Figure I'll keep some tough topics coming....
In "most" boating relationships, the male wants the cruising life more than the female. I personally know of several exceptions...but generally this is the case. Some couples do very well "out there", others do not. Enjoying cruising means different things to different people.....everyone and every couple are different. It is hard putting 2 people together in a confined space that is often uncomfortable and keeping smiles on everyone's faces.
Philip Teese wrote a book 20 some years ago about finishing a little boat and sailing it. He praised his wife for allowing him to go. She didn't enjoy the boat. Fast forward and his 2nd book is written AFTER the divorce. In it, he met a fellow small boat sailor at a marina, they got to know each other and as the saying goes...the rest is history.
I'm not positive, but I think it was in Phillip's book that I read the line: "it is far easier to find someone that loves sailing and fall in love, than to fall in love with someone and try to get them to love sailing".
Relationships are difficult on land.....can be very difficult in the confines of a small boat!
Then there are the scenario's, like Philip, where the mate does not want to go!
Anyone want to share? Good or bad experiences, "how-to's", funny story's....whatever. This is a topic that most likely effects us all!!!!!
Relationships can be about compromises. I decided a long time ago that I would not "let" desire for sailing lead to divorce.
One could argue that a desire to go cruising or not is a symptom of larger issues. I refuse to believe that in most cases, people break up long term marriages over something this straightforward...it's too "pat." Too easy. Like, "He bought a Harley, so I left him." No, the seeds for dissolution had to have been sewn long before that.
All that said, for me, it helps to carefully define what my goals really are. I'm pretty sure my wife does not want to stand in my way of living the life/lifestyle I want to live. So, I have felt like I have owed it to her to be clear about what I want and where I want to go, and so far as is possible, include her in the 'grand plan' whether she sails/cruises with me or not.
An old timer once told me, while we were sitting in a jon boat watching a sail boat race, 'don't get into racing unless you want a divorce.' I took his point as the grander meaning...you cannot be married to two "wives" at the same time.
Again, I personally think relationships ending "over sailing" (or similar) are ending over far deeper reasons than that.
I'm hoping this thread is not singularly about "relationship ending"...but the difficulties and/or joys of relationships aboard AND the compromises made. There is no doubt that troubles ashore will be compounded within the tight confines of a small boat. Issues will most cetainly surface a lot quicker!!
That said, I see wonderful couples while away!! "Annie and Neville" or "LuLu and GiGI" come to mind. It would be hard to imagine one without the other. Compromise is certainly a required quality on land or away...there is no doubt about that. I truly admire how you and your family appear to not simply survive, but thrive being together on 30ft!
As I asked in the opener...good or bad, how-to's (you could ad advice!), funny stories...whatever.
Relationships effect us all ;D
Quote"He bought a Harley, so I left him."
Yes anyway, but if my wife did buy a Harley, I'd leave her. Edited to include: I guess I should mention that once when I had gone to live in Africa for a while to study music, while I was away she sold my 1971 Norton Commando and bought a refrigerator. Of course, every time I open the refrigerator....
After being married almost 40 years, my wife and I had one of the best times of our life together for 4 months of cruising from Mobile, Al to Penobscot Bay, Maine. We were together 24/7 in a Cheoy Lee 31 ketch, with only the very basics for comfort. We mostly anchored and provided our own food and entertainment. A few offshore passages of up to 7 days, tested our courage and endurance. We got along with less friction than on land, even though we are typically apart almost 1/2 the time due to work schedules on land.
I don't imagine we really know how to co-exist better than the average couple, or have any secrets for a good marriage. I think it's mostly chance, and familiarity.
I met a preacher once, who said every couple should be required to do a weekend canoe trip together before being married. I think that would apply to a sailboat cruise also.
Quote from: okawbow on May 03, 2013, 12:16:02 PM
We got along with less friction than on land,
...
I don't imagine we really know how to co-exist better than the average couple, or have any secrets for a good marriage. I think it's mostly chance, and familiarity.
I think being busy "surviving" helps, too. "Cruising" takes some work; you either work well together or you don't.
Debra Cantrell's book "Changing Course" is an excellent read (or I thought so). I specifically recall the part about both parties in the couple being 'invested' in the boat preps. One wife told of how her husband did ALL the work on the boat and she felt like just another 'gadget' aboard...nothing was "hers," she had no part in any decisions about how to set up things. This alone made her less will to go after the boat was finished.
Quote from: Porter Wayfare on May 03, 2013, 12:02:38 PM
Quote"He bought a Harley, so I left him."
...she sold my 1971 Norton Commando and bought a refrigerator. Of course, every time I open the refrigerator....
if my bsa 441 victor was traded for a kelvinator, I would not have been around to open the fridge door... ;D
"The Motion of the Ocean" by Janna Cawrse Esarey. And it's funny.
Quote from: SalientAngle on May 03, 2013, 01:10:00 PM
Quote from: Porter Wayfare on May 03, 2013, 12:02:38 PM
Quote"He bought a Harley, so I left him."
...she sold my 1971 Norton Commando and bought a refrigerator. Of course, every time I open the refrigerator....
if my bsa 441 victor was traded for a kelvinator, I would not have been around to open the fridge door... ;D
Heh, we all do stuff like that (we do, don't we? it's not just me?)..... I sold a really nice track prepped MINI to get a sedan so I could fit the significant other, her mom, and two daughters in the car..... we split 10 months later..
C'est la vie....
THAT'S one problem I never had. Tehani was definitely a team effort
I liked this little bit on the subject from Controlled Jibe's blog:
http://www.controlledjibe.com/2012/12/05/trial-by-fire-honeymoon-on-a-sailboat/
The second paragraph pretty much nails my personal experience. Anne & I basically began our relationship working on the boat and living aboard full-time, albeit seasonally. It's a different level of intensity and intimacy than your average relationship on land where there is just so much more space. When you add cruising to the mix, there's a lot of relying on the other person that can either strengthen or weaken the relationship.
2 1/2 years ago we had no clue what we were getting into. Others close to us thought we were nuts. Questions like how are you going to live like that were asked again and again. Well today we are still far from experts when it comes to cruising but when it comes to understanding as long as we have each other nothing else matters, we have that down.
I've said long before moving aboard that distractions and stuff get in the way of relationships and before moving aboard it was happening to us. The business was taking up more and more of my time and that was fine when we wanted to buy the stuff we really didn't need but thought it was what we did. It turns out all we needed was time to spend together and share our experiences. Is not being one what marrage is all about? Living where I know I can just reach out and touch or talk with out the use of the latest smart phone is what I wanted when we first fell in love and don't think it should change.
I think people should live on a boat before they get married, if they can do it whitout one being tossed overboard with in a year the bond should last a life time.
We are still working on it, but so far, so good ;D
Nothing to add, really, except that we both gave up our motorcycles when we committed to full time cruising.
Quote from: Vega1860 on May 04, 2013, 04:13:41 PM
We are still working on it, but so far, so good ;D
Nothing to add, really, except that we both gave up our motorcycles when we committed to full time cruising.
Multiple grogs !!!
Divorced. Was it that she didn't like (hated, actually) sailing? Partially; but only as it related to the bigger picture. She didn't like sailing; but didn't mind if I went so long as it wasn't on her time. From her point of view, it was always her time. So I rarely got to the boat (or any adventurin' at all, really), and became fairly unhappy. Different lifestyle desires were one of several issues that we simply couldn't come to an agreement on.
The new girl seems interested in sailing and travel (we just returned from a great trip to Costa Rica...yeah, the nomadic life is the life for me!), and I think is considering the whole cruising idea. She has been sailing with her step dad; but mostly day sailing as a passenger not as crew. My fingers are crossed that once I take her out on a few multi-day trips (I'm just not really thrilled with having my departure and destination having similar GPS coordinates) that she will get into it as much as I am. Regardless, from the outset of the relationship she understood that in a couple years I'm taking off over the horizon.
I learned the hard way that sacrificing one's dreams to please another just results in two unhappy people and no dream. That is a bad bargain.
Well, mine LOVED sailing, LOVED being on the boat. Is an excellent sailor, and a capable single hander.
And still split.
So I don't know how to add anything here.
except to say- ah well, such is life
Quote from: CharlieJ on May 04, 2013, 10:59:12 PM
except to say- ah well, such is life
Sometimes, we just have to trim the sails and go on. Can't hide from the wind.
Quote from: CharlieJ on May 04, 2013, 10:59:12 PM
. Is an excellent sailor, and a capable single hander.
I think thats where I'm lucky... mine doesn't thing she could solo sail. (I know she can)
Why don't you just get back together already. Sounds like you're going to anyways. At least I know you want to. Probably not going to find someone else to sand the bottom like that.
But what do I know. Maybe if I found a cool sailing chick she would be a hippy or something, then I'd be screwed.
I don't know. I know the relationship is supposed to be first, but then you give up your dream and nobody is happy as said above. So what do you do? Might explain the single 50 something's I see walking the dock. Is it better that way? You get to do whatever you want when you want, but maybe at the end of your life it gets lonely and you die alone and I can't say how that would feel. If you would lie down and think if all the amazing experiences you had and close your eyes, or get old and weak and sad because in your pursuit you threw everyone behind.
I know that I cannot help but to throw everyone behind because they hold you back and I am thinking maybe I am willing to take that chance. I'm still not sure. I guess it depends what kind of compromises you have to make to be with that someone. It's a tricky situation.
Quote from: northoceanbeach on May 07, 2013, 01:36:09 AM
So what do you do? Might explain the single 50 something's I see walking the dock. Is it better that way? You get to do whatever you want when you want, but maybe at the end of your life it gets lonely and you die alone and I can't say how that would feel.
For me, it's a distinction between
needing a partner and
wanting a partner.
There's a huge difference between being alone and being lonely.
I wish I could take credit for this, but it was something that Fatty Goodlander wrote. I thought it was really touching, and kept a copy, and I think it fits here. :)
***************************
I awake at first light. Next to me is another human being. She breathes in and she breathes out. I watch. And watch some more. Her head is a tangled storm of dark Italian hair. There is a curve of ass, a swoop of narrow waist, a mound of gentle breast. I look at her 56 year-old face, and smile. I know every line, each scar, every blemish. It is funny. We both grow old. But we also grow more? intertwined. Every wrinkle makes her more beautiful.
We lean on each other?now more than ever. We have aged at different rates. And, thus, as our physical real estate deteriorates, we both?literally and mentally?lean on each other to ever greater degrees. Our flesh is weak but our commitment is strong. Whenever one falters, the other is there.
Thought of one way, this inevitable aging process could make a person sad?or even drive one into the arms of greedy plastic surgeon. But I prefer to think of it the other way: that as my steps falter and my physical abilities diminish, my appreciation of my life-partner grows.
I love life. Dying is a part of it. Aging is a prelude. I embrace it all.
Sure, we occasionally snarl. I am often a jerk. She is no more perfect. But we?re happy with our velvet chains of family. She gave me her youth. She only had one youth and will never have another other? and yet she shared hers with mine.
She still laughs at my jokes. Yesterday I told her, ?As my memory dims, my conscience clears,? and was rewarded with one of her sexy growl-laughs.
Our daughter Roma Orion now lives in Amsterdam? and NOT because of the drugs! What could be nicer?
Thus I kiss my wife Carolyn as light as a butterfly?s wing on her sleeping forehead.
I am careful to not make a sound as I roll out of our tiny, toe-kissing vee berth.
Wild Card?s interior is not large nor plush. It is dim inside our cabin. The weak light favors our aging varnish, our tarnished bronze, our faded photographs.
I have found it is much faster to dust without my reading glasses.
If I woke her up right now and we both ran to opposite ends of the boat?we?d still be within 38 feet of each other. Most of the time?the vast majority of my life?I?ve spent within ten feet of her. There is nowhere in our little watery world where she can?t hear or smell me?and I her. Still, she is my Mystery Woman. She has secrets. Hidden places. Private scents. Sweet secretions.
I love the smell of her hair. The way she grunts. How her toes curl.
I really can?t tell where my wife and my life begin or end. Nor where the world and my vessel intersect. I live within a wonderful fairy-tale movie. It is an adventure movie. It is a movie of a love story. It is a travelogue. It is a porno flick, a family flick, a chick flick.
As I move aft in the cabin, I stop at the nav station. It is silent. Most of my instruments are as asleep as my wife. But a GPS winks in anchor-alarm mode. My depth meter reads 15 feet, over a soft mud bottom. My wind speed reports 12 knots. And my Danforth compass indicates the breeze is from the nor?east.
I check the Link 10. My batteries are down 37 amps, not bad. The solar cells will soon recharge them. If, for any reason, the sun hides?then I?ll turn on the wind gen.
I feel in balance.
I take but I give.
I gently lift the companionway screen and move aft into the cockpit. I can tell it is going to be another beautiful day.
Once I had a friend who knew he was going to die soon. I asked him what he wanted. He told me he wanted another perfect day. I asked him what a perfect day was. He told me a perfect day is? any day you?re alive.
We?re currently anchored off the lovely island of Langkawi in Malaysia. The harbor is huge. Giant fish hawks wheel overhead. Puffy white clouds. The sun sparkles on the water like liquid diamonds dancing.
I force myself to take small, quick breathes?I don?t want to hyperventilate with the beauty of it all.
I recently was asked by a questing friend how to find the Now. I told him, ?Find the beauty.?
?Where is the beauty?? he asked.
I thought about telling him to look for God?s footprints or to find Mother Nature or to look at any tree or ocean wave?
?but instead I said, ?It is all around you. If there is ever a time you can?t see beauty?it is because you are not looking hard enough? because awe-inspiring beauty is always there if you but look.?
Even in the midst of atrocity is beauty.
A muezzin starts up singing from one of the nearby shore-side Mosques. I listen. At first he sings all alone. But our harbor is crescent-shaped. We?re within hearing distance of five different Muslim houses of worship. Soon the other muezzins join in for what I call their ?calliope of constipation.?
I find all religion ugly but God beautiful. However, I try to cut ?em some slack. It took me awhile but now I find the singing muezzins inspiring.
I?ve cancelled the shipload of Ex Lax I ordered.
And I pat Buddha on the back (No, not on his sacred head for gosh?s sakes!) for saying, ?Don?t believe in any of them, dude? me included!?
I find the world both enchanting and Enchanted. There are more miracles per second than I can count: snowflakes, clouds, waves and rainbows abound. I recently heard a lecture on string theory?and it made me giggle.
?could it be that art and science?and Las Vegas, even?is God playing peek-a-boo with himself?
My wife Carolyn and I recently spent a couple of weeks making a beautiful cockpit table. It gleams at me. It is still new-enough that I marvel at it. We made in out of local hardwood. We used mostly hand tools: planes, rasps, chisels and saws. We took turns on the long cuts. I?d saw for awhile, then she would. We?re close to the equator. Sweat dripped off her nose. Sawdust rivuleted between her breasts. One strand of hair kept falling down?and she?d blow it back away with exasperation.
I find it all erotic.
She came aboard to sew up some curtains at 15 years of age, and has been sewing happiness into my life ever since. People are amazed and distressed at America?s divorce rate. I am not. Why should couples stay together? She is her own person. People are individual units. She can stand alone. She has everything she needs. Yet still she wants me and I want her.
We?ve lived together aboard now for 39 years?and been lovers for longer than that. We?ve traveled the world together. We?ve mopped up each other?s vomit, feces and blood. And yet she still sparkles to me.
Recently we had little argument and she said in exasperation, ??I just want to grow old with you, Fatty!?
It is the nicest thing anyone has ever said to me.
When I was a young child and growing up aboard the schooner Elizabeth we had a conch shell. It was THE conch, our family?s conch shell. Whenever lunch was ready, my mother would blow it?and I would come running from where ever I was in the harbor. Ditto, dinner. If there was an emergency, the person aboard would blow it?and the rest of our crew/family would immediately drop what they doing and come a?running.
I still have that conch shell. It is now aboard Wild Card, via Corina and Carlotta.
Some sons inherit the family farm, I, a true son-of-a-sailor, inherited a conch shell.
And I am honored to be so honored. It is precious to me. It is my history. It is a lifeline to my distant past. It links me to my dead.
Once, many years ago, I thought I?d lost Carolyn. I didn?t know what to do. I was in a panic. So I hoisted myself to the very top of my mast and then laboriously hauled up the deck bucket with the conch shell. And I blew that conch shell for as long and as loud as I could. Again. And again.
?as my fellow boaters anchored nearby stared up at me with a combination of sorrow and pity.
She heard it.
She came back.
My reverie fades. I hear her moving below?the sound of the head door, the clank of her tea kettle, the smell of our coffee.
?How is it?? she asks me. I don?t know if she?s talking about the weather or the boat or the harbor or life in general? or us. But it doesn?t matter. My answer is the same.
?Fine,? I say.
Eh decent, but talking about her ass? A timeless love note methinks not.
^
One tiny sapling in an entire forest......
Quote from: Travelnik on May 10, 2013, 09:25:27 PM
I wish I could take credit for this, but it was something that Fatty Goodlander wrote. I thought it was really touching, and kept a copy, and I think it fits here. :)
Beautiful. Grog for posting that. Gonna share it with the XO.
Quote from: rorik on May 11, 2013, 07:51:38 PM
^
One tiny sapling in an entire forest......
;D ;D
Quote from: northoceanbeach on May 07, 2013, 01:36:09 AM
So what do you do? Might explain the single 50 something's I see walking the dock. Is it better that way? You get to do whatever you want when you want, but maybe at the end of your life it gets lonely and you die alone and I can't say how that would feel.
Good observation. I remember seeing all of the "old" guys alone on their boats & thinking man that sucks.
I met my wife on a boat, courted her on a boat & got married on a boat. Well 10 years later she wants nothing to do with boats, I'm to busy with business to care.
Fast forward to the present & after 27 years of marriage I find myself one of the "old" married guys alone on the dock w/ their boat. I don't know which is worse..
I dunno the answer to that one ??? (either!).
I guess it comes down to deciding what makes you happy(er?), or failing that what (which one?!) makes you unhappy.
And perhaps also that if you love them enough you set them free (of you!). and if not, then f#ck 'em - life is too short ;D
Of course if life was only that simple!
Quote from: misfits on May 12, 2013, 09:14:03 AM
Fast forward to the present & after 27 years of marriage I find myself one of the "old" married guys alone on the dock w/ their boat. I don't know which is worse..
I would think you are not only walking the docks alone but also the hall in your home. It is so sad when couples go different directions but still live together for one reason or another.
Life is to short to be lonely.
Quote
I would think you are not only walking the docks alone but also the hall in your home.
Life is to short to be lonely.
Gosh no, I love my wife & life is good is at home. For me it's the boat thing. I struggle with the fact that in a few more years I plan to cast off for the summer months or maybe head down south for the winter. I'd love to do the loop & spend a few summers on Superior. Bottom line she's not interested in going. Our relationship is such that she wouldn't try to stop me anymore than I would try to stop her from doing the things she enjoy's in life.
But you're right, life is to short to be lonely so I'm sure situations such as this become dilemmas for many men.
Edit by Captain Smollett: fixed quote tag
We've been settled for a while now,
our children are on their own
I'm feeling a little restless though,
can we drift a bit from town?
our girls picked out such wonderfull men
Its good to see them shine
they're strong and quick and unsuspecting
of the joyous trap they're in
so lets drift a little more
we can pull our anchor in
we can highway for a time
a long vacation aint a sin
when we're old and don't remember
it won't matter where we've been
but while we have this time on earth
I'd see that spark again
ah, but that spark just became a pair of eyes
that run and sing with glee
tried to call me grandpa today
I can't believe thats me
Tom Z