Maybe it's just me...but it seems very frequently...almost always!...there's footage of a CG rescue of a "sailboat in distress" during a bad storm, the footage shows a sailboat that seems to all appearances to be riding well in a chop and NOT decks awash and desperate people clinging to a liferaft.
Incidentally, the boats never seem to be boats like Buccs or (gasp) Hunters that the upper echelons of "boating society" always decry as unseaworthy...but they always seem to be large, expensive, capable boats, if not "uberyachts".
I often joke that "running into a bit of muck has made a stockbroker late for his desk Monday morning" when I see these clips. But am I just suffering from selective memory?
Good topic.
I believe that there are a couple things to keep in mind when looking at these stories. There have been a few well publicized incidents lately that have gotten lots of attention.
First, of course, the Capt. is the ultimate (and only) one who bears the responsibility for the safety of his vessel. Yes, his vessel.. and his crew. It is easy (all too easy on the internet) for folks who were not present to second guess the decisions made in the heat of the moment.
Most folks cite the old adage that you should only ever 'climb up into the liferaft'.... that to stay with the vessel is much safer. This advice is supported by the many boats found floating after their crew has been rescued... seemingly undamaged.
I have personally experienced wx underway that caused me to wonder if I would make it through. I was thankful to not be the Capt to have to make the decisions about what to do. One of the common problems to develop in conditions like these are that the crew suffer bruises, broken bones, and head trauma from being tossed around inside a wildly picthing boat.
One bit of safety gear aboard Faith that may seem strange is bicycle helmets. No, they are not aboard right now, but will be for passages. This might sound like overkill (as in FEAR = GEAR) but is really a nod towards my decision not to carry a life raft.
I am rambling off topic here... :P
I think that there are probably a lot of rescues that come from the trend towards folks of means buying boats and going cruising without taking the time of gaining experience. That and the calvary being a mere 'flick of a EPIRB switch away.
Even though I do believe that there are many unnecessary 'rescues' I will also say that I have a real hard time with some folks rush to judgment when examining what happend while sipping their beverage of choice sitting at a keyboard.
Sorry, had more to ramble on about.... ;D
I know of at least one captain who refuses to carry an EPIRB. His reasoning is that he would not ask a rescue crew to endanger their lives to come save his.
I can appreciate this, but I currently have an old 121.5mhz EPIRB (now illegal) aboard Faith, and will probably have a new 406mhz unit aboard soon.
I see it as an absolute last resort. I have a well found boat. My Ariel will withstand much worse seas then I ever want to see. My approach to seamanship is that there is no point where you know 'enough' and I want to learn all I can to help prevent needing to be rescued.
Today I had my boat inspected by the USCG aux. Not that I am not capable of looking at the items myself, but what is the harm in opening yourself and your vessel up to someone eles's objective eye?
I am recovering from a virus, so was not able to do some of the 'projects' I have going on, but spent the remainder of the afternoon playing around with a new brand of waterproof epoxy.... so I will better be able to use it if an when I need it.
Silly things like oversized deck hardware, backing plates, and ground tackle are part of the equation. I believe much of the decision to flip the switch on the EPIRB is made well before one ever leaves the dock.
My objection in these types of cases are not the call for rescue itself, but the coverage by the media - especially the sailing media.
Often, ocean sailing is depicted as a fool's game. Even within the sailing media, there is often an undertone of "it's just bad luck" or "ain't nature a drag sometimes;" gear failures are not usually analyzed as overreliance on non-essentials. A notable exception here, imo, is Ocean Navigator, which generally presents very critical analysis of events described in the articles. (Note, this is usually self-criticism by those that were there).
The Ken Barnes event in recent memory is a good example. My beef is not with Ken, but with how his story was reported. The entire reporting was from a tone that NONE of the need for rescue was because of choices or actions Ken may have made, but it was all the fault of the storm and various gear failures. Maybe Ken made ALL the right choices and took ALL the right actions under the circumstances, but I'd like to at least hear the questions asked. This is important because I would like to learn from his experience as much as I can; with the discussion focused on what happened TO him, I cannot easily gauge what ACTIONS he took that were right or wrong.
And yes, I agree that for some, the decision to activate the EPIRB is made before they leave the dock.
BTW, does anyone have any stats on cases where an EPIRB, that holy grail of at-sea safety nets, has not helped? I know of one case: when the Fantome was lost off Honduras in hurricane Mitch, no EPIRB signal was ever detected. 31 people were lost with her, including one man I knew briefly from my trip to Grenada (Second Mate Onassis Reyes). Others?
The reason I ask is that to me, at least, such cases emphasize that you cannot "rely" on even an EPIRB to guarantee your safe return to land. I'm not suggesting that everyone who carries one has the view that it can, but I would bet that there are a few who do. I still have not decided about carrying one; I probably will eventually. I'm curious to see how long it is until they are mandatory equipment.
There was a catamaran lost off the Oregon coast last year during a delivery... the EPIRB was in a locked cabinet in the cabin... and was never used. The delivery crew and captain are still listed as missing, presumed dead.
My question is this... if the crew and captain don't of a boat trigger an EPRIB, but it malfunctions and they aren't rescued... who is going to be around to report that it didn't work properly??? Kind of like asking about liferaft inflation problems... if you need the liferaft and it doesn't inflate, it's a bit late to be calling the manufacturer about the problem...and you probably won't be around to get it fixed under warranty.
It's a good question. In the case of the Fantome, it has never been resolved. The ship carried several EPIRBs; notable was the one attached to the deckhouse in a fashion that was supposed to make it "automatic" - automatic deployment and activation. It's signal was never detected.
One theory is that the ship was catastrophically destroyed - a transmission by Captain March was cut-off right after he reported an unusually large wave - and all EPIRBs went down with her. Under this theory, the crew had no time to deploy and even the automatic one didn't get activated until completely submerged.
If the crew is lost overboard and the EPIRB remains on the boat, of course the EPIRB won't help in that case. I'm sure we could brainstorm other scenarios for which a beacon is useless. There is no holy grail, and there is no true safety net. Belt-n-suspenders, 'security in depth' is a sound approach, but having the attitude "well, if I get into trouble, I'll just activate the EPIRB" is not.
My $0.02.
The story I tell when illustrating the merits and lacks of Epirbs is the story of Tony Bullimore. His boat got trashed and capsized by a wave in the Southern Ocean, effectively beyond the rescue range of anything that could actually get to him.
Any sort of rescue was going to be a major operation of the navy....and frankly, the problem with epirbs is that they keep sending whether you are alive or dead. The powers that be were pretty much saying "effective survival time int hos conditions is measured in two hours if he was in his survival suit, about 10 minutes if he wasn't. Chances are that he is already dead and it is just the automatically activated beacon that we will find, even if he isn't dead yet, the very fastest we can get there is about 3 days, maybe four. He will most definately be dead by then. An operation to get a frigate out there will cost in excess of $2M and put at risk more then 100 crew on board the vessel, and the vessel itself"...etc
Bullimore, who is a whily bastage, even if he is a poop sailor, meanwhile was running similar scenarious in his head and decided that just sitting there was not likely tobring the cavalry.
So he turned OFF the EPIRB for five minutes. Then he turned it on for five minutes. Then he turned it off for four minutes, then he turned it on four four minutes, then for three. then two, then repeat. Then he let it run for about 6 hours while he tried to sleep, then he repeated the 5,4,3,2 sequence every 4 hours.
Now the thing with epoirbs is that they are either on or off, they certainly never do anything like what was happening on automatic. So the guy had to be alive, and since the cycle was playing out four hour after hour, he had to be somewhere safe enough and life preserving enough that the possibility of him still being alive in 3 days time had to be a solid possibility.
So the rescue was launched.
It did indeed cost around $3M to pull one idiot off a boat, the frigate got badly damaged in trying to maintain speed in the seway conditions and the bow effectively needed to be cut off and replaced when the ship came home. But the guy got rescued, and he likely would not have been if the EPIRB had just been left to run as a dumb beacon.
Alex.
EPIRBs are supposed to float... so even if the ship went down, in theory , the EPIRB should have floated free...
I fully agree that being properly prepared, in your training, skills and attitude, is the most important part of setting off in a small sailboat. Having the mindset of "If I get into trouble, I'll just set off the EPIRB" is really not a good idea.... and puts both you and your possible rescuers at far more risk. Also, whether to use an EPIRB is really a situational thing... at least in my opinion. I can see some situations where I may have an EPIRB, but decide not to use it.
Quote from: AdriftAtSea on February 18, 2007, 11:17:00 PM
EPIRBs are supposed to float... so even if the ship went down, in theory , the EPIRB should have floated free...
Okay, so why was an EPIRB signal never detected from the
Fantome? She was 282 feet long and did not "just disappear." The EPIRB was SUPPOSED to float free and automatically activate - which was entirely my point. Such a thing is false security at worst, or of dubious security at best.
Satellite Phone Transcription 16:30, 27 October, 1998 (taken from
The Ship and the Storm by Jim Carrier):
Captain March: "That was a big one."
Michael Burke (Miami): "Is it falling off? Is is shedding?"
March: "Yes, that's not the prob...."
That's it. No other comm from her. None of the EPIRBs activated, including the one on the deckhouse designed to go automatically (might it have been moved or otherwise rendered unfunctional?). Very little debris was later found - some lifejackets, a piece of wooden railing. Nothing was found that provides insight into what happened to her.
Case in point, perhaps:
Satori, the Westsail 32 which was made famous in
The Perfect Storm movie as the sailboat people were rescued from when it was 'in danger'. When post-TPS she was found washed ashore in Massachusets, lying unsecured on deck was the owners ditch bag, which had been left behind during the rescue.
QuoteRay decided to obey the Coast Guard's order and abandon his vessel. He unhooked his safety harness, headed below and packed his passport, money, camera, and the valuables he could grab into a waterproof orange bag which he tied to the front of his lifejacket. Knowing that he was turning over all responsibility to the Coast Guard, Ray opened the liquor locker and toasted a farewell to Satori, tucked his prized bottle of Gossling's Bermuda rum into his foul weather jumper, and then proceeded back on deck. He noted Satori's position and course so he would know where to search for her.
Back on deck Ray unharnessed the crew, placed life jackets on them and himself and arranged everyone on the outer rail of the leeward side. Ray directed Karen and Susan to jump backwards into the water. As Ray jumped into the water the waterproof orange bag caught in the rigging, was torn off his life jacket, and landed on deck. Satori's four foot freeboard and the waves made it impossible to get back on deck. The bag would apparently be washed overboard with the next boarding wave.
That bag - and the boat it rested on - made it through "the perfect storm" just fine, even after the people were taken off.
QuoteWhile the specially equipped plane searched for Satori 25 miles off shore, another smaller plane Ray had hired was combing the nearby beaches. The smaller plane spotted her on the beach at Maryland's Assateaque State Park. At the same time State Park rangers also found Satori. The orange waterproof bag of personal belongings, which had been torn off in the evacuation, was still on the deck.
To the skippers credit, in my mind: it was *not* he who triggered the EPIRB, and in fact he says it was done without his consent - he'd been through similar storms, and knew that his boat would make it out fine. But when the USCG shows up to a distress call, you have no other option but to leave with them.
Satori (http://nelie.hocking.edu/~geckler_e/SATORI/satori.html)
Quote from: CapnK on February 19, 2007, 12:26:57 PM
But when the USCG shows up to a distress call, you have no other option but to leave with them.
Is that really true? Didn't Neal challenge that idea?
Thoughts:
(1) Neal was not an American citizen at the time was he? If not, would he fall under the same jurisdiction in International Waters?
(2) I've seen some discussion of the possibility of losing your ticket if licensed (even OUPV) if you disobey ANY order of the CG. Wasn't Ray licensed at the time, and could that have factored in his ultimate decision to abandon? What about non-licensed skippers of ANY nationality in International Waters - have to abandon if requested?
Dunno about your #2, but though the USCG was in contact with Neal via radio, he had not triggered an EBURP, had not otherwise asked for rescue, and they had not gone out to the scene via boat or chopper.
They were demanding that he allow them to come rescue him as I remember, but I think he basically told them he didn't *need* rescuing, and wouldn't allow it until he absolutely *did*.
At the time he was a SA citzen; he only became an o-fficial, card-carrying, full fledged US citizen last year, IIRC.
Quote from: CapnK on February 19, 2007, 01:30:56 PM
Dunno about your #2, but though the USCG was in contact with Neal via radio, he had not triggered an EBURP, had not otherwise asked for rescue, and they had not gone out to the scene via boat or chopper.
EBURP? Is that like Internet reflux or something? ;D ;D
Okay, I gotcha. You were saying if you "ASK" for rescue (explicit May Day call or indirect by activating an EPIRB) ya gotta go. That makes perfect sense. I assume in the case of accidental EPIRB activation, the issue can be settle by radio before they 'arrive' on scene?
Ray's version of the story was on the net for a long time, but has now been taken down.
Yes- he was afraid he would lose his captains ticket if he didn't abandon- In fact, he claims he was told that, which is why he finally went.
He KNEW the boat was doing fine- it was two paniced crew who done the deed and he couldn't "undo" it.
The real Satori was here in our marina for quite some time a few years ago with her new owners aboard. I believe she's now in Corpus Christi. VERY solid, well equipped boat.
Had some personal exeperience in this department in the last week of November/first week of December '06 during a bad Northerly in the Sea of Cortez, MX. Crossing singlehand aboard my Westerly Nomad from Puerto Escondido to San Carlos when I got 16 miles outside the SC entrance when the wind went from a Southerly component to a fierce Northerly preventing me from making port. The weather did not take me by surprise, however, I was expected in San Carlos so I radioed in to relay to a friend that I was 16 miles out, but was deciding to run off shore to heave to for the duration. So far so good.
To make a long story short the individual that I made contact with ended up wanting to maintain contact so I agreed (my mistake) and kept in contact as long as I could which was about a day and a half. Here is where it goes wrong. After I fell out of radio range, despite the fact my transmissions indicated that everything was going well, the community in SC panicked and called the US Coast Guard (who refused help thank goodness) and eventually the Mexican Navy who eventually found me (even after having me call them off twice) and who forceably made me abandon my boat after about an hour and a halfs arguing.
Here is my point: Even if the Captain/Crew is ok, in good physical and mental health, and the boat is doing well in bad conditions, others still have plenty of control over your situation and you may have none. It is just another aspect of being out on the water. Just know that it happens and, like other on the water hazards, take precautions to mitigate it happening to you.
CgoingGal,
Glad you are here. Welcome aboard. I am very sorry to hear about that happening.
You have a rating of two grog, and have made a total of one post.....
...probably has to do with the content.
Maybe it raises another advantage of small boat sailing... the smaller radar crosssection makes it a little harder for the 'authorities' to find you to make you abandon ship against your will.... :P
Althought with a 22' boat you were not very visable.... ???
I would like to hear more about this, and I look forward to your future posts.
Quote from: cgoinggal on March 07, 2007, 12:05:18 PM
Had some personal experience in this department in the last week of November/first week of December '06 during a bad Northerly in the Sea of Cortez, MX. Crossing singlehand aboard my Westerly Nomad from Puerto Escondido to San Carlos when I got 16 miles outside the SC entrance when the wind went from a Southerly component to a fierce Northerly preventing me from making port. The weather did not take me by surprise, however, I was expected in San Carlos so I radioed in to relay to a friend that I was 16 miles out, but was deciding to run off shore to heave to for the duration. So far so good.
To make a long story short the individual that I made contact with ended up wanting to maintain contact so I agreed (my mistake) and kept in contact as long as I could which was about a day and a half. Here is where it goes wrong. After I fell out of radio range, despite the fact my transmissions indicated that everything was going well, the community in SC panicked and called the US Coast Guard (who refused help thank goodness) and eventually the Mexican Navy who eventually found me (even after having me call them off twice) and who forceably made me abandon my boat after about an hour and a halfs arguing.
Here is my point: Even if the Captain/Crew is ok, in good physical and mental health, and the boat is doing well in bad conditions, others still have plenty of control over your situation and you may have none. It is just another aspect of being out on the water. Just know that it happens and, like other on the water hazards, take precautions to mitigate it happening to you.
I too would be very interested in how the Mexican Navy "encouraged" your rescue.....what happened to your boat?
>Maybe it raises another advantage of small boat sailing... the smaller radar >cross-section makes it a little harder for the 'authorities' to find you to make you >abandon ship against your will....
One of the things that I discovered in the fiasco was that my boat showed up on radar on the small Mexican "Go Fast" in 25 foot seas (which is what they were at more or less when I was picked up) for a little over 7 miles. I was impressed tho saddened as I watched my 'blip' dissapear and along with it my life, my home, my dreams, and my accomplishments.
I would like to point out about what you said about the 'authorities'. In this case, the 'authorities' were a helicopter crew of two and a 'Go Fast' crew of four young men. If I could have I would have made it possible for them to find me a minute after leaving port as opposed to the two days it took them in reality. When the small aluminum go fast finally found me 3 out of the 4 crew members required serious medical care which I administered to them for 2 hours after being picked up (I work as a medic as well). They had no business being out in those conditions in the boat they were in which was not designed for those kind of seas-steep, close, breaking sets to 30 feet and winds sustained at 65 k for 4 days with gusts to 80 k. That is one of my main problems with what happened, that the people that took it upon themselves to call in the MayDay had no clue what the consequences of something like that can be and/or are.
I do everything I can to show up on radar, if not for my safety, then for that of other's. I realize that you were saying that in jest and am taking it so, but feel that the reality of the situation is important to understand. :)
And, for the record, Andunge was on her own for a mere 13 hours and traveled less than 13 miles in that time. She was picked up by a Mexican Navy Gun Ship and towed 300 miles south to Topolobompo (to go North would have been into the seas which they correctly deemed a bad idea). Did I mention that it was a 76 meter Gun Ship.
I have some great photographs of Andunge behind the behemoth when I went south to pick her up.
Ultimately the story has a happy ending!!!! I am truly blessed! :D
Recently read an article about radar reflectors, and it pointed out that even though a higher-mounted radar reflector will increase the distance you are visible at, it may not work as well as they approach you. The article seemed to indicate that the most effective height for a radar reflector is about 16' above the water, due to the physics of the radar signal propagation.
cgoinggal-
I'm glad it worked out for you... you could have easily lost your boat, which would have been a real shame. I like the westerly boats, but they're a bit rare on this side of the pond.
(...or should that be "EBurp"? ;) )
Thankfully, an older EPIRB than the one being relied upon (... ::)) still worked, and allowed the CG to make a rescue...
Story here, along with lots of other Eburp info:
http://robinstorm.blogspot.com/2007/07/webexclusive-epirbs-and-sv-sean-seamour.html
...and here's the log of the vessel which sunk off the NC coast during TS Andrea earlier this year:
http://artseaprovence.blogharbor.com/blog/_archives/2007/6/27/3049534.html
That page is interesting, but some of the information on the page is wrong.
Not all modern 406 MHz EPIRBs have a GPS receiver... in fact the majority do not. They've also neglected to mention that EPIRBs are required to have a operating life of 48 hours and have a strobe light, which aids in the rescuers locating the EPIRB at night or in bad weather.
EPIRBs are designed to float and operate while floating in the water. IIRC, the EPIRB ID is registered to an MMSI as well as a particular vessel or boat. Also, IIRC, an FCC ship's station license is not required for ship's that are operating domestically—but is required for ship's not operating domestically. Domestic operation is defined by the FCC as:
QuoteShips are considered as operating domestically when they do not travel to foreign ports or do not transmit radio communications to foreign stations. Sailing in international waters is permitted, so long as the previous conditions are met. If you travel to a foreign port (e.g., Canada, Mexico, Bahamas, British Virgin Islands) a license is required. Additionally, if you travel to a foreign port, you are required to have an operator permit as described in Section III.
AFAICT, even if you sail only in US waters, but communicate with a stations in a foreign country—ie. Canada or Mexico as an example—you would still be required to have a ship's station license.
FYI—PLBs are similar to EPIRBs but generally do not have an integrated strobe and are only required to operate for 24 hours. They are also available with or without an integrated GPS. However, PLBs are generally required to be held out of the water to work effectively, where EPIRBs work floating on the surface. Finally, PLBs are registered to a single person, with no information about the type of vessel or craft that they may be on—and can be used by hikers, skiers, and almost any outdoor activity enthusiast, not just boaters.
If you need/want an EPIRB for just a short voyage, BoatUS does have an EPIRB rental program.
Early this week the local news channel here in New England carried a short story of a single hander rescued off the Bahamas by a passing freighter. He had sailed from the Canaries. They showed some footage of the rescue as well as some footage he must have shot from on board during the crossing.
No details on what happened and why he had to be rescued (the boat sank), how big a boat, etc.
Does anybody have the complete story on this one?
MrBill
Are you talking about William Archer??
Here's the story that was on the Lat 38 site (http://www.latitude38.com/lectronic/lectronicday.lasso?date=2008-01-09&dayid=56).
QuoteMeanwhile, near the Bahamas, William Archer, 32, was rescued from his sinking 39-ft sailboat Alchemy on January 3 by the crew of the tanker Omega Lady Sarah. Archer, a Ft. Lauderdale sailing instructor, was singlehanding Alchemy from the Cape Verde Islands, bound for Antigua, when a storm shredded two of his sails and broke his boom early in his voyage. He continued getting battered by storms until he reached the Bahamas, where his engine failed and the boat began taking on water at an alarming rate. Spotting the Omega Lady Sarah on the 42nd day of his ill-fated trip, Archer fired a flare, catching the tanker's attention. After being plucked from his liferaft, which was tethered to his sinking boat, he told the crew he hadn't eaten solid food in a week. He was taken to a Nassau hospital for evaluation and released.
Bill - Some info here:
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/22573279/
Not sure if there is anything there more than you've seen already.
I'm interested in finding a liferaft rental for the scoot. any suggestions? Boat Us has a good program for a epirb and will ship them with a few days notice. I normally don't carry these items but will for the scoot. I wonder if you have to pay haz mat charges to ship a liferaft? Local Knowledge? What are you other scooters going to do?
jim
I haven't figured it out yet, myself; but will probably be carrying both a rental EPIRB and raft. And almost as certainly a SPOT, though that will be primarily for position reporting to my family.
Check with your local liferaft service facility. They often have "loaner" rafts that they will rent out and you will save the expense of shipping a raft.
Godot - I plan on carrying a spot also. Family wants to keep an eye on me heh- heh.
Bill NH - We don't have any "local" liferaft servicing going on. This isn't the middle of nowhere but if you go a couple rungs up on the water tower you can see it from here. Nearest Worst Marine is over a hundred miles. Good idea though we will look around next time we go south for paint & parts.
I was just interested in making an arrangement early before the rush. Wouldn't want to bump into a show stopper at the last moment.
thanks
jim
If you have the spot and a good dingy, even a bad one, why do you need to play with life raft and a epirb. The spot is just like the epirb but with a better build if you ask me. The epirb is just a general distress radio single that is very strong. Lets face it if you have the time to use a life raft you probally have time to hop into your dingy. When I was active duty we had a guy fall over board and not a soul noticed until muster the next morning (13 hours) this guy had a Spot with him had set it off and the coast guard picked him up during the night "Thank God for inflatable vests." and when we were doing ship over board drills we set up a life raft (now remember Military here) only about 30% of us could get into the dang thing and out of the 30% all of us where absolute misable in about 20 mins. There is no floor in a life raft just a layer of plastic that bye the time your in it is covered in water don't worry they gave you a sponge about the size of your hand to bale... If I may make a suggestion get a cheapy dingy like one from Sevylor fill the air chambers with spray foam (obviously water proof) and us that as your tender and life raft when your done sell it for nothing or trash it when you back and you spent 50-60 bucks for something with a real bottom with sides and if you get a hole in it who cares (holes in a life raft and you now in the water with plastic all around you) still floats and you can actually move it around with a paddle. This is what I as planing on using via dealing with the "top of the line" in the military and seeing just how "great" they really are. Just toss a Mre (10,000 + cal)or 2 in there some water (this is what will kill you before anything else), pin flares and a couple of glow sticks and a hand held radio keep your spot on you at all times make sure your tied off to your boat keep a knife handy and you better off then a dingy. Just thought I would toss my 2 cents in.
Instead of an EPIRB I may look at a PLB. I have been told (but have not confirmed) that they are just about as effective and the price is lower and decreasing. I dunno. If for whatever reason I can't rent an EPIRB (BoatUS is supposed to be a good source) maybe I'd buy one of these instead. At this point, due to a bunch of mixed reviews, I'm not sure I'm comfortable using SPOT as a primary safety device. That may change before 2010.
If I couldn't get a raft, that would not be show stopper; but it would make my wife unhappy. Buying a new marine raft is out of the question. Too expensive for a one shot deal. A very quick Google brought up http://www.landrigancorp.com/products-liferafts.htm#rentals and http://www.lrse.com/rentals/index.html and http://www.survivalproductsinc.com/rental.html. I'm sure there are many others.
It is very tempting to use a dinghy as life raft; but unless it has some kind of quick compressed air inflation I don't see how I could count on getting it inflated in time (most time spent on a sinking boat would probably be concerned with stopping it from sinking; or, if it was sinking very fast, I don't see how I'd have time to inflate a dinghy). If it was a hard dinghy (with plenty of flotation) or a permanently inflated inflatable (with air or foam), I'd have a real hard time finding a place to keep it. I'm not towing offshore.
For just a little more than the cost of a one month rental (guessing around $20/day or $600/month), it might be worth considering the One Man Life Raft (http://www.sportys.com/acb/showdetl.cfm?DID=19&Product_ID=10967#desc). Spending 30 days alone in a raft like this would be brutal beyond belief; but assuming an activated EPIRB would bring help within a day or two, it's better than drowning. Actually, now that I think about it, in conjunction with an EPIRB or PLB this might be the best SHTF gear to meet my needs.
I'm concerned very much about getting into a raft (I've heard the horror stories). But when things go FUBAR we can only do the best we can do.
My opinions are evolving and may change, perhaps drastically, in the next 15 months.
(I may need to take a second job to finance this stuff)
;) Don't we all need a second job to finace these things. I was just trying to come up with a kiss solution for you and one that is much cheaper. I have used the foam dingy before just tow it behind and all I have to do grab the rope cut the line and cry as the boat sinks then pull yourself in and tada back in a boat. Better then nothing (because that is what he had before) and lets face it if your sailing and plan to anchor out you need a dingy so cheap is good (if the dingy grows legs no big deal get another one and go from there) P.S. Friends boat in Lake Erie 2007 not fun to watch he and I hoped in the dingy/raft at this point 2 hours of rowing and back on dry land. The boat sunk in 28 feet of water and was retrieved 3 days later his keel bolts where leaking badly. I heard his pump going asked him about it he told me not to worry(Ya that will never happen again). Someone remembered to grab a gps and mark it ;D
The Spot messenger is not a replacement for an EPIRB. First of all, modern EPIRBs are far more durable and broadcast on the 121.5 MHz SAR frequencies, so that SAR aircraft and boats can more easily locate you. The Spot messenger does not have this capability. Second, EPIRBs are designed to tolerate far more abuse and hostile conditions than the Spot is.
Quote from: Navyvet on January 15, 2009, 10:59:12 AM
If you have the spot and a good dingy, even a bad one, why do you need to play with life raft and a epirb. The spot is just like the epirb but with a better build if you ask me. The epirb is just a general distress radio single that is very strong. Lets face it if you have the time to use a life raft you probally have time to hop into your dingy. When I was active duty we had a guy fall over board and not a soul noticed until muster the next morning (13 hours) this guy had a Spot with him had set it off and the coast guard picked him up during the night "Thank God for inflatable vests." and when we were doing ship over board drills we set up a life raft (now remember Military here) only about 30% of us could get into the dang thing and out of the 30% all of us where absolute misable in about 20 mins. There is no floor in a life raft just a layer of plastic that bye the time your in it is covered in water don't worry they gave you a sponge about the size of your hand to bale... If I may make a suggestion get a cheapy dingy like one from Sevylor fill the air chambers with spray foam (obviously water proof) and us that as your tender and life raft when your done sell it for nothing or trash it when you back and you spent 50-60 bucks for something with a real bottom with sides and if you get a hole in it who cares (holes in a life raft and you now in the water with plastic all around you) still floats and you can actually move it around with a paddle. This is what I as planing on using via dealing with the "top of the line" in the military and seeing just how "great" they really are. Just toss a Mre (10,000 + cal)or 2 in there some water (this is what will kill you before anything else), pin flares and a couple of glow sticks and a hand held radio keep your spot on you at all times make sure your tied off to your boat keep a knife handy and you better off then a dingy. Just thought I would toss my 2 cents in.
I wouldn't recommend using a spot in place of an epirb - but just as a way to let the family follow along. I'd like to do things the right way and rent a life raft all set up - inspected & ready to go.
But if these 4 man liferafts rent for 600 a month I'll just buy one & be done with it. As I'll be needing one for 3-4 months. Anyone on the net have experience renting one?
jim
Just as a thought, how about buying a raft (maybe used) and selling it when you get back?
The disadvantage of buying a used liferaft is that you would probably want to unpack it, have it inspected and repacked, and that alone may cost a significant amount. With a rental, the rental company should be doing and paying for the upacking, inspection and re-packing on a regular basis. IF they aren't you probably wouldn't want to be renting from them.
Quote from: Auspicious on January 15, 2009, 07:52:38 PM
Just as a thought, how about buying a raft (maybe used) and selling it when you get back?
Ah Hah! - I like that idea. If all goes as planned I can sell a new one as almost new and unused after the scoot. If it don't go as planned then I don't care much about the extra cost when I inflate & climb aboard.
Thanks Auspicious and a grog for ya.
jim
Do bear in mind that there are levels of life rafts. There are the true offshore rafts, but there's also the "coastal" rafts, which don't have all the bells and whistles, are somewhat lighter and cost significantly less ( and are smaller packages)
I recently looked at one that was around 600 or 700 bucks, brand new, ready to go.
Quote from: AdriftAtSea on January 15, 2009, 01:46:15 PM
The Spot messenger is not a replacement for an EPIRB. First of all, modern EPIRBs are far more durable and broadcast on the 121.5 MHz SAR frequencies, so that SAR aircraft and boats can more easily locate you. The Spot messenger does not have this capability. Second, EPIRBs are designed to tolerate far more abuse and hostile conditions than the Spot is.
Someone always brings this up when you mention the SPOT and for the most part it is bogus. The SPOT can work if you are in it's coverage area which we will be. It transmits a signal to the GEOS International Emergency Response Center which contacts the appropriate agencies be they shore based or seaborne and stays in contact until the situation is resolved. Once activated in 911 mode the SPOT continues to transmit a position update every few minutes until deactivated. Battery life is long, mine has been in use for 6 months (although not continuously) and is still functioning on the original batteries so if a new set are installed at the beginning of the run you should be in good shape for the duration. There is also a reasonable $100K insurance policy for any charges relating to any rescue which goes for < $8 for the first year. SPOT gives you the ability to do a less than all or nothing request for help. You can contact your shore-based support without involving the various government agencies. Oh and did I mention it will let people track your piston? So if you are suddenly incapacitated and can't activate your 911 function or EPIRB and your position starts to drift around it would soon become obvious to anyone with access to your findmespot page. In fact when I was approaching Reedville Virginia people came out to meet me. I was surprised, but was informed that everyone knew exactly where I was. I had forgotten that there were more people than just my Spouse watching my SPOT track.
That said, EPIRB systems range in price from around $200 on up with batteries that will operate from 24 to 48 hours according to a quick check on West Marine's site. If you can afford one go for it, but if you want a solution that gives you more capabilities the SPOT is worth considering, after all what do both an EPIRB and SPOT do? Transmit your position to emergency responders. In fact it seems to me the most affordable and broadest coverage solution might be a combination of a SPOT and one of the less expensive "personal" EPIRB systems. Then, you might consider a SPOT and a waterproof handheld VHF (which is what I have, both of which clip to my PFD).
Keep in mind that thousands of people successfully sail to the Caribbean every year with no such device and we are not talking the Vendee Globe here. I, for one, am not heading out regardless of the weather. I live on my boat and plan on doing so for a long time so putting her in unnecessary jeopardy is not going to happen.
...and actually, modern EBURP's are mandated to use the 406mHz freq, not 121.5. That freq will no longer be monitored by the satellites as of the end of this month.
Lotta info here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPIRB#Phase-out_of_121.5_.26_243_beacons
Thanks, Joe, for clarifying the SPOT based on your experience with it.
Grog to ya, and continued Fair Winds.
An exploration of convolution:
Up above, in a prior post, Adam/Godot mentioned needing to be able to inflate a dinghy fast, if/in case it needed to be used as a liferaft...
That made me think of the CO2 bike tire inflators (one example here (http://www.genuineinnovations.com/bikeprods.aspx)), and a cheap plastic/PVC raft, like a Seyvlor (sp?). But I don't think that a little CO2 cartridge has enough oomph to fill a whole raft... ;)
And the fill valves on an inflatable dinghy are much bigger than those of a bike tire.
But those thoughts led to this:
What other way is there to carry enough compressed gas to inflate a whole inflatable?
I've seen some guys use ex-welding tanks to power waterguns (neat idea, but wayyy off topic ;D), something like that could be rigged.
But then I realized we all probably have one of those aboard, sort of - our fire extinguisher.
:o
I bet you could stick a fire extinguisher nozzle into an inflatable valve and get most of the needed inflation pretty much right away... lol
If I was rich enough to have a potential throw-away inflatable (because it might be junk after this experiment), I think that would be a neat thing to check out for feasability.
As it is, the idea will have to remain a thought exercise.
But I bet it would work... ;)
Hmm, might be time for more coffee, and finish waking up, before posting more... ;D
The larger CO2 cartridges in inflatable PFDs might work better. Don't know, but they are a good bit larger
One word Paintball I think a paintball tank will have enough pressure to fill a raft and if you have a compesser you can fill even the cheap co2 tanks with normal air just can't put co2 back in afterwards. I know alot of players that have carbon wraped tanks with special coustom made this or that with them and you can get a regulator for a PB tank pretty easy along with gauges for pressure and cheaper then a fire extinguisher just another thought.
Quote from: CapnK on January 17, 2009, 08:50:05 AM
I bet you could stick a fire extinguisher nozzle into an inflatable valve and get most of the needed inflation pretty much right away... lol
If I was rich enough to have a potential throw-away inflatable (because it might be junk after this experiment), I think that would be a neat thing to check out for feasability.
As it is, the idea will have to remain a thought exercise.
But I bet it would work... ;)
I suspect the rapid cooling caused by the expansion of the CO2 out of the extinguisher would freeze the PVC of the inflatable to the point where it would probably crack... after all, remember how effective CO2 extinguishers are for chilling cold beverages! ;D
I respectfully disagree with Joe about the use of Spot for emergency location. The Globalstar network that Spot depends on is notorious for holes in coverage. The Spot unit may be transmitting a 911 "call" that doesn't get picked up and forwarded.
I have followed a couple of people using Spot for whom tracking dropped out for extended periods (many hours not many days).
When I bought my EPIRB three years ago I got a great price at life-raft.com . I haven't comparison shopped since then so I don't know if they are still the lowest price around.
I have held back in replying to this thread, but I want to add a couple of items for consiceration.
I had an Avon Offshore life raft, but sold it after I figured out it had no place aboard Faith. The hard valance was it's undoing, but frankly was not interested in the soft cases either.
Before you go out and buy one, give a thought to where you are going to stow it. You may decide that it is better to invest in making your craft more seaworthy (I like CaptK's idea).
Then the EPIRB issue. We did not carry one (well a current one anyway) aboard Faith. We had an old 243mhz unit that came with the boat (probably did not work anyway). Of course we promptly threw it away on the date they became "illegal" like all good law abiding citizens. ::)
We have not purchased one, and while I am not going to say I never will I will say that I (like others on this site) have a tough time with the idea that someone else should put themselves in harms way if my poor judgment puts me and my crew there.
It is a very personal decision, and I do not advocate one side or the other for anyone else. I do think the decision has merit, and anyone who brings one of these things aboard must consider carefully exactly when and under what circumstances they would use it.
Just one Sailors opinion.
CapnK—
You might want to read up on modern Category 1 & 2 EPIRBs. From the ACR GlobalFix EPIRB
specification sheet (http://www.acrelectronics.com/globalfix/GlobalFixspec.pdf):
Quote5 watts ± 2dB (406MHz) / 50 mW ± 3dB (121.5 MHz)
While the primary emergency signal, including position information and the ID of the EPIRB is on 406 MHz,
they still do have a SART transponder function that operates on 121.5 MHz. Just because they're phasing out 121.5 MHz EPRIBs, doesn't mean that the new ones don't broadcast on 121.5 MHz. :)
Quote from: CapnK on January 17, 2009, 07:57:13 AM
...and actually, modern EBURP's are mandated to use the 406mHz freq, not 121.5. That freq will no longer be monitored by the satellites as of the end of this month.
Lotta info here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPIRB#Phase-out_of_121.5_.26_243_beacons
Also, IIRC, the Spot Messenger doesn't contact GEOS directly per Joe's post, but contacts Spot and Spot relays the information to GEOS, per this
article (http://solution.allthingsd.com/20080130/phoning-home-without-a-phone/), which says:
QuoteThe 911 and Help automatic notifications will always override less urgent messages like OK/Check or SPOTcasting. In the case of the 911 and Help buttons, one can be pressed after the other and the messages for both will still go out at the same time. The 911 button will send a message every five minutes until power runs out (the company says this will last for up to seven days) or until the message is canceled; Help sends a message every five minutes for an hour or until canceled.
The 911 button is more serious. When pressed, SPOT Inc. automatically notifies a certified 911 company called the GEOS International Emergency Response Center, which contacts your specified emergency contacts first to see if they know anything about your situation before dispatching a rescue squad using your coordinates.
I've sent an e-mail to SPOT asking for clarification, specifically, if the Spot Messenger device contact GEOS directly via satellite or whether SPOT's ground stations contact GEOS after receiving a 911 message, as their website and literature don't really make it clear which is the actual mechanism for the 911 feature on the Spot Messenger.
Quote from: Joe PyratIt transmits to a signal to the GEOS International Emergency Response Center which contacts the appropriate agencies be they shore based or seaborne and stays in contact until the situation is resolved.
Quote from: Auspicious on January 17, 2009, 04:29:51 PM
I respectfully disagree with Joe about the use of Spot for emergency location. The Globalstar network that Spot depends on is notorious for holes in coverage. The Spot unit may be transmitting a 911 "call" that doesn't get picked up and forwarded.
I have followed a couple of people using Spot for whom tracking dropped out for extended periods (many hours not many days).
Globalstar is known to have some issues. findmespot.com addresses them in their FAQ.
Quote
Q: I've heard SPOT uses Globalstar's network and they are having problems, how does this affect SPOT?
A: SPOT does not use Globalstar's 2-way voice technology. We use their simplex constellation which our extensive testing shows 99.6% reliability.
Is 99.6% true and accurate? I guess I have to take them at their word. The good news is that a trip like The Scoot should keep us all well within Globalstar's high availability window. The odds are decent.
I'm thinking that a more likely problem in transmission is keeping the SPOT in a with an unobstructed view of the horizon for twenty minutes. If water is washing over the boat (and SPOT) every few minutes is that going to cause trouble? What about rolling gunwale to gunwale? Maybe an issue. Maybe not. I have no idea if EPIRBs have similar worries.
Quote from: s/v Faith on January 17, 2009, 06:11:42 PM
I had an Avon Offshore life raft, but sold it after I figured out it had no place aboard Faith. The hard valance was it's undoing, but frankly was not interested in the soft cases either.
Before you go out and buy one, give a thought to where you are going to stow it. You may decide that it is better to invest in making your craft more seaworthy (I like CaptK's idea).
Life is a compromise. And a gamble. I'm going to carry SPOT, to keep the family apprised. If I can financially make it happen, I'm probably going to carry some sort of life raft to give the family a little peace of mind. I'm going to try and get an AIS receiver to give ME a little peace of mind. I'm going to do the best I can to make Godot more seaworthy in order to better the odds on this throw of the dice. That is the same reason we chose the time frame we did. To improve the odds.
re: the EPIRB
Quote from: s/v Faith on January 17, 2009, 06:11:42 PM
We have not purchased one, and while I am not going to say I never will I will say that I (like others on this site) have a tough time with the idea that someone else should put themselves in harms way if my poor judgment puts me and my crew there.
I largely agree, philosophically. The practical point is, however, no matter what I tell my family, if I end up well overdue they are going to call the Coast Guard. If the Coast Guard is going to be involved at all, I would like to make it as easy and inexpensive as possible for them to get my soggy butt home.
Life would be a lot simpler if I didn't have folks at home who cared about me. A lot lonelier, too.
Quote from: Godot on January 18, 2009, 09:00:39 AM
Quote
Q: I've heard SPOT uses Globalstar's network and they are having problems, how does this affect SPOT?
A: SPOT does not use Globalstar's 2-way voice technology. We use their simplex constellation which our extensive testing shows 99.6% reliability.
Is 99.6% true and accurate?
I would believe a reliability number of 0.996 for spacecraft and payload. The issue is coverage of the incomplete constellation. If there is a gap in ground (sea) coverage due to a sparsely populated constellation that doesn't affect the properly calculated reliability number even though there is a service interruption.
If you look at the real-world data from cruisers and other sailors from the US East Coast, Bahamas, and Caribbean you will find a lot of dissatisfaction with Globalstar. The coverage is simply not there.
SPOT is a reasonable security blanket for family and friends as long as they understand there may be gaps that have nothing to do with safety. It is not a substitute for an EPIRB if that is the functionality you want.
I tend to agree with S/V Faith, but if I do climb up into my life raft I will take my EPIRB with me and hope someone comes to get me. Prior to that I will have been doing everything I can to save myself and my boat, and before leaving shore I'll have done everything I can to minimize the risk through maintenance.
Auspicious, with all due respect, I've been operating a SPOT device for six months and it has yet to drop coverage once activated (track mode and OK), so your statement about dropped coverage is not supported to my experience operating the device. However if you are not comfortable with a SPOT unit, by all means do what you are comfortable with.
Adrift, this is a direct quote from the SPOT website (emphasis added):
QuoteHow It Works:
Once activated, SPOT will acquire its exact coordinates from the GPS network, and send that location along with a distress message to a GEOS International Emergency Response Center every five minutes until cancelled. The Emergency Response Center notifies the appropriate emergency responders based on your location and personal information – which may include local police, highway patrol, the Coast Guard, our country's embassy or consulate, or other emergency response or search and rescue teams – as well as notifying your emergency contact person(s) about the receipt of a distress signal.
Reference: http://www.findmespot.com/en/index.php?cid=1111# (http://www.findmespot.com/en/index.php?cid=1111#)
However, just to clarify I give them a call. This is how they describe the operation in 911 mode.
Who gets contacted depends on the program you have in place (purchased when you activate your SPOT). If you get the standard package it contacts an emergency response center in Texas who gets a visual on your position and contacts the appropriate agency or agencies depending on your position (land or sea which could be handy if you are ashore in a country where your cellphone doesn't work) If you have the rescue insurance, which I do, it contacts GEOS at the same time and they too get a visual on your location. GEOS controls the release of funds to cover rescue operations up to the limit of the policy ($100K) should the need arise.
In the case of the basic coverage, this is how most home security systems operate. For example ADT systems contact an emergency response center who contact the police. When I inquired of ADT as to why the police are not contacted directly with our home security system I was advised it was due to the high number of false alarms by home security systems which was resulting in home owners being charged by the police for their response if the alarm turned out to be false. This explanation may well be why there is a middleman with the non-insured systems. In reality, it matters not who gets the call as long as emergency services are dispatched in a timely manner.
My point regarding SPOT was that the unit can perform a multitude of services, including rescue. An EPIRB just occupies space until your boat sinks. If you boat never sinks, which most boats seem to be able to avoid, it performs no function whatsoever and eventually will require update or replacement, again hopefully performing no function until the next time it needs replacement. Then there is the battery issue. Hopefully everyone does the battery maintenance so the unit functions when needed. The SPOT, on the other hand being used daily should make weak batteries evident during non-emergency operation. So consider the options and make a selection based on your comfort level.
For those interested in renting an EPIRB, this just came in my BoatUS newsletter.
http://www.boatus.com/foundation/epirb/ (http://www.boatus.com/foundation/epirb/)
Joe,
I'm glad SPOT is working reliably for you. Cool beans. I also appreciate your rationale description of your perspective.
Skip Gundlach, of the infamous S/V Flying Pig, has many followers. On several occasions folk have gotten all energized when his location stopped updating. Interestingly enough, at this moment (22 Jan 09 1345 EST), SPOT's web site doesn't even acknowledge the existence of Skip's unit.
I have spoken directly with a number of Globalstar users who are very unhappy with coverage. Many have given up on Globalstar, which is after all the underlying infrastructure for SPOT.
I find the whole scenario upsetting. Not to digress unduly, but many years ago when satellite telephone services where first coming on line I pushed very hard from within the USG to contract with Globalstar as the better technical solution. I lost the argument and DoD pumped a great deal of money into Iridium, helping the company through a lot of growing pains. Globalstar lost a number of satellites due to age and didn't have the capital or cash flow to replace them. That is why they have operationally significant gaps in the constellation and coverage therefrom.
Again, I'm glad SPOT is working for you. For life critical functions I just don't think SPOT is adequate. We all have to decide on our own what risks we are willing to accept and at what cost.
sail fast, dave
S/V Auspicious
I guess to me if a person is trying to make it easy use the less amount of stuff as possible. Like I use a Multi tool a lot that way I'm not having to carry around a toolbox with me. I think of a Spot at about the same level if my radio stops I can let others know I'm OK with the OK function if my boat has a issue or something just isn't working and I can't rig it, it has the help/what every you program it to say function and then you have the "Oh God I'm going to die function /911." All of these things to me is better then getting just the "oh God I'm going to die" from the epirb. Yes we can all talk this until we die about this network or radio signal both of which can be interupted by different things and conditions. Like any thing it is up to the person personal discretion I'm just and happy if someone has something at all. So tired of seeing cellphones being used for everything driving me nuts. have you seen this one. http://www.verizonwireless.com/b2c/store/controller?item=phoneFirst&action=viewPhoneDetail&selectedPhoneId=4330&changingCompletedOrder=
Does everything but wax your car. and we all know there will be some guys using this as a gps/coms for there boat too.
The same way a multi tool doesn't always have the screwdiver bit you need is kinda the same way the spot is may not work the best but if you have to get the screw out or send a message I figure sooner or later they will get it I might have to sit in the water longer but heck I need the sun ;D. I have to agree with both of you. They both can save your life and they both have there good and down points. Anyway you look at it if you have them both the better chance you have. I'm not a blue water sailor "yet" but anything is better then nothing. I keep glow sticks in my life jacket too don't think they will help a lot but hey same thought process.
Joe-
All that means is that the SPOT Response Center, not the SPOT Messenger unit you have on your boat, contacts GEOS—that becomes a weak link.
The SPOT Messenger has no way to contact GEOS directly, regardless of what the literature or website say, since the SPOT Messenger has no idea of what subscription you paid for, since it is strictly a one-way messaging device. :)
With an EPIRB, the EPIRB directly contacts the COPSAS/SARSAT network. There is no human middleman involved.
I'm not saying that the SPOT messenger isn't a nifty device, but it isn't what I'd want to rely on in an emergency. Between the fallibility of the people at the SPOT response center, and the well-documented and public problems Globalstar has with its satellite network, it isn't a reliable safety device IMHO.
Quote from: Joe Pyrat on January 22, 2009, 11:12:58 AMIf you have the rescue insurance, which I do, it contacts GEOS at the same time and they too get a visual on your location. GEOS controls the release of funds to cover rescue operations up to the limit of the policy ($100K) should the need arise.
Dave,
Just took a look at Skips SPOT page. His page does indeed appear. Keep in mind the system only displays a weeks worth of data so if he hasn't used it in a while this is what you'll get. Mine looked just like this until I activated the track function today.
Also, keep in mind SPOT does not use Globalstar's 2-way voice technology just their simplex constellation so direct comparisons between Globalstar users and SPOT may not be valid.
Navyvet,
Actually one of the things my Spouse likes best about SPOT is that I can send her an "I'm OK" message even when I don't have cellphone service. I used this several times a day when I was anchored in Still Pond Creek and even in Warton Creek at the marina which had spotty cellphone service. It just let her know I was still kicking since she knew I had to push the button to send the message. I'm thinking this will be handy in the Caribbean where my phone doesn't work.
Adrift,
Quote from: AdriftAtSea on January 22, 2009, 01:57:41 PM
The SPOT Messenger has no way to contact GEOS directly, regardless of what the literature or website say, since the SPOT Messenger has no idea of what subscription you paid for, since it is strictly a one-way messaging device.
Not true mate, it sends a coded transmission which allows them to isolate which SPOT is transmitting based on the ESN number assigned to the device which you register when you activate the SPOT. It is therefore very easy it isolate a device by account type.
Quote from: AdriftAtSea on January 22, 2009, 01:57:41 PM
With an EPIRB, the EPIRB directly contacts the COPSAS/SARSAT network. There is no human middleman involved.
At some point with any device, SPOT or EPIRB, humans are involved so this argument doesn't seem all that valid to me. SPOT in 911 mode does updates every 5 minutes until deactivated, this information is passed along, so the likelihood that any error would be perpetuated over time would seem even less likely, but human error can always be a factor with any such device.
Related to your concern about Globalstar, see response to Dave above.
For those really concerned about safety in the event you have to abandon your boat, I'd suggest you take a multi-level approach to the problem consisting of something like EPIRB, SPOT, hand held VHF, sat phone, flares/smoke. The limiting factor is expense, storage space and personal safety comfort space. I've got a lot of faith in my boat so my personal comfort space with this particular issue is quite high. I am less confident with my navigational abilities, although I'm working to improve that, so I have four GPS systems aboard, two portables and two fixed one of which is a non-installed backup. I also have two GPS antennas installed one in operation one backup. I load course date into both hand helds and the installed fixed unit before setting sail. Again, it all comes down to the individuals comfort level in various areas. Frankly one of my pet peeves are people who activate EMS when they get uncomfortable onboard, but that's another discussion altogether.
Navyvet,
The earlier version of the G'Zone cellphone got rave reviews from a number of coastal cruisers that I know, as well as Bill Sisson, editor of Soundings.
I've thought seriously about buying one, but I rarely have my cell phone on when I'm sailing. I do carry my phone in a little waterproof plastic case, and I use it to make calls when I'm at the dock or on the mooring if necessary, but yakking on a phone while on the water seems kind of obscene to me. Why sail at all?
That said, I wouldn't think that anybody with any knowledge of seamanship would ever substitute a cell phone for a VHF--and I would think twice about substituting a SPOT for an EPIRB if I were going seriously offshore or crossing an ocean.
SPOT would be pretty cool for notifying friends and family of your whereabouts, though, IMHO.
--Joe
Quote from: Joe Pyrat on January 22, 2009, 03:30:51 PM
Dave,
Just took a look at Skips SPOT page. His page does indeed appear. Keep in mind the system only displays a weeks worth of data so if he hasn't used it in a while this is what you'll get. Mine looked just like this until I activated the track function today.
Joe, I understand how the SPOT display page works. At the time I posted I was getting the default "we don't know what you are talking about" picture of San Jose CA. I use a bookmark, so typos aren't an issue. In fact, I'm getting that again now. Has Skip changed SPOT EINs? I agree that SPOT has its virtues, but it just doesn't seem to meet life-safety kinds of standards. YMMV, and everyone has a right to their own opinion about value.
Quote from: Joe Pyrat on January 22, 2009, 03:30:51 PM
Also, keep in mind SPOT does not use Globalstar's 2-way voice technology just their simplex constellation so direct comparisons between Globalstar users and SPOT may not be valid.
Coverage is coverage. If the spot (no pun intended) beam from the spacecraft doesn't cover the location where you are with sufficient gain at the time you transmit it won't get to the ground station for any processing regardless of whether it goes to the voice processors and circuit switches or to the location processors.
Absolutely everyone has the right to their own opinion.
Coverage is not necessarily coverage though. Globalstar Simplex data is a low cost, one-way satellite data service that can be used to monitor and track mobile assets - such as vehicles, trailers, cargo containers, rail cars and marine vessels, using sensors and GPS or other location-based software. The Simplex service utilizes only the L-band uplink of Globalstar's constellation of 40 Low Earth Orbit (LEO) satellites, which is unaffected by the S-band downlink anomaly that the company reported in February 2007. So issues associated with Globalstar phones do not necessarily translate to issues with L-band tracking devices like SPOT.
Actually I have discovered an issue with the SPOT device that may render it unsuitable for boaters in emergency situations which has nothing to do with anything discussed here. I am researching this and will let you know when and if I can verify it with SPOT.
BTW, try Googling "EPIRB Failures" and see what you get. Doesn't mean you shouldn't have one though, but it might mean having a backup could be handy.
Quote from: Joe Pyrat on January 23, 2009, 11:30:05 PM
The Simplex service utilizes only the L-band uplink of Globalstar's constellation of 40 Low Earth Orbit (LEO) satellites, which is unaffected by the S-band downlink anomaly that the company reported in February 2007.
I must be missing something. How does the data get back down from the spacecraft? Globalstar is just a bent pipe - no onboard processing. SPOT data has to come down on the downlink ...
To my understanding, the biggest issue is an incomplete satellite constellation. Globalstar now has a software tool that forecasts the next satellite pass and how long there will be coverage.
There is a discussion going on the SSCA board as well. http://ssca.org/DiscBoard/viewtopic.php?t=7644
That confused me for a while, but the difference seems to be the SPOT uplinks to the satellite then the satellite downlinks to the ground station which sends to the interested party over the Internet (that's a guess regarding the Internet, but probable). A phone communication goes something like this; the phone uplinks to the satellite, which downlinks, to the ground station, which after doing its thing over POTS, uplinks back to the satellite, then the satellite downlinks to the phone. So SPOT (and all the other transponder type devices using L-band) send a one way communication to their control center. The S-band phone traffic has to travel both directions. I guess in a nutshell the satellite never communicates with the transponder, but it must with a phone.
I'll check out the SSCA thread, thanks.
I am taking the USSP boating course and I just coverd a chapter that says you can rent the epirb from like west marine but WHY would you want to?
if you are going to carry this thing to possibly save you're life in a life threatening
scenario I'd want a Brand new one off the shelf that someone has not rented before me. I have seen there like 5-800 dollars but thats cheap if you really have to use it.
$500-800 might be fine for a long term cruiser. For some of us folks who just need it for a month and that is it, well, that becomes mighty expensive.
The advantage of renting vs buying might be that you get a "fairly" new unit each time you rent, where if you buy it may be quite old by the time or if you ever need to actually deploy it. If I just did the occasional run to the Bahamas for a short period, say a few weeks, renting would probably be the way to go, however if you are planning on staying out longer owning would make more sense economically.
yeah I guess so but still wouldn't hurt to own it.
I know this is not new news, but I just got this email from Good Old Boat magazine (http://www.goodoldboat.com/) and thought I would post it as a reminder.
QuoteDear Good Old Boater,
We came across this piece of information, courtesy of BoatU.S. The
United States Coast Guard will stop monitoring the old EPIRB frequency
(121 Mhz) beginning on February 1, 2009. COSPAS/SARSAT, the
international satellite-based search and rescue organization, made this
decision nearly 9 years ago, giving mariners time to transition to the
new 406 Mhz technology.
So while the landlubbers make their TVs transition to digital, sailors,
especially those of us who frequently sail more than 20 miles away from
the shoreline, need to make sure we're using the new 406 MHz
technology. The BoatU.S. Foundation rents the new 406 Mhz EPIRB for $40
a week and reports that the retail price for the new equipment and
installation runs about $500.
Hopefully none of us will have to, but we should all be aware of how to
signal the Coast Guard for help when out of cell phone range and VHF
coverage. For more information, see Don Launer's Signaling for Help 101
in our January 2009 issue, visit www.BoatUS.com/foundation/epirb, or
call the EPIRB (888-663-7472).
Safe Sailing!
Karen, Jerry, and the Good Old Boat Crew.
[/size]
Another interesting and relevant discussion at SSCA here (http://ssca.org/DiscBoard/viewtopic.php?t=7715).
Quote from: Godot on January 18, 2009, 09:00:39 AM
Life would be a lot simpler if I didn't have folks at home who cared about me. A lot lonelier, too.
Guess it all depends on your definition of loneliness. Personally I look forward to my sail time to get away from everything (and everyone), but, as we all do, I have my own demons to deal with in the way that best suits me.
As for the whole question of safety, I personally find the idea of a smaller inflatable filled with foam interesting. As for the scoot, I will just use VHF and my tender (aside from the typical vests, flairs, etc etc). Of course, I also have the Corps to thank for the Combat Water Survival Instructor (8563) class, which im sure will help in a "worst case".
Of course I have no one to miss me when im gone, except the debt collectors ;D