sailFar.net

Hello Everyone.
    Thank you for letting us participate at Sailfair.  Hope someday we can contribute info to future wannabe boaters.
For now, we are the seekers of information.
    Thanks to Ed Robinson, author of "Leap of Faith/Quit Your Job, Live on a Boat," our lives all of a sudden have a new direction. Chris and I (Pat) are at the very beginning..still have obligations like an elderly parent, working, everything is paid for, just have to get rid of it all.  They say dreamers are doers, so I think we are headed in the right direction anyway.
    What kind of boat do we want is the BIG question. After visiting the Miami Boat Show last month, we at least know the boat will not be new. So do we want a monohull or a motor driven boat, such as a trawler?  Would love to hear pros and cons of both.  Personally a 37 ft cat would make me very happy, but way too pricey.
    Looking forward to hearing about your opinions and ideas.  Pat
 

While you have pressing obligations, you've got time.

As I understand your post, you are first time boaters. Are you looking to cross oceans? Hop up and down the coast to the Bahamas? Circumnavigate? Not sure? Everyone's needs are different. We all have different desires, budgets, and abilities. The trick is to find what works well for you.

I strongly suggest not trying to find the perfect boat to start. You don't really know your requirements and needs yet. Buy something smallish and affordable. It doesn't have to be terribly pretty; but it should be basically sound and have a cabin with bunks, galleys and head. Then learn to sail. Most people I know are self taught (much safer and easier on a small boat); but if it is in the budget you will get a pretty good head start (and probably make fewer bad habits) by taking a class.

Then you sail. At first perhaps for a few hours at a time; but definitely try and do some cruising, even if just for a weekends and the occasional week or two vacation at a time. The idea is to find out 1) if you like sailing, 2) if you like cruising, 3) what do you really need to be happy doing both. If sailing is not for you, it's better to find out after spending a couple thousand dollars for a boat (which you will likely get back when you sell) as opposed to tens of thousands of dollars. Try to sail on other peoples boats as well, preferably boats that are different (fin keel opposed to full keel, monohull opposed to multi, power vs. sail, etc...).

Resist the need to get every convenience under the sun. Gimmicks and gadgetry are addictive. This is a small boat site, with fairly strong KISS leanings. While I'm not one to tell you what you don't need, and certainly I won't tell you what you don't want, it is probably a better idea to start very simple and add complications gradually after lots of thought and research. The less you have, the easier and less expensive your life will be.

(FWIW, I'm still in the prep stage myself. I've got a pretty nice boat and sail six or seven hundred miles a year up and down the Chesapeake. I'm getting ever closer to my day of freedom, although it is taking me longer than I had anticipated...)

Godot has provided some very good advice. I would add that you also need to consider where you will be keeping the boat if you are unable to leave soon. In other words, if you will mainly be tied to a dock maybe a big old stinkpot would be best--lots of room, cheap to own if you aren't burning fuel, easy to find used, etc. If you are planning on eventually going far afield your requirements become much more critical and you won't know enough at this stage to make the right choices. Also, much of Florida is shallow, so don't buy a deep-keel boat from the north that you can't use locally. Some areas in the U.S. have very expensive dock prices, like New England, so plan on that or maybe keep your boat on a mooring. By the way, there are some older cats available that are good boats you might look into, like used Prouts and Catalacs. Sure, they will require elbow-grease to bring up to snuff and they are not as huge inside as modern boats, but they have proven themselves to be seaworthy and capable.

Been pretty well covered, but I'd add this.

Lived aboard and cruised a 35 foot trimaran some years ago. Now cruise Tehani, a 25 footer. Quite a few thousand miles last 5-6 years

Reason?

The tri required a ton of maintenance - more than I wanted to fool with

a 35 foot cat would be a BIG job to maintain . Few who sail boats that size do the maintenance them selves, and paying someone else is NOT cheap. If you have the bucks, for sure go for it. If not, look smaller. Something JUST big enough.


Smaller boats = smaller, lighter (cheaper) gear and way less maintenance.

You do NOT want to  be the boat, sitting in east podunk, waiting on some expensive part to be flown in, gotten through customs, and installed, while the cruising time drains away. Takes the fun out :D

Wow!!! You guys are fantastic!!  Ok, here's the del.  We are almost retirement age and the money pockets are not that deep. We don't want to be a slave to our boat, just as we have never been a slave to our house.  As long as it doesn't leak, sink or stink too badly, it's an option.
I spent a week on a Leopard 47 in the BVI's (my 60th birthday present from my brother), with a captain and chef of course, and really liked the stability and the space. We are looking in the 32 foot range. Still to big?? Thanks Charlie for your honest and sound advice.
Godot, thank you for pointing out that we do have time. I have very limited experience. As a kid, we lived on a lake and had rowboats(you would be surprised how many people do not know how to row a boat), canoes, a Squall(a bathtub looking sailboat), and my favorite, a sailfish, about 16 ft I think. Pulled  waterskiiers at the private girls camp on the other side of the lake. Fast forward about 20 years had had an 18 foot bowrider on the ICW. Learned I do not want vinyl anything as it molds.
Our dream is to do the east coast of US in the summer..or at least while learning our boat. Eventually head over to the Bahamas, the Grenadines, BVI's, USVI's. I never want to be cold again!!
There is a sailing school near by in Merritt Island with several different options, including liveaboard for 5 days.  ASA school and all that.  Hoping to do that this summer.
Kettlewell, we do have several options as far as where to keep a boat.  We definitely need to find out how much $$ we'd be shelling out. It would be nice to get something soon, so we can work on it and do a weekend sail, or even a day sail.  Thank you for letting me know about the two Cats available.  I've looked briefly..very good possibility. Question..is a 27 footer too small?
Thanks again for all your help.  So glad I'm here in SailFar.  :)

I assume that you plan on living on a boat and downsizing from a home. If this is the case then I would suggest you sit down and make a list of must haves. This will help determine the size and type of boat.  Personally I would go with a trawler.

One thing to remember is get a survey.  It can save you heartaches and tons of money.

In my experience, I'm afraid it's a given that you are going to be a slave to the boat. The only question is how much of a task master it is going to be.

Is 27' too small? Is 32' too big? Very personal questions that no one else can really answer for you. Given that this is a site of small boat enthusiasts, I think you will find that most here would say that 27' is plenty (check out http://cruisinglealea.com/ for a couple happily sailing on a 27' Vega), although it's wise to remember that there is a wide variation amongst boats of a similar size. Assuming you are in reasonably good health, you should be able to handle most 32' sailboats underway just fine (and will most certainly be more comfortable below), although they might be a bit more work at the dock (and a little bit pricier as most marinas seem to charge by the foot). If you go to some of the other sites, I suspect they will largely encourage you to go quite a bit larger, and be largely dismissive of long term cruising in small boats. Different strokes for different folks. With your cruising plans, you probably don't need to focus exclusively on solid blue water boats, and may do quite well with a solid coastal cruiser.

If the boat is in good shape (don't buy a fixer upper unless you enjoy fixing up and don't mind delaying departure a couple years) and you resist the urge to install all the bells and whistles (or are willing to go without if they break), maintenance shouldn't be out of control, with bottom jobs and varnish being the biggest recurring items.  New standing rigging and sails might be a good investment on any good old boat planning to go far afield for a few years. A strong engine will save you headaches (even in paradise I imagine spending your days fighting with a cantankerous monster is likely going to be no fun) , although in the frustrating experience I've had with the iron beasts, it is a good idea to learn how to set and retrieve anchor under sail.

"Is a 27 footer too small?"

Depends on the boat AND the people. I know a guy who lived aboard, and cruised long term on a Catalac 25. It was big enough for two, but that boat is slow for a multi- heavily built, as are the other Catalacs. They were built for English waters.

The one question here that has not been addressed- how big are YOU-  a small boat like Tehani is perfectly fine for ME at 5'8, 165 pounds. And my 5'2, 105 Ex.

The boat would NOT be large enough for a 6 foot plus, 200 pound guy and perhaps a 6 foot (slender) wife. THAT is a  part of the equation that would really make a difference.

And David's advice about the survey is really good- heed it

Oh, and by the way, I'm 73  so you have time ;)

Sounds like you are thinking about the right things! Which is a great contrast to many, so you are off to a good start. The idea of doing the East Coast and down to the Bahamas is the perfect way to get your "sea legs," learn more about cruising, and begin to develop the necessary repair and maintenance skills required. "Slave to a boat" is a term you will hear a lot, because many feel that way. The unfortunate truth is that cruising is about repairing boats in exotic places, no matter how small or simple your boat is. The larger and more modern the boat, the more stuff there is to break and fix. Frankly, I don't think age is the determinant of the amount of work: it is size and complexity. Unless you are rich you will have to do almost all the work yourself. So, mechanical things and maintenance things have to be things you don't just look at as chores, but as part of the expierience. I can remember many days of wandering back alleys in places like Cartagena searching for some elusive boat part, or more often some material that I could fashion into a workable substitute for a boat part. I arrived once in St. Thomas after an offshore run from the USA. We had some fairly serious damage offshore which we had mostly fixed in San Juan, but we still lusted after a few runs to the local parts stores to fix other things that were broken--one of the joys of arriving in a new port! After a few days of that we headed off to explore. Another boat had sailed in and anchored near us. Their's was a tale of woe. After a complete refit at the cost of $10s of thousands, they had left Florida, and many major systems had broken on the way: wind generator, high-output alternator, refrigeration, etc. They had lost all power and had sailed half the way with no lights, electricity, or navigation gear--just a sextant. Two months later we returned to St. Thomas and that boat hadn't lifted its anchor in that time, and they still weren't done finding parts and repairing stuff.

Don't let your cruising dreams end like that! Keep it simple, learn how to repair almost everything, and be prepared with back ups to the back ups. Sorry to be so long winded.

Quote from: CharlieJ on March 09, 2014, 10:15:39 AM
Oh, and by the way, I'm 73  so you have time ;)

I'll have to disagree with Charlie here. Not on him being 73, cause he is, but on having time.  No one knows what tomorrow will bring.

We purchased our first boat in 08 to do some cruising. She was a 22' Starwind.  Cancer hit me and set thing back big time. We did do a cruise for 60 days to NOLA and back to our home port. The wife said we need a bigger boat. So I purchased a 27' Watkins. Standing head room and 10' beam.  Then the wife had to have neck surgery and now 9 months later we might not get to do the cruising we had planned.  Hope we can get more answers tomorrow on how long Lisa will need treatment as a results of her surgery.

I'm not saying rush into anything just keep in mind that the older we get our health can take a major down turn in a hurry.  I'll be 70 this year.

Size. Personally, I think about 30-32 feet in a mono is the perfect size for a couple to be able to go anywhere, and live comfortably while cruising. But, if you are primarily living aboard at a dock, with cruising something to be done down the road, most people will quickly find they need more space. The 27-foot Catalac is a capable boat and quite large for its length, but no speed demon that's for sure. We used to own a 32-foot cat (homebuilt by the folks we bought it from) that we cruised from Maine to the Caribbean and out to Bermuda and back. Plenty of room for a couple, but it was crowded when we had a family of four and the load carrying capability of a small cat is very limited before you impact seaworthiness. Ours was always overloaded, IMHO. That's why I moved to a 38-foot mono motorsailor when I wanted to take my family of four off on a two-year cruise down into the Caribbean. First and foremost a small cruising sailboat is a cargo ship, and it needs to be able to safely carry an adequate store of water, food, fuel, and gear. IMHO that can be done in about 28-32 feet in a mono for a couple, or about 32-38 feet in a cat for a couple.

Thank you all for responding. 
Grime...Yes, we will be liveaboards..I'm not a "thing" kind of person..just want the bare necessities to make things safe and fairly comfortable. Yes, we are aware of surveys.  We can deal with cosmetic kind of stuff..would like to have something that is pretty much sea-worthy to start.  I've read a lot about repairs..what B O A T stands for..parts you need to have on hand, etc.  Realize it's not all fun and games, but neither is anything else in this life.
Charlie, you bring up a good point with people size.  I forgot that when I was on the 47 foot Leopard, I thought at the time Chris would have a tough time in the berths and heads as those areas were tight.  Will have to remember that in our search.
Godot, I believe the only thing we will want on our boat besides the navigational and safety equipment and a percolator will be a/c..(for Chris)oh, an ice maker would be nice
Kettlewell..we're thinking 34' max..smaller is cheaper..it would be nice to afford dockage, but I don't think that will be much of and option on a fulltime basis.
Oh, dinghy davits would be nice also..and a dinghy..a future discussion.
Thanks again to all of you who have responded to my questions..You've been a tremendous help. Will keep you posted.  Hope I can help someone out one day. Pat

If you haven't already read them , let me mention just a few books that might assist you  in this

Any of the Pardey books, but "The Self Sufficient Sailor" comes to mind- Definitely slanted toward, smaller, and simpler, and GO. Excellent read.

Annie Hills "Voyaging on a Small Income" is a decent read on simplicity.

Katy Burkes "the Complete Liveaboard Book" details a good bit of when she and Bruce Bingham lived aboard Sabrina, a 20 Flicka , and aboard Saga a 34 foot motor sailor. She goes into a lot of detail discussing power cruisers, Motor sailors, and sailboats, both pros and cons.

And by the way- a motor sailor wouldn't be a bad choice.

Also, IF you can find a copy, Parker's "Ocean Voyaging" describes his progress from a 45 footer, to a 29 footer.


There are many others, but I just picked these from my bookcase as good starting points..

And good luck- it's a wonderful life. Can't wait til I can head out again.

I hope you're joking about a/c and an icemaker, because those things are pretty much useless once you leave the dock and are generally found on much larger vessels than you are talking about. A lot of us stick a household a/c in through a hatch when tied up to a dock for a long time someplace hot. You can't use those things at anchor without a generator, and its assorted complications.

Thanks Charlie. Will check on the books you mentioned.
Yes Kettlewell..after living in Florida for 25 years, if the temp is below 80? I'm cold!!
So how does one keep the beer cold?  ;D

What is a Hero Member?

LOL- I live on the south Texas coast and don't even use an AC unit at home. Rarely found the need onboard either- I use a wind scoop, which can sometimes be TOO much ;) I do have a 12 volt fan which gets used- little current draw, and my solar  panel keeps up.

Totally agree with Kettlewell on the Icemaker- HUGE energy hog. I use a built in ice box, HEAVILY insulated  for cold drinks, but if Ice isn't readily available, such as in the Bahama out islands, I use the space for storing dry foods. NEVER put any food in theere. I work hard to not have leftovers,, and after a while you learn how much food to cook. For instance, meats, canned aboard in a pressure cooker, are in 1/2 pint jars-JUST enough for a meal.

And in the Bahamas, forget about beer. When I was there last (2011) beer was $6 a bottle, $24 a six pack in the grocery store in Nassau (and Bimini) Rum however, was $7 a liter for GOOD stuff, $9 a liter and a half. You do the math-Discovered coconut rum and Doles pineapple juice, kinda like a Pina Colada. Goes pretty good even warm :D

OLD timer- been here a while, based on number of posts ;D

In  other words, a talkative character ;D ;D

For ice and a cold beer on board. All you need to do is get a Engel or ARB frige/freezer. They don't draw as much power as some might think. Sure the price runs about 900 for a 40 or 50 qt unit. They look like an ice chest.

Quote from: Grime on March 09, 2014, 10:35:49 PM
For ice and a cold beer on board. All you need to do is get a Engel or ARB frige/freezer. They don't draw as much power as some might think. Sure the price runs about 900 for a 40 or 50 qt unit. They look like an ice chest.

Yabut- you got a LOT more solar power than I do ;D ;D ;D

Good point though.

Quote from: CharlieJ on March 09, 2014, 11:14:40 PM

Quote from: Grime on March 09, 2014, 10:35:49 PM
For ice and a cold beer on board. All you need to do is get a Engel or ARB frige/freezer. They don't draw as much power as some might think. Sure the price runs about 900 for a 40 or 50 qt unit. They look like an ice chest.

Yabut- you got a LOT more solar power than I do ;D ;D ;D

Good point though.

And here's a very good example of something mentioned earlier- Grime is a friend, keeps his boat right down the dock from mine.  Grime has a 27 footer, while Tehani is 25 foot. He also has a beam of 10 feet, while I have 7 feet. Makes a HUGE difference in room below. He can fit that Engel in quite nicely, while I simply do not have the space. /

Something to consider while looking.

Rum is good!  :P
Food handling and prep will be a learning experience. I live by the KISS method  as much as possible. If it's too complicated, I avoid it.
I understand what you mean by boat size..having been on several boats at the Miami boat show, I think I prefer the wider beam. Makes the boat seem more spacious. I think that was why trawlers and Cats were being considered. We figure a monohull has overall more pluses...my concern was the draft..for Florida coastal and Bahamas..being shallow.
If it's not too personal, was wondering what kind of dock fees you two pay..and what is your hurricane plan?  Haha..Yeah,, being a Florida resident and having gone thru Francis and Jeanne, back to back hurricanes in '04, we are very aware of how things can be.  We figure if we keep an eye out, we'll have plenty of time to get out of Dodge.
Yes, we have a lot to learn. Thanks

Our slip fee is $4.00 per foot based on dock length. With $15.00 per month elec and $30.00 per person for liveaboards. We have new floating docks, wifi, dayroom, kitchen and showers. We have the best price going.

We only have a couple of choices for hurricane holes. Charlie can chime in on this one.

That's an extremely low dockage rate, but great if you can find it! Just for comparison purposes, here in New England rock bottom dockage for the 6-month season starts at around $100 per foot, plus electric. Monthly dockage is a lot more than that. I'm look around right now for a new rental mooring for 6 months and prices at the low end are $1000 with the average closer to $1800. You have to pay for the six months up front. An overnight rental mooring ball is $50 or more many places, with the average probably around $40, with no services--just the tie up. However, if you are cruising, there are plenty of free anchorages most places, where you get the wind for free for cooling. When I was talking about a generator I took your thoughts on an a/c and icemaker literally. They are huge power draws. Yes, you can run 12-volt fridges with wind and solar, but probably some engine time too. The reality is that most sailors motor most of the time these days, and one of the reasons is they have to run the engine anyway to charge the batteries so they might as well use it to get somewhere too, and it is better for the engine to have a good load on it.

While I lack the practical experience of these seasoned cruisers, I would like to draw on my own history to ring in here and say the most important thing you can do in your situation is to actually make a decision and choose SOMETHING!

As a natural lover of research and personal education, I enjoy passionately dreaming and scheming about "The" boat on an almost daily basis.  After only half a dozen sails on Carita what I am sadly realizing is that I wasted so many cruising seasons shoreside because my planning and dreaming kept me in fear of buying the 'wrong' boat.  In truth the 'right' boat is the one you're sailing on!

For dirt cheap (probably not much more than the cost of two of you taking one of those 5 day courses) there are lots of serviceable and complete fibreglass sloops on the market, particularly in Florida it seeems.  FWIW if I were where you are knowing what I know now, my priority would be to just get out there and do it - start living the life as frequently as your schedule allows.  Real-world experience will dictate what you can and can't live with without on "The" boat.

Quote from: DarrenC on March 10, 2014, 10:31:35 AM


For dirt cheap (probably not much more than the cost of two of you taking one of those 5 day courses) there are lots of serviceable and complete fibreglass sloops on the market, particularly in Florida it seeems.  FWIW if I were where you are knowing what I know now, my priority would be to just get out there and do it - start living the life as frequently as your schedule allows.  Real-world experience will dictate what you can and can't live with without on "The" boat.

I have some "winter Texan" neighbors down from Canada. He has a custom, fully found 30 footer, ready to sail, up on Lake Ontario that he's about ready to just GIVE away, because it's such a buyers market right now. GOOD used sailboats are so common that the new boat market is hurting.

Quote from: CharlieJ on March 10, 2014, 11:03:19 AM


I have some "winter Texan" neighbors down from Canada. He has a custom, fully found 30 footer, ready to sail, up on Lake Ontario that he's about ready to just GIVE away, because it's such a buyers market right now. GOOD used sailboats are so common that the new boat market is hurting.

Charlie,

When you get a chance to chat with the fellow again, drop me an email or a PM with a little information.  There's a guy at my marina who frequently seems to have funds burning a hole in his pocket and a near-constant case of next-boat-itis that may be a perfect fit...

lol  we sit on his front porch and sip a glass of wine frequently in the afternoons.

I'll see him today most likely

PattyLee,

  First, welcome aboard!  Congratulations on making such an unconventional decision and doubly so for sharing your vision and your questions here.  My brain is filled with thoughts for you, I will type more in a moment....

  I offer your first grog on this site.  Please enjoy it with me, I am laying at anchor in what will quite likely be one of your future destinations.... Marsh Harbour which is on Great Abaco, in the Bahamas.  :)

  I am looking around the anchorage here, and doing a quick survey of the boats.  The numbers of fools folks out here cruising, and living aboard may have decreased this year.... But there are still many.

  There is an ideal, and there is reality.  I think you have come to the right place to find the right "ideal", as many (most) of the folks I have seen give up or fail do so because they go too large or too complicated to sustain the life they envision within their means.

  More thoughts in a bit, enjoy your grog.  It is about 77f here, and the sunset was stunning.  Some still blow Conch horns in the harbor to celebrate a beautiful day...

 

First, to narrow it down a bit.

  A VERY important consideration for you will be your intended cruising area.  We are so amazingly blessed here in North America, especially those of us on East Coast and Gulf Coast.... Access to what are likely the very best cruising grounds in the world!  All without having to cross an ocean.

  If you eliminate ocean crossing, your list of boats gets much easier to narrow down.  I have spent a bunch of time in the Med, and don't feel any need to go back. 

  For me, I do not like being cold.  Boats don't like places that the water turns to that hard stuff (like the ice you put in your rum glass in a civilized climate).  Nothing north of the Chesapeake is a legitimate year round cruising ground because of the cold....  Great destinations to visit, but not to live full time.

  Many many folks find a lifetime of cruising in the Bahamas, and splitting ones time between the US and the Bahamas can be a very good way to make it work.  Heading south is a good way to broaden the experience, and can give other great experiences without the need for a go-around-the-world kind of boat.

Draft:

  If you are going to cruise the Bahamas, and the US East / Gulf coast you will want shoal draft.  5.5' max, absolutely nothing over 6'...  Less is definitely better. 

  I started with draft, since this is one of the easier topics.... Ok, maybe a cop out.  ;)

Having been up and down the coast, around the Bahamas and as far south as Columbia I can tell you that every bit matters.  Emerald Tide draws just a little less then 6' and she takes a lot of attention to keep out of the shallow stuff.  There are very few places I have ever wanted to sail her that I could not, but I often find myself going the longer way around.  Faith draws about 4' and I would say that the difference opens up a huge number of anchorages....

  When it comes to draft, less is more...   A very shallow draft boat may be not only uncomfortable off shore (even making a passage to the BAhamas need be considered off shore for this discussion) and will likely be less comfortable at anchor....

Another Draft: vertical draft...  (Also known as air draft).

Most bridges on the Atlantic ICW are 65' or opening.  Nothing over 49' high can pass under the bridge on the Okeechobee Waterway (unless you lay a larger boat over with barrels or other means)....

Faith carries a vertical draft of 37.5' with her antenna included.  Really she is about 35'.  I have found few places I wanted to go that I could not access with that.

Emerald Tide carries 56' in the air, I do not go under most inland bridges with her but is it certainly manageable for the ICW.  She is a cutter headed sloop, if she were ketch rigged she would have a shorter rig and I could take her across the Okeechobee Waterway, which would have saved a lot of time on a couple of trips.

I do not consider a boat with anything approaching 65' of airdraft to be a practical cruising boat in your likely cruising grounds, I think most here will agree <65' and less is better... Really.

So air draft?  Less is more... Again.

s/v Faith
Thank you for the welcome. Just got back from celebrating my dads 91st birthday.  Gotta  hit the sack soon as the alarm goes off at 3:30.. Ewwww, doesn't that sound nasty? Rather be where you are. Thanks for the grog.  Cheers!
DarrenC
We are finding that you are absolutely correct in that it is definitely a buyers market for boats at this time. I'm actually shocked at what's available for what we want to spend.
Grime and Ketterwell
Looks like we have five marinas or dockage in town.  Not bad for a town of 25,000 people. One is a full-blown marina, complete with indoor storage in a building that can withstand up to 140 mph winds. Will be checking out prices probably this week. We have several other options outside of town also.  So, if we can find something reasonable, we can become weekend sailors sooner than we thought.
Then there are taxes and insurance..the mind boggles!!  But we can do this!! ;D
Many people that we know who have been retired for several years say "Do it now, before it's too late." Sounds like sound advice.
Been thinking about what you guys have recommended about size..and have come to the conclusion that we need to get what will make us happy. We aren't going to be doing a lot of sailing..just kind of meandering around, checking things out, staying here and there, stay if we like it, leave if we don't.   The thoughts of not having to live by an alarm or deadlines is heavenly.  Sundown and cocktail hour seem to be the priorities of most cruisers, which sounds perfect.  :D   

Power versus sail.

 Ok, I have some bias here.... But hear me out.  :)

I am a licensed mariner, I deliver boats.  Most of my experience is with sail, but frankly many trips I have made wind up being motoring or motor-sailing trips.  I have run boats that burned the entire 80 gallon tankage the boat I am posting this from (s/v Emerald Tide) in less then 2 hours!

Diesel here in the Bahamas is 5.78 a gallon (just bought 19 gallons this afternoon).  I have paid over $8.  Gasoline is typically more expensive in the islands, even if it is inexplicably slightly less in the US....

Now, Faith (at 26', and fully loaded less then 8,000#) burns almost as much gasoline for an hour of running her 6hp gasoline outboard as Emerald Tide does with 24,000# and 56hp diesel.  The big difference is Faith does not require I start her motor all the time.  I once cruised the Bahamas for a month without starting the motor at all....  I burned less then a gallon of gas sailing every day....  What I did burn I put into the small Honda generator!

More in the next post....

When I first read your post, I did a quick survey of the cruising boats anchored here at Marsh Harbour. 

There are about 40 boats.....  I will talk about other things in a bit, but just considering the question of power vs sail there are 2 power boats.  That may be a little low, typically I might see 10-15% of the boats in an anchorage as strictly power boats.

Cruising on a power boat is feasible, and many folks do it.  Some transition to power after sailing for years, finding the power boat more manageable.  That said, there are two very very different types of power boats (arguably more, depending on who you ask)....  Ok, lets break it into 3 groups.

First, many of the boats you are likely seeing for sale are "displacement" "plaining" and "semi-displacement".  Cats mess everything up, so we will deal with them separately.

Without going too far in the weeds, a sailboat is a "displacement" hull, no matter how much horsepower you apply she is only going to go so fast.... Operating a "displacement" hull requires far less fuel, and takes place at lower speeds. 

Moving an object over water is very efficient at slower speeds.  No matter if you choose sail or power, you will likely end up "seeing the world at the speed of a riding lawm mower". :)

I can use 2 fingers to slowly move a very heavy boat at the dock...  Slowly.  The faster you want to go, the more power it takes.. There is no way around this. 

A trawler, or a sailboat will be limited in speed by the length of her waterline.  Displacement hulls not only are more efficient, they tend to ride better at anchor and carry significantly more weight without detriment then a plaining hull.

I once moved a Marine Trader trawler, it was 34' long heavy and would burn about 3/4 of a gallon of diesel an hour at 5.5knots....  Emerald Tide at 42' long, burns about 1/2 a gallon of diesel at that speed.  Neither will do over 7 knots without using significantly more fuel...

To go faster,  you need to get the hull to "climb over" her bow wave.  This takes a lot of power, and you have to make the boat effectively "float" partially out of the water.  Think of a water skier, at low speeds they drag through the water, but once they get "up" they go much faster and it is actually easier to hold on.

You will not often encounter a plaining hull cruising, and if you do they are spending a lot of money on fuel.

Be careful, many folks have bought something like a "Sea Ray" and found the fuel bills kept them at the dock.  While there are exceptions, I  dare say that if you are reading this site you are not likely going to be well served by a plaining hull.

Semi-Displacement hulls do not fare much better, being a compromise....  Moving faster, but burning more fuel. 

My recommendation would be for a displacement power boat, sailboat, or those pesky cats,,,,

Sail vs power.. Continued.

  I am often amazed, as I travel around, at the number of people who do not seem to recall what those long poles and bits of fabric are for!  The truth is many sail boats are often used as motor boats.

  There are good reasons for this.  It is easier for most to go into a harbor under power...  Likewise to dock, or to anchor.... Or raise anchor.  Many have to run their motor every day to charge batteries or to cool refrigeration.

  So, it is easy then right?  Just get a power boat!  ..... Not so fast.

First, the obvious....

  Sailboats use this really great fuel... Free, and accessible most everywhere...  It can be harnessed to move the boat, in generally most directions, but pretty much anyone. 

  Sadly, Sailors are liars.  We often make it sound like lots of hard work!  We invent our own language, often used to baffle and confuse people and then make it sound like pos-graduate physics when we explain how it works.....  Sometimes it is innocent, just using strange terms makes it hard to understand.... Other times I hear folks who seem to want to make themselves sound like something special because they

"pinched up hard on the wind, flying their #2 and Sta-sail with a double reefed main in 20knots until they had to fall off 2degrees to improve their VMG and SOG while keeping their COG... Until they had to jibe....."   

It really ain't that hard.  I have introduced many folks to sailing...l any idiot can make a boat go through the water... Just to prove it, I do it most days.  ;D

Sailing need not be hard, and frankly has gotten easier in the last couple decades.  Sails that just roll up when not in use have made life easier, and great inventions like winches that allow you to use one hand to raise sails....   Lots of good things happening to enable sailing by anyone.

A smaller boat, requires smaller sails... And less gear to maker her go.  Emerald Tide, as big as she is, can be safely sailed by one person and easily so. 

I would love to take your two out for a sail, it is really not hard to learn the basics.

I know I am over posting to this thread, sorry for all the info / opinion.

Sail power helps avoid those stunning fuel costs and gives you more freedom.  Fuel is expensive, and engines are hard to maintain well enough to be 100% reliable...  Parts are expensive, and unless you are particularly handy finding someone to repair a motor in a distant port (or not so distant!) is problematic at best, and can be impossible.  Economic and political uncertainty can quickly upset a cruising budget centered of fuel.

Sail gives you options.  You can do a lot of things under sail!  With practice, you can learn to even go without a motor all together. 

Two identical boats, one with sail one without... (Some designers did this) the sailboat will often have a better motion and be more comfortable underway or at anchor... This is an important consideration.

One "dirty little secret" some discover when they move to powerboats is that the motion at anchor is often so much more uncomfortable that they are forced into expensive marinas to get a good nights sleep.... 

That factor alone can make it much harder to cruise on a budget!

I do not like cats. 

There, I said it.  :D   Looking around, I am increasingly in the minority!  Cats are everywhere!  Cats, (ok, really I should say "multi-hulls" are really taking the lions share of new boat sales.  catamarans and that weird creature the tri-hull have found a devoted following.  They go fast.... They operate efficiently under sail or power.. They have less wetted surface area, and can almost plane....  The Americas Cup last year was the most amazing thing I have ever witnessed!  Those "cat people" love to point out how wrong I was..l and I was.  NO monohull race can ever match what I saw in San Francisco Bay last year.

I do not like cats.

They sail flat, they ride well at anchor (although can have a weird snap motion in certain conditions)...  They have lots of interior room, huge saloons with lots of light...

A cat will go faster under sail, motor, use less fuel....   I used to say "yea, but they can flip over and not roll back upright!"  The problem is that while I am still right to say that, many have circumnavigated and a large majority of them sail safely over seas I never would choose to venture out onto....  Those Cat People would also point out that while they do not self right, they also are less likely to sink if they capsize.... And they are right.

A magazine article a couple years ago (2010?) said cats took 40% of the sales into the charter fleet for the year.  Looking at the Moorings Base where I bought fuel today, I believe it.  I saw many many cats in the Virgin Islands last year.

I don't like cats.

They are (to my eye) less attractive, and many are even ugly.  I won't say which ones, since I have better manners.... But I have heard it said "life is too short for an ugly boat"

I don't like cats.

But they are easy to handle.  I did a sea trial on a big Cat built in South Africa.... Twin screws mounted 18' apart made that thing an absolute joy to turn and to dock....


Cat are also typically expensive....  Although some older, smaller designs like the Gemini are not too pricy.

Just in case you did not get the clue, I am not much of a fan...l but like any opinion I may be wrong, and reserve my right to change my mind.    ;)

Ok Pat,

  I have gone on and on... I still have more to say!  I suppose 10 posts to your thread is. Bit overwhelming.  I suspect others will proof read this for me, and point out my errors..  I have a bunch more to write, but will refrain for a bit.

  Very best of luck to you both!  I think I have crew lined up (finally) for the trip back up from the Bahamas, I have a had a great deal of difficulty this year which is surprising given how blasted cold I understand it had been back in the US this winter....   Anyway, would love to meet you both and discuss some of this if our paths cross.  If not now, maybe "out there" some day.

Fairwinds!

Ah but Craig- please don't compare the cruising cats you see ( we used to call them "Roomarans") with a sleek, clean lined multi hull.

Worlds of difference

My Cross 35 sailing offshore in the Atlantic. note- I LOWERED the cabin roof line 3 inches

S/fAith (Craig?)   So you don't like cats nor the cold. I know a couple who are adamant about monohulls and will probably drown the next person who tells them they should get a cat to accommodate their 3 year old and newborn twins. I'm understanding more and more about everything you have talked about. I had no clue I would get this kind of feedback, and it's so cool you guys would take the time to talk to me. :)
As for the cold..I'm with you on that one.
Gotta go...work time.

I'm one of the few people around who has cruised and lived aboard both a cat and several different monos--I'm on my eighth cruising sailiboat! Pluses and minuses like most things in life. Cats have shallow draft, which is a very underrated feature--opens up four times the anchorages, and makes coastal cruising much less stressful along the shallow East Coast and in the Caribbean. It is like night and day when coastal cruising. Many times I was tucked up in some three or four foot spot during a big blow listening to the rest of the cruisers out in the harbor on the radio dealing with dragging boats and an uncomfortable ride. But, cats are not as good load carriers for their length, and virtually every long-term cruising cat I see is drastically overloaded. When overloaded they don't sail nearly as well. Down in the southwest Caribbean I spent three months cruising in company with two other families: one on a 42-foot French cat, one on a 54-foot mono, and us on a 38-foot motorsailor. We never arrived in port more than a few hours after the leaders, even after a 200-mile passage. Sometimes we were the first in because we could motor comfortably in rough conditions for long periods of time. Our average speeds were within less than a knot of each other. I remember one very rough night offshore when we gradually overhauled the cat and passed her slowly due to the rough conditions with the wind nearly on the nose. None of us were racing, and none of us had particularly fast boats, and when cruising you often choose the most comfortable route and point of sail rather than the fastest. The space on cats is great, but it is too easy to fill them up beyond their load capacity unless you get a huge one, and then they are like trying to drive a tennis court around the harbor and marina. In New England and some other places there are almost no dock spaces for cats, and they charge twice as much. There are some shallow-draft monos designed for offshore work and they are capable, but they have gone out of style. You can still find boats from the 60s and 70s with centerboards and shallow keels, but they are getting old. It's funny, because that type of boat was considered very American. The famous race boat Finisterre was a keel-centerboarder, and she was cruised and sailed everywhere. Beautiful too. Can't find many boats like that anymore for some reason.

Double ++ on not getting a boat with a draft over 6 feet or a stick above 62 feet to the top of the antenna. Theoretically, you can take 65 feet up and down most of the East Coast, but there are many bridges that frequently don't offer more than 62 feet.

Quote from: s/v Faith on March 10, 2014, 10:24:54 PM

   Sadly, Sailors are liars.  We often make it sound like lots of hard work!  We invent our own language, often used to baffle and confuse people and then make it sound like pos-graduate physics when we explain how it works.....  Sometimes it is innocent, just using strange terms makes it hard to understand.... Other times I hear folks who seem to want to make themselves sound like something special because they

"pinched up hard on the wind, flying their #2 and Sta-sail with a double reefed main in 20knots until they had to fall off 2degrees to improve their VMG and SOG while keeping their COG... Until they had to jibe....."   

It really ain't that hard.  I have introduced many folks to sailing...l any idiot can make a boat go through the water... Just to prove it, I do it most days.  ;D

Sailing need not be hard, and frankly has gotten easier in the last couple decades.  Sails that just roll up when not in use have made life easier, and great inventions like winches that allow you to use one hand to raise sails....   Lots of good things happening to enable sailing by anyone.

Craig,

Enjoy a grog on me for saying this out loud!

Being a fellow whose mind is constantly looking for something to fixate on, I have had many different interests come and go over the years and for the most part have achieved good proficiency at most of them in what most consider record time.

Being a research hound and having a good memory helps,  but the biggest factor is the classic 80/20 rule.  Regardless of your area of pursuit, it has been repeatedly proven to me that out of everything there is to know roughly 1/5 or 20% of it is fundamentals/critical knowledge/skills.  Isolate and master that 20% and you will be roughly 80% proficient.  The remaining 20% proficiency is not to be scoffed at and is what separates the true masters from the enthusiasts, however that mastery is hard-won as the investment of time and resources becomes a case of ever diminishing returns (acquiring the remaining 80% of knowledge/experience/skills to attain an additional 20% in proficiency).

Of course the downside in this over-simplified learning curve is that when one is lazy and shiftless such as myself, you reach middle age being able to hold your own in a wide variety of conversation  but not being regarded as an 'expert' in anything.  

Anyways - back to sailing.  Bottom line is Craig is absolutely correct.  Prior to buying Carita my sum total sailing experience was two dusty vintage books from the local library, a 3 hour couples lesson on a 14 ft dinghy and joining some friends for a Sunday morning sail on their Tartan 34.   Upon returning to the dock after that sail my wife and friend nudged me over to the slip where Carita was for sale and my avatar photo was taken the following Saturday - I may know nothing more than the most basic fundamentals, but I'm sailing!

It's easy to learn to sail, but takes time and experience to develop the seat-of-the-pants cruising skills. Things like anchoring, reading the weather, and boat handling during less-than-ideal conditions depend on more than book learning and training. So, take you time and work your way up slowly. Also, starting smaller or cheaper makes this learning curve easier, and you never know if you'll like the lifestyle. I've met folks that it just didn't work for them, even though in some cases they cruised for quite a few years, and I've met some others that had barely started and they acted like old salts.

Quote from: Kettlewell on March 11, 2014, 10:03:25 AM
It's easy to learn to sail, but takes time and experience to develop the seat-of-the-pants cruising skills. Things like anchoring, reading the weather, and boat handling during less-than-ideal conditions depend on more than book learning and training.

:D  I first set foot in a sailboat in 1957- A plywood Penquin.

I'm still learning

ok, monohull it is, but want a wide beam, 10 foot or so.  There are so many to choose from. Any particular make/model any of you would avoid?   We will probably need a dinghy as dockage may not always be affordable or available.  Any recommendations on that subject? 
Thanks again, Kettlewell, Charlie and Craig. 

Dinghies?? Now THERE's a volatile subject  :D And for sure, you'll need one

I've used both hard dinghies, and inflatables. Currently I'm using a small plywood dink that I  built last year. Before that I was using an inflatable with a small  outboard.. I really liked that one, but my ex now has it.

The small rowing dinghy is fine in most places stateside. but for overall cruising, I'd choose ( and will again)) an inflatable.

My hard dink is 6 foot 6 inches, which is fine for just me. Tehani is too small to bring a dinghy aboard, so I tow it. It's been towed all over the place, many many miles. You tow with the understanding that the dinghy is expendable- if the weather REALLY nails you and the mother ship is in danger, the dinghy gets cut away. I also towed the small (7'6") inflatable. Close now to 10,000 miles of towing, with three bad instances, all inshore, all within an hour of each other, and all my own fault.

If you are in  an area where you'll be snorkeling, or in areas where it's a long row to shore, the powered dink is really nice.

But if you don't mind rowing, sometimes a good distance, the hard one works too. Many use nothing else.

Many also use small dinghies with sail rigs, but that an extra discussion in itself.

As to the inflatable- for long term use, don't even consider anything but Hypalon. PVC dinghies are much cheaper, and much shorter lived in constant sunshine.

The choice is really up to you, but overall, I think the inflatable with an outboard has the edge

Couple pictures-

First me rowing the inflatable- Achilles, wooden floor 7'6", bought from Defender Industries. I used a 3/3 HP Mercury 2 stroke on it also

Second, the hard dink I built last April. 6'6" MiniPaw from B and B Yacht designs.

I have a inflatable with a 5 hp outboard 4 stroke. This one now is my second inflatable. I also had a wooden rowing dinghy that Charlie had built.

Rowing is great exercise but I would not depend on one to get me back to the boat when the weather goes south. My first inflatable got to where it wouldn't hold air from oyster shells cutting the bottom. If I had the money a hard bottom inflatable is the way I would go.  I wouldn't go any smaller that 9'. Mine is 8' and I feel with 2 people and gear is going to be cramped.

Thanks  Charlie..Just wondering what you do with your dinghy when you are docked. I've heard they are often stolen. Could that bebecause of location?
Grime, do you also tow your dinghy?

A dinghy is an absolute must-have even if you mostly stay tied to the dock--you will eventually have to anchor someplace you want to go and then what do you do without a dinghy? There are a very few places with regular launch service to and from shore, but they tend to be very busy yachty harbors like Annapolis or Newport. Most cruisers use their dinghies constantly, and most (probably 95%) use the largest inflatable they can stow with the largest outboard they can handle. We have used a 9'6" Achilles inflatable with an 8HP 2-stroke Johnson for about nine years now. It is just adequate for a family of four and most would want more boat. However, with one or two onboard we can plane and cover some good distance quickly. Many anchorages outside of the USA require a fairly hefty dinghy trip to get around. Often you don't want to anchor within easy rowing distance of shore or town for various reasons: heat, noise, dirt, bugs, a few places thieves, etc. Putting a little distance between you and shore is about the best theft deterrence there is.

In the past I have towed mine with a single line. Now I use a bridle with a float. I keep my outboard on a motor mount on the stern rail and use a trolling motor most of the time to get the crew to land for a doggy potty break. Here at the marina I keep mine covered. I do  plan to bottom paint the help keep the barnacles off.

I would think that a bicycle lock would work at most docks.  

Dinghy theft is only a major issue in a few areas. In New England hardly anybody locks their dinghy, even when leaving it someplace for weeks with the motor on it. In Maine you will see lots of hard dinks and people row more, but virtually every harbor has a dinghy dock or at least a wharf of some sort where you can tie up securely and nobody cares. For that matter, in Maine I would guess 50% of boat owners don't even bother to lock up their big boats when going ashore. I remember one Mainer telling me I was nuts to lock up my cabin when gone because then nobody could get onboard to check things if they noticed a problem! North of Florida I hardly ever lock my dink, whether ashore or trailing astern. The further south you get the more dinghy theft, but they are usually looking for the motor. It is bad enough down in the Caribbean that most cruisers pull their dinghies up onto deck or at least hang them from a haliard alongside over night. I did this and I also cable locked the dinghy and motor wherever I went. You can tell a Caribbean cruiser because they will have a long coiled heavy cable and sturdy locks on their dink. Florida is a mixed bag--I would lock it many places, but others I wouldn't worry too much. In any case, you need a dinghy, you need hefty locks and cables, and keep your ears tuned to the local grapevine about the situation. If everybody is locking at the dinghy dock, lock up. If everybody is hauling their dinghy out at night, haul yours. Also, paint your motor some obvious and bright color so that it doesn't look brand new and so it sticks out like a sore thumb in the harbor.

Down here if it aint locked its gone to Mexico in a heart beat. People here lock their car just to pump gas. Then there are those that wont steal anything just want to see what you have and will board your boat for a look see.

Several years ago, prior to heading out for an extended cruise of the Bahamas a friend gave me some advice.

I had a hard dingy I was planning to use, I had been through several dingies when I settled in a hard dingy.

His advice?  "Make sure I have a plan for how I am going to get an inflatable, once I decided that the hard dingy was not going to work out"  ;D

He was right.  I like hard dingies for somethings, they row much better then inflateable s do, and they can be sailed which is a lot of fun.  However, they are harder to get into from a high dock, tougher to load down with groceries, and with some exceptions they do not handle rough seas and surf landings like an inflatable.

View the dingy as part of a system.  Marinas are expensive (I hate to stay in them, and avoid them).  Good ground tackle (a good anchor, I like the Manson Supreme, and a healthy length of chain) are expensive but pay for themselves in the nights you pay nothing for mooring over paying big bucks for a marina.

The dingy is part of this system, as it is what allows you to easily go back and forth to shore and carry all the stuff you need to carry.

Your dingy is your car.  A small rowing dingy, or a kayak might be like a moped.... You can get to the market on it if the weather is ok, but a car is better. 

Emerald Tide has a Carib RHIB, that is a rigid hull that makes it into a kind of boat that combines a hard dingy with an inflatable.  It is a great boat, and hands down the absolutely most common choice for the Bahamas and Caribbean.  The problem is that it is; expensive, hard to stow, and somewhat heavy.

Emerald Tide carries the dingy on davits, these are so easy to use and make life easy...l but they are hard to find room for on smaller boats.  I have seen 32' boats with davits, but anything much smaller then that would be hard pressed to deal with the extra weight aft.

On Faith, I either Tow an inflatable with a plywood floor, or stow it on deck (best not to tow a dingy offshore).

Others either like or hate options like the "Porta-boat" that folds up flat when not in use.  There are great threads here on pretty much any kind of dingy you might like to carry.

Whatever you choose, you will want to be comfortable with it.  You will be using it a LOT! 

A great thread to read through;


    Topic: Show me your little Dinghy / Tender / what have you....  (Read 41232 times) (http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php/topic,865.0.html)

Another one on inflatable dinghies;

Topic: The Inflateable Dingy thread.  (Read 5990 times) (http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php/topic,622.0.html)

Personally, I love hard dinghies, and I enjoy rowing too. Get the right one and you will be able to get ashore in any weather safely that you might want to go ashore. I lived aboard for 12 years straight at one point and for many of those years I rowed ashore, even when commuting to work every day. Rescued many people during those years whose outboards had died. But, 95% of cruisers prefer a large inflatable and big motor--most people don't like the exercise of rowing, and don't have a good way of hauling a hard dinghy and stowing on deck for offshore work--you can't tow a dinghy across the Gulf Stream. One thing we have found is nice to have is an inflatable kayak or two for leisurely paddling around the harbor. They are not the most practical for an every day dinghy, but they are a lot of fun and a great way to get some exercise. They are quiet too. One thing I like about cruising is the quiet out there on the water, and I always feel guilty firing up the outboard motor in a peaceful anchorage.

Quote from: s/v Faith on March 12, 2014, 09:28:29 AM
A great thread to read through;


    Topic: Show me your little Dinghy / Tender / what have you....  (Read 41232 times) (http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php/topic,865.0.html)

Another one on inflatable dinghies;

Topic: The Inflateable Dingy thread.  (Read 5990 times) (http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php/topic,622.0.html)


LOL- Boy Craig, you sure know how to have them kill a a morning. Those two threads will take a while to read ;D ;D

LOTS of info there.

Quote from: PattyLee on March 12, 2014, 04:04:08 AM
Thanks  Charlie..Just wondering what you do with your dinghy when you are docked. I've heard they are often stolen. Could that bebecause of location?
Grime, do you also tow your dinghy?

I used a 20 foot length of 7 x 19 stainless wire, with a nicro pressed loop on each end. Ran that through the handle on the outboard and around places in the dinghy. BUT-

I didn't use just the wire. I removed the core from an old dacron sheet, ran the wire through that, then seized the ends over the nicro press fittings on each end. Looked like a piece of line when in use, which did two things- prevented the wire chafing the dinghy, and dulled the heck out of anyone's knife who tried to just cut it.

Also, my inflatable had the registration numbers painted in big block letters on each side. Hard to hide.

Locked it up all over Florida, and also up the east coast. Sometimes in the Bahamas, sometimes not. Got told there no Bahamian would steal an inflatable- they want a boat they can dive and spear fish from that you don't have to worry about poking a hole in ;D  I don't think my tiny inflatable would have interested anyone but another cruiser.

I don't much bother with the small hard dinghy- it's so little, few are interested

Oh and as an aside- I've towed the dinghies everywhere- the hard dinghy too.. But the inflatable was towed twice across the Gulf of Mexico, twice across the Gulf Stream, twice across Tongue of the Ocean and all over the Chesapeake. Note- I NEVER, EVER tow the dinghy with the motor mounted. Well, maybe if I'm moving from a mooring to a pumpout dock or something like that- couple hundred yards. Otherwise it comes off.

The ONLY time I had trouble was coming in off the Chesapeake into  the Elizabeth River at Norfolk. Dinghy swamped three times in less than an hour in 3 - 3 1/2 foot following seas. Later, I realized it had gotten very soft and the bow was rolling under, instead of riding OVER waves. MUCH later, found a small air leak, fixed that, and solved the problem

This shot was taken while I was single handing the boat across the GOM. I was about 75 miles offshore at the time. Note that I had shortened the painter so the bow was very close to the stern of Tehani- it was ROUGH during the night, and gradually abated as the day progressed

And for the hard dink- here's a link to a video of it being towed offshore. This was about 25 miles out from the Matagorda Jetties, bound for Florida. Sheet to tiller system was steering. Had no autopilot at the time

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PhBRB1qkpk&feature=related

Whew, wow, lots of Info there from all of you. Thanks. Will save for future use.  We found a 30 ft Newport, totally refurbished, New everything..Just waiting to find out beam, draft and height. Been on the market for 4 days. Anyone know anything about Newports other than the fact they went out of business in the 90's?
Oh, not sure what year it is..doesn't matter. Haven't seen it other than pics. There are so many out there, prices are very reasonable, lot of people are taking offers. Lots of fun looking.

Will a boat with a five foot draft, 45 feet tall be able to cross Florida via Lake Okeechobee?

Quote from: PattyLee on March 12, 2014, 07:26:12 PM
Will a boat with a five foot draft, 45 feet tall be able to cross Florida via Lake Okeechobee?

Yes, no problem.  Your lowest bridge is 49'

Thanks ;D

Pat,

  If you are going to take a look, you might want to look at this thread first,

Boat buying tips thread on Sailfar.net (http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php/topic,1985.0.html)

Thanks Craig..sounds like we have a ton to learn. Since our boat will be our home, we have decided that we need something with a little bit more room, or we'll kill each other. Not really, but a 35 footer generally has a shower..and that may be a luxury for some, but we really really want a shower, and room for the grandkids once in awhile.  :)

A shower. Yes a shower is nice. On my boat there is a drain in the head floor and someone at some time used the head as a shower. I had to replace all the bulkheads and even the compression post because everything was rotten. If a boat has a shower like an RV all plastic that would be the only way I would go. You'll also need extra water holding tanks. The shower can drain to the bilge.

I know others will have better words than I do.


On another subject.

Has anyone heard from Dan? S/V Pretty Gee

Quote from: Grime on March 13, 2014, 09:09:46 PM
A shower. Yes a shower is nice. On my boat there is a drain in the head floor and someone at some time used the head as a shower. I had to replace all the bulkheads and even the compression post because everything was rotten. If a boat has a shower like an RV all plastic that would be the only way I would go. You'll also need extra water holding tanks. The shower can drain to the bilge.

I'm with Grime here. Unless it's on a BIG boat, a shower below decks is miildew waiting to happen- a CONTINUOUS battle against it.

I uses a pump up sprayer in the cockpit, and it has never been a problem, even when I had a wife aboard.

Pictured- my Pump up sprayer, built as a shower, sold by Duckworks. Also used  to rinse dishes, rinse sand off feet, etc

A second point- if you MUST have a shower, do not rig for pressure water- put some sort of small gravity tank up above, and use a hand pump to fill it.You would not BELIEVE how quickly a pressure shower can kill a water supply, particularly with kids using it ::)

Another good source of information on inspecting a boat.  Don Casey's book on "Inspecting the Aging Boat".  You might find it in the Library.

Thanks for the shower info..I've heard solar showers  work pretty well. Makes sense keep as much moisture out of the cabin as possible. We're good with that.
Thanks Grime for the info. :-)

Pat,

  It can be hard to know what will really work for you until you have some experience, but for a full time liveaboard some do like to be able to take A shower below.  I never missed it too much aboard Faith, but it is nice to have aboard Emerald Tide. 

  Taking the occasional hot shower ashore (many marinas will let you pay to use their shower even if you Are not staying there).

  Consider the "Elimination of Misery"  (http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php/topic,4195.0.html)in your decisions about what is important to the two of you in your quest.



 

Our current boat, a 38-foot motorsailor, is the first one we've ever had where taking a shower down below was even possible, but we almost never use it for the stated reasons. Even on this boat we always use a garden hose type spray head on a hose in the cockpit to take showers--not even hot ones most of the time. We do have pressure water, but having lived aboard for many years without pressure water we are still quite water conscious. With a squeeze type hose sprayer head you can get just as much or as little water as you need and then let go and it stops--saves tons of water. Traveling in warm weather areas we typically go swimming at least once a day, then take a quick rinse off in the cockpit for a shower. Some shampoos lather up pretty well even in salt water if you want to wash your hair that way.

ok, you have convinced Chris..I've done the shampoo, soap, jump in the ocean and then rinse of.  Works for me.
As a matter of fact, we will be revisiting a lot of boats we eliminated for one stupid reason or another because they either didn't have something we thought we could not live without, or they had something we didn't want (or know how) to deal with.
you have no idea how much we appreciate the feedback from all of you.
Ok, here's the big question for all of you.  If you were to start over, knowing what you know, what would be the one thing you would have done differently?
Thanks. Pat   

The one thing I would now do differently, having owned eight cruising boats, is I would spend less on the boat than I have and use the rest to equip it and go cruising more. I seem to never be able to resist the temptation to spend a bit more than I planned on the boat. I would also heartily endorse the go small, go now philosophy of the Pardeys. The most fun I have had on a cruising sailboat was on about 30-32 feet, which IMHO is the ideal size for a couple. Keep it small, keep it simple, keep it going.

Quote from: PattyLee on March 14, 2014, 07:25:40 PM


Ok, here's the big question for all of you.  If you were to start over, knowing what you know, what would be the one thing you would have done differently?
Thanks. Pat   

;D ;D ;D

Started earlier

What is IMHO? :-\
We have decided to get the boat now, sell our stuff, sell the house, and live on the boat. When the time comes that we can take off, we'll be ready. We'll have learned how  to sail by then and will probably be ready to buy a different boat.  :)

IMHO=Internet lingo for "in my humble opinion." Meaning, don't take it for Gospel, but that's what I think.

Started WAY ealier!

Patty
Don't rush. Take your time and find the right boat.

On your question. What would I have done differently.  ??? Purchased a RV but I live in a RV. ;D

Well, Kettlewell, thought it was some sort of boating term.. :P Had someone told me six months ago that I would be doing this, I would have thought they were crazy. We love to travel, and this is the most economical way to do it. I really really dislike cold intensely, so the islands on a boat is a pretty good answer to that problem.
Florida is not warm enough!!   ;D

Quote from: PattyLee on March 14, 2014, 10:30:03 PM

I really really dislike cold intensely

Definitely in your corner on that one. I don't even begin to wear shorts til it gets over 85 ;D

Dislike is not really strong enough though- try DETEST or ABHOR!!!

Charlie, Chris said we needed to have heat on the boat because I'll be cold. Ha! I don't plan on living anywhere that cold. Besides, we can get a little space heater if we absolutely have to.  Hmmm, May need one if we head towards New England one summer.
Charlie, do you stay in the Bahamas in the summer?

Some people don't believe me when I tell them this, but even in the tropics you will want things like a fleece jacket, a light hat, and gloves for night watches when sailing offshore. You may find that Maine is just too cold for you, even in the summer. Even when it is 90 degrees ashore (rare) the water will be in the 50s making a sail outside the harbor quite chilly. I can remember many sails that began with a sweaty row out to the boat baking in the hot summer sun, then a sail out of the harbor into a solid wall of icy fog with a temperature drop of 20 degrees or so, then an arrival in a warm and sunny harbor on the other side of the bay. The water gets dramatically colder north of Cape Cod, so you might end up finding the waters just south of Cape Cod more to your liking. I really love the Buzzards Bay, Marthas Vineyard, Nantucket area, and the water is warm enough for swimming in the summer. The wind is more reliable than north of Cape Cod too. The Chesapeake is too hot and humid for my taste during the summer, but many people sail there and it is a wonderful cruising ground. When snow birding you can move up and down the coast with the seasonal weather you prefer.

Quote from: PattyLee on March 15, 2014, 05:04:57 AM
Charlie, Chris said we needed to have heat on the boat because I'll be cold. Ha! I don't plan on living anywhere that cold. Besides, we can get a little space heater if we absolutely have to.  Hmmm, May need one if we head towards New England one summer.
Charlie, do you stay in the Bahamas in the summer?

Patty- I was in Punta Gorda Fla in Jan 2010, when it was 23 degrees. Didn't get over 30 for 10 days (resulted in a horrible fish kill all over SW Fl). A small cube type quartz heater kept the boat toasty. Ran it 24 /7 for the 10 days!! We had the marina (Laishley Park) put us on a meter and that time cost us 23 bucks- worth every penny :D

And no, I've never been in the Bahamas during the summer, nor in the Keys. Left the Bahamas end of June, and sailed up to the Chesapeake. Some do stay of course, but many come back to the states, or head WAY south for summer- say Rio Dulce in Guatamala ;D

Patty, I too wouldn't recommend staying in the Bahamas during the summer months due to the hurricane threat. There are just not enough secure hurricane holes for the number of boats over there, and some of the storms pop up very quickly. You might be lucky and go several years with no problems, but it just takes one to ruin your dream. Florida is better in that there are more places to hide, but still lots of boats to compete for the space. At least you can get yourself out of harms way fairly easily. Keep in mind that you have to move quickly and do it days before a hurricane is expected to hit because once the land evacuations are ordered opening bridges will stop working blocking the ICW in many areas. The Chesapeake and New England are not at all immune to hurricanes, but there are many secure harbors and the storms tend to travel through very quickly. I've had several direct hits while in New England but managed to survive them all, so far. Personally, I couldn't stand being cooped up in the Rio Dulce for hurricane season. It is a beautiful and interesting place to visit, but I have no desire to remain tied to the dock for six months. Instead cruise Panama and Colombia--once you're south of about 10 degrees latitude you're immune from hurricanes. The rainy season is very wet and thunderstormy in Panama, but the San Blas Islands are an amazing cruising ground.

Born and raised in Berkshire County, MA..and lived there for 35 years.  Rented a small house in Wells Beach, Maine for many years..took the kids back with spouses a few years ago, same little house. :0  Water still hadn't warmed up..lol.
I remember taking a small rowboat across the Ogunquit River to the beach..hot in the morning..it was snowing in the afternoon..and it was Labor Day!
We live on the east coast of Florida..been thru hurricanes. 
Had a very interesting morning today.  Only one marina in town has 6 feet of water..no liveaboards.  However..we can set our own mooring ball just out of the channel for free!!  And do whatever.  The Dock Master was really cool..told us how to do that.  He had a sailboat moored during the hurricanes and survived without a scratch. Just have to hope nothing runs into you. Dockage was $8.00.  Oh, there was another marina..dockage started at 11.00, plus tax, water, elec, no liveaboards.
There are liveaboards in Vero..dockage was 350., plus 100.00 liveaboard, elec, water, etc...
It is doable..

Moorings available in Vero also. Some cruisers called Vero "velcro beach" because many seemed to just stick.

Also moorings (and dockage) in Stuart at Sunset Bay Marina. They had liveaboards when I was there.

What town in east Fl? I have friends over there.

You should try anchoring out there for awhile before you plop a mooring in. "Just out of the channel" isn't good when living aboard. Not sure exactly where you are looking at, but knowing the area quite well I also know it is hard to get far enough out of the channel so that you are comfortable. Hopefully, you would be in a No Wake Zone or life would be miserable.

Charlie, we're in Sebastian.
The main problem in this area is the depth as you all know.  Kettlewell, I made a mistake..Just out out the channel is wrong.  It would be just outside the access channel that takes you into Squid Lips (used to be Fins) , just north of Hirams. There are five or six sailboats out there.
I've read about a state law that claims the land under the water is owned by the state and many places that offer dockage don't want to mess with it.
More than likely we won't have to live on our boat here, as we still have a house. Just wanted to know if we had that option.  So we hang onto the house a little longer, or rethink the situation and not sell it at all.

Hang on to the house for awhile. Get the boat go cruising for a few months and see if this is the change of life you really want to make. Then sell everything and sail off into the sunset.

Just above the bridge at Sebastion inlet, out on the island, there's a fish camp.. The West Coast Trailer Sailor Squadron has a gathering there once a year- the only one they have on the Fla east coast. Launch at the fish camp and sail south.

South of the inlet there is a spoil Island that Florida has turned into a camping spot- strictly primitive. I've joined them there twice in the last years. Would love to do it again- great folks, in small boats.

This pic was taken on that spoil island  a few years ago. Tehani was anchored just out of view.

I was there again last June with the 21 footer I sold when I got Tehani back

Please, please please, don't get like this- Taken from another forum-In the Exumas

"Our provisioning has reached a crisis stage, no milk for the espresso machine. We had bought a bit of the super pasteurized unrefrigerated milk in Highborne Cay but it makes a horrible morning latte. Adderly's Store in Black point had only soy milk, this is better but still a poor substitute. I tried some powdered concoctions with equally dismal success. I now have a greater appreciation for the mariners of old: hard tack, salt pork, and no lattes - a hard life."

Thanks Grime..Good advice.
Sebastian Inlet and surroundings are beautiful. Gorgeous pic  Charlie.
Population in Sebastian was 5,000, 25 years ago when we moved here. Now there are 25,000.  Time to go.
Stovetop perc, extra glass tops, and Folgers and we're ready to go.

That's a nice area, particularly if you have shallow draft. I've had some great sails up and down the Indian RIver. Still, it's really exposed out there for leaving a boat long term, with or without you onboard. Vero Beach mooring field would be the logical place to check out if you wanted to live aboard.  Since I believe it is first come first served you could get a place in there during the off season (the summer), and have a decent hurricane hole. Lots of folks love Vero, and I know cruisers who have left from there to sail around the world, then went back there to live. Parts of Florida claim they own the underwater land, but often they are mistaken. There is actually a Florida law prohibiting the regulation of anchoring in most locations, and there is another Florida law that holds the waters of the state are to be equally shared by everyone and should remain open to navigation--anchoring is considered a normal part of navigation. A mooring is technically nothing more than a very large anchor. In fact, if I were to create my own mooring in a place with few other moorings around a very effective way of doing so would be to lay out three large Danforth anchors in a star pattern connected to a big swivel and from there a line going up to your boat. It would be far more effective than the typical mushroom or dead weight mooring.

It is not our intention to stay here and live on a boat, at least for the long term.  We are just "getting ready" for when we can take off.  I can't leave my dad.  my siblings don't want him, so we have obligations. I would have a major case of the guilts, so this is the hand I've been dealt for the time being. I have to work for another year anyway, for SS to kick in. Chris will be eligible for medicare next year, but I won't.  Lots of stuff to deal with, but we could still get a boat, fix it up, learn how to sail, sail on weekends and vacations..and pray we have no hurricanes. Are we crazy?  Probably.  People thought we were crazy when we sold our house, quit our jobs, packed up a truck with 2 little kids and moved here 25 years ago: nowhere to live and no jobs. We made it!
enough of the drama..
WE have happy feet ;D ;D

Kettlewell , Again, thank you for your expertise.  We really appreciate all of the feedback we have received from all of you here.  :)

Sounds like you are embracing the now, which is a great attitude to have. It will be a perfect time and place to find a smallish and shallowish sailboat and to learn to sail, fix things, keep it safe, etc. I can remember those early days in my sailing life as some of the best. We had no money so bought an old 17 footer with a tiny cabin, no working motor, and nothing in the way of equipment. Sailed it all over southern New England in all sorts of weather because I usually couldn't take a vacation until late October. Despite the lack of an engine we went to places like Menemsha, Cuttyhunk, and Lake Tashmoo. Tacked in and out of the Cuttyhunk channel to the inner harbor. Went back and forth from a mooring in Newport harbor many, many times under sail or towing the boat with our rowing dinghy. We had a too small crummy anchor so I learned to anchor well with what I had. Taught us a lot about boats and boating and we had a ton of fun!

Kettlewell, I think you are definitely on to something there..learning on something small, decide if this is what we want to do long term. Going to look at a 30 footer on Wednesday..I know, it's not really very small..but I feel pretty good about handling something that size.  Besides, the price is reasonable, I think. We'll see..there are lots to choose from, but if we can keep it local, will eliminate transport costs.  Just don't have the time right now to bring anything long distance ourselves. It's all very exciting!!  ;D

How goes the search Patty?

We looked at a 30 ft Hunter in very good shape, well cared for, etc, price was right. However, I quickly discovered I have a few physical limitations navigating on the small vessel.  So we are rethinking our options..
We will definitely continue our search for what will fulfill our needs.  Still picture ourselves sitting on the deck, rum in hand, watching the sun go down somewhere warm.  :) It's all good.
We may have to look into getting a trawler..now before you all ban me from this site, hear me out. We still want to be out there, we don't want a go fast boat, we don't want to cause disturbing wakes and tick off the sailboat owners...We would prefer sailing..have done several windjammers..I know,, it's not the same either. So we will do what we can with what we have to work with.
You guys are great, have taught me so much.  Will keep you up to date with our search, which is slowing down at present due to life getting in the way. Heading for St Martin in a couple of weeks for a week on the Sagitta, a 120 ft schooner with 24 passengers..sister ship of the Diamant out of Grenada, a 12 passenger, 100 foot s/v.  It works for now.

Quote from: PattyLee on March 25, 2014, 07:49:03 PM

now before you all ban me from this site,

Not at all.

I can't speak for everyone, but for myself I say do what works for you to follow YOUR dream.  "The best boat is the boat you have" works for power boats, too.   ;)

Quote from: Captain Smollett on March 25, 2014, 09:23:06 PM

Quote from: PattyLee on March 25, 2014, 07:49:03 PM

now before you all ban me from this site,

Not at all.

I can't speak for everyone, but for myself I say do what works for you to follow YOUR dream.  "The best boat is the boat you have" works for power boats, too.   ;)

Absolutely.

And life does have a funny way of getting in the way of dreams- or changing them.

Good luck and don't go away

Quote from: PattyLee on March 25, 2014, 07:49:03 PM

And life does have a funny way of getting in the way of dreams- or changing them.

Hit the nail on the head with that one Charlie. You know what I mean.

Hi Patty, Not sure what your budget range is, and you may already be leaning toward a trawler, and although it's larger than the standard Sailfar range in length and especially displacement, you might find it interesting to take a look at this Westsail 32. It looks beautiful and with tons of character, and they are quite roomy and seaworthy. Sailfar members Woody & Rachel have one in Texas that they are restoring, and that Charlie has also seen.

http://daytona.craigslist.org/boa/4344426186.html

Thank you all for the continued support.  It's funny, but as we're looking at the Hunter 30, I thought "how blah", no character. Jim ME..loved the pic.
I'm not as flexible as I used to be and had a tough time going from the dock to the deck, and going below deck. It was a reality check..
I'm just glad there are more options.  :)

To re-post the quote that someone else may have already mentioned...

"Life's too short to own an ugly boat"

Adding some hand holds/grab bars/railings may help you in negotiating those areas. You may also find that a boat like this has a much easier/more stable motion at sea than a trawler. The constant pressure on the sails has a strong steadying effect.

Again, typically, few of us would recommend a boat this large, but it does seem to fit your description of at least some of your needs, so it may be worthwhile to look the boat over. IMHO, any time spent checking out a good boat will be a valuable experience. If it seems like a possibility, you may be able to arrange to be taken out on the boat, to get a feel for how it behaves under power and sail. Then compare that with a trawler. This Westsail has a 70 hp Yanmar Diesel Engine, which is a generous size, leaning toward motorsailer territory.

There is quite a spacious feeling from the sheer volume in one of these designs, which the photos capture to some extent. (I'll post a couple so that they will remain here after the ad expires).

Here are the specs and drawings...
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=1807

Was just aboard a Westsail today. LONG way down the companionway steps.

But Jim is totally correct on the hand holds. I added a pair on the over head of Tehani that are REALLY valuable.

No pics, but I'll see about getting some

I posted this in 09.....
these folks travel on a C-Dory 22...

NO JUDGEMENTS.....just get out and do it!!!!!

""RAMBLING

-----We were born with wayward souls. Unavoidable - we suppose it's from the immigrant genes of our ancestors. Our wandering spirits seek uncertainty. Driven by insatiable curiosity, we become restless after a few days or weeks in one place. There's an infinity of new places and experiences to savor. There are new people to meet, new foods to taste, new rivers to explore, and yes, another mountain to cross. Life is brimming with unending variety to discover and investigate. Thus, we are wanderers. A westward wind tugs at our souls, and we can't resist. A map is a siren call. One phrase has never crossed our lips - "I'm bored."

-----For us, a house and material things are anchors. We have cut those lines. We follow the lure and it has been a marvelous life.

-----Since we are land animals, lacking gills or feathers, most of our lives we had to live ashore. Those years we rambled mostly on land - by foot, car, plane, or on rails. We did, however, make excursions afloat. Vacation trips included river runs by canoe or raft on all the inhabited continents, or boat trips within or along all the continents.

-----We have roamed by water for extended times, sometimes years - afloat by kayak, canoe, raft, or boat. For two years we lived aboard a 20' sailboat and cruised her 13,000 nm along the waterways of America. During those years, we were ashore for only brief times to visit family or friends.

-----For us nomads, we are sometimes questioned -- Which lifestyle is preferable - afloat or ashore? The answer is simple - neither! We find we need both, since both offer what we are fundamentally seeking - change. And each offers unique opportunities to experience change.

-----Life afloat is filled with variety. Weather is always changing, the wildlife around us is seasonal and sporadic, and every anchorage and mile of water is unique and different. A lake is different from a river, and they both differ markedly from the ocean. Bays can be freshwater or salt, rocky or mud - and the wildlife and experience varies accordingly. On salt water, we rise and fall with the tide and we are offered different views as our 'home' swings on the tidal flow. The surrounding land may be beach, deep forest, or urban. On fresh water, current or winds swing us on anchor and the view from the cockpit is ever-shifting. Nomadic life afloat is continuous change.

-----There's also ample change living ashore. The perennial discussion of vacation at the mountains or the shore reflects the range of possibilities for a land-based nomad. But there's also prairie, tundra, the glories of spring above timberline, a dawn through the giant saguaros, the somber desolation of lava fields - an almost infinite variety of landscapes and views. Weather usually has less influence on land dwellers. Although the air may occasionally be violent, the land usually remains solid and stable. Aboard, weather affects both what lies above and below - air and water - and our floating home responds.>

-----There are overlapping experiences for dwellers on water and those on land. But the perspective is sharply distinct, whether one is looking to the shore or from the shore. It is this perspective that is unique to the edges of either environment.

-----Now we have the best of both worlds - land and water. Ashore, we live in an Alaska Camper, mounted in the bed of a Ford pickup truck. The camper lifts hydraulically, has all the amenities, and is insulated and lined with wood - living in our camper home is 'boaty' and we love the spacious windows and comfort. When we have lived ashore in the past nine years, it has been in our camper. It has been from the Atlantic to the Pacific, and from the Gulf to the Arctic Ocean. It has been our home in every state and province, and in all three countries in North America.



Consider the advantages of this home:

......Views of mountains, ocean, lakes, saguaro, tundra, or whatever scene we wish.

......If the neighbors are noisy, or not noisy enough, we move our home.

...... We are self-sufficient. We generate our own power and properly dispose of wastes.

......We can 'rent' a campsite in the most beautiful parks on the continent, or 'freedom' camp on public lands.

......There are no property or state taxes.

-----Afloat, we live in our other home - our C-Dory, Halcyon. This small power boat is easy to maintain, is economical and simple to operate. It is trailerable - easy to load, transport, and launch. Therefore, it can go virtually anywhere as long as the water is two feet deep and navigable. This home can also have views of ocean, lakes, rivers, mountains and any scene possible on the waterways of America. Hey, and did you know? There are over 13,000 miles of interconnected navigable waterways in the eastern half of the US. We can still move to or from noisy neighbors, anchor in lonely coves or tie up at marinas and resorts in some of the most beautiful waterfront sites on the continent. And, we are still marvelously self-sufficient.

-----With these two peripatetic homes, we have the perfect mode for nomads. We can comfortably sleep in either of our own beds and live in either home virtually anywhere on the continent or wherever there is navigable water.

-----Sure, we could have a 42'-foot motor home or a Grand Banks Trawler and have more amenities, but for us nomads, think what that would sacrifice - our most precious asset - mobility. We can find a parking spot at the grocery store or downtown, and we can travel 4-wheel-drive into the Beartooth Mountains. Or, we can trailer the boat into Voyageur National Park or a thousand miles north in a few days if it gets too hot on the Gulf or a hurricane is approaching. We can park in lonely, lovely spots on the Mogollon Rim or anchor in the upper reaches of the Rappahannock, where the 'big ones' will never travel. And all we've sacrificed is some living space.

-----Our first year with Halcyon, we traveled almost 7,000 nautical miles and have been in the Pacific, Gulf and Atlantic and many lakes and rivers between. Yet, we also were 186 days ashore living in our camper from coastal Texas to the Tetons in Wyoming, from the Cascades to the Appalachians. For wandering souls who love nature, we have had the best of both worlds - afloat and ashore.

-----Most importantly, we have been adrift.

My wife has a hard time getting on and off the boat. I move the boat as close to the dock as possible. She has no head movement so she is extra careful. With a 10' beam we have a lot of open room. She has one rule. Keep one hand on the boat at all time. That also means in the cabin also.

I know a couple that live on a Westsail 32 full time. Maybe they will chime in here about their boat.

Quote from: Frank on March 26, 2014, 11:27:02 PM
these folks travel on a C-Dory 22...

Watch out for Frank! Last fall we caught him messing around (http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php/topic,4087.40.html) on a big P*werboat in the Pacific Northwest, and as punishment had no choice but to banish him to the Bahamas for several months...  ;)

Quote from: Grime on March 26, 2014, 11:27:40 PM
My wife has a hard time getting on and off the boat. I move the boat as close to the dock as possible. She has no head movement so she is extra careful. With a 10' beam we have a lot of open room. She has one rule. Keep one hand on the boat at all time. That also means in the cabin also.

I know a couple that live on a Westsail 32 full time. Maybe they will chime in here about their boat.

Maybe later Grime- Rach was flying in tonight at 0100( Houston, then busing to Victoria) so I doubt they'll be online til late tomorrow.

I will definitely look into the Westsail 22, because I really want to sail! My lower back is fused, which is a wonderful thing because there is no pain. The handrails would definitely be helpful..especially when getting on and off..I don't want to be a burden to Chris and a worry every time I move.
Ah yes, change. I call it happy feet.  Gotta go. Always searching for something new and different. Seems I'm surrounded by people bored with the same old thing..but fear change and the unknown. I say bring it on. My coworkers envy me because we travel a lot..they don't really want to do it or they would be doing it.
OH!  We did find a local Marina that takes lovebirds..pricey..10 a foot..plus mandatory hurricane haulout and tiedown fee for $1000. Good for two haulouts. Annually.
Very successful during Francis and Jeanne in '04 .
Looking for a draft under 5, height under 48' .That puts more limits on options.

Jim, is the Camijo your westsail? 

Quote from: PattyLee on March 27, 2014, 02:59:27 PM
Jim, is the Camijo your westsail? 

No, of course I would have disclosed that it was. In many ways I wish that boat was mine, but it is outside of my budget range, and larger than I need currently.

Quote from: PattyLee on March 27, 2014, 04:17:03 AM
I will definitely look into the Westsail 22, because I really want to sail! My lower back is fused, which is a wonderful thing because there is no pain. The handrails would definitely be helpful..especially when getting on and off..I don't want to be a burden to Chris and a worry every time I move.

What Charlie says about it being a good way down the companionway steps is true, especially compared to a 25/26-foot sailboat. It carries a lot of that large volume down to and below the waterline, which displaces a lot of water, so that the boat has to be heavy and the cabin sole is relatively low and results in that change in elevation that the companionway steps have to span. Some boat designs extend the companionway bottom to the cockpit sole to minimize that change in elevation and to appeal to those that want the easiest path from cockpit to cabin sole. the Westsail 32, however, has a full bridge deck (like a full seat that wraps around the forward part of the cockpit sole/well, and then raises the companionway opening still farther above the bridge deck, as many of the most conservative designs typically do. Then if (when) you do take waves that fill the cockpit, the bridge deck and raised companionway opening prevent that water from draining into the cabin, and reduces the volume/weight of the water in the cockpit and effect on the boat trim. Many of the features of the Westsail 32 are designed for those extreme conditions that one may encounter on voyages. The boat being equipped with a windvane/self-steering gear is another such feature.

Do you need a boat design that is optimized to cross oceans? That is an open question. Again, I would rather have excess seaworthiness and not need it, than the other way around. In some aspects there is no real penalty for having them, in others, like the companionway height, there is a cost. Regarding that, it is a price that I would gladly pay. I have taken waves into the cockpit in lumpy conditions in coastal sailing, not far from shore.

We call the boat a Westsail 32, but even that is misleading, since that 32 feet is its length on deck (LOD) and the boat requires a considerable bowsprit to carry its rig and sail area, as many boats of these traditional designs do (and has a boomkin aft). So the boat has an overall length (LOA) that is getting close to 40 feet. If you rent a slip for it, that slip has to accommodate its overall length. so the Westsail is really 32 in name only. The most descriptive number for sailboats is displacement, and the Westsail's 19,500 pounds is revealing...

It may be interesting to compare it with classic bluewater boats of similar displacement (and similar overall length/LOA )...

Hinckley Bermuda 40
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=1650

Cape Dory 40
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=2191

Pearson Rhodes 41
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=3744

A Westsail 32 (and the above boats) are nearly 4 times the displacement of an Ariel 26, Meridian 25, Albin Vega 27 or Contessa 26...what I think of as the standard "small"capable cruising boats. So the Westsail 32 is a relatively large boat, by comparison.    

Again, given the requirements that you have discussed, I'm very comfortable suggesting that looking at this Westsail 32 will be a beneficial experience, even if you don't purchase the boat. It will become one standard against which to evaluate other boats that you will look at.

If you are seriously thinking about taking that plunge one way or another, and are considering a trawler in this price range (or higher cost), because it doesn't seem like any sailboat in that range could meet your needs, then I would definitely urge you to check out a boat like this Westsail as an alternative, among others.

However, buying a boat of this size and cost--even one that is a good deal--is a major investment and commitment.

As others have suggested (and I have in the past), the least risky scenario is to get a smallish sailboat. I favor one that is trailerable, which is a big leap in maximizing self-reliance, flexibility, and economy. As Adam wrote, learning to sail by doing, is much easier (and more fun) on a smallish boat. Charlie has his Meridian 25 setup on a trailer, as others do their Ariel 26s...boats in that design displacement of just over 5,000 pounds. I like the Cape Dory 25, which at 4,000 lbs and 3-foot draft
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=366
is even easier to trailer/launch/haul/rig and is still fairly seaworthy. The Compac 23 is an attractive trailerable micro cruiser
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=232
There are other designs that I'll follow up with (and maybe have already been posted recently...I haven't checked out all the links yet.)

As has been suggested, especially in this interim period where you have other obligations and may need to keep your house (or an apartment), you can do a lot of sailing and sheltered/modest coastal cruising and gain skills and confidence that you will take with you when and if you get a larger boat. You can experiment and do the trial-and-error method in a small boat in ways that you never could with a large boat. While you still have your house and all of its expenses, it is a big plus to have your sailboat and sailing costs put the smallest burden on your finances as possible. There are many costs involved in keeping, using, maintaining, and upgrading/improving a sailboat and trailer in addition to that initial boat cost. Especially in the initial years, erring on the side of keeping things smallish, simple and economical often seems like the most successful strategy.

I don't mean to discount what Frank had posted below. You may get to a point where you want to take that plunge, and as Grime has written, we cannot just presume that we have an infinite amount of time. Having a plan to start with a smallish, affordable boat and to do lots of sailing/small-boat cruising/and experience building for a few years, even 5 years, while taking advantage of opportunities to crew or charter larger boats, and looking at many boats to also build experience about what is out there and the costs (again to buy, equip, keep, maintain), so that when you may become ready to take that plunge, you have a much broader knowledge and experience base to draw upon, is what I would advise, in general (again, as others also already have).

When I started out in sailing, not only didn't I have the answers, but it took quite a awhile to begin to figure out through experience what the questions were.

Jim, where there is a will, there is a way.  Maybe even a handrail would work.  Daytona is just a couple of hours away, so will check it out. Only thing I need to find out is bridge clearance.
I like to think we are smarter now than we were 35 years ago when we first started out. We owe nothing! I have read about people financing boats, wrong! We did that years ago on a new 18 foot bowrider, mistake. We were young and foolish.

Quote from: Jim_ME on March 28, 2014, 01:50:43 AM


When I started out in sailing, not only didn't I have the answers, but it took quite a awhile to begin to figure out through experience what the questions were.

I first stepped my foot on a sailboat in 1957 ( a 12 foot plywood Penguin) and I'm STILL not sure I know all the questions, let alone the answers. :D

I think that's what makes sailing, and messing with boats so intriguing!! It's a never ending learning experience .

Couple of thoughts regarding vertical clearance.

* "Normal" aspect ratio has changed over the years.  The CCA-ish era boats tended to low aspect rigs (short mast, long boom) and the modern era has taller aspect rigs in general per LOA.

So, a 30 footer designed in the modern era will most likely have a taller mast than a 30 footer designed in the 50's or 60's. 

My Alberg 30 mast height is about 42 ft, and we've been under a 45 ft bridge several times.  Compare that to a Catalina 30, for example, which is 45'11" for the standard rig and 47'11" for the tall rig (http://www.catalina30.com/organization/specifications.htm).

* Cutters tend to have shorter masts for a given LOA.

The upshot of these two observations is that if vertical clearance is a criterion you must meet, and yet you want as large as practical hull-wise, older is more likely to fit your needs than newer and a cutter rig might solve a lot of problems for you as well.

In other words...a Westsail 32 sounds like a solid fit.   ;D

Quote from: PattyLee on March 27, 2014, 02:59:27 PM
Jim, is the Camijo your westsail? 

Camijo is a very nice looking boat from what I saw as it motor passed us,  someone needs to buy that boat, I have seen it several times but never with the sails up.

Patty have you looked at any catamarans?

While you are shopping take a look at a Island Packet 27 very nice boats.

They're not popular today, but in the past there were lots of small ketches that provide you with good sail area, a low center of effort, and lower bridge clearance. Our 38-foot ketch can just squeeze under the low bridge over the Okeechobee Waterway, which is a big plus, especially for someone based where you will be midway up the East Coast of Florida. There are some good, cheap, and relatively hurricane proof storage yards in there. Plus, the waterway is a fun trip. Check out the Allied Seawind Ketch for an example of a capable small ketch. An example of which was the first fiberglass boat to circumnavigate the globe. However, there are lots of boats under 32 feet that can clear 48 feet, and a sloop or cutter is a more practical rig on a boat that size or smaller. I owned a 30-foot cutter once and it was incredibly capable, though if I were to rebuild that boat for some reason I would have gone with a sloop rig. The cutter adds unnecessary complication, IMHO, for the benefit gained on a boat that size.

Quote from: Captain Smollett on March 28, 2014, 10:17:47 AM
Cutters tend to have shorter masts for a given LOA.
The upshot of these two observations is that if vertical clearance is a criterion you must meet, and yet you want as large as practical hull-wise, older is more likely to fit your needs than newer and a cutter rig might solve a lot of problems for you as well.
In other words...a Westsail 32 sounds like a solid fit.   ;D

I agree, and was going to write something similar last night, but it was very late.

From the Westsail specifications page (http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?CLASS_ID=1807) it gives the rig "I" dimension (from the point at the deck [not gunwhale top] sheer line that a line at the forward edge of the mast would extend to meet) as 44.00'. Eyeballing the keel draft (which is 5 feet) and comparing to the freeboard height at the mast looks to meet that "I" point on the deck scales at  about 3 feet. So the mast (excluding any antennas, etc.) height shown in this drawing is less than 48 feet. (appears to be about 47, but all this would be good to verify on each particular boat, especially with Westsail boats, since there were a lot of custom builds/completions. 

The cutter rig is not only shorter (as John writes), but it breaks the working sail area up into three parts, so each sail is smaller and easier to handle than a sloop rig (which would only divide it among two sails). Many of the jibs at the bowsprit have roller furling so its easy to reduce or furl it to shorten sail. A self-tending staysail makes tacking more convenient, especially short handed, and can be setup to reef down to its boom like a mainsail does, which is a lot more convenient than changing the headsail as the wind picks up.

A ketch rig has many of the same features, but some mizzen sail/booms extend over the stern into the space that the self-steering wind vane occupies, whereas cutter rigs do not. The two masts of the ketch adds a fair amount of complexity, and parts to maintain and replace, etc., too--yet are beautiful and popular rigs for many classic larger boats, although boats such as the Cheoy Lee Offshore 31 and Allied Seawind 31/32 are mid-sized that also have ketch rigs and are highly regarded. (Again, the Seawind 32, at 15000 pounds, is a larger boat, and hence has more working sail area than its length number would suggest).

I've sailed on a friend's Cape Dory 30 which had the cutter rig/boom-footed staysail/roller furl jib and it seemed like an ideal setup, especially for a couple cruising where one person would be sailing along while the other was off watch below. It is wonderful when you are in a solo situation where you are beating up a channel or into an anchorage, where you may need to make a series of quick tacks, and don't want to be distracted by tending sheets/winches for a headsail.

Quote from: Grime on March 28, 2014, 12:57:13 PM
While you are shopping take a look at a Island Packet 27 very nice boats.

I beat it would be a lot like our boat and with the wifes MS she does well aboard ours.


There was a 33' Glander Tavanua on ebay that just went for 3 k  it looked just as ready as my bout to cruise.  I have seen great deals on ebay. 

   

I wouldn't get too caught up in looking for the exact boat you want with the exact rig you want, as you don't know what you don't know, in a good way of course! It is easy to wander the forums like you are doing and listen to all of our "advice" and start to form an opinion when in reality at this stage you need a boat that is big enough, cheap enough, shallow enough, not too tall, and nearby. After that almost everything is a possible consideration, but not worth focusing on until the you find the boats that meet the "good enough" criteria. I've known a few people who spent a lot of time and money finding or building the "perfect" boat, or so they thought, and then discovered something basic was wrong with the whole picture, like the boat that has the perfect interior doesn't sail very well, or they hate the rig all the pundits touted. For example, I always wanted a cutter rig until I owned, used, and lived with a cutter rig for years--the gains under certain limited circumstances were not enough (for me!) to compensate for the losses much more of the time. Also, I never wanted to even try a ketch, and then the best boat I could find that met other criteria happened to be a ketch. Now that I've owned and sailed a ketch for nine years I appreciate them much more, and I might go for another, though they do have certain drawbacks.

Quote from: PattyLee on March 28, 2014, 04:30:32 AM
Jim, where there is a will, there is a way.  Maybe even a handrail would work.  

The Westsail 32 (and similar designs) may more than make up for any inconvenience of its additional elevation change at the companionway, by being exceptionally steady and stable while the crew is negotiating those steps.

For comparison, the Bill Tripp designed Hinkley Bermuda 40 (again, of similar size by displacement) also with a conservative bridge deck/raised companionway design, and targeted to mature/affluent owners (and with a pretty adequate level of interior quality), also has several steps (see photos).

I'm sure you've been perusing the local CL, where you will find better deals (caveat emptor) than through yacht brokers. Here are a few from your area that caught my eye:

http://treasure.craigslist.org/boa/4373649412.html
http://treasure.craigslist.org/boa/4371422723.html
http://treasure.craigslist.org/boa/4393292808.html
http://treasure.craigslist.org/boa/4381261186.html

Quote from: Mario G on March 28, 2014, 03:26:48 PM

Quote from: Grime on March 28, 2014, 12:57:13 PM
While you are shopping take a look at a Island Packet 27 very nice boats.

I beat it would be a lot like our boat and with the wifes MS she does well aboard ours.


There was a 33' Glander Tavanua on ebay that just went for 3 k  it looked just as ready as my bout to cruise.  I have seen great deals on ebay. 

   

I met Dooley Glander back in 1975. Drove down to the keys to look at a Glander 33. Nice boat, but quite small-no bilge at all- boat bottom is cabin bottom other than floor boards. Very well built hulls though. Have to be careful of other parts- most were owner finished.

:) Skylark has been posting boats for sale in the boat dis. section for the last few days, hes come up with some gems, (more than i can ever find) you might look at them and see if any are intresting to you.

Wow, so much info.  Ok, sent an email to find out bridge clearance on the Westsail 32..we really want to be able to go through the Okeechobee waterway. I'm hoping it will work, but wonder if it will be big enough..the Hunter 30 was way too small. I didn't like anything about it really. Glad we looked at it to get an idea of what we don't want.
I realize the larger you go, the deeper the draft, the higher the mast. So, we will spend some time looking for a good fit.  We are fortunate that we don't have to decide right away, that we do have lots of time.
Catamarans are out of our price range.
Thank you all for your suggestions.  We will definitely look into as many as we can. Will keep you posted on our
progress. This is harder than buying a house!!  :-\

Have you thought about center cockpit boats? 

Grime, we are looking at just about anything with a sail between 30 and 35 feet.
I'm kind of fussy..first I have to like what I see. Then look to see if the draft is 5 ft or less, bridge clearance is less than 48 ft. If size is good, May overlook curb appeal.  :)
The westsail 32 has been sold.   :(
I find we tend to look at the same boats over and over as they are listed in many different ways.  The best way I have found is by brand. I really like the looks of the ketches, and those with taller cabins with a wider walk around.  I'm sure I will need to sacrifice some of the things I would really like to have, like shade, dinghy Davit, place for the dog(that's a complication in and of itself), place for solar panels, am I asking too much here?  Also, some of the boats on the internet were sold over 2 years ago. Oh well..we are having fun looking. ;D

Patty,
I know of a Westsail 32 that has been on the hard and for sale for a couple of years. I know the owner. He's a over the road trucker and I'm not sure how to get in touch with him. The boat was listed with a broker. Bad thing is its over here in Texas and not in Fla.

I do know it needs to thing besides a good cleaning. One is a bottom job and the other is a thru hull fitting. He re cored the forward deck before putting it on the hard and going back to work.

If interested I'll see if I can get a number for him. I wouldn't go through the broker if possible.

David

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/pl_boat_detail.jsp?&units=Feet&id=2225695&lang=en&slim=broker&&hosturl=mustangyts&&ywo=mustangyts& (http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/pl_boat_detail.jsp?&units=Feet&id=2225695&lang=en&slim=broker&&hosturl=mustangyts&&ywo=mustangyts&)

QuoteI wouldn't go through the broker if possible.

If you can avoid the broker it will likely save you money, and in my experience the owners are often more forthcoming about the boat's real condition and more willing to deal. The broker is always trying to maximize the price. There are some great brokers that will help you find the right boat, but they are few. Even if you do have to start with the broker by all means try to talk to the owner directly at some point without the broker there--you often learn interesting things and you get a much better sense of what type of deal they are looking for.

Grime, thanks for the offer, really appreciate it.  Think we'll stick with boats here in state..there are plenty to choose from.
Also appreciate knowing about avoiding brokers. They only care about making a commission.
We can deal with the cosmetic kind of repairs, anything major at this point and we would have to pay someone else to do it. So, that is where we are today.  We have a lot to learn.