I was just looking at pictures from last winter and it struck me how overly complicated and excessively expensive some make cruising. Then, there are those that have a simple boat and are having a hoot with a lot less stress and expence. This topic is like anchors...we all have opinions. Personally, unless you are doing serious offshore passages, I feel fun can be had with far less equipment than we are programed to buy. A well found boat, a good anchor, decent sails with multiple reef points, a good VHF, hand held GPS, a set of explorer charts and your laptop is all one needs to cruise the southern states, the Keys and the quick hop over to Bahamas during winter. (repeat as desired) I say laptop because wifi is available in many places for good forcasts and to check into sailfar ;) So...if this is actually all that is needed...why do 98.5% of cruisers make it SO much more complicated and take things SO seriously?
Quote from: Frank on May 22, 2014, 10:41:01 PM
why do 98.5% of cruisers make it SO much more complicated and take things SO seriously?
Because the magazines, their friends and most web sites tell them that is what is needed?
Needed to do it "safely" is generally how they sell it. They push fear. That's the marketing hook.
We're programmed to want to buy things.
Another thought as I ponder how simple/inexpensive cruising can be is why aren't more young people out there? There are a few, but I always wonder why more don't give up a few years now for a lifetime of memories later. It seems there were more in the 70's n 80's....or at least more written about. Maybe it's the "written about" that inspired others. A lot of the old advertizing was targeted at the adventurous spirit as well. Some of the old Flicka ads were classic...little boat with pacific island peaks in the back drop. The old West Sail ads were similar. Both ads and stories have changed a lot. I wonder how many free spirits could get inspired if ads and stories were different?
Frank, I think you are right, so many ads tell you about all the things you "need", it looks (and is) overwhelmingly expensive to someone just starting to dream of those faraway places. Another factor I think is that nowadays travel to exotic places is more common place whereas before the only way one could realistically get there was by cruising.
I think there is a lot going on underlying those changes.
For one thing, a mental attitude of "instant gratification" has been hard sold to the current younger generation. This sense of immediacy for "pleasure" is coupled with the notion that it should also come without work. Young folks do not seem to be learning "you get from something what you are willing to put into it."
There has also been tremendous social pressure to "fit in," to do as everyone else is doing. Look at the reaction to Rebel Heart, where a lot of the negative comments came from a position of ignorance about sailing, cruising, crossing oceans, living aboard, etc. Living in a boat is just different, and that has come to be equated with being wrong.
I see this latter point all the time in a different context. You should witness the horror I see on people's facing when my children are seen somewhere "in public" during school hours. Homeschooling has become far more "mainstream" than the cruising lifestyle, and we still face the "you are different" reaction.
The fitting in / instant gratification programming works together...they are cut from the same cloth. That is, they both work as the psychological underpinning for advertising. You need this, because everyone else has it. You need this, because it will make you safe | feel good | popular, RIGHT NOW. Spend your money on this product, and all your problems will go away.
Our young generation has been acculturated into believing whatever the advertising says. Without getting into too many particulars, this phenomenon has been studied.
There's also another, related underpinning. One social measure of "wealth" is having others do for you. I believe this is why "eating out" has become so important for Middle and Lower class Americans...for 5-10x the price of the food, you can buy the illusion for an hour that you are wealthy enough to have servants...buying the fantasy of "Upper Crust."
This is true with travel as well. Why have your own boat, with all the work it takes to get it ready, keep it seaworthy and actually SAIL somewhere (at a disappointing 5-8 knots for most cruising boats), when you can buy the luxury of being waited on hand and foot on cruise ships and resorts?
I'm sure there are many additional factors as well. And they are all interrelated...no 'one thing.' And Tim is certainly correct...the sold notion of 'cruising' is so expensive that many look at the "need list" and must just say..."no way I will ever be able to do this." That very thing almost happened to me in the 1990's reading SAIL magazine every month.
Finally, the last thing I think is a factor - fear. Fear in combination with false expectations. People hear stories like Rebel Heart (both what happened and the post-event criticisms) and have to be thinking..."No way I want to subject myself to that." The thousands of successful crossings, some even with children, don't get reported all over the news. So, folks come away with the false notion that it's just THAT dangerous.
All good points. Funny you mention "fear". FEAR...in a different context, holds many back from various things. Change brings about "loss of control" (devil we know/understand is better than the one we don't) Loss of control brings about FEAR! Giving up a job, a lifestyle and or social circle that we are comfortable in to adventure out is down right scary to many. Yep...FEAR is an aweful thing!!
In so many ways and SO many situations, we allow "FEAR" to influance our choices. We must learn to chose wisely....our choices co-creat our lives!!
Yep. Fear is one of the main themes in Debra Cantrell's Changing Course.
Fear comes in many forms and shows itself in many ways.
The thing I often ponder, however, is how much "control" and "safety" are illusions anyway. It seems kind of odd to me to let 'fear' run so many of life's decisions, when one opposite state is not real, either. That may not make sense the way I worded it...
I feel too many people think a boat needs to be a small house to cruise anywhere. it needs to be much less, if you want it to be much more.
Quote from: lance on cloud nine on May 29, 2014, 03:40:38 PM
it needs to be much less, if you want it to be much more.
I like that! Here's a grog for ya!
Quote from: Travelnik on May 29, 2014, 03:53:44 PM
Quote from: lance on cloud nine on May 29, 2014, 03:40:38 PM
it needs to be much less, if you want it to be much more.
I like that! Here's a grog for ya!
I like that, too. Another grog.
Hey! Thanks for the Grogs! It got my weekend off to a happy start. My wife and I have our first race of the season on Sunday. Small boats on an Indiana lake. We will be racing an AMF Sunbird 16. And then get to spend about 4 days on our O'Day 23 in Florida. Hope you all have a great weekend as well!
Equipping a boat to cruise, especially coastal cruising does no have to be costly at all. With the exception of self steering, my boat was ready to go when I bought her. It truly is a shame that advertising has people convinced that it costs so much.
Fear really is the biggest issue though. People buy every gizmo recommended to them just to expand their comfort zone, only to later realize that experience and confidence are the only two things that will do that. I literally just wrote getting out of one's comfort zone if you ever want to advance your dreams or better yourself. Comfortable is lazy and suffering builds character.
As for why you don't see young people cruising as much anymore, I think everyone already hit the nail on the head. The only thing I would add is the massive amount of debt that most young people have now, much of which can be attributed to both fitting in and instant gratification.
Hi people, first post here...
Quote from: Frank on May 29, 2014, 06:15:18 AM
Another thought as I ponder how simple/inexpensive cruising can be is why aren't more young people out there? There are a few, but I always wonder why more don't give up a few years now for a lifetime of memories later.
I am getting wiser now and I am asking these questions about my own path too... Why did I not do this or that at that time or another...BUT I never did when I was younger... Ehhh I mean when I was not as wise...
Another possible factor, I think, could be that sailing is not perceived as being extreme... Lots of people are hooked on extreme sports... Triathlon, parcour, climbing, all the Redbull games.
Just my opinions
Leemolou
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Welcome aboard Leemolou, and I agree, when you are talking about the truly younger crowd sailing at first glance does not have much pizazz! But I also feel that the impression given typically by media is that it requires big bucks to even begin to sail, which of course is not true.
Starting with a trailer sailboat allows minimal upkeep costs. With experience gain from that, one can map out how to take the dream on forward.
Frank its so they can pay me to fix there over complicated boat systems so I can cruise all winter in my nice simple, yes smaller boat. Three nd a half years out and we haven't hand any thing go wrong on our simplified boat that has stopped us from cruising along. 8)
Quote from: Leemolou on June 12, 2014, 03:38:55 PM
Another possible factor, I think, could be that sailing is not perceived as being extreme... Lots of people are hooked on extreme sports... Triathlon, parcour, climbing, all the Redbull games.
I think this is a good point. It fuels the "instant gratification" mindset as an expectation. Sailing / cruising is anything but "instant gratification" most of the time.
I'm reminded of the time tied to a private dock and a dude fishing toodled by. He came over to chat about the sailboat race that was going on nearby, and asked about sailing. After a very brief conversation, he said, "I could never do that. It's just
too slow."
Relating that idea to "cruising," I remember reading in a backpacking book a couple of decades ago that one thing that gives a lot of first-time backpackers "trouble" (psychologically) is the slow pace. They go to the woods used to the trees whizzing past at 55 mph and a 20 mile trip being made in some fraction of an hour.
On foot, the situation is far different. A 20 mile trip is a long day. You can see individual trees, and see them approach for parts of a minute (that same minute that covers nearly a full mile at 55 mph).
Cruising is, I think, like this for some. We've talked about it a lot here from different angles...boat size, boat appointment, etc. "A boat is not a house" and similar ideas come to mind. Folks come to this with expectations that it is like other things they've already done. The pace, the travel times, the "comfort" (I hate that word in this discussion, because simple does not have to be uncomfortable) are all compared to a faster paced life.
It's worse that that faster paced, dare I say "shallower," life is the one actively sold by magazines and web sites pushing the 'fun' and 'excitement' of cruising. The other day I was reading a "cruising" related web site where the guy was extolling the virtues of "fast boats lets you see more."
Ugh.
(Not saying that's not right for some people or criticizing those that choose that...just saying it's not ALL there is to cruising).
The point is that there is near constant inundation with "go fast, go extreme, go WILD, go fancy" in society at large AND within large segments of the "cruising community."
Great posts!
On the lighter side....
Anyone thinking cruising is not an extreme sport has never been caught out in a full gale!!
:o ;D :o :D :o ;)
Quote from: Frank on June 21, 2014, 12:17:27 PM
Great posts!
On the lighter side....
Anyone thinking cruising is not an extreme sport has never been caught out in a full gale!!
:o ;D :o :D :o ;)
That's a great point, Frank. It further feeds into the "wrong expectations" that the rags and pop sites "sell" as cruising.
How it's sold:
Crystal clear blue water under perfect blue skies, girls in bikinis laying in the sun or jumping into the water, smiling folks sipping drinks at sunset, wide angle photos (to make the interior look huge) of spit-n-polish boat cabins, marketing copy like "enjoy" and "relax" and "worry free" ...
The reality:
All of that listed above DOES exist, but it's not all the time. Add to that:
Boat maintenance and repairs, days waiting for it to stop raining, storminess in general, paperwork hassles, everything in the cabin strewn about and/or wet, part of the crew seasick, etc. The list goes on.
The idea that is sold is that "cruising" is some sort of vacation from life. For a sailing vacation (like a week charter in the VI or something), it can be that. But full time cruising (or even just a full time 'cruising lifestyle' if shore based) *IS* real life...with all the realities of that. There are great times. There are times that it's work.
It took a year of living aboard for this to really soak in for me personally. "Living aboard" sounds romantic, but the reality of it is that one deals with a LOT of the same types of pressures and stresses as any other "living." Home repairs, earning a living (for most of us, anyway...those of us not independently wealthy), medical issues, family matters, etc don't magically go away just because our home is on the water.
I've read a LOT of 'cruising blogs' where a couple "went out" and cruised for a few months, maybe a year or two, and gave it up with a similar theme. They set out believing this was to be their "lifestyle" forever. They quit because "shore life" was more convenient. Their expectations from the beginning were wrong, and that, in my opinion, is what defeated them. They had incorrectly calculated the amount of time spent waiting on weather or doing boat chores, for example.
(Defeated may be too strong a word...just making a point).
I'm not trying to paint a "negative" image of "cruising." Quite the contrary. I'm trying to paint a realistic one. As your comment shows, there's more to this "lifestyle" than blue skies and overly sweet cocktails.
What I believe is that if one is realistic about the expectations and moves forward from there, the rewards are tremendous and more than make up for these costs. The thing is, 'regular life' has all the same hassles, but without the reward of sunrise at anchor, hanging with the crusty sailor with a million stories, walking a secluded, pristine beach, etc.
Bringing it back to the tread title, it my firm belief that 'not complicated' is part of the key to keep those expectations realistic and to "properly" (as individual as that gets defined) balance the 'work at life' time with the 'seems like vacation' time.
Good points Cap'n...got me thinking about my own situation and putting some disappointments in perspective...
"need not be complicated" can be an economic thing as well in that all the gadgets can make the sailing more pleasurable for some when that some can throw all the money they want at problems... Parts and labor, marina stays, days at resorts and hotels ashore while somebody else sweats it out in the engine compartment installing the new starter that took weeks to get while you were wading up to the pool bar just up from the beach. I got to talking to a cruiser at the local WM who had just finished a south seas tour in an Aleutian 50. I asked what her biggest surprise was and she said it was the expense. She said they went through 10,000 in two months of the trip not counting outfitting. She didn't seem to concerned about it but I was gobsmacked...just said wow, that's a lot of money and moved on.
My girlfriend, who has decided not to go cruising had a good, well paid job for 30 years and never met a problem she could not through money at to fix and her idea of cruising was based in a sensibility that the boat contain all of those things she had in her house and that there was no room for any sort of hardship or deprivation. I used to think that her storm management techniques would include dumping pillowcases of $100 bills on the water to calm the waves. ::) Now she will stay home and me and my little Badger will go off adventuring for a couple of a months while she fly's around to catch up with me. Badger and my travels are all mine and I will have the pride of accomplishing much with little. I wouldn't mind being able to be a deep pocket checkbook sailor even if my sailing heroes like Knox Johnston and Web Chile's never had/have much to spend and am happy to put the voyaging together the same way. I only wanted to comment that with enough money the sailing can be very simple ;) :D ;) :D
Yes there are issues....yes problems come up. Thats life. Yep...the smaller-simpler the easier less stressful....the more time to simply "be". I always revel at seeing old farts (me incl) bombing around on lil dingy's, climbing up docks, grinning like Huck Finn and having a blast!!! Done right...cruising brings out the little boy-girl in all of us!!
I'm with you Frank!! >: :D
Marina stays??? Sure, I have a few. Thinking back to my previous live aboard time, on my 35 foot trimaran. That boat went for a full year without ever touching a dock. All supplies, all water, all fuel and us all the time, went back and forth in a dinghy.
And three of us cruised for close to 2 years on $7500
Nowadays, I pick up a mooring when I can, when traveling. It's convenient. And usually not THAT expensive. But again, seldom am I on a dock
Quote from: Frank on June 21, 2014, 04:03:27 PM
....the more time to simply "be". I always revel at seeing old farts (me incl) bombing around on lil dingy's, climbing up docks, grinning like Huck Finn and having a blast!!! Done right...cruising brings out the little boy-girl in all of us!!
Thaaaaaaaat's why my girlfriend keeps telling me I'm six.... ;D
Quote from: Frank on June 21, 2014, 04:03:27 PM
Yes there are issues....yes problems come up. Thats life. Yep...the smaller-simpler the easier less stressful....the more time to simply "be". I always revel at seeing old farts (me incl) bombing around on lil dingy's, climbing up docks, grinning like Huck Finn and having a blast!!! Done right...cruising brings out the little boy-girl in all of us!!
;) ;) :)
Lots of random thoughts on this. Part of the problem is the gradual erosion of family cruising, for a multitude of reasons. A kid that starts out on and around boats is much more likely to be doing it later in life when he/she can afford to go cruising. They will have the skills and comfort-level around the water that is needed. As we have discussed in some other threads, today's cruising couple typically starts later in life with lots more money and more expectations. They have no knowledge of marine stuff, and they logically try to recreate their land life on a boat, which makes things complicated and expensive. I remember a long time ago talking to a dissatisfied cruiser who was complaining that she missed her morning newspaper everyday--that was before smart phones, etc., but I think the point is that after a lifetime of something people do develop habits that are very hard to break. I know other people who go to great lengths in order to have infinite fresh water supplies, infinite hot water onboard, and all the complication and expense that go along with it. They can't fathom an existence where these things aren't a turn of the tap away because they have never known any other thing. I've noticed that people who start cruising after having done a lot of other outdoor stuff, like hiking, backpacking, camping, kayaking, etc., often enjoy cruising more. Even a tiny cruising sailboat is luxury compared to a backpacking tent in the wilderness.
Two other points. A lot of people are scared of a lot of things. The first questions I always get asked are about storms and pirates. Two, maintenance costs, hassles, and drudgery are the reason many couples drop out of cruising. I see it time and again. Most people would be happier in the long run with a simpler boat that was easier to maintain and cost less to run. I've run into guys running big motor yachts who were complaining about the cost of fuel and maintenance, and they were obviously worth millions. The more you have to spend the more you will spend.
I think theres more of the ultra-simplicity cruisers out there than we realize. We dont hear about them because they dont make a point of needing to be recognized.
A former boss and great friend who spent the past winter cruising the south on a diesel trawler says he ran into a wonderful group in the dry tortugas cruising in little homemade plywood sailboats without so much as a house battery. AA powered handhelds were the order of the day. They had been out for almost a year, rarely took the dock, stuck together for companionship and safety and were living the life of Reilly. An old timer at my marina says that over a decade ago he ran into a family from British Columbia in the Marquesas cruising on a 30 footer they built themselves from trees on their own property and completing a circumnavigation using a lead line, log, sextant and working out the math with a pencil and paper. Talk about self sufficient! These are the type of adventurers who could write a book i would gratefully buy and read every word a hundred times, yet almost by definition these are the folks who have mastered simplicity to the point they have no interest in promoting themselves. They want for nothing and derive maximum experience out of every second. To my thinking there is nothing more admirable than that.
Well said, Darren. Grog to you.
Quote from: DarrenC on July 01, 2014, 10:09:41 AM
I think theres more of the ultra-simplicity cruisers out there than we realize. We dont hear about them because they dont make a point of needing to be recognized.
That may well be true, but in that is part of the problem.
The squeaky, noisy wheel gets the attention. The 'big boat is better' and the 'you've GOT to have GPS | other' message is out there...loudly and often. I've had people whose boats NEVER left the dock tell me I HAD to have roller furling because it makes sailing easier and more convenient.
(Not bashing furling itself...I'm bashing the attitude that it is
necessary).
It takes some work to uncover the "simpler" message. And that is what I've been saying for a while now...that the disparity in how these two messages is available is part of a dream killing process.
I get the simpler lifestyle folks are just doing their thing...quietly and nondescript. But, it's also a bit unfortunate in that dreamers miss that option as being viable unless they specifically look for it for some reason.
I sense I'm dancing around the point and having trouble stating it. One message is more "popular" than the other, not because it really is more popular, but just because it is repeated more. Something like that...and that makes it LOOK like it is more popular, or worse...more RIGHT, more CORRECT.
There's more than one way to cruise by sailboat. But you might not know that from reading the rags and the more "popular" blogs and forums.
SO true about media and the "popular" opinion! The clubhouse at my marina has a little lending library including a stack of donated magazines, and the other day i picked up a copy of Yacht World or Cruising World or Pretentious World or something like that because one of the features listed on the cover caught my interest - "Five Affordable Sailboats to take you to the Bahamas"
When i reached the article I didnt know whether to laugh out loud or cry. The subtext was that if you were "only" crossing the gulfstream it could "safely" and "reasonably" be done in a boat under 40' and less than $100K as long as you chose "carefully". The five contenders they came up with ranged from the "meager" Islander 36 to the "best value" Beanteau 393. Scary to think how many people must read poop like that and never think about cruising as a viable option again.
I have a guy at the sail club I belong to that has stated many times that the size boats that we sail on the lake here are just to small to take to the islands. I have asked him several times why that was and he can't give me a good answer other than they are just to small. He pointed out that my hunter was a cheaply make boat and that it could not stand up to the rigours of off shore sailing. According to him a 38 footer is the minimal size that you need to take off shore. He has sailed the Bahamas and else where and all of it done in a 50 footer that he owned. He has told me several times that he worst part of sailing the 50 was finding crew. That just don't sound like fun to me. I want to know that I made the trip on my own ability.
Quote from: DarrenC on July 02, 2014, 09:17:03 AM
Scary to think how many people must read poop like that and never think about cruising as a viable option again.
As I've mentioned here a number of times, that was very nearly me in the mid-90's. I read SAIL and occasionally CRUISING WORLD. Those magazines has me convinced my wife and I
needed a 45 footer.
So, I began looking at prices of 45 footers. And, the cost of maintenance.
And then very nearly gave up the idea of EVER 'cruising' on a sailboat.
Quote from: jotruk
I have a guy at the sail club I belong to that has stated many times that the size boats that we sail on the lake here are just to small to take to the islands. I have asked him several times why that was and he can't give me a good answer other than they are just to small.
You know what? I would LOVE for someone like this to join sailfar and 'engage in dialog' on this topic. I don't mean to have them here to berate them, but to see how they defend that idea in the face of overwhelming evidence that what they believe is simply not true.
Now, if he just
prefers a larger boat, that's his business. But to repeat this Geezer Science notion that smaller boats are, on that basis alone, deficient for "offshore" or going to the islands or whatever, as fact is rather weak.
Geezer Science is one of my new favorite terms. For anyone not familiar, it means "I am going to repeat what I heard, and it must be true because I heard it and I believe it."
I've seen people defend some of most ridiculous ideas on this basis alone. Bigger = better, with no other considerations, when it comes to boats certainly qualifies.
One of the factors that i believe may accompany the geezer science is that an individual who has already drunk the kool aid and is now way over their head in a too big/complicated /expensive boat feels compelled to ignore the evidence and perpetuate the myth because they are embarassed they ever got taken in to begin with.
On a much smaller scale I did this myself recently. It took me almost a year to shake off the insanity of those stupid single serve keurig coffee pods even tbough from the very beginning it was obvious that i was paying ten times the price for substandard product, yet I kept it up because I felt i had to justify the original poor decision of paying a hundred bucks for a coffee maker to begin with. Talk about good money after bad!
Quote from: jotruk on July 02, 2014, 10:29:10 AM
He pointed out that my hunter was a cheaply make boat and that it could not stand up to the rigours of off shore sailing. .
This is the elitist poop i truly cannot stand. Every time a manufacturer has any popularity and produces in any kind of numbers you start hearing this - once again usually from a-holes who never leave the dock, or even more unbelievably people who don't have a boat at all. When i was doing a lot of power cruising with my folks 25 years ago i cant tell you how many times i heard the same regurgitated bile spewed out against our Bayliner(s). My Dad always took it in stride, simply pointing out to me that we were the ones putting a thousand miles under our hull every season, so we know what we know from first hand experience and what others think is of no consequence. Good advice for a lot of things in life i think...
Whenever I hear/read someone talking about how big a boat needs to be to go to the Bahamas, I usually refer them to Dave and Mindy Bolduc's site: microcruising.com.
Those guys take off for months at a time to the Bahamas in a 15' plywood boat designed by Matt Layden.
My 22' Nomad was originally sailed across the Atlantic to the Caribbean in the late 70s/early 80s by her first owner. He sailed around the Caribbean and Gulf or Mexico for a few years before selling the boat in Houston.
Big boaters don't like to hear that kind of thing, and they will usually bring up their rhetoric about bigger=faster=safer. Then they will be the first to complain when a speed boat passes them at 40 knots, and douses them with a 30' rooster tail! I thought they just said faster was safer?
They make me laugh when they start talking about 8-10 knots being fast! I ride a bicycle somewhere around 20 mph, and that isn't considered fast by anyone on the roads!
When we slow down for school zones, we're creeping along faster than their 8-10 knot fast big boat!
Well, I get a laugh out of them anyway! ;D
I always thought that sailing was its own destination, so why hurry?
Aw man- they went big boat!! Used to cruise the Bahamas in Little cruiser- at 14 feet ;D
Actually, Paradox is 13 foot 10 inches. My Texas200 crew in 2012 built one (she's in Key West now) A guy from Lake Havasu biought the boat and sailed her in the Texas 200 this year. Quite a capable boat
Links to a couple of videos of her in the 200
Day 3-
http://forum.trailersailor.com/post.php?id=1384538
Day 4-
http://forum.trailersailor.com/post.php?id=1384880
And one more that is a gathering of parts of his videos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2FqS5u0WXk&feature=youtu.be
Here's the Paradox (Scout) and my Traveler sitting side by side the last night out at Army Hole
Okay, big boat <rant mode again>:
On one of the Cruising Forums (which shall remain nameless) that caters to mostly big boaters, has a posting by a guy with a 40'+ boat needing advice on an emergency ladder because his transom ladder cannot be accessed with the dinghy in its davits.
He had a reply to his post suggesting a $500 emergency ladder, and several posts suggesting making something with ropes, knots and loops.
The OP said that $500 was way too high, and I posted a comment suggesting that his priorities may be off a bit if he can afford a big 40'+ boat, but not $500 to save his life, or the lives of his loved ones.
That invoked his immediate ire, and he put me on his ignore list (as if I care).
But, I seriously don't get it. These people will spend many (some times hundreds of) thousands on a boat, EPIRB, life boats, PLBs, electronic navigation, A/C, etc., but a $500 ladder to save a life is too much?
Well, how much is a human life worth then?
</rant off>
rant away..... ;D
Travelnik, I understand your frustration with the 'big boat attitude' on some forums.
Recently, I saw a thread on one forum where someone asked about anchoring long term (and leaving the boat unattended from a few days to a couple of weeks). As one who has anchored his boat long term (18 months) including leaving her unattended (for five months), the responses stunned me.
Nearly all the "advice" was to NEVER do this. "It's just not worth it," they claimed. "Too much can happen," they cried. Never mind the specific anchorage they were talking about has dozens of boats in it, and some are indeed left long term.
But, the prize comment, the one that really saddened me, was the one that said it was
"Bad seamanship IMHO to leave a boat unattended at anchor."
I very nearly took the bait and was sorely tempted to compose a scathing reply. The Pardeys did it; Hiscock did it. Many others do it all the time. I did it.
My response, emotionally composed, would have included something like "Perhaps the real lack of seamanship is one who cannot skillfully and confidently anchor their boat, and because of their OWN weakness sees fit to put down those that do."
But, in the end, I decided to let it go. Anything I would say would fall on blind eyes. I decided to let it go and turn my eye to the weather and chart planning of MY next trip....a trip that will involve some tricky navigation. I'd rather be sailing, or even planning my next sail, than online forum sparring with the type of person that gives advice like that.
Don't know what kind of boat he has, but it was a "favors big boats" kind of forum. He did get called out on that comment a small handful of folks. Of course, some of the folks that called him out got criticized...weird thread indeed. One person said they could NEVER leave their boat overnight at anchor. Just stunning...and sad. Running theme was "if you have to leave the boat, that's what marinas are for."
I found that thread by accident. Reading it reinforced why sailfar.net is the ONLY sailing forum I read and participate in.
QuoteDon't know what kind of boat he has, but it was a "favors big boats" kind of forum. He did get called out on that comment a small handful of folks. Of course, some of the folks that called him out got criticized...weird thread indeed. One person said they could NEVER leave their boat overnight at anchor. Just stunning...and sad. Running theme was "if you have to leave the boat, that's what marinas are for."
Run away and don't look back ;)
LOL! when I pull in to a marina in my trouble free 30 year old O'Day 23, and see so many people with expensive hired hands working on big complex boats - it is me that starts to have an aura of superiority! And I must work hard to hide and contain it!
Another huge factor in what you read is the magazines all depend on advertising for their revenue and so you read endless articles about expensive equipment. The other day I pitched an article idea to a magazine and they rejected it because my article was pitching a simple, inexpensive, and yet better way to do something. They don't want articles like that anymore--won't sell advertising.
Sorry if bumping this thread up is a no no but I loved reading this one. I'm planning on doing The Great Loop when I retire in the next year or two. My wife would like something a bit more comfy than the Hunter 23.5 we have right now. A good friend of mine's father has a 36' trawler he is trying to sell. It needs some work but he would be willing to sell to me for a very good price. I went and looked it over and it would be a VERY comfy boat to do the loop in but, the size and complication of the whole boat just threw me off. I mean, 2 engines, generator, all electric galley complete with ice maker, 2 A/C systems and on and on. All housed in a big heavy hull that would pretty much require a good working windlass just to raise anchor. Now this boat is 1979 model and had lots of deferred maintenance and would be lots to keep up. So after much meditation on what I really wanted to do with my retirement, I sat down with the wife and she agreed with me that we don't need such a big complex boat. After all, if something happens to me she would have to be able to handle the boat. We also don't want to be spending all our money on upkeep and fuel for a monster boat. So we'll soon begin looking for something just a bit bigger than our current boat with a real galley and enough room in the v-berth for both of us, but not too big and complex. Probably something older in the 27'-36' range. I will look for a well cared for boat but don't need a lot of fancy systems because we will want to be moving rather than worrying about a broken gadget. Sure we realize there will be things that break but simpler makes maintenance take up less time leaving more time for the good stuff. Until we decide to buy, I will try to do some minor upgrades on the Hunter like more comfy v-berth cushions etc. to make her more comfy on our short cruises. Hey, be happy with whatcha got until you can do better I always say.
Kevin
Nothing at all wrong with bumping up a thread. One reason they are still there ;)
Sounds to me that ya'll are making a wise decision.
By the way- the all electric galley would be an instant turn off for me on ANY boat- hate the things even in houses
Kevin,
My I suggest you joining AGLCA. Its not free but full on information on the loop. For example a member put this on the forum today.
Fuel Costs Total $ Gallons NM/Gal SM/Gal
Average cost / gal $10,582 purchased
4.11 $/Gal Total Cost / Liter 2607.35 1.59 1.83
160 3.79 606.40 Utches
146 4.47 652.62 New Baltimore, NY
240 5.05 1212.00 Rochester, NY
132 5.41 714.12 1.43 Orellia, ON
100 5.64 564.00 1.49 Parry Sound, ON
58 5.41 313.78 1.43 Britt, ON
160 4.10 656.00 Sault Ste Marie, MI
105 4.18 438.90 Manistque, MI
125 3.64 455.00 Egg Harbor,WI
170 4.24 720.63 Wilmington,IL
192 3.81 731.33 Grafton, IL
190 3.78 718.20 Pebbble Isle, TN
107 3.64 389.48 Grand Harbor, TN
147 3.49 513.03 Demopolis, AL
150 3.64 545.85 Fairhope,AL
120 3.27 392.40 Panama City, FL
50 3.15 157.50 Apalachicola, FL
220 3.64 800.80 Sanibel Island
3502 NM and for you dirt people 4025 SM traveled. Average cost of $4.11 is well below my budget of $6 per gallon.
This doesn't include marina fees.
Trawlers are really nice if you can afford one. I'll stick with my sailboat.
Yeah, the boat would be a marina hopper or we would have to run the generator just to cook and run the 'fridge. Who wants that when you're anchored out trying to have a quiet evening.
Kevin
Grime I have seen their site and intend to join as I get closer to time to depart. There are other sites that give lots of good info on the trip too. I did the math also taking into account the average fuel burn of the trawler and came up with about $15000 just for fuel to do the loop. This was not my main reason to not go with a trawler though. It had more to do with being more attuned to nature on a sailboat. Also a bit of self sufficiency. Even though the boat I was looking at had twin engines giving a redundancy factor, I still feel sail with auxiliary power is a better and for sure a more efficient way. Then there is the size factor. A 36' sail boat is for me, more manageable than a 36 foot trawler in most conditions. Sailboats ride better in rough conditions too. Lastly, there is just the romance of it all. When you can turn off the engine and move under sail alone is magical to me and I'm a gearhead car, motorcycle, any kinda boat luvin' fool. LOL. So it all came down to what kind of boat I want for long term ownership and travel on.
A friend just posted on their blog their first year expensive on their 45' center cockpit Morgan. I was shocked and still can't get my head around their figures. $50,000+ a couple hundred. With that kind of spending I would have thought they were on a trawler.
We have a 27' Watkins with a small budget to cruise full time. CJ did it and I fell we can to. We are thinking about the great loop.
Yeah Grime- I read that myself and was totally blown away. When I cruised the very first time, on my trimaran, three of us did almost two years on 7 grand, total.. Of course the entire last year the boat never laid to a dock. Realizing that was 1982-84, but still
I feel I could go pretty close to 10 years on that money.
Quote from: Tallswede on December 06, 2014, 01:42:23 PM
My wife would like something a bit more comfy than the Hunter 23.5 we have right now. A good friend of mine's father has a 36' trawler he is trying to sell. It needs some work but he would be willing to sell to me for a very good price. I went and looked it over and it would be a VERY comfy boat to do the loop in but, the size and complication of the whole boat just threw me off.
So the Hunter 23.5 is about 2500 pounds and the 36 foot trawler is maybe 20,000 pounds? Yup, would suggest checking out a size or two in between. :)
Was just reading about a trawler that size with a 350 gallon fuel tank that burns over
3 gallons per hour [with a single motor]. I think that I would have nightmares about pulling up to the fuel dock, saying "fill her up" and watching the total gallons climb up into the hundreds of gallons. With twin motors, maybe burning, what? 4 or 5 or more gallons per hour? ???
Awhile back I bought a classic sailboat from a guy with a motor yacht and he said that he just wanted to get some gas money. For what the boat sold for he could fill up his tanks twice, and burn it up in two weekends.
So the value of this timeless sailboat literally went up in smoke that quickly. I had heard that there were people who did this routinely, but this was the first time that I had met someone that actually did. It was definitely outside of my realm of experience, outside of my concept of what a boat was.
[Oh, and... Welcome, Kevin.]
QuoteMy wife would like something a bit more comfy than the Hunter 23.5 we have right now. A good friend of mine's father has a 36' trawler he is trying to sell. It needs some work but he would be willing to sell to me for a very good price. I went and looked it over and it would be a VERY comfy boat to do the loop in but, the size and complication of the whole boat just threw me off.
I was just reading a blog the other day about a couple that is currently doing the Great Loop. They own a 47 foot motor yacht, but decided it would be way too expensive to do the loop in, so they bought an older Hunter 27 and left the mast behind and are currently motoring that around the loop.
Here is the link to their blog - https://davidbarger.wordpress.com (https://davidbarger.wordpress.com)
Grime, my wife and I have chartered a Watkins 27 several times and really like that boat. I'm sure it would make an excellent Great Loop boat. David, thanks for the link to the Barger's blog. I'm looking forward to following their progress.
Kevin
Standard reply for the people who express an opinion about 20-30'ish boats being too small for safety reasons, when compared to their 40-50'ishers:
Tell them to read Adlard Coles "Heavy Weather Sailing". After his (exhaustive) study of the topic, he states that _any boat that is under 60'_ can get rolled, and only in boats over 60' do those chances *begin to diminish*.
So if they are going to claim "larger is better" for safety reasons, then they'd best be prepared to get REALLY large. :)
Love this thread, I have nothing to add its mostly been said. :)
Tallswede - I would take the Hunter! or something similar. So many little nooks along a river! Sometimes you can tie between two tree branches. Not to mention creek inlets! When you can be so close to the bank, and easy to jump off and walk around, life might seem larger than on a trawler! I would want a long, strong, light, plank with some sort of bullet proof padding under the boat end - that would protect the deck, no matter which way I angled the plank. OR start planning early and build a long very narrow john boat, that would serve as pull behind dinghy and/or a get to shore plank.
it sure would be good to know that a complete engine/trans/prop failure could be handled in minutes, with nothing more than a taxi cab and credit card.
We just might take the Hunter if I can make my bride comfy enough on it. We will do some coastal overnighters and gunkholing here in Texas this year and decide if we still want a larger boat. If it was just me, I would leave on the Hunter this April and at least make it to Florida possibly trailering back home for the summer hurricane season. Lots of options with a trailer sailer.
Kevin
I have tentative plans to leave here sometime March, April and sail eastward. Make a gathering in Pensacola in June, then just kick around til I feel like coming back.
I have no idea how far the end will see me ;D