but ...
Far can also be 'far' spiritually...how far does one go from land based worries, even on the lake? Personally, I find it only takes a hundred yards, or even less sometimes, to be "far" from where I was when I pushed off land.
Quote
but they do provide an ideal to aspire to...a North Star to get one's bearing from...
Nicely said. Grog to you, mate.
On the topic of cruising costs and budgets, here's what we here might call some 'counter examples.' I offer this as contrast to the principles and spirit of sailfar, and since the subject of "rally cruising" recently came up with an acquaintance.
First, cruising costs, in general, lifted from this Noonsite article (http://www.noonsite.com/Members/webmaster/R2002-06-10-8) by Michael Frankel.
Quote
Yachting is expensive. Yachting around the world even more so.
Hmmm...I wonder if we should make a distinction between 'yachting' and 'cruising' or 'voyaging.'
Quote
I did keep my ears open and I took lots of notes. Over the rally's daily radio chat hour, I frequently heard of blown spinnakers, autopilots that failed and needed replacement, refrigeration failures that needed an expert at the next port, and much more. In port, dockside conversations added to this anecdotal data base with stories of whole generators being air freighted from Europe, motors overhauled, fiberglass repair due to groundings, standing rigging replacement, and an endless procession of expensive specialists to fix this 'n that.
No one was shy when asked about the cost of maintenance. Some actually sounded proud of the expensive repairs. Owners may have been proud of their aggressive sailing or their ability to foot the bills.
More detail on this below; he wrote a whole article just about the equipment failures.
Quote
I estimated that over our entire fleet - thirty-six boats ranging from 39- to 73-footers and from brand new to aging twenty-years-olds - the average equipment maintenance and replacement expenses for the circumnavigation ran to $15,000!
...
If you add in the average $18,000 rally entry fee and around $7,000 in worldwide boat insurance, the total comes to $40,000! This estimate does not include consumable items such as food and fuel, communications costs, weather services, hired crews, or travel expenses on shore. It also excludes the two biggest expenses: boat preparations for the rally, the depreciation due to wear and tear of the boat during the rally.
Is it any wonder why we get questions like "Is $3000 per month enough to 'cruise'?" Of course, a significant chunk of that is the Rally fee itself! Holy smokes...$18,000 just to sail in company with other boats, PLUS mandatory insurance together totaling OVER $20,000?
Quote
Duke on DISTANT DRUM estimated that getting his twenty-year-old boat ready for the circumnavigation cost around $140,000.
So, just the refit of this one boat cost 7 times the purchase price of a good, seaworthy Sailfar boat?
Sorry, but "Holy Smokes" again. It makes me wonder what that boat was worth to justify spending over an eighth of a million dollars getting her ready.
We continue...
Quote
HORNBLOWER, another aging boat, had about $40,000 in new equipment purchases for the trip. In HORNBLOWER's case, all installations were carried out by Bob and I with sweat wages not reflected in the true dollar cost of boat preparation.
Again two-ish times the total purchase price of a good sailfar boat JUST on new equipment and that's not even "true dollar cost"? Seeing stuff like this made the pre-SailFar dreamer in me get quite discouraged.
Quote
A new 57-foot Swan purchased for the Millennium Odyssey, reportedly cost upward of $2 million, and was put up for sale at the end of the rally for a mere $1.35 million. This was an unusual example of depreciation, but many boats face major refurbishment expenses after the voyage: painting, varnishing, fiberglass repairs, new rigging, engine and generator overhauls, new sails, canvas work, and much more. A year-and-a-half of hard sailing under tropical sun and salt water can do a lot of damage.
And having an oversized, unduly-expensive-to-maintain boat, 57 feet YIPES, can do a lot of damage to the wallet.
Quote
Some boats used hired crews with monthly salaries ranging from a couple of hundred dollars to a couple of thousand dollars per person.
Okay, at some point, it changes from recreational boating to commercial cruising. Again, it's the message to the dreamers that irks here..."I want to see the world, sailing sounds romantic, let's see here, this Noonsite page looks interesting...OH MY WORD, I have to HIRE crew to run my boat for me? I don't want to operate a cruise liner with paid crew. I think I'll go buy a plane ticket."
Quote
other [boats] had their crews share in boat expenses. My own expenses for the rally reflect the latter category. I shared in the food and fuel (and occasional docking) expenses. My total room and board and other expenses for the circumnavigation came to approximately $19,900 (about $1,200 per month), broken out as follows:
Rally entry fee $1,600
Food and fuel (my share) 2,100
Inmarsat-C e-mail transmissions 3,200
Mail forwarding 900
Planes, trains, and car rentals 5,700
Walking around money 6,400
His share did not include price of the boat, refit or maintenance. Big chunks were for "personal expenses" like walking around money.
Quote
I thought my expenses were reasonable. It was much cheaper than living on land for sixteen months, and a lot more fun.
Reasonable is certainly a subjective term.
On the equipment article by the same author about the same rally (http://www.noonsite.com/Members/webmaster/R2002-06-10-11), since boat complexity relates to cost (spiritual, but financial also):
Quote
If there is less to go wrong, less will.
Agree with this 100%.
Quote
HORNBLOWER was very fortunate in that few failures occurred
the following is considered "few failures." I find this in itself quite an interesting perspective.
Quote
Spinnaker pole: Early in the trip the internal line controlling the telescoping feature of the spinnaker pole (Forespar) failed. It was a new pole purchased for the trip. The problem was traced to screws securing a small pad eye holding the line inside the pole. The screws had come undone. The second time the pole failed, with the same problem, the screws were replaced with longer screws. By the third failure, we decided to abandon the control line. Several holes were drilled into both tubes for different length settings, and a long screw was used to fasten the telescoping pole at the desired length. It was an awkward operation to set the length on deck, insert the screw, and then hoist the pole, but it worked for the remainder of the trip.
Those line controlled poles are ridiculously expensive; if they fail that easily, what's the point? For 1/2 the cost, or FAR less, they could have made their own pole akin to what they ended up with anyway.
I recently bought the components to make my own whisker pole...for about 1/3 the cost of purchasing a brand new line control pole from Forespar. How many adjustments to the length do you make on a crossing, anyway, that makes this "screw hole" design that much more awkward? This is not around the buoys racing where the pole is up and down...
Quote
Spinnaker pole car: This failure was unrelated to the previous failure. It involved the car used to guide the butt end of the pole up and down the mast track. The car is assembled with plastic ball bearings to smooth the travel along the track. The ball bearings are held in place by a metal cap screwed into the body of the car by two, much too small, (No. 4) screws. The screws fell out and the bearings scattered over the deck. From that point on the car was used without the bearings. It was more difficult to move but not a serious problem.
Again, and as he mentions "not a serious problem" to have a 'stickier' fit, what's the point? How often does that pole height adjustment need to be made at sea?
(Sure, I'm being critical...I'm pretending these were added just for this trip, not that perhaps it was already there on a race boat typically used differently).
Quote
Refrigeration compressor: HORNBLOWER had an eighteen-year-old freezer and refrigeration unit (Crosby) driven by either a main engine compressor or a 110 volt compressor. During the first half of the voyage, experts from five different countries came aboard for repairs. We finally gave up on the engine driven compressor and on the thermostatically controlled on-off switch. During the second half of the voyage, the unit was run manually with the 110 volt compressor while the generator was on, about one hour twice a day. Late in the trip, the freon leaked out and the unit was serviced a sixth time. That service lasted about a week. The last long passage of 2,000 miles through the heat of the equator were sailed without refrigeration. A seventh repair in Grenada located another freon leak.
Okay, this is why I don't want refrigeration on my boat, and why I bristled recently when someone seemed to be suggesting I was negligent in not having it. It can be just too big of a problem.
Quote
Main engine water pump: The main engine (Perkins 65 HP) is eighteen years old. Despite its age, the engine only had about 200 hours of operation prior to the trip. The water pump bearings and seals failed about a third of the way into the trip. No reason for the failure except age. A new Perkins pump was shipped from the United States.
Diesel fuel pump: The diesel fuel pump on the generator (Kubota 5.5 KW) mysteriously failed. The generator and pump were new at the start of the trip. A new replacement pump was shipped to Tahiti.
Engines do one thing reliably....fail. I think I'd have done without that genset, at least to a port where the part was cheaper to get.
Quote
Watermaker: A ten-year-old watermaker (PUR 40) failed repeatedly for mysterious reasons. The unit had been completely overhauled by the factory in spite of the fact that it was a working unit up until the start of the trip. The output of the watermaker was barely sufficient for our needs and we kept it running almost continuously. This may have contributed to its demise. The unit was replaced with a PUR 80, which worked well for the remainder of the trip.
I marvel at the seeming unwillingness of voyaging sailors to drink rain water. Recently, three sailors crossed from San Diego to Hawaii on an Alberg 30, and used 26 gallons of fresh water for the total trip. That's just NOT that hard to carry.
But when LOA gets bigger, EVERYTHING gets bigger...the size of the crew, and thus the water requirements. There's a 27 foot power boat here in this marina with a 50 gallon water tank (my A-30 has 30 gallon presently), so wouldn't these BIG 'blue water boats' not have room for big tankage?
I mean, is a water maker REALLY necessary with all the hassles they seem to cause? (Rhetorical, we've discussed it before).
Quote
Sail flaking system: The main sail had a new flaking system (Dutchman) installed with monofilament guide lines and a set of plastic guides glued into the sail. Several times the individual plastic guides came loose from the sail and had to be reglued. At one point, the unattached guide was not noticed for quite some time allowing the monofilament line to "saw" through a few inches of sail material. The monofilament lines also parted several times. This system is not suited for the inevitable chafe of long distance cruising.
Wow. They paid money for that system?
Quote
{some minor things that could occur on ANY boat deleted}
Hydraulic steering: The seals on the eighteen-year-old hydraulic steering arm (Hynautic) leaked and were replaced twice on the trip. It was not clear what caused the leaking seals. The second time may have been the result of a misalignment during the previous installation that caused a filing action and a roughening of the stainless ram.
Tillers are simpler. Yes, they can fail, but generally don't as often, and generally pose less of an overall problem when they do.
Quote
Drifter sail: A new and infrequently used 1.5 ounce nylon drifter (UK Sailmaker) deteriorated from the sun to the point of ripping in modest winds. The sailmaker concluded that the pink material in the alternating white- and pink-striped sail was not as UV resistant as the white material. He went so far as to say that pink is the least UV resistant sail cloth. The sail was replaced with an all white drifter.
Interesting. In my recent conversation with a sailmaker, cruising boats benefit from heavier nylon light-air sails for just this reason...better sun resistance. Also, she told me that the darker fabrics (in particular, blue) were actually BETTER at resisting the sun than even white. This is NOT true with dacron, she said, but with nylon, it applies.
Quote
{more of the typical failures deleted}
RADAR: We started the trip with a small 1.5 KW RADAR (Furuno). It was far too weak to see anything that was not readily apparent to the naked eye. About halfway through the trip we upgraded the RADAR to a 2 KW unit. It was better at "seeing" things further away, but it still felt superfluous to naked vision, especially since our route was far from fog shrouded areas. At night it was much easier to spot masthead lights on freighters long before the RADAR picked up the target.
Okay, now THIS I find super-interesting. The radar added pretty much NOTHING? I grant that in foggy locales, the game is changed, but statements like
"superfluous to naked vision"
and
"much easier to spot masthead lights on freighters long before the RADAR picked up the target."
are very telling.
Quote
GPS: During the infamous August 22, 1999 "Rollover" date, one of HORNBLOWER's four GPSs (Garmin) gave erratic readings for a few hours, two stopped working for a day, until we received an e-mail message with instructions on how to reset them, and a fourth worked throughout the "Rollover." The experience made Bob and Judy nervous enough to quickly order a fifth unit for the boat. I suspect they were secretly lusting for the newer model and this was a good excuse. There were no problems during the much ballyhooed Y2K rollover.
This again makes me shake my head a little. Offshore, and off soundings (grin), is GPS really necessary...to the point of FOUR not being enough?
No mention of sextant back-up?
The rest of it is pretty standard stuff that could be issues on any cruising boat (sailfar, KISS or otherwise).
Finally, one closing point from another article in the same series by Frenkel. (http://www.noonsite.com/Members/webmaster/R2002-06-10-9) Here, he tells the following brief story:
Quote
During the 3,000 mile Galapagos to Marquesas passage in the Millennium Odyssey, one of the boats developed autopilot problems, and the elderly British couple reported getting tired of hand steering. Immediately, a nearby Italian boat volunteered a couple of crewmembers and plenty of pasta to complete the passage.
Though this particular failure did not end up costing $$, it did cost in terms of 'sense of accomplishment' for that British couple. Further, autopilot failures are common enough that I wonder sheet-to-tiller gear is not espoused by the 'rags' as good, low-cost backup gear.
Pat Henry, during her circumnavigation, tried sheet to tiller steering after her umpteenth autopilot failure, and she remarked that it worked so good and was so simple she wished she'd used it earlier.
Why is such a simple, low-cost solution to a potentially significant problem (being too exhausted to steer) not included in the rally's required 'safety gear?' Required gear like EPIRBs only help AFTER catastrophe, but some things can help PREVENT catastrophe.
I shake my head...it's almost as if there is some "force" preventing simple, low-cost solutions from being utilized. What a shame for that British couple: that they could not complete their crossing via their own resourcefulness.
And what a shame for that fellow out there dreaming of taking his family on "the trip of a lifetime" and this is the only kind of 'voyaging' information and stories he reads.
Here's to hoping they find Hiscock, the Pardeys, James Baldwin's site and perhaps Sailfar.net.
Captain Smollett, wonderful, encouraging and wise words...
thank you so much for confirming that the latest "automatic gps-actuated tack cringle bracket (available in stainless or silicon-bronze)" is not always adding function to a system (the sailfar vessel) that works best in simple mode.
Captain Smollet; You shure hit the nail on the head. Complexity creates complexity, creates expense, creates failure,creates expense, etc. etc. ad infinitum. Another point, sail your ship in a conservative manner and save your rigging. Sailing with a rally cuts you off from local contact, and thus diminishes the quality and educational aspect of your voyage. A large expensive boat intimadates locals who will be less likely to approach and welcome you. Workmen, look at you as a cash cow.
As for technolgy, its not a matter of new vs old, but an appropriate mixture of your options. One of my best purchases was a NASA Instruments AIS receiver, which combined with a Garmin gps 72 sounded an alarm whenever a ship came within 16 miles. The Windpilot held course, and proved as reliable as a rock. To go without at least a plastic sextant is insane. If you sail the North Atlantic,you can keep the compasss on E or W and keep track of the North star and you will find a continent eventually, carry food and water. Sail Far and enjoy Phil
There are different ways of skinning a cat -or how that adage goes.
;D ;D
Hilarious AND tragic to hear about how lost some people are even before taking to the Sea. Could that make a new adage maybe? 'lost before Sea'
No matter how much 'stuff' and bells and whistles one may want to have, or believe 'necessary' at least some basic knowledge and skill in repairs AND a sufficient supply of spares seem, to me at least, as a basic game plan.
But I always suspected that those 'rallies' are for people with more money than experience and knowledge to feel 'safe'. There will always (?) be another 'captain' around to offer extra crew and pasta.... :o ::)
Smollett:
Another amazing analysis of how not to practice SailFar, or any other type of sailing.
However, I should mention that my cruise to Bermuda last year was as part of a much more modest "rally."
I don't know how much my skipper paid to participate in the Bermuda Rally, but it helped us focus on our goal, provided us with a twice-daily sat-phone check-in, gave us some routing and weather info, and provided us with a place to tie up when we reached St. Georges.
We were sailing an older boat, with some experienced and some inexperienced people on board (like me), and I'd say that this particular rally was a nice way for relative bluewater novices to make this offshore trip.
Our boat, a Cape Dory 33, was the smallest and, I think, the oldest boat in the fleet. And the only "fancy" stuff we were required to carry, other than basic safety gear, was the rented satellite phone (a piece of junk) and a transponder that was supposed to let all our shoreside fans "track" our progress.
We never actually sailed with any of the other participants, and I think we only caught a glimpse of another rally boat on the horizon once or twice. And there certainly weren't any spare skippers or crews (or pasta) if we needed it.
But it gave the venture a bit of structure. I'm sure that informal "buddy boating," and use of a ham radio net would have accomplished much the same things.
As for rallies costing $19,000 -- they might provide a good business model for the organizers, but that's no way to go sailing.
--Joe
The topic of rally cruising or even less formal buddy boating may seem off topic to affording to cruise, but I do think it's relevant.
This biggest problem I personally have with this kind of travel, and this is only MY personal view, is the abdication of responsibility it encourages. I've seen it many times in various venues (hiking in largish groups, RV-ing, and boating)...either a groupthink takes over or one individual manages to impose his will.
Deciding when to leave port is a very important decision for each skipper to make...I absolutely abhor even the notion of "going" just because someone else is or not because they are not. Two boats arrived here 'together' last summer, and one of the skippers was more 'nervous' about the wx than the other (oddly enough, he was on the larger of the two boats), and the second skipper told me it drove him nuts sometimes to sit in port with "them" on perfectly good travel days.
It's easy to say, "oh, that's not me," but that peer pressure can be tremendous...especially as the group size grows.
So, how does this relate to cost? Look at the damage list in those articles. Look at the Noonsite web page for rallies - some of those rallies published days and TIMES of departure from port. I doubt if there is a full gale going on that they would leave, but, hey, momentum like that is very hard to redirect. So, I just wonder, how much of that damage to boats...the wear and tear kind...was due to what I might call "poor decision making."
Phil's advice above about a conservative approach makes a certain degree of sense, yet how often on these rallies do people adapt a "race" mentality? At best, this unduly stresses gear and wears it out. At worst, we get boats pressing on in bad conditions with disasters like Queen's Birthday, the Fastnets and similar.
None of this HAS to occur...a good strong skipper CAN resist ALL of these temptations. But sadly, quite a few do succumb and "go" because the other boats are going, or press on because they perceive they are at the back of the pack. Last year, I heard a fellow trying to convince a lady (and her husband) to join their 8 boat group to the Islands, and her biggest concern was "we might slow you down." With that on her mind before she even leaves, what does it bring to the decision making process at sea?
Her boat, her choices and fair enough. She also mentioned that they were not really into the "social" scene of hangin out in bars every night. This kind of thing bites a family member who routinely RV's with several other couples...and routinely complains about how they (my family) never get to do what THEY want. One guy (of the group of three couples) ALWAYS picks the restaurants, ALWAYS picks a given day's sight-seeing itinerary and ALWAYS picks the "we'll stay here until day x, then move on to location y."
For someone wanting to 'cruise' on a tighter budget, keeping up with this kind of person can break the bank...or at the least, cause stress that it will do so.
I'm glad you had a good experience. Obviously, a lot of people enjoy traveling like that and no doubt not all rallies are created equally. It's just not for ME, and I think anyone entering into that kind of travel needs to examine very careful the financial and emotional costs of going.
And none of THIS was mentioned by Frankel in his article about "rally or not." The only 'con' he mentioned was "rugged individualism and self sufficiency." I don't think his assessment was completely fair, and his bias in favor of the rally was clearly evident.
I suspect Magnus's assessment was right on...for the most part, rallies are a way for people with more money than seamanship to "buy" memories at sea. If that sounds harsh, sorry. It's my take; I think when you try to buy with money what you are not willing to buy with "spirit," you never gain the full reward.
On Edit: Upon re-reading that last paragraph, it DOES sound harsh. Joe, that absolutely was NOT directed at you and your experience with the rally to Bermuda.
With that comment, I was thinking more of the "buy a 2 million dollar Swan just for the rally, do the rally, and sell it right after at a pretty big loss" type, than anyone joining a boat as crew, or even already owning a boat and joining a rally.
Certainly folks have different motivations for joining rallies, and I was addressing one specific set therein...not the WHOLE 'rally' group.
Apologies if I 'mispoke' ...
Quote from: Captain Smollett on June 08, 2011, 02:21:34 PM
Upon re-reading that last paragraph, it DOES sound harsh. Joe, that absolutely was NOT directed at you and your experience with the rally to Bermuda.
With that comment, I was thinking more of the "buy a 2 million dollar Swan just for the rally, do the rally, and sell it right after at a pretty big loss" type, than anyone joining a boat as crew, or even already owning a boat and joining a rally.
Certainly folks have different motivations for joining rallies, and I was addressing one specific set therein...not the WHOLE 'rally' group.
Apologies if I 'mispoke' ...
You didn't offend me at all. And I agree with a lot of what you say. I didn't mean to hijack the the thread, but merely to point out that the rally was a useful experience. The builders of production boats, the manufacturers of electronic gadgets and the publishers of "mainstream" magazines are all pushing boats of increasing expense and complexity, as well as selling them to people without the experience to sail them.
Once again: A great thread, and no offense taken.
--Joe
Laura and I simply don't "buddy boat" We may cruise in company with another boat
For awhile but it is made clear from the beginning that it's a short term thing.
Last thing we want is to feel responsible for someone else, or have them feel that about us.
I've tried it a few times and always wound up dis-satisfied.
Post edited to get rid of the word "Donnie" that this iPhone decided to change "don't" into!!!
on numerous occasioning when I was driving truck I hooked up with anther trucker and ended up with a driver depending on me to make sure that they made there loads on time I would;d not like to have this same thing happen when I was cruising
I have sailed with other boats a number of times. Sometimes it is a positive and collaborative experience that lasts as long as it lasts. Others it's a mama duck and ducklings thing and I get tired fairly quickly.
A short story:
I was on delivery from Charleston SC to Beaufort NC and met a single-hander trying to get home to Baltimore. We sailed in company offshore and he could get some sleep knowing we were watching and would yell to him over the VHF next to his head. We did have to slow down a bit but it only cost us a couple of hours getting to Beaufort and it saved him a couple of days getting home over heading up the ICW. Good experience all around - short duration, everyone capable, and helping a guy out.
Quote from: Captain Smollett on June 08, 2011, 02:21:34 PM
Phil's advice above about a conservative approach makes a certain degree of sense, yet how often on these rallies do people adapt a "race" mentality? At best, this unduly stresses gear and wears it out. At worst, we get boats pressing on in bad conditions with disasters like Queen's Birthday, the Fastnets and similar.
The conservative approach includes your mental and physical health as well as saving your equiptment A survey of the ARC Rally fleet at Angra do Heroismo revealed a preponderance of big cheaply builtboats Hunters, Bavaria etc Exactly the type of vessels one does not want to punish. Phil
Quote from: Auspicious on June 09, 2011, 08:03:40 AM
I was on delivery from Charleston SC to Beaufort NC and met a single-hander trying to get home to Baltimore. We sailed in company offshore and he could get some sleep knowing we were watching and would yell to him over the VHF next to his head. We did have to slow down a bit but it only cost us a couple of hours getting to Beaufort and it saved him a couple of days getting home over heading up the ICW. Good experience all around - short duration, everyone capable, and helping a guy out.
That's a very nice way of caring for others. Most appreciated I am sure
I sail regularly with a group of small boat (I am the largest with 19'LOA)sailors up in the PNW. Moat all have always carried enough experience and all realize that though we sail together we are each individually responsible for ourselves. Sometimes we split for separate anchorages, but we always communicate what we are doing so everyone knows.
Though to be honest I prefer cruising alone, there is a comfort in numbers when exploring new areas.
My previous post came off as Rather harsh. What I meant to relay was that that other truckers would blame you if they were late and I don't want to get in that situation again. I am looking farward to meeting sailing with other boats.
now we sail with a group on the lake here and need less to say we can't get very far at on time.
Hi All!
It has been a while but I thought I would check back in. I have been cruising for the past 4 weeks and I'm having a blast!
If this month is any indication, the cost of cruising is about 1K a month, total (no smoking, very modest drinking). We go out to eat about once a week. We have had to repair few items and nothing has broken (I'm keeping my fingers crossed). I think that it could easily be done for as little as $800.00. However, we generally eat a modest breakfast and do not eat lunch. Dinner is whatever we want... usually something off the grill.
I would like to make a longer post about where we have gone and what we have done but I am due at the beach to meet my wife soon. We have met some great folks down here.
Although it is very warm down here in southern Florida in the summer time, it is not, at all, unbearable (at least not in my opinion). The evenings are amazing... temps in the low 70s. It is so pleasant at night that I have only spent ONE night sleeping below deck the entire trip (because the rain was just too much).
Great views, beautiful water and beaches, sunsets like an exploding tropical flower painted by Van Gough; Dolphins and Sea Turtles. I have seen 2 Manatees!
I will try to post a longer thread when I get a chance and will upload some pictures and video.
Fair Winds!
That is wonderful to hear!!!! You're doing it!!!! Wish I was in your shoes right now, but I have a few more years to go.... Fair winds!!!!
It has been a while, I wonder if there are any updates on this cruising? How did it go long term?