sailFar.net

This seems like a taboo subject in cruising. I hear reports, but few direct reports in either direction.

I am not asking if you should cruise with a firearm. I think its up to the individual and either opinion should be respected.

I want to hear from those who do.... or from those who think they should. (all other opinions welcome)

To add even more confluence to this river... I am not allowed to own firearms in the US (long story, but I've a felony record and can't own a gun)... So I'm wondering how that would affect cruising outside of the US.

Say for example, I left the US and bought a gun somewhere in Central America... would I need to worry about my status in the US when entering other countries? or could I keep it until I made my way back to the US? (then throw it overboard or seomthing  :-\ )

I'm not overly concerned... I think I can handle most situations without worry, but things are changing around the world and when the time comes, I'd rather have it, than not.....

I'm asking this in response to a recent article on noonsite:

http://www.noonsite.com/Members/sue/R2009-04-15-3

Quote
On Saturday 7th April motoring along the Venezuelan coast just past Tres Puntos, I noticed a penero coming up astern about a mile away. Looking through binoculars I saw 4 men armed with AK47s and shotguns.

I headed north out to open sea at full speed. They came up on my stb'd quarter and shot out the aft window in the wheelhouse. A piece of glass hit my crew member in the neck and I told her to get below. I was not going to stop, they were trying to kill us I have no doubt about that.

They fired 16 shots to the hull and wheelhouse shooting most of the windows out. I sustained a head and shoulder wound.

I returned fire with the only weapon I had, a large older flare gun, which I fired at the pirates at close range (about 30 feet) on my port quarter. I headed into the swells at full speed so my vessel was almost bouncing off the waves making it difficult for them to board, plus the added threat of them being lit up by a flare.

Eventually after realizing they wouldn't be able to board me in the fading light they broke off the attack. These men, or at least two of them, had military training by the nature of their shooting.

After my experience I would carry a firearm in future. I've read and heard all the advice from the armchair Rambos - smoke screens, pepper spray etc., Once these thugs are on board you have no chance. Keep them at bay with a few shots and I'm sure they will break off their attack as they did with me.

(I feel that) cruising Venezuela now is out of control. There is no law enforcement anywhere in these waters, even if you do raise the coastguard or Guardia national they are not interested and most people think they are in cahoots with the pirates after you've checked out. I actually live and work in Venezuela and have travelled along the coast of Paria more then a dozen times, but in recent years there have been reports of serious aggrevated attacks on cruisers.

This attack on me was more like a terrorist attack. No warning shot in the air, just one through the wheelhouse window and then when I didn't stop, it was a full on shooting of the boat. I have five bullets to the hull at the waterline, and the rest to the wheelhouse and windows. I called the Trinidad coastguard who monitored my progress but no assistance was given by any coastguard or military agency. The Trinidad coastguard did come to my assistance once I was in the Boca at Trinidad.

Lawlessness is rife in Venezuela now, a great pity as most of the people are warm and friendly. After 20 years cruising these waters it's time to move on.

I've read mised stories online about owning a gun on a boat I don't know man, I think I'd carry a 357 magnum onboard. Just the scarry part is going into some country that don't allow guns or just simply don't go to that country at all. I read a book I can't remember the dang name of it about a guy who sailed around the world in a 31ft pacific seacraft and he carried a shotgun and he says he wouldn't dare go without one. He talks about in his book he encounters some pirates
along his adventure and this was back in I think 1987-1989. Today things are way more screwd up.  guess worst comes to worse pitch it overboard.

I wouldn't think if you were to own a gun in another country and sail outside of US water that it would affect you now if you came back into US waters then yeah you prabally should get rid of it.

I think the 17 year old Zac Sunderland is carrying a gun onboard seems like one of his blogs I read said something about that.

The BIG problem is simply that almost anywhere you'd want to sail to will have very strong laws about the possession of guns on board a boat. Failure to declare said guns or ammunition is of course breaking the law and breaking laws in a lot of places means serious prison time, huge fines and in many cases confiscation of your boat.

So it is a big decision...

Having been cruising since the early eighties I have been boarded and inspected many many times and the two things they are ALWAYS looking for is drugs and guns. Whats more, the guys inspecting and searching are very very good at what they do . So if you have any ideas about being able to have a place on board that will escape their attention... think again. If after a second thought you still think you are brighter than customs and drug enforcement guys give me a call as I have a great deal on a metal tower in the middle of Paris I'd like to sell you, Such a deal!

Which means that in most places you feel you might need a gun it will not be on board but will be checked at the local  station or some such as most countries will impound your gun for the duration of your stay. Which also means that you most likely will have to leave said country from the entry point which will cause all sorts of havoc to most peoples cruising plans. By  the way when they return it to you you will find that more than likely your gun will have been used and abused in your absence!

However you look at it it is seriously problematic. My experience is that there are a lot less places to avoid due to crime than places I'd have to avoid because I can't carry a gun there. For me the math is pretty easy... avoid a half dozen places or don't go to 90% of the places I'd like to...HMMM

Bob

http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/

Firearms threads pop up from time to time in all cruising forums.  Nothing ever comes of them.  Some people see them as just another item on the list of safety items any self-sufficient boater should have on board when going offshore.  Some people are deathly afraid of weapons, hoping that others will leave them alone or save them when they don't.  There is a smaller group who generally believe in self-sufficiency, but wish to avoid the problems associated with entering foreign ports w/ a firearm onboard.  You rarely see anybody change their minds in these threads.  I think the only thing I've learned from them was that many foreign officials seem to respond more positively to a shotgun than other types of firearms.


Perhaps the trick is to stay away from places where you'd need your gun and places where the people aren't free.  Unfortunately, that covers a lot of beautiful places.

I have always been a bit perplexed by the whole firearm and cruising debate. For me firearms on a boat are all about fear as I don't think that the average cruiser would really do that well against a group of well armed pirates (which is often the stated reason for being armed).

It often seems more like an armchair type debate since I haven't really read any well published world cruisers that promote carrying firearms.

But maybe my reading list isn't well rounded enough.  ;D

I also think that carrying firearms affects the image and welcome we receive as Americans when we travel to someone else's home.

Quote from: dnice on April 30, 2009, 02:59:04 AM
......To add even more confluence to this river... I am not allowed to own firearms in the US (long story, but I've a felony record and can't own a gun)... So I'm wondering how that would affect cruising outside of the US.

Say for example, I left the US and bought a gun somewhere in Central America... would I need to worry about my status in the US when entering other countries? or could I keep it until I made my way back to the US? (then throw it overboard or seomthing  :-\ ).....

 I think you would best avoid this.  In the event you are in a position to use the gun, the local authorities are likely to be less then sympathetic (what ever you say the circumstances are).  You are likely to need the help of your local consulate to secure your freedom.  

 If you can not legally possess a firearm in your own country, you are probably less likely to receive sympathy if you have to use it somewhere else.

If you are caught in UK territorial waters with an unregistered firearm, minimum sentence is 5 years, there is no mitigation to this, and from personal experience trust me it will be found.......

Quote from: Bluenose on April 30, 2009, 11:26:18 AM

I haven't really read any well published world cruisers that promote carrying firearms.

The Pardey's have published their views on this topic in numerous places.  They are against guns on board cruising boats, but it seems, to me at least, to be more a matter of personal philosophy for them rather than any great practical issue.

Again, you can go places where the people are free.  There's a difference between being a subject & citizen.  Unfortunately, there are so few places left where the people are free. At the rate we're going, there won't be any place soon.  

I would be interested to know how many people carry a gun ashore, but choose to leave it at home when they're cruising.  I suspect that those who are against guns while cruising are equally against them at home. 

Everybody talks about the checkin problems with guns, but of the few people who I know for sure keep a gun on board, they rarely have a problem with customs. You just claim it (no I wasn't planning on hiding it from anybody) and they do their thing and move on. I haven't heard any first hand problems with customs, its always the people who don't carry a gun that say its a problem. From what I understand if its locked up they usually put a tag on the lock and expect it to be there when you check out.
But maybe they are avoiding certain places.. I don't know.

I fully intend to sail to poorer countries with problems. Although I don't think I'll get stupid and try to go Somalia any time soon :) But countries like Nicaragua, Venezuela and eventually all around the South China Sea are high priorities on my list of places to cruise.

Some of the places I've lived here in the US I believe are far more dangerous than anything I am expecting to encounter while cruising, but for all the years I kept guns in the house or in the car, I never thought that it was necessary, It was just reassuring to know its there.

this story isn't the first one I've read where having a gun on board (not shooting anybody!) saved the day. Most 'pirates' and or whatever, prey on the weak and often a 'show of force' is the appropriate method of defense.
so for me, having a gun isn't about defending myself on board my boat. I am quite sure that once somebody has boarded a gun will just make matter worse, and more than likely its already too late to go get the gun.

Its the ability to prevent a boarding in the first place that makes sense to me and would be my intentions.

I dunno... maybe I could find something else to use.
I suppose a flare gun would be just as handy in most situations, it worked for the guy in this story.

Just for the record I do have some personal experience on the matter...

These days I only carry spearguns  and they are becoming more than enough hassle for me to be seriously considering selling them off when I have an opportunity! The idea of being hit with a $10,000 fine AND seizure of my boat for not bringing in my spearguns is not to be trifled with when visiting the BVI. For what its worth they take firearms a LOT more seriously than spearguns.

Just about every island in the Caribbean requires impoundments of any guns and that includes the USVI, BVI. St Martin, St Bart's and so on right down to Trinidad. Long gone are the days of mentioning a gun to customs and them saying "no problem"

I do know cruisers who carry guns half of which hide them and live in fear and the other half who female dog and moan about how they have to sail back to pick up their gun from impound when it would be much easier to just sail on to the next country/island.

I'm not for or against guns but I am in the Caribbean and have been cruising for a fair bit and guns are a serious hassle. As a felon you also won't be able to show any paperwork or permits for your home country so more than likely the first time you show your gun to customs it will be the last you see of it and the last hassle you will have with a gun on board as they would most likely confiscate it... They do love their paperwork down here!
Bob

http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/

When you have a gun, the question to me  is,  when to pull the trigger.  Now that I am old, and no one to defend,  I would not have a gun on the boat to protect myself.  They can have the propety, and possessions. Now to defend the wife, well this is a must.  So would I  put myself or my sweetie in harms way, no I would not.  Yes, you may say I am a coward, but trying to be hero, just never seemed to work for me.  Life is about choices,  for myself I choose peace.  

Quote from: keelbolts on April 30, 2009, 01:39:44 PM
I suspect that those who are against guns while cruising are equally against them at home. 

I personally don't own guns, my own personal choice to not live in fear. That said, I am perfectly fine with anyone who chooses to own and use guns responsibly. And I am fully in favor of the rights provided in our constitution.

But... I don't think it is right for us to take our rights and our ideals into other countries. But that is just me. The idea of visiting another country, for me, is to be in another country.

But to each their own.

LooseMoose thats interesting. Do they not allow spearguns because they consider it a weapon? or does it have to do with fishing regulations? Would a pole spear be considered the same thing? how do they handle flare guns?


I haven't owned a gun for several years now and I'm fairly confident in my ability to defend myself without one.
I don't want this to be a moral argument about owning guns. But I have to say, owning a gun does not equate to living in fear. If somebody keeps an EPIRB on their boat, are they living in fear? Its just about having options. And obviously everybody has different opinions about this and I respect everybodys right to make their own choice. But thats not what I'm asking about here.


So let me ask this in a different way....

Are there any reasonable steps you can take to avoid being boarded in the case of an obvious badguys with guns in a motor boat approaching your vessel, out of sight of land, in a foreign country?
How do you go about preventing a possible attack? or do you just surrender and hope they take what they want and not hurt you?

Avoiding poor countries is not an acceptable answer. Crime happens everywhere and I choose not to live in fear :P

Spearguns are mostly about fishing regulations... Pole spears are illegal in most of the Caribbean as well.

My phrase "living in fear" was in reference to living in fear that they might be boarded by the authorities who would find their gun and throw them in jail! Which truth be told is much more likely than a villian boarding your boat...

I have sailed from The Med to Africa and then to the Caribbean  and never had a problem with theft or anyone accosting us on the high seas. I'd say that the reason is simply not being dumb...

The best way to avoid being a target is not to flash money, have stuff hanging off your boat that might attract folks of the wrong sort. Anchor out further than folks care to swim. Keep and ear out to the coconut telegraph and don't go where there are currently problems... That sort of stuff.

Its not the wild west down here and half the so called crimes against cruisers don't even really happen but are told and retold tales or mistaken id of the a fisherman comes by to offer to sell or trade some lobster the next day is retold as almost boarded by an AK47 wielding pirate...
Bob

http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/

As always in these discussions, the subject is guns, and not the real issue---the one really at the center of whether you carry a weapon or not.  Other than hunting or target competition, guns have one and only one purpose.  If you have in mind carrying a weapon to scare people, ward them off, or otherwise hold them at bay, you are not prepared to have a weapon.  In a confrontational scenario, on a boat or in your home, when you produce a weapon, you have put the other person in fear for their life and left them with no option but to meet force with force.  As a criminal, that person is already in a mindset to kill if necessary, and you have just made it necessary.  So guns are not the issue.  The issue is whether or not you have the capability to kill, to take another person's life.  You have to know beyond a doubt that when you lay your hand on that weapon, that you have both the ability and the intention to use lethal force.

Beyond the moral and personal fortitude issues, few people have the desire to commit the necessary time to learn how to properly carry and use a weapon.  The most dangerous person, especially to himself, is one with a weapon without the needed training and experience. If you have a weapon, you need to fire at least a box of rounds a month to remain proficient in the use of the weapon and how to confidently acquire a target without aiming.  It will most likely be dark, and you won't have time to sight even if you could see the sights.  Sights are for targets more than 60 feet away.  Most personal confrontations will occur within 15 feet. The weapon must be part of you and its use as second nature as the use of your fingers.  There will be no time to load, to see if the safety is on or off, or remember if there's a round already in the chamber.  Further, there won't be time to think.  Your actions must be intuitive.  In less than a second you must be able to resolve the legal conditions and ramifications, the shoot/don't shoot decision, and acquire the target.  That only comes with a lot of training and practice.     From experience, I can assure you it will all be over in less than two seconds.  Either you will have acted, or you will have been acted upon.

You will also ramp up your responsibilities in many other ways.  Even if you never need to use the weapon, its mere possession can have life changing consequences.  You have to be certain it cannot be used against yourself, cannot fall into the wrong hands, cannot be accessed by children, cannot be accidentally used against a family member in the middle of the night while you are half asleep, and when and where you have it isn't putting you in legal jeopardy.  If you carry it, its presence must always be in mind as it will determine what buildings you can enter, where you can go, where you can store it safely if you have to leave it, if you will create a disturbance by its visibility, or if you are properly permitted to carry it in that locale concealed, where other people are and if they are in a position to strip it from you, and so one.  The obvious point that comes here is that if you have that kind of situational awareness, you probably won't put yourself in a position to need a weapon in the first place.  The unavoidable truth is that most victims are targeted because they've done something stupid that has marked them as vulnerable, like carrying large sums of money that they've displayed publicly, are wearing gold chains, expensive jewelry, are carrying expensive cameras, going to unsavory places or out-of-the-way unpopulated areas, or walked alone in remote areas or late at night.  A rose is a rose, is a rose, is a rose, and people are people, are people, are people.  Cruising to a third-world country is not what makes you a target.  Whether you are in  Washington, D.C., St. Thomas, or Cape Town, being smart about what you do, how you act, and where you go will have more of an impact on your safety than having a weapon.  Lastly, the use of a weapon is usually an issue in a one-on-one confrontational scenario.  It isn't worth even bringing up in a pirate attack question.  Unless you have at least a half-dozen automatic weapons and the trained people on board to use them, brandishing a weapon in such a situation will only guarantee your demise.  Whether you possess or carry a weapon is 5% of the issue.  The remaining ninety-five percent of the issue concerns training and when, where, and how you use lethal force.

Ok, So i've been reading about this on other sites and there is already a lot of information out there. And of course multitudes of opinions.

The subject is in fact guns. Not the responsibilites of owning one. But you make some good points nonetheless. I don't agree that most victims are doing something stupid, but obviously there are ways to avoid being a target. although I know from my own experiences, stuff happens whether you do everything right or not.

It appears that the hassle of transporting a gun between ports is enough for me to not want to carry one. But I am sad to learn that the same hassles will apply to spears and flare guns (in some countries)...
I wonder how customs officials would treat a ninja sword? :D

Customs are a tricky issue. I hate to think that I could end up in prison because I had percocet in my med-kit or because my flare gun was considered a firearm. Thank god for the internet! I'm sure information will be readily available whenever I move to a new country.

As far as how to deal with an outright pirate attack... I guess that can only be answered right then and there. I believe having a gun would be ideal, but most things rarely happen in an ideal form or fashion anyway.

Quote from: dnice on April 30, 2009, 05:32:50 PM
But I have to say, owning a gun does not equate to living in fear.

Does owning a gun equate to living in fear? No. But I think rationalizing owning a gun on a boat because of pirate attacks does. I believe this because the effort taken to prevent the potential incident seems excessive with respect to the odds of it happening. And real threats to our lives are completely ignored

Here is a pictorial description of the odds of dying in the US.

(http://static.scribd.com/profiles/images/ftkg5onvxqn51-full.jpg)

Now obviously they don't mention the odds of pirate attacks on the high seas. But all of our worst dying realities are health related, Heart Disease, Cancer, Stroke. Where are the huge measures taken to prevent death from these likely issues during our cruise? As Americans we gladly ride motorcycles without helmets, drive without seatbelts, eat high fat foods and smoke. But we are deathly afraid of dying without our guns.

As I mentioned in a prior post, I have nothing against guns. I am just a proponent of honesty and reality. If you want a gun onboard go for it. You just don't have to use pirates as justification. You are probably far more likely to die driving to the marina than from pirate attacks. ;D

Quote from: dnice on April 30, 2009, 05:32:50 PM
If somebody keeps an EPIRB on their boat, are they living in fear?

I will leave that one alone. :-\

Cheers, Bill

Owning a gun for self defense is based entirely on the highly unlikely event you would ever need it.
There is no secret there, no justification needed, and completely honest.

I really just wanted know about the difficulties of traveling with a gun. I tried to make this clear.
But after reading similar threads on other sites it is obvious this is too sensitive of a subject for a public forum.

Quote from: dnice on April 30, 2009, 10:21:35 PM
Owning a gun for self defense is based entirely on the highly unlikely event you would ever need it.
There is no secret there, no justification needed, and completely honest.

I really just wanted know about the difficulties of traveling with a gun. I tried to make this clear.
But after reading similar threads on other sites it is obvious this is too sensitive of a subject for a public forum.

  I am not sure what you are looking at to say this is too sensitive.  I do think that part of the problem with the discussion is that many (most?) who do carry firearms do not choose to advertise the fact, or discuss others opinions of their decision on the internet.

   

dnice,  thanks for the posting.  I enjoyed it,and also talking to the wife about the posts.  Good and exciting exchange of opinions.

don

I mean its too sensitive in that, its impossible to talk about cruising with a gun without the conversation turning into  opinions about whether or not to own a gun in the first place and the moral issues and responsibilies associated with owning a gun.
Based on other forums....
But I can see this one is going that direction, and I also see that I've helped direct it that way and so I'm not blaming anyone.

I'm not even sure now what I was looking for when I posted the orginal question.
I just wanted to know how difficult it is to travel with a gun, and particularly how people are successfully dealing with those difficulties (because I know they are).

I personally would like to keep a gun on my boat, but if the legal issues and customs difficulties are too much, then Its not worth it. From what I'm reading, its looking Like its not worth it.

I have family experience with gun on board.  My cousin was taking a new boat from Alabama to Oregon to convert to tuna boat.  He had did this a few times before and was experienced with canal zone, Mexico and all that.  Any way entered Mexico under emergency. He had a 22 on board.  When he hit port he went directly to port captain and filled out proper papers, declared 22 and had no problems.  Menwhile another official boarded his boat.  His deck hand couldn't communicate with official so official impounded boat( he was looking for pay off) and arrested my cousin when he returned.  Shorten story ,After year in prison Canadian consulate secured his release.  U.S. did not try. When court date came up he went back down, judge looked at charges and dropped them and ordered release of boat.  By this time all electronics engine and winches with everything else that could be stripped off was stripped off boat.  Boat had been in secured Mexican government controle.
By the way there were over a hundred other AMERICAN FISHERMEN BEING HELD BY Mexico and U.S. does nothing for them.  You pay for your food and any other comfort you need, medicine included. He earned money painting and selling them to visitors to the prison.  Yep, I can't wait to visit south of the boarder.

This is off topic but wounder why people will pay good money to visit foreign geto when we have plenty in New York city and other citys in U.S.

This is off topic but wounder why people will pay good money to visit foreign geto when we have plenty in New York city and other citys in U.S.
[/quote]


LOL!

Geeze....I thought anchoring was a tuff topic  :o To all this gun talk, I just want to add...."I like eggs" ;D

Quote from: Frank on April 30, 2009, 11:41:01 PM
Geeze....I thought anchoring was a tuff topic  :o To all this gun talk, I just want to add...."I like eggs" ;D

Yes, and I like cheese.

  Cheese and eggs go together nicely. 

Cheese, eggs, and bagels.  Bagels are good boat food, bread that will pretty much last forever in a sealed container.  It if it gets a little stale, I just toast them over an open burner on a fork.

  Cook up the eggs, add cheese, and toast the bagels.  A little bit of mustard, and you have a pretty good breakfast right there.   ;D

  Thanks for bringing that up Frank.   ;)
 

Quote from: Bluenose on April 30, 2009, 09:43:38 PM

Here is a pictorial description of the odds of dying in the US.

The problem is that we are talking about traveling to OTHER countries...not within the US.  Some stats, like heart disease, may well carry over since that is going to be based on where/how you live, but other acutely environmental causes (dying in a car bomb, for example) will be VERY different depending upon where you are.

My comment does not relate to whether or not someone should carry guns on board, of course.   ;)

Quote from: Captain Smollett on April 30, 2009, 11:51:35 PM
My comment does not relate to whether or not someone should carry guns on board, of course.   ;)

Yes, but you completely ignored the central issue....  :-[


  Do you, or do you not....  :-\



















... like eggs and cheese?  ;D

Speaking of heart desease Capt. S,....Craigs use of mustard with his eggs is a great idea.Not only does it store well without refridgeration...but it has zero calories and zero fat content.I have always used katsup..yep, good ole hienz..on my egg sandwich,but it is loaded with sugar and extremely high in calories. Thanks Craig...grog to ya. Now I'll worry less about my heart out there. ;)

Quote from: Frank on April 30, 2009, 11:59:17 PM
Speaking of heart desease Capt. S,....Craigs use of mustard with his eggs is a great idea.Not only does it store well without refridgeration...but it has zero calories and zero fat content.I have always used katsup..yep, good ole hienz..on my egg sandwich,but it is loaded with sugar and extremely high in calories. Thanks Craig...grog to ya. Now I'll worry less about my heart out there. ;)

Frank,


  Condiments don't kill people...... 


    People kill people!  :P




;D

Quote from: s/v Faith on May 01, 2009, 12:46:02 AM

Quote from: Frank on April 30, 2009, 11:59:17 PM
Speaking of heart desease Capt. S,....Craigs use of mustard with his eggs is a great idea.Not only does it store well without refridgeration...but it has zero calories and zero fat content.I have always used katsup..yep, good ole hienz..on my egg sandwich,but it is loaded with sugar and extremely high in calories. Thanks Craig...grog to ya. Now I'll worry less about my heart out there. ;)

Frank,


  Condiments don't kill people...... 


    People kill people!  :P




;D

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Quote from: s/v Faith on May 01, 2009, 12:46:02 AM

Frank,


  Condiments don't kill people...... 


    People kill people!  :P




;D

;D ;D ;D

Grog for that one...needed a morning laugh!

As for the egg and cheese issue, and I know this one is very sensitive, I'll just add that my wife and daughter almost won't touch eggs without cheese on them.  Me?  Not so much - occasionally; so, it's not as you'd say a MORAL thing with me, just a personal preference.  Becky and I have agreed to disagree on this explosive breakfast topic.  She gets to put cheese on HER eggs, while I remain free to eat mine without.

I used to put ketchup on my eggs, but not any more.  Never tried mustard on the eggs, but I will..sounds yummy - though I know how controversial this will be.

Condoms may not kill people, but they do prevent them.






Condiments?




Oh, never mind...

Cheese on eggs? That's fine, but for REALLY good eggs ( or mashed potatoes, or other foods) ya GOTTA have a sprinkle of Tony Chachere's. Meats and other veggies too ;)

Don't leave port without it.

One perspective.  Perhaps others can comment on weather this is a valid worry.  If you declare your arms, then people know you have them  (usually a mistake)  Doesn't this have the potential to make you more of a target?   Then couple this with having more problems clearing out, more people being aware that someone with a gun is clearing out.  And having less choice about when you actually leave.  It sort of prevents you from just slipping away in the middle of the night....

    I would think that giving up a low profile and some freedom of movement, would more than offset any security gained from the gun.  All this is assuming you declare your arms. 

    On thing I always keep tucked in the back of my brain, is that these discussions are probably biased in one way.  Those who carry guns, and don't declare them, probably don't participate in these discussions.

Quote from: s/v necessity on May 01, 2009, 09:09:01 AM


    On thing I always keep tucked in the back of my brain, is that these discussions are probably biased in one way.  Those who carry guns, and don't declare them, probably don't participate in these discussions.

Some just come for the food  ;)

"It sort of prevents you from just slipping away in the middle of the night...."

Actually if in a foreign country, you are pretty much prevented from doing that by the need to clear out of the country. Not doing so, not having exit stamps, could cause difficulties in the NEXT country you visit.

If there is one thing I have learned having traveled in foreign countries whether by land or sea, they make the rules, you can either play by them or have a very difficult time.

There are firearms aboard Auspicious. I have training in their use from three USG agencies and practice regularly. Having them aboard has already been a pain in the *ahem* within the US. Don't get me started on the State of Maryland. I will leave them behind if I leave the US -- just too much of a pain.

The ninja sword idea is entertaining, but you may find a good machete to be of much greater use, particularly in the Eastern Caribbean and Bahamas.

Oh: I'm just here for the food (http://www.amazon.com/Im-Just-Here-Food-Cooking/dp/1584790830).

Eggs are for omelets, easy on the cheese, and a good hot sauce.

Let's not forget the old standby, short range defensive weapon, legal EVERYWHERE. In fact, you don't even have to worry about declaring it and a short shot in the face will render any close range intruder totally helpless, but relatively unharmed..

A simple can of Wasp Spray.

-snip-
"It sort of prevents you from just slipping away in the middle of the night...."

Actually if in a foreign country, you are pretty much prevented from doing that by the need to clear out of the country. Not doing so, not having exit stamps, could cause difficulties in the NEXT country you visit.
-snip-

  Well I meant it as a figure of speech.  It's my understanding that when clearing with firearms you frequently have to go directly to the boat and directly away.    Whereas, without a firearm you still have to clear out, but you have a bit more freedom as to when and where you clear out, and how much time you have to depart after you clear out.   *If* this were to be true, then you *might* see the guns as actually posing more risk than they could ever avert.

    I honestly have no idea what the reality is.  Seems opinion runs the entire spectrum.  Some say that guns are no problem, declare them and lock them in a sealed locker while you are on shore, and it's easy as Sunday morning.  No big deal.  And in the other corner it seems that you have to surrender them, return to said port to get them, wait for them to let you have them back (their schedule not yours) and then once you get them you must depart immediately.  Regardless of the hurricane that is about to hit.  (or the pirates that have just received a phone call about your departure time and route)

Wasp spray is a good idea, I was thinking bear spray or a big can of pepper spray, but it seems even that stuff is a cause for scrutiny in some ports.

necessity: thats exactly why I'm so curious, some claim to have no problems, and some say otherwise. So trying to find out what the differences are and getting specifics out of anybody (like which countries/ports and what type of gun was it, was it locked up, etc.. etc..) seems to be near impossible in a public place. Which is probably a good thing.

I guess there's just too many variables when you're talking about multiple countries, ports, and customs officers.

But since the potential for problems in certain places is likely, I doubt I will be carrying anything that even looks like a gun until I get out there and see how things are for myself, but my curiosity is not at all satisfied.

I fights to the finish cause I eats my spinach!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnO4EhusWuQ

Quote from: skylark on May 01, 2009, 08:57:00 PM
I fights to the finish cause I eats my spinach!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnO4EhusWuQ

Yes, I remember that from Tv.  Now was that last week,  or the week before?   ???

Before there was Dirty Harry.......








  Before there was Chuck Norris.....









There was Popeye the Sailor Man!!!!!

Quote from: skylark on May 01, 2009, 08:57:00 PM
I fights to the finish cause I eats my spinach!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnO4EhusWuQ

 Grog to you for that one!   ;D

Did an  internet seach, boy, I am old.  Thanks, I forgot about Popeye.

Quote from: LooseMoose on April 30, 2009, 08:43:39 AM
The BIG problem is simply that almost anywhere you'd want to sail to will have very strong laws about the possession of guns on board a boat. Failure to declare said guns or ammunition is of course breaking the law and breaking laws in a lot of places means serious prison time, huge fines and in many cases confiscation of your boat....

Just throwing my 2 cents (opps, they've been eliminated, make that 5), being in the similar situation as loosemoose, I have almost exactly the same things to say.

After martial law was declared here five weeks ago, I'm advising anyone with weapons on board not to even come to Fiji.  All needs happen is a tight-strung person comes in on a yacht with a weapon, runs into a soldier who could be a bit sharper, then a shooting of someone, and an international incident.

I'm not anti-gun, I'd actually love to have a bird gun here (Pacific Pigeon=yummy!), it's all just outside my personal risk threshhold to have one on board.

best,

How are things down there for cruisers. Maybe we could get you to start a new thread when you get a chance.

I know for most small boat cruisers crossing the puddle for the south seas is not real likely but  it is nice to dream ;)
Plus I am contemplating perhaps doing a little traveling that way next year perhaps trying to find a charter for some of the time.
How is the politcal scene affecting day to day life.

Thanks Tim

Crossing the Pacific, and sailing the south sea islands has been a dream for years. Unfortunately, now at 68 years old, it's not really likely to happen. I'll settle for the Bahamas I suppose.

But Laura is quite a bit younger than I, and a helluva sailor, so perhaps SHE will one day make that sail, after I'm gone. Maybe she'll carry a bit of my ashes and dump them in some lagoon somewhere one day. Long time from now I hope :D

Although not QUITE as old as you Charlie ;D I too don't think I will be making the crossing in this lifetime, but I haven't given up on the idea of flying there and THEN sailing ;)

Something to think about anyway :)

C'mon, guys, ya'll are not down for the count yet.

No guts, no glory.  I say go for it.      ;D  Live the dream.

Com'on Charlie, You are developing an attitude problem.  Man you're only 68 and you got the fountain of youth for crew... Just go for it ..  Jim

 ;D

And I just drove down to the beach and watched that crew sail past ;D

She's out on the boat single hand for a couple of days, while *I* stay here and work.

Quote from: TJim on May 12, 2009, 08:58:22 AM
Com'on Charlie, You are developing an attitude problem.  Man you're only 68 and you got the fountain of youth for crew... Just go for it ..  Jim

I agree just go for it. We aint old we're in the prime of life.

I think it was Eric Hiscock that crossed the Tasman sea for his 78th (+/-) birthday ....STOP dreaming..action man...ACTION ;) ;D :o :)   You have something in common....a great sailor for a wife ;)

Reports have John Davis aboard a 35' custom sailboat s/v Radiance II just arrived at Taiohae, Nuku Hiva. John's 72 (or 73) years old, and single-handing.

 ;D ;D ;D

Yeah, yeah- I know all that- and Phil Weld won the OSTAR on Moxie at 66.

I ain't saying I'm OLD, just that choices must be made, and it looks like the Keys and Bahamas are gonna be the choice, at least for the next two years.

After that, who knows? Perhaps we'll decide Tehani is just too small and opt for a BIG boat- something in the 28- 30 foot range :D

Quote from: CharlieJ on May 12, 2009, 05:28:21 PMAfter that, who knows? Perhaps we'll decide Tehani is just too small and opt for a BIG boat- something in the 28- 30 foot range :D

I was just noticing this evening how much less a Triton heels when stepped aboard (very little, for me), than an Ariel (noticeably).

Something about that extra ton or so of displacement, I reckon... :)

There is no replacement for displacement (Alright WHO said that and what are they doing on this board!)

I`m an competitive shooter and own several firearms for target shooting. Strangely enough I do not carry a personal defense firearm. SO when I finally get that boat and cast off the lines it will most likely be unarmed.

Too many regulations to enter a foreign port with a firearm. As I understand the Bahamas are not much of a problem if you have a firearm on board. Other country might not be so understanding and will be a real headache when declaring a firearm onboard.

If you have any doubts that you might be able aim at the bad guy and pull the trigger then a firearm is not something you should have onboard. Education on safety and operation are extremely important and one should not take possesion of a firearm lightly.

My .02

Alright Kieth, make us get back on topic :D
Has anyone been to the Noonsite pages lately? What they are saying is pretty scary, and I must say that I am rethinking my no gun policy. Especially when a international security professional writes in and says that shotguns would be OK in most ports, and very useful to prevent the robbery/murders. I like the idea of a rifle too- where I could cook the other guys outboard if it was obvious that he meant harm.
I do not have a problem with defending myself, but I could harm someone else when there was no other way. Maybe I will just not get out of USCG waters...

I'm a gun guy.  I own guns.  I shoot guns.  I believe they are invaluably for personal protection as well as sport.  I would carry one if legal able (in Maryland, it is nearly impossible to do legally).

That said, life is a balancing game of risk versus reward.

In international cruising, the risk of being caught with an undeclared firearm outweighs the benefit.  Rotting in a third world jail (or frankly, any jail) is probably more dangerous than what you will find in your average port.  Plus freedom of movement is important.

Declaring a firearm would probably entail having it secured in some government safe somewhere, where it may not get the best treatment.  Plus, your movement would be drastically compromised by the need to pick it up before leaving.  Or, if they lock it onboard in a bonded locker it won't be immediately available if you need it.  Defeats the purpose.  Not much benefit.

Respecting the host country is important, too.  You may not agree with their laws; but you are a guest.  Comply or go home.  Not enough risk to justify giving up the reward.

What can you do?  Given a reasonable choice I'd take the firearms.  But the choice doesn't seem all that reasonable.  I'd leave them at home.

This whole issue, to me, seems typical of our fear based culture. Our media loves to highlight the extreme events and treat them like they are ordinary, everyday occurrences. So we hear about a the high profile pirate attacks or a private yachts being taking and never hear about the thousands and thousands of sea miles traveled in peace and safety.

There are so many things to be afraid of when contemplating an ocean voyage that if your actions are determined by fear, I imagine you will never leave.

For me guns would be like anything else looking for a coveted spot on a small boat. They would have to pay their way often and hopefully be useful for multiple tasks.

I just don't see it.

Cheers, Bill

I'm not sure I agree that it is a "fear based culture" issue.  Well, at least not in general.  I think it is a " being prepared" issue.  Sort of like carrying storm sails, storm anchors, sea anchors, EPIRBs, etc... Preparing for situations which should be avoidable for the most part with proper planning; but situations which could still come up regardless.  Instead of preparing against mother nature, it is preparing against fellow man.  Not an unreasonable thing to do, in my opinion.  Especially considering that as Americans (the majority of us here, I believe) we are automatically hated by many.  Tourists in general are assumed to be rich and easy pickings by many (and by comparison, usually are).  That's why folks are careful where they visit, they lock their boats, they don't keep all their cash in one place, stay in groups, etc...  Some places are very safe, others are very dangerous, most are in between. 

"Be prepared" isn't just a Boyscout slogan.  For some of us, it is a way of life.

Be aware of your surroundings.  Don't be obvious and flashy with money.  Be friendly and courteous.  Avoid known trouble areas (neighborhoods of Colón, Panama, for instance.  Or parts of Baltimore, for that matter).  All valid and effective ways of minimizing threat.  A firearm is just one more piece of the puzzle.  A piece which has practical difficulties.

BTW, in the little boats we sail, we probably aren't big targets for piracy, and probably couldn't carry enough firepower to repel serious pirates anyhow (I'm thinking the kind that got into trouble a few weeks ago).

Quote from: Godot on May 22, 2009, 03:49:27 PM
I'm not sure I agree that it is a "fear based culture" issue.  Well, at least not in general.  I think it is a " being prepared" issue.  Sort of like carrying storm sails, storm anchors, sea anchors, EPIRBs, etc... Preparing for situations which should be avoidable for the most part with proper planning; but situations which could still come up regardless.  Instead of preparing against mother nature, it is preparing against fellow man.  Not an unreasonable thing to do, in my opinion.  Especially considering that as Americans (the majority of us here, I believe) we are automatically hated by many.  Tourists in general are assumed to be rich and easy pickings by many (and by comparison, usually are).  That's why folks are careful where they visit, they lock their boats, they don't keep all their cash in one place, stay in groups, etc...  Some places are very safe, others are very dangerous, most are in between. 

"Be prepared" isn't just a Boyscout slogan.  For some of us, it is a way of life.

Be aware of your surroundings.  Don't be obvious and flashy with money.  Be friendly and courteous.  Avoid known trouble areas (neighborhoods of Colón, Panama, for instance.  Or parts of Baltimore, for that matter).  All valid and effective ways of minimizing threat.  A firearm is just one more piece of the puzzle.  A piece which has practical difficulties.

BTW, in the little boats we sail, we probably aren't big targets for piracy, and probably couldn't carry enough firepower to repel serious pirates anyhow (I'm thinking the kind that got into trouble a few weeks ago).

Adam,

Exactly. Being prepared. I get it and agree with it.

Storm sails... not if but when you will use them. Same with storm anchors and drogues. They are prudent because the event is likely to happen so you plan for them.

I just don't see how firearms fall into the same category as storm sails.

We all probably read and reread the Pardey's. They have used their storm gear countless times but never had the need for firearms in all their thousands of miles at sea. Now, I am not saying some wouldn't I am just saying the likelihood is nowhere near the same as storm gear for instance.

And for me, and only me, when people, or cultures worry about something a disproportionate amount to the likelihood if its chance of happening, it seems fear based.

And as I mentioned before, if someone wants to take a gun on board, go for it. I just don't understand rationalizing the decision based a statistically insignificant chance of an attack happening to someone cruising in a small boat.

As a bit of an aside, today I had a lovely little day sail and I happen upon an Etchells (a neat one design raceboat). I just love boats that all all sail so I grabbed the camera and started shooting. With this thread fresh in my mind and the current and wind chop tossing the boat around, I couldn't help wondering how you would hit someone or something with a firearm on small boat. I was having a hard enough time with the camera. Maybe someone could enlighten me. ::)

Cheers, Bill

I've laid off posting on this one......seems like a ford-chev talk....or worst yet- politics  ;D  But seeing as it keeps coming back...here goes.
I honestly do not see how a firearm will help you.
      scenario #1
             You are at sea making 5 knots...you are approached by a power boat at speed with armed men.
             You A- come up with your pistol in a show of strength..hopefully they leave.They do not and come
                        alongside.You fire, killing one.You are then shot dead.They get your belongings.
                    B-you come up unarmed, they come alongside-theaten-you give them your belongings.
              Same result-2  less people dead. Face it...you will NEVER be a match for a armed speedboat 
             
    scenario #2
              You are boarded at night by an armed man
              You A-come up with a pistol and fire.He dies and you are in a strange country and a legal mess
                     or............you get shot
                     or............don't fire and he gets scared off by your gun

  Any of these would have the same or BETTER result with a flare gun.  At least you'll be seen,be legal and avoid BS.

                 This message brought to you by a multiple gun owner

                 we will now return to our regularly scheduled program

                 I like eggs

I think Godot was just making a case for preparedness not being equal to fear. He wasn't saying guns are directly comparable to storm gear.

I have personally been in situations in my life where A: having a gun was not only helpful, but completely changed the outcome (for the better) of a seriously dangerous situation.

and B: Having a gun would have prevented the death of 2 innocent people.

If I am ever in a similar situation to B again, I certainly hope I have a gun at the time. I didn't have one that time because it was a "safe" place and an event like that was about as likely as our house being crushed by a meteor, and what was even more unlikely was that I would be there for it.

Situation A could have got ugly, but it didn't, and I don't regret my actions or having a gun one bit.

In situation A, it was not luck that I had a gun. I obtained it specifically because I was aware of deteriorating conditions in the area and the possibility of violence was becoming more and more likely (very quickly).

Ok so thats twice in the last 12 years... now explain to me again how unlikely it is?
You may think where you are, or where you are planning to cruise is safe. but things can change very quickly and you don't always know when, where or how.

Does this mean you (or I) should live in fear and anticipate danger around every corner? No absolutely not.
but considering the possibility and weighing your options is not only reasonable, its perfectly sensible.

Does this mean carrying a gun is the right thing to do? Not for most people. but its ok to talk about it and consider the possibilities.

I plan to cruise in places that other people consider "dangerous" and I will NOT be bringing a gun, but only because the logistics and legalities make it impractical and in most cases, useless. But, that little boyscout inside my head still says to bring one...

Accusing people of being scared, or assuming that anybody here is motivated by the media or the propagation of fear in whatever format, is downright insulting IMO.

I would consider Zac Sunderland one seriously brave 16 year old kid. DESPITE the fact that he is carrying a firearm, 2 radars, multiple epirbs and a liferaft!!! :D

Every form of preparedness is, on some level, fear based. but its rational fear, the kind of fear that keeps people alive. I would say this type of fear is far more rational than having your head up your...(in the clouds)... believing that nothing bad will ever happen to you.

I completely agree with what everybody here has said about respecting the laws and customs of other countries, but I can assure you, if you're in a place where you have to defend yourself with firearm, the last thing you should be worried about are the legal consequences.

BTW: here is proof that a flare gun will not work in a self defense situation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTU2o3LGumI

::shrug:: I'm involved in health research among adolescents. Let me assure you that, for the most part, everything you hear about all the risky, dangerous behavior of teens is happening to a teeny tiny microscopic portion of the population, orders of magnitude less common than sailors getting caught out by hurricanes. But the press is all over that.

And that is my basis for considering Bluenose to be right on when xe says 'fear based'.

For your plans 'to cruise in places that other people consider "dangerous"' I wish you great luck and skill! I hope to do the same, in waters without land or people. But I think part of the 'Be Prepared' mantra includes avoiding unnecessary risks far more than being able to clean up after getting the expected outcomes of unnecessary risks. I can't avoid making passages, so they are necessary risk taking.

I will start by saying that I am a gun owner. I shoot both bullseye and IDPA competition. I am trained in both firearm safety (NRA) and defensive shooting (Front Sight) and I generally carry when traveling where legal. It is not currently legal to carry in my home state.

On my boat I carry flares, pfd's, fire extinguisher and other items I hope to never need. I don't do this out of fear, but out of the knowledge that only I am responsible for the safety of my family and myself.

Having said all that, I would like a discussion on just what the regulations for armed cruisers are in various countries, preferably by people who have been there and done that. There is far too much "I heard..." and "a friend told me..." anytime this subject comes up. I suspect that those among us who go armed by sea are much like those of us on land, keeping a low profile and often being reluctant to discuss it.

At present my only definite international destination is the Bahamas, which I understand has a pretty simple procedure for firearms on boats.

When cruising Mexico, sea of Cortez and other places, I have always carried a
Cross bow. Tell me it isn't a survival tool.
Its certainly not a gun!

I've been gone doing non-boat stuff for awhile; but this is a pet issue of mine, so I thought I'd chime back in.  I will try to avoid any political talk, and try and stick to the practical and philosophical...

Violent crime is not rare.  At all.  A few months ago someone was shot across the street from my house in my respectable middle class neighborhood.   On June 15th, the clerk in the convenience store at the base of my street (a whole 4 minute walk away) was shot during a robbery.   Last week the owner of a liquor store I sometimes visit was shot.  Six months ago a girl I know was smashed in the back of her head with a baseball bat (she is still dealing with complications) for $40.  None of this happened in what would normally be considered bad neighborhoods, although it all happened in Baltimore which is not your most peaceful city.  About two years ago I missed getting mugged (gun point) by about ten seconds as I left a party in a fairly well to do neighborhood outside of DC (my mind is blanking on the name of the town), just because I stopped to shake one last hand and another guest (who got mugged instead) left a few seconds before me.

The economy is not healthy, and is still deteriorating (although the argument is being made that the deterioration is slowing).  Desperate people are beginning to appear in greater numbers.  This is a worldwide phenomena.  If you visit many countries outside of the normal high security tourist areas, it pays to be alert.  Sure, the odds may be with you on not being molested; but they aren't so far in your favor that it can be disregarded.

Also, in regards to the big news stories getting people worked up, well, there is a flip side.  Typically only the most heinous crimes get sensationalized.  The vast majority of crime gets, maybe, a line or two in a newspaper.  And maybe not even that.

While there is certainly no one size fits all plan for personal defense, overall nothing beats a gun for self defense.  A 105 pound 75 year old grandma at least has a chance with a handgun against a twenty year old thug.   With some training, maybe even a quite decent chance.

Oh, and as a matter of a personal philosophy, I don't believe in letting a bad guy off the hook if it is in my power to stop him.  Sure, my life might be worth more the the $20 in my wallet; but there is no guarantee he will let me go after he gets the money.  And even if he lets me go, what about the next person.  Or the person after that.  Violent, anti-social behavior shouldn't be encouraged by inaction.  But, that is just me.

Just to be clear, as far as cruising is concerned, it is probably obvious that I consider the biggest threats to be street crime, and armed burglaries over organized pirate attacks on our modest little boats.

I sound far more alarming in this post than I really intended.  The point I meant to make was that violent crime is not so rare as to not require preparation.  Being aware of your environment goes a long way to being safe; but there are no guarantees. 

However, you might consider that your country is considered gun-mad and hyper-violent. The city I live in is only a few million people, and is nearly paralyzed by a gang-war which has resulted in 50 homicides in the past 10 months, nearly twice the annual average.

(This is somewhat tongue in cheek. As a United Stater here I'm constantly amused by the - mmm, how to say it - excitability of Canadians regarding 'social ills'.)

I actually like these threads to a certain point. I like seeing everyones views and opinions. It makes for some really good reading. I mean that in all honesty also.

Personally, I won't keep a firearm on board.

In the home? Yes.

Marines trained me, and a few bad 3rd world countries tested that training.

Am I confident in my abilities? Very much so.

That being said, there are ALWAYS other options. At the end of the day, its your actions that decide the outcome. Personally, I would use every evasive wait to prevent someone boarding the boat. If on the boat, and I felt myself in danger, I have no doubt in my abilities to make a "few" people "reconsider".

At the end of the day tho, like was said earlier, there are ways to make yourself less of a target. I guess thats another advantage to the "SailFar" mentality. Our small boats aren't as much of a target as that Oyster 56 thats next to you with 4 or 5 Grey hairs on board sipping a cold drink with a pinky finger sticking out!

Hey, Nowell, watch what you say about us "Gray hairs!"

But at least my pinky isn't sticking out--and my 25D isn't exactly an Oyster 56.

Seriously, I tend to agree with those who argue against carrying firearms aboard. Of course I live in Massachusetts, where I just discovered that the two firearms I've been keeping in a locked closet for almost 25 years became illegal at some time while I was living in another state.

I called my local police station to see what I needed to do to get an updated Firearms ID, and discovered that the application (which includes an affadavit stating that I have read and understood the guidelines for the use of deadly force, which had to be witnessed by a third party).

And, the application fee is $100.

Sorry for the rant. All I really wanted to do is sell my two rifles--and I might not be able to do that legally without a FID.

So, forget about cruising with a firearm aboard in foreign waters: Don't bring guns into Massachusetts if you know what's good for you.

--Joe

Quote from: nowell on July 20, 2009, 12:57:02 PM
I actually like these threads to a certain point. I like seeing everyones views and opinions. It makes for some really good reading. I mean that in all honesty also.

Me too.  8)

I still hold to my earlier comments.


  I like cheese.



But I will add that one reason most (many?) (all?)  of these discussions don't come to mush is because most with any sense who do carry guns aboard do not care to broadcast such info across the internet.  Those who do carry and tell are either less cautious or less concerned with the consequences.

Just a thought.

Sending a grog your way for running with the joke! No offense, all in fun!  ;D

Quote from: Oldrig on July 20, 2009, 06:07:30 PM
Hey, Nowell, watch what you say about us "Gray hairs!"

But at least my pinky isn't sticking out--and my 25D isn't exactly an Oyster 56.

...

--Joe

Nowell,

No offense taken! The way my hair is thinning, I'll soon be known only as a graybeard, rather than a "gray hair" anyway.  ;D

--Joe

To me, this just seems like one of those topics, like politics and religion, where emotions rule. No amount of data will convince the people on either side of the argument.

I have always been a tall tent pole type. I go after the large risk factors first and then work my way down the list. With:

Heart Disease at 1 in 5
Cancer at 1 in 7
Stroke at 1 in 24
Motor Vehicle Death at 1 in 84
Suicide at 1 in 119
Falling at 1 in 218

and finally

Firearms at 1 in 314

It seems like I could be much better rewarded in my life by looking at the top 3 or 4 rather than worrying about being shot.

But to each their own. I still think if a person feels they need a gun on board, they probably do. And they should do what they need to to feel safe.

Oh, and I really, really love cheese. Especially in the form of Quesadillas.

Cheers, Bill

Quote from: Bluenose on July 21, 2009, 08:24:41 PM
.......Oh, and I really, really love cheese. Especially in the form of Quesadillas.

Cheers, Bill

Yes, and now you have a grog to enjoy them with.   ;)

It shoulda been red wine! that'll help avoid the increased risk of heart attack (#1) and stroke (#3) related to the cheese quesadillas. Though I suppose either grog or wine might in turn increase the risk of motor vehicle death (#4) and falling (#6)...

Ah well, more grog to you Bluenose!

I have not heard any meantion of black powder weapons. 

I think something like this  http://www.collectorsarmory.com/index.php?p=product&id=2176&parent=160  secured to a bulk head in a decorative fashion.  Just a thought ;)

 :D :D

Did you read that ad? That's a $400 BB gun ;D ;D Uses a percussion cap to fire a BB

Seriously, having used black powder firearms for 20 years in re-enactments and rendezvous, also for hunting, I'd hate to rely on a front stuffer to fire after hanging on a bulkhead in a salt water environment for months, with the same load down bore.

For close range self defense,I still recommend a can of wasp spray- good up to about 20 feet away and completely legal every where.

Quote from: CharlieJ on July 22, 2009, 08:37:03 AM
:D :D

.....I still recommend a can of wasp spray- good up to about 20 feet away and completely legal every where.

  That would get a night invader's attention!

  Sure hope you don't get any on your Cheese Quesadillas though....  ;)

I think black powder weapons would be exempt from most gun-control regimes, although I agree with Charlie that I wouldn't want to have a loaded black-powder weapon stored in a humid marine environment for any length of time.

When I first relocated from Maine to Massachusetts, I went to my local police chief to get a Firearms ID card (a simple process back then). When I started to mention my .50 cal. black-powder rifle, Chief Wilson just laughed. "Oh, that doesn't count," he said.

Who knows if that still applies, even here in Massachusetts.

--Joe

P.S. Wasp spray is good enough for me, too.

One other think about Cheese Quesadillas.  Really hot ones can burn the skin off of the roof of your mouth... maybe something to consider offering an intruder.  Boy, he might think twice about coming back if he could not taste anything for a couple of weeks....  :P

Quote from: Amgine on July 21, 2009, 10:12:32 PM
It shoulda been red wine! that'll help avoid the increased risk of heart attack (#1) and stroke (#3) related to the cheese quesadillas. Though I suppose either grog or wine might in turn increase the risk of motor vehicle death (#4) and falling (#6)...

Ah well, more grog to you Bluenose!

He he. I hate the falling down part. But gota put the heart first.

Quote from: s/v Faith on July 22, 2009, 08:56:32 AM
One other think about Cheese Quesadillas.  Really hot ones can burn the skin off of the roof of your mouth... maybe something to consider offering an intruder.  Boy, he might think twice about coming back if he could not taste anything for a couple of weeks....  :P

Do you need a carry permit for a scalding hot Quesadilla? Kinda adds a new meaning to killer hot sauce.

You need the correct ammo -- Cheese quesadilles ne ed white wine!  ;D

I like my quesadilles with shrimp.

And Cheese.   ;D

They do make large pepper spray containers that will throw the stuff 20-30'.  I had a couple of them down in VA. ;)  Easier and safer to clean up after than wasp spray, which is a pretty nasty chemical, and far more likely to act on the intruders quickly.

Quote from: AdriftAtSea on July 24, 2009, 09:47:19 AM
They do make large pepper spray containers that will throw the stuff 20-30'.  I had a couple of them down in VA. ;)  Easier and safer to clean up after than wasp spray, which is a pretty nasty chemical, and far more likely to act on the intruders quickly.

I bet that would completely mess up the taste of your quesadilles....  :P



;)

After some serious contemplation about this ssue....I have decided my best defence is to come up from below nude. That would be enough to scare anyone off ...or at least make them violently ill. :o

AdriftAtSea,

Do a search on Bear spray, its like pepper spray but shoots out about 50 feet.

Not if you like them spicy. :)

Quote from: s/v Faith on July 24, 2009, 09:50:15 AM
I bet that would completely mess up the taste of your quesadilles....  :P



;)

A lady was filling her tank at a gas station, smoking a cigarette,
even though all the signs say not to. The fumes that came out of
the gas tank ignited, severely burning her hands, and the fire
crawled up her arm.

Instead of rolling on the ground to put it out, she panicked and took off
running down the street.

A police car was at the intersection where it happened, and he tried to stop
her to put out her arm, but she just kept running and screaming. All the
officer could think of doing was to shoot her. This took everyone by surprise.
The officer ran over to her and put the fire out, then called for an
ambulance.

When questioned about his course of action to stop her, the officer said, "My
only thought was to stop her......












....After all, she was waving a fire-arm."

You're crazy.  That was a good one.  I was sitting there reading along so seriously, wondering where that was all going................and then!!  But, she won't do that again.

For those requiring serious anti-pirate protection:
       
www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQqvcqTbUKc


                          :o :o :o

OK, being new here, maybe I shouldn't dredge this topic back up, but sometimes you just gotta say something!



Several of the posts on this topic have been spot on...I like eggs too, and cheese, and cheese in my eggs and quesadillas!

I am just so totally appalled that NO ONE brought up the good ole Bacon Sammich!  ;D

Yes, maybe heart disease is the big killer on that list, but where is the reason to live without bacon? ???  ???

I realize that it cannot be carried for an indefinite period, but bacon should be available in many countries without a permit, so I feel that it is necessary to bring it aboard!

;D

Quote from: dsmastern on August 12, 2012, 05:04:14 PM
OK, being new here, maybe I shouldn't dredge this topic back up, but sometimes you just gotta say something!



Several of the posts on this topic have been spot on...I like eggs too, and cheese, and cheese in my eggs and quesadillas!

I am just so totally appalled that NO ONE brought up the good ole Bacon Sammich!  ;D

Yes, maybe heart disease is the big killer on that list, but where is the reason to live without bacon? ???  ???

I realize that it cannot be carried for an indefinite period, but bacon should be available in many countries without a permit, so I feel that it is necessary to bring it aboard!

;D

It is a scientific fact that without cholesterol a person would die (http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/)...

... just saying.

The facts mam just the facts;

30,000 avg. deaths by firearms per year

600,000 avg deaths by heart disease with high cholesterol

;D  just sayin'  ;)

Quote from: Tim on August 12, 2012, 07:06:31 PM
The facts mam just the facts;

30,000 avg. deaths by firearms per year

600,000 avg deaths by heart disease with high cholesterol

;D  just sayin'  ;)

Are you saying that I should just shoot my bacon sammich and be done with it?  ???

No, not at all, keep eating your bacon sammich and hope somebody shoots you before you die of heart disease ; ;)  :D

Quote from: Tim on August 12, 2012, 07:48:21 PM
No, not at all, keep eating your bacon sammich and hope somebody shoots you before you die of heart disease ; ;)  :D

As long as I can keep my sammich!  ;D

And my eggs and cheese!  :D

I think there's enough US coastline to keep me entertained for the rest of my days. We will probably avoid places where the US constitution isn't in affect. ;) My research tells me that my personal protection permit is honored in most states but ILL, Wisconsin and a few small states on the east coast.
10 years ago I emailed a government office in Florida to fine out if my wife's PPP was good in Florida for a vacation. ( there are online sources for this information now ) I was amused at the reply I got from Florida. The letter said in no uncertain terms ( Your wife and her handgun are very welcome in Florida ) I wish all states had the same attitude towards law abiding citizens.

My sisters a Prosecutor, brother is a deputy and my son is a trooper, they see all sorts of things and deal with a lot of victims. I guess I would just like to have a fighting chance if things go bad instead of standing there waiting to see what kind of mood my attacker is in.
I will say that if sailing outside of US waters I would probably not carry a firearm.
Can anyone explain why a law abiding citizen with a PPP can not enter even a post office while carrying. There is that big sign in the post office that says its a federal offense to be in possession of a firearm on postal property. I have to sadly chuckle at this federal law. I can see the bad guy walking into the post office and seeing this sign and thinking to himself. Ol no I cant shoot someone in here its against the law! I'm sure that sign has saved many lives. If I was a bad guy it would tell me that law abiding citizens wont be armed, this is going to be easy.

To each his own I respect others, when it comes to their decision to carry or not, on a boat or otherwise.

I rather suspect that the sign is there so less people bring guns into the post office. Won't stop someone who arrives with the intention of shooting folks (albeit aren't those mostly employees?  ::)), but will cut down the odds on someone simply having a bad hair day suddenly deciding to start shooting. No gun handy makes that harder to do on spur of the moment.

I don't live in the US, but if I thought I needed a gun to defend myself when visiting a post office I would not go there. and would likely move from the area to somewhere civilised. I appreciate that in some countries in the world that might be a bit of a challenge..........

Once again I will go on record as stating "I like eggs"   ;D :o ::)

And just due to this thread, this afternoon at the grocery, I bought eggs. Looked at the bacon, but passed. I can manage that stuff about once a month, and had some two weeks ago ;D

But I DID buy a  pint of Blue Bell Home Made Vanilla, Made in Brenham Texas, and  rated by a New York magazine as THE best vanilla ice cream in the USA.

Just for fun, some Blue Bell facts, from Wikipedia-


"Blue Bell holds impressive sales figures, being the third best-selling ice cream in the United States, behind Breyers and Edy's/Dreyer's, despite being sold in only 20 states.[11] The sales area includes southern states between Arizona and Florida and Kansas City, an area that comprises only 20% of the ice cream sales geographic market.[12] By comparison, each of Blue Bell's top four competitors sell their products in over 86% of the United States. To become one of the three biggest ice cream manufacturers, Blue Bell has consistently been the top seller in the majority of the markets the company has entered.[6] Within five months of their entry into Baton Rouge, Louisiana, the company had garnered 35% of the ice cream market.[13] In their home state of Texas, the company has a 52% market share."

And this-

"R.W. Apple, Jr. of The New York Times claims that "with clean, vibrant flavors and a rich, luxuriant consistency achieved despite a butterfat content a little lower than some competitors, it hooks you from the first spoonful. Entirely and blessedly absent are the cloying sweetness, chalky texture, and oily, gummy aftertaste that afflict many mass-manufactured ice creams."[8] In 2001, Forbes named Blue Bell the best ice cream in the country."

Not too shabby for "the little creamery in Brenham". The motto is "we eat what we can, and sell the rest"  ;D ;D

Quote from: Frank on August 13, 2012, 06:17:16 PM
Once again I will go on record as stating "I like eggs"   ;D :o ::)

Eggs and cheese go quite nicely together...

and bacon for the wild men among us.

Well, I think that it is past time to add new columns to all member profiles, where we each must declare our position on eggs (are you pro-egg or anti-egg?), and also our favorite ice cream brand and flavor.

They will have to pry my Ben & Jerry's New York Fudge Chunk from my cold dead hand...  ;)

Quote from: s/v Faith on August 13, 2012, 09:30:52 PM

Quote from: Frank on August 13, 2012, 06:17:16 PM
Once again I will go on record as stating "I like eggs"   ;D :o ::)

Eggs and cheese go quite nicely together...

and bacon for the wild men among us.

Gotta take a walk on the Wild Side, 'cause if ya ain't livin' on the edge, you're takin' up too much room!  :D  ;D

I'm pro egg, and proud of it!

And pro cheese...and bacon...and butter...and Ice Cream!  ;)  OK, maybe not all mixed together though!  :P

 ;D ;D

Well- eggs and ice cream kinda morphed away from the thread, (unless you're gonna throw the eggs ;)), so-

In some 7000 miles around the entire lower coast, from Port Isabel Texas, up to Annapolis Maryland, I never ever felt the slightest need to have a firearm aboard.

Carried one on a  previous cruise (early 80's), and never felt it was needed then either.

I own firearms, grew up with them, use them to hunt, but don't even  keep one in the house- all locked in a locker in an outbuilding. Of course where I live I don't bother locking doors at night, or when I drive into town- only when I'll be away for several days

Eggs and bacon every day, sometimes sausage, no cheese for me when melted, it reminds me of epoxy. Some say you never know whats in sausage. That could just be an anti meat conspiracy. ;) But I'm sure it's true about Micky D's sausage.

Chocolate almond is the only ice cream worth bring home Charlie!

Quote from: Sunset on August 14, 2012, 10:48:33 AM

Chocolate almond is the only ice cream worth bring home Charlie!

As long as it's Blue Bell.

I don't even bother if I can't get that. Bought a pint in Key West, sat on curb and ate the whole thing, waiting for a bus to come to take me back to Marathon ;D

I would hope when you got to Marathon, you went to that water side pub at Boot Key harbor and had some conch fritters!!

lol- spent a month anchored in Boot Key Harbor due to weather. We wandered around, and ate many places.

Long walk to the grocery store though :)

Definitely pro-egg. Love bacon. Really like pork in all it's tasty variations.

Blue Bell vanilla ROCKS! It's even better on top of pie.

But back to the thread, I just don't see the need to pack heat. If I didn't need it when I lived in New Orleans, I doubt I will need it on board.

I love to slow smoke ribs on the grill. Usually takes 7 to 8 hours, they must not be dried out and the bone must fall out freely.

As for the heat, If your completely legal, so there is no anxiety over having it, it just doesn't take up any room. No one ever leaves their home thinking I'll be a victim today,  :( it just happens. Just my opinion, to each his own. :)

Charlie there is a Texan that I like, his name is Ron White. A bit vulgar at times but I like his stories.

Canned bacon is available, with long shelf life.  Google search found it, some with 10-year shelf life.

I'm a Bluebell (or Edy's if BB not available) Vanilla guy. Plus I like eggs, bacon, and firearms... but I don't carry.
I might be tempted to turn to my boarding axe in a defensive pinch... and of course, that flare pistol is always there to ruin someone's day. Disclaimer: in accordance with instructions and the law, I am not advocating pointing a flare pistol at anyone or anything, nor would I advocate discharging a flare pistol in any direction except skyward. (honest, sir, I was signalling for help, but my arm was to tired to lift the flare up to the proper angle. I'm really sorry the criminals' boat caught on fire.)
I do have a cutlass, of the 1917-style Navy issue. Quite hefty. Can't imagine swinging it around though. Discretion is the better part of valor, meaning if it seems dangerous, don't go there. Unless there is ice cream to be had, in which case, I'd risk it.
;D

Quote from: tomwatt on August 14, 2012, 10:48:18 PM
I do have a cutlass, of the 1917-style Navy issue. Quite hefty. Can't imagine swinging it around though. Discretion is the better part of valor, meaning if it seems dangerous, don't go there. Unless there is ice cream to be had, in which case, I'd risk it.
;D

A cutlass is on my wish list  8). I already have an axe onboard  :P (actually it's a small chopper - but saying I have a small chopper doesn't sound quite so impressive  :().

I have personally never been in a situation where having a gun would have improved the situation. or would have made people stop being a problem quicker. "back in the day" east of east, those situations have included folks wishing me harm. and then some  ::), some of them wearing uniforms. rarely personal though  8). and I'm still here  ;D.............but nonetheless I do appreciate that being on a boat and sailing into places where you neither know the lay of the land, can't take preventative action before folks become problems and nor can whistle up the 5 Horsemen of the Apocalypse with half a shrug could bring challenges. Personally I favour the pointy stick approach.......and a Cutlass would fit into that, as would a Trident  ;D....couple with not going to the dumb arsed uncivilised places - no matter how cheap the beer.

I thought about the pointy stick idea too...much more effective than attacking with a banana, but you'd still get shot.  :(    ;D

There probably aren't too many pirates that would want to bother with my 42 year old, 22' boat. I think they would go for a better paying target, whether for robbery or kidnapping.

Although, the wasp spray + flare gun, or highly pressurized fuel "leak" + flare gun may be effective.

Avoiding high risk areas is still the best choice though.  8)

I have guns too, and I like to play with them, but I wouldn't take one on the boat either, except for flare guns and maybe a spear gun. I would like to go spear fishing sometime!

Get some fish to go with my eggs!  ;D

Fish and eggs would be great!!!   Good cholesteral to counter the bad!!!!   Very wise!!!!

See, it's not such a bad thread. Good food ideas!  ;D

Well- best forget the spear gun. Can't use it in many places. Such as Bahamas. Think pole spear or Hawaiian sling instead Those are legal.

I'm not sure I would vote for eggs plus worms... that doesn't sound too appetizing to me. Whose idea was it to put worms in the eggs? Does that make the bacon taste like ice cream?
Seriously, in the world of weaponry, it's always about escalation... and the chances of having enough firepower onboard (short of having your own gun deck installed ala U.S.S. Constitution et al) to effectively match with someone is unlikely. It's not worth the bother.
I do not recommend offering the bad guys worms, though. Also, if you are cruising in my vicinity, please only open a can of worms if you think the fish are biting. Then be sure to invite me over for some nice, freshly caught filets!
Plus, aren't there USCG Regs about having firearms aboard? I thought it was already a no-no. Of all the folks I don't care to tick off, the guys with the big stripe on their boats rank right up there.

Quote from: tomwatt on August 15, 2012, 10:04:43 PM

Plus, aren't there USCG Regs about having firearms aboard? I thought it was already a no-no. Of all the folks I don't care to tick off, the guys with the big stripe on their boats rank right up there.

No- perfectly legal as far as USCG is concerned, as long as when they board, you tell them. May not be legal in all states, depending on firearm. But then in some states, that flare pistol is a no-no

Last time I was checked they just wanted to know if you had a firearm on board, Cost guard that is.  Funny how they would go into the quick draw stance when asking.  Then there was no law against an American in good standing having a firearm as per constitution.  Some states have laws but then the court has upheld a persons right to have a firearm in their home as in Washington D.C..  I knew comercial fishermen who always carried firearms and told the coast guard or sherrifs the boat was their home as they "d--- well knew it"  I never botherd carrying as I saw no threat. In Or. Wa. , Northern Cal. or B.C.
Funny how quick we change. L.F. Hershoff thought  boating was a good time for a father to teach his son marksmanship in the 60s.  Toss a can on the water and let your son go for it as it bobs about.  Going out side the U.S. a person better check.  Into the 90's western Canada let you bring a rife or shotgun for devence against bears as you gatherd drift wood or whatever on shore excursions.  Just shouldn't mention defence against crazy Canadians, or any human.

At the annual boat show here in Seattle last January, I asked the USCG f there were any rules stopping me from carrying firearms on board.
Their unanimous answer (4 of them in the booth) was that as long as I was following all the usual state and federal laws concerning firearms ownership, I was fine.
They also mentioned that having a concealed carry permit wouldn't be a bad idea in case I met a Coastie who considered my home just another conveyance, in which case I'd be traveling, etc......
Judging by that response, I'd guess that rules can to some extent be open to individual interpretation.
But I'm not going to give up a hobby just because of a potential bad situation.
If I start doing that, where does it end? Curled up in a box in an alley somewhere mumbling to myself......

rorik,  good reply,  I do like their comment on the "Coastie considering your home just another form of conveyance".  That is what leads to trouble, idndividual officials deciding to add their own interpertation.