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Quote from: Porter Wayfare

Greetings all.

My wife and I are retired, healthy and not-quite-out-of-money. A very lucky place to be. Speaking of lucky places to be, a number of years ago I awoke from a dream with a clear and very important message. The message was: If you are lucky enough to be alive on Earth and you are not living next to the ocean, you are just throwing your life away.

Well, I'm near Port Huron, MI, at least. I did live next to the ocean for a while in Guinea, West Africa but that's another story.

It may be off topic in this forum by about 500-and-some feet, but I got my first taste of sailing working on a 1905 556' ore freighter in the mid sixties. That is another story too. It was like working in a finely cared-for museum.

A couple of other attempts at sailing ended wildly out of control. But I always felt I had it in me.

So when tag-teaming with my sister to care for our mother came to an end in the late fall of 2010, I hit the water in a dry suit and a Laser. I sailed until the deck iced up.

A Wayfarer, with our serendipitously similar names, has been my goal for a long time and in the summer of 2011 I finally found a beauty. She's wood. I sailed her almost every day into December. It seems like the wild days are a little behind me. My wife has noticed that. She wants to sail.

So, here's the evolution of our thinking, my wife and me. She wants to sail but doesn't want to camp out on our woodie Wayfarer dinghy for two weeks at a time. She does camp out every year for a while, so she knows what she's talking about. I guess that means a cabin.

I'm satisfied with the Wayfarer. I tend toward small. Looking at tons of boats on the internet and reading a few books, I gravitated to something along the Alberg line. We looked at a Cape Dory Typhoon Weekender. It was a really nice boat and fit the bill for me. The trailer was even better. But the cuddy was very small and so low I couldn't even sit up straight. Still, I would have gone for it, but she said it was just too small. OK, I'll go along with that.

So now what I'm looking for is a Typhoon with standing headroom. I guess that means: not more than 27' LOD, relatively narrow beam, relatively low freeboard, around 50% B/D, and a galley, at least. Add to that maybe (but what do I know?) something fun about the sails to play with like a fractional rig or a cutter, a tiller, and shallower than 4' (3'6" is better).

And oh, yes, it's got to be pretty. Every time I see the Wayfarer it strikes me how pretty she is and you know how that goes for getting involved.

We're not in a position (or experienced enough!) to jump onto a boat for long periods of time right now. We can get away for a week or two at a time several times a year, spring and early summer being the least likely, and more likely as the year goes on toward winter. We live between Port Huron and Bay City, Michigan.

We're most interested in sailing around islands in the Great Lakes, say Les Cheneaux, Georgian Bay, the islands around Rossport on the north side of Superior. Then there is the Trent-Severn waterway and the Rideau Canal...and on and on.
The Maritimes...mais oui!. We're not very interested in sailing south. Trailerable puts all those places within a couple week's reach.

People who (like you, by now) have been kind enough to sit through my snowballing boat-parameter spiels have calmly told me at the end of it that I am describing a Cape Dory 25D.

As for speed vs seaworthiness, my wife and I both lean to seaworthiness where big water is concerned, for sure. It's just the two of us for cruising--maybe a couple more for an afternoon, but that's all.

As far as a fixer-upper goes--I want a really nice boat. The nicer the better. I'll keep it that way. I have indoor storage available. But I don't I want to redo it. I want to sail it.

I'm obsessed it's fair to say. Am I in the right place? When I stumbled across this site in a search for CD25Ds the couple of threads I read led me to believe I might be. I was impressed by the down-to-earth level of the discussion. (Which reminds me: I think it was Issac Asimov who said something like, Any outsider looking at this planet would not call it "Earth". They'd call it "Ocean.")

I'm hoping that I may be able to get the help of some experienced eyes and ears to find a boat. If this introduction is not the place to ask for help like that, please direct me to the right one.

So thanks for letting me come onboard.
Porter

Welcome aboard Wafare

You have come to the right place. A ton of great small boat knowledge here without all the usual forum drama.

Sounds like you have had some great adventures. Would love to hear hear about those some day if you feel like sharing.

Good luck on your boat search. I know exactly how boat hunting is as I just ended my search last week when I found a great deal on a Pearson Ariel.

Here are some boats to keep a look out for while you search:

Pearson Ariel 26
Pearson Triton 28
Bristol 24, 26, and 27
Cape Dory 25 and 25D very different boats from each other
Albin Vega 27
Flicka 20
Falmouth Cutter 22
Rhodes Meridian 25


(Edit by Captain Smollett: quoted original post for context after moving thread)

Chattcatdaddy,
Interestingly, your post

http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php/topic,3451.msg37717.html#msg37717

about finding your Ariel was one of the posts I read that led me to believe that sailFar was a serious and valuable forum.

Besides wanting to hear from anybody here about a nice CD25D for sale, I'd be really interested to know what boat search strategies have paid off for folks here in the past. I mean, I look on Boat Trader and Yacht World and Sailboat Listings and Craigslist, EBay and the Cape Dory site, but I have a feeling there must be better ways.

I'd go around to the marinas here in Michigan, but most I've called are closed for the winter or the boats aren't accessible.

I have the time to put into this now, but come spring I start to get busy growing things.

So what's a good method?

Thanks all,
Porter

have you tried sail Texas there are numerous listings all over the nation. Might be the way to go

Jotruk,
Yes, SailingTexas too. I've been looking at charts of the places we're interested in sailing to see how much we lose if we go deeper than 3'6" draft. That's a hard call.
Porter

Quote from: Porter Wayfare on January 15, 2012, 11:42:28 AM
Jotruk,
Yes, SailingTexas too. I've been looking at charts of the places we're interested in sailing to see how much we lose if we go deeper than 3'6" draft. That's a hard call.
Porter

Hi Porter,

I don't know where you plan to sail (long term), but don't discount the 'benefits' tides might give you...

For example, we anchored here,

(http://sailfar.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10005/normal_ShemCrkAnchorage.png)

for over 12 hours...more than one tide cycle, and never touched bottom in a 4.25 ft draft boat.

Then again, about two hours after leaving that anchorage, we did this

(http://sailfar.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10005/normal_2007_10_0442_small.jpeg)

So what do I know?

;D

Good luck on your search.  Looking for boats, looking AT boats, is almost as fun as sailing them.

PS:  I did see you mentioned the Great Lakes, so tides helping may be out....didn't know what other longer term plans you might have...)

I split this from the Introduction Thread (http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php/topic,575.msg38692.html#msg38692) so Porter could have his own place to discuss his boat search and the replies would not get lost in future introductions.

Cap'n,
I really appreciate the consideration!

As far as the two picture you posted above regarding the implications of draft, I think the chart in the first anchorage might have actually been in fathoms, while the chart you were using in the second instance must have been in hands, a unit usually reserved for measuring horses, but sporadically used on nautical charts, where if not noticed, it is often the source of what you experienced.

I'm smack in the middle of the Great Lakes and I'll be here for a while so I am leaving the understanding of tides, etc., for another day.

Porter

Quote from: Porter Wayfare on January 16, 2012, 03:05:24 PM

As far as the two picture you posted above regarding the implications of draft, I think the chart in the first anchorage might have actually been in fathoms, while the chart you were using in the second instance must have been in hands, a unit usually reserved for measuring horses, but sporadically used on nautical charts, where if not noticed, it is often the source of what you experienced.

Well, my ego thanks you for that thought.

But alas, the first chart WAS in feet...but in an area with a 6 foot or so tide range (and a Spring Tide at that), so I really had the water.

For the second, well, I cannot blame a chart error or even a chart READING error for that one.  Just one of those things...   ;)

To add to the list of "possibles"...
Pearson Renegade 27 (can't believe no one mentioned it yet)
Falmouth Cutter 22

Wishing you the best of luck in finding the boat you love!

Greetings,
I had someone from SailFar contact me about a Renegade. I looked at the Pearson 27 and wrote him back that it was a little too modern for my taste. He explained I was looking at the wrong boat. He was right. The Renegade is a much nicer looking boat. It does look like the Ariel.

Like I said, I'm coming from sailing a dinghy. When I look at a chart unless there's a rock sticking out I can sail in it--almost. I guess I've kind of gotten spoiled by that.

When I think about going to a keelboat that shallow draft part is the part I really hate to give up. For a while I'll be sailing around islands in the Great Lakes--Huron and Superior. I've got it in my head that I don't want to go deeper than 3'6", but you know--really--in terms of what that actually means as far as where I can go at 3'6" that I couldn't if I drew 4'--I don't know. It's just a hunch.

Thanks for helping me along,
Porter

Porter,

Best of luck in your search for a CD25D. I've owned mine for 8 years now, and find it to be the ideal size for me and my mostly-non-sailing wife.

You might want to check out the Cape Dory Sailboat Owners Association (CDSOA) message board (www.capedory.org (http://www.capedory.org)), but as you've probably already discovered, 25Ds are few and far between. The other Alberg designs cited by others on this board, especially the Ariel, are very similar and equally seaworthy.

One of my Cape Dory colleagues wanted to upgrade from a Typhoon Weekender to a 25D, and it took him three years of searching. However, I think he was very picky and didn't want to pay what the market will bear for one of these sweet little boats.

Keep your eyes open, and your search will probably be rewarded, especially if you're willing to travel a bit (there are lots of Cape Dorys here in Massachusetts, as well as on the Chesapeake).

Best of luck,

--Joe

Ahoy!
What's the scoop on a Bristol 24? I may have something to look at. Any experience you can lend is appreciated.
Porter

Quote from: Porter Wayfare on January 17, 2012, 10:44:21 AM
What's the scoop on a Bristol 24?

Bristol "Corsair" or 24 is a fine boat with a handsome full-keel design. Because of the boat's age, be sure to check things like the chainplates.

I've never sailed this model, but I have sailed some of the other Alberg Bristols. Definitely worth a look.

Good luck,

--Joe

Quote from: Porter Wayfare on January 17, 2012, 10:44:21 AM
Ahoy!
What's the scoop on a Bristol 24? I may have something to look at. Any experience you can lend is appreciated.
Porter

Some were really nice, some not so nice... check the bilge area for lead ballast vs. iron scrap plus concrete. They can range from spare and spartan inside to nearly luxurious with teak and mahogany. I believe the Corsair was a Paul Coble design, a little higher in the forward area than most of Carl Alberg's design, but translates to a little more room in the vee-berth area. The only boat Coble designed, going into work on Navy vessels for the rest of his career. Heavily-ballasted.

I've sailed our 1976 Bristol 24 since 2007. I did a 1000 mile trip from Kentucky Lake to Tarpon Springs Fl. The boat sails very well, and is capable of handling blue water. Ours has a 1 cylinder diesel that is very handy for long trips.

Try and find one with lead ballast instead of concrete. Although; if the concrete had enough steel scrap added, it is ok. The ones with lead ballast have a bilge about 1' deep. The concrete ballasted boats have a very shallow ballast.

I think you will like a Bristol 24 as much as a similarly equiped CD 25D.

Okabow,

Did yours have the wood or the white laminate interior? After I saw the white interior of Chatcatdaddy's new Ariel I was sold on white. I wonder how the laminate holds up.

Somewhere somebody mentioned beefing up the chainplates and moving them outboard. I assume they meant the shroud attachments...? Look at this one:

http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/13650

What do you think of that boat?

Porter

Looks like an outstanding boat!

The price is on the high side, but the equipment and modifications are worth it. I would want to check the condition of all the sails. New motor. That's a real plus. Check the decks, cabin top and cockpit for soft spots. The chainplates have been moved to the hull, and an extra shroud added. That's good. Check the mast support beam inside, to see if there are any stress cracks.

For that money, I would want a sea trial and a survey from a trusted professional.

Chuck

Quote from: okawbow on January 17, 2012, 08:51:31 PM
Looks like an outstanding boat!

The price is on the high side, but the equipment and modifications are worth it. I would want to check the condition of all the sails. New motor. That's a real plus. Check the decks, cabin top and cockpit for soft spots. The chainplates have been moved to the hull, and an extra shroud added. That's good. Check the mast support beam inside, to see if there are any stress cracks.

For that money, I would want a sea trial and a survey from a trusted professional.

Chuck

Agreed. Much nicer inside than many. Presuming addressing all the deficiencies of the original means they actually improved upon, looks like a nice boat.

I'm coming from a land based background: I designed and built houses. I know how real estate goes--who is generally expected to pay for what. In boat trading, who is expected to pay for what? Like a survey for instance. I know everything can be negotiated, but it's nice not to wade into something and ruffle feathers.
Porter

You should hire the surveyor- then he's working for YOU, not the seller. Also you should cover any extra haul-outs needed for the survey. Nice if it's already on the hard-  saves money ;)

Quote from: CharlieJ on January 18, 2012, 09:55:12 AM
You should hire the surveyor- then he's working for YOU, not the seller. Also you should cover any extra haul-outs needed for the survey. Nice if it's already on the hard-  saves money ;)

Absolutely agree with Charlie. If you're serious about the boat, hire a surveyor! The cost is trivial when factored into all the costs of boat ownership.

--Joe

Whoo man. This is a slippery slope.

I am going to look at a CD27. I am smack up against the upper end of the size parameters I set for myself, but what do you think?

It's not totally out of the realm to get this thing on a trailer, is it? Or is it....

This is just a first look, but what should I key on to decide whether I call a surveyor?

I'm getting a little nervous here.
Porter

When I bought Mathilda, and I'll be the first to say that I tend to do things a little "differently", I decided what I wanted my total cost to be. Then I looked for a boat that was half that or less. As I looked at the boat, I went with a very critical eye (basically start casting mental aspersions as soon as you walk up) and made a list of  everything that needed to be fixed or replaced. If the total of the purchase price and the list are more than your grand total, walk away. Or, find a way to justify it.....  ;D

Porter:

The CD27 is considered one of the most perfectly proportioned of the boats that Carl Alberg designed for Cape Dory. (Just ask Dave Perry of Robinhood Marine--he's owned one for more than 30 years, and he was once the marketing manager for Cape Dory.)

Under sail, the 27 outperforms the larger and more common CD28. But for that grace (and the beautiful stern overhang), you get a narrower hull.

It's one of my favorite boats (you can probably tell), and I've sailed a friend's 27 several times. But this boat is at the extreme high end of trailerability. You'll need a big trailer and a heavy-duty tow vehicle.

I'd say, "Go for it," but--once again--get a surveyor if you're serious. And think twice before trying to turn a 27 into a trailerboat.

Oops, I almost forgot to list things to look for:

Soggy deck core, check the chainplates and things like the engine's exhaust elbow (replaceable) and the condition of the fuel tank (if it's the original, be sure that it's not got any corrosion--that could ruin your day for sure).

Any other suggestions from SailFarers?

--Joe

--Joe

I've loaded and unloaded a CD27 from a trailer using a boat ramp before.  So it's possible.  But it's going to take some planning and some care (I fabricated a wheel to attach to the front of the trailer and used a chain between the truck and trailer to roll the trailer back into the water.)  If I remember correctly it's even legal to pull down the road.... (Narrow enough beam to be legal)

The CD27 is rumored to sail the best of all the Cape Dory's and is considered by many to be the prettiest also.  I wouldn't let the size of the 27 deter you; she is only 1500#'s bigger.  Somewhat familiar with both boats, I would probably take the CD27 *everything else being equal*.  (I'm easily drawn towards "pretty" though)

Research a bit into the chainplates (actually backing plates for the padeyes) on a Cape Dory, that's something to be aware of.  The cape dory will also have a hull liner (preventing access to those wonderful backing plates), and I don't think the Bristol does.  Check carefully around all the hardware on the deck and cabin top, especially around the mast and the base of the tiller, deck fills too.  Any cracks in the gel coat should be considered suspect too.  (a moisture meter would be a great help here, if not essential)  Cape Dory left multiple avenues for water ingress to my balsa core, and the water did just that...  (It was not detectable without a moisture meter.)

A B27 came with my trailer and it was built considerably better than my CD28, but it didn't have all the fancy teak and bronze and a few other nice things like a seahood and such...  :)  It's all a tradeoff.  While the B27 I owned for a short while was impressively built, with obvious skill and care, I have heard that they are not all that way.  And while they obviously missed the boat on a few things with my CD28, I hear that they are not all that way either.  Reputation will have to take back seat to your up close and personal observations.

Oh and I agree with Joe, dont think you'll be making a trailer sailer out of the CD27.  But then again you wont out of the B24 either.  I have pulled a B27, A CD27 and A CD28 down the road, and I think I've moved them all safely.  It's a serious endevor though, and if you are going to haul that much weight down the road you better do your homework, and check all your equipment carefully.  I use a 3/4 ton truck, load levelling hitch and a Triad trailer, with very good brakes and I would consider that a bare minimum for hauling any of those boats.  It's not a casual affair. 

I can't thank you guys enough for the perspective you're lending me!

The trailerability issue in an important one. That's why I was ready to jump on a CD Typhoon Weekender with a perfect Trident trailer! But my wife promised it would be a long weekend if it even lasted....

To tell you the truth, of the three, the CD 25D, the CD 26 and the CD27, I am most smitten by the CD 26--at least as far as the line drawings go. Actually I am very smitten. They're all beautiful, really, but looking at them side-by-side, the 25 is a little too up at the bow, the 27 is a little too straight, but the 26 is just right.

In addition, the cabin layout of the 25D is "all in one place." My wife and I like the look of a V berth as "a bit of a place to get away." Not much, I understand, but I bet every bit helps.

And at 5300 lbs displacement as compared to the 7500 lbs of the CD 27, we may have moved back into the realm of trailerability. (I've worked dairy farming and construction so I've managed some pretty heavy stuff.}

So at the risk of making a nuisance of myself, what's the thinking about a CD 26? Probably an outboard, although I would go for an inboard if I could find one.

Carry on...
Porter

Quote

The trailerability issue in an important one.

Porter, may I ask how you define "trailerable?"  Sometimes that means the boat will fit on a trailer and can be towed down the road, and MAYBE be launched at a regular ramp.  That's the looser definition.

For a lot of us, when we hear "trailerable," we think a little more along the lines of "easy to trailer SAIL."  That is, the emphasis is on convenient set-up, launch, retrieval and derigging.

I knew a guy with a CD Typhoon and he did not really consider it "trailerable."  He had a trailer and did in fact trailer launch it (with some effort), but rather he launched and kept her in a slip.

It's not really a 'do it often' kind of deal, at least that's what I got from him.  Tim and other Typhoon owners, you have input on this?

My 18 footer is trailerable in the stricter sense...arrive at the ramp parking lot and be underway in 45 minutes or less...often 30 minutes, and that's by myself.  She draws 12" with the centerboard up, and only weighs 1350 lbs (fairly easy to load on a trailer).

Newer boats with well-thought-out set-ups, like the Compac catboats, setup time is 10 minutes or so...not much more than your average bass boat at the ramp.

If you want a truly trailerable boat to explore the Lakes and beyond, this aspect merits careful consideration.  It fully depends on how often you want to go sailing and if you are sailing off the trailer each and every time.  There are boats that are both fairly comfortable to cruise that are also easy to 'trailer-sail,' but the full-keel models on your list (including perhaps the Typhoon) may not be the best choice for what you want right now.

I say "may" because I don't know...just throwing it out there.

The weight and physical size of the boat might be a lower consideration...the right truck and trailer solves that problem.  But, getting the boat on and off are separate issues.

One of the biggest issues is raising the mast.  Any 25-27 footer is going to have a pretty big stick to raise; that will require some 'engineering' to get convenient to want to do it often.

Another is draft...some ramps are better than others.  Swing keel or centerboard boats 'shine' as trailer sailers, and well, some folks (not all by any stretch) like the idea of water ballast to give stability on the water while keeping towing weight light.

There are some very innovative strategies to making a boat "cruisable" on the water and easy/safe to tow on the trailer...and easy to go between these two 'states.'

The majority of 'comfortable cruising boats' that are used off the trailer a lot are in the 24-26 foot range and usually don't have full keels.

If you are only talking about occasionally trailering the boat (launching once a year or something), then none of this matters.

Had a long phone conversation with Fred Bingham some years ago, discussing this very point. We were talking about his various Allegra designs. Fred was Bruce Bingham's father for those who don't know the name. Bruce is the designer of the Flicka.

At any rate, we talked about trailerabilty and he sorta coined a phrase that suits-
Allegra's, and boats of that size, such as my 5300 pound full keel Tehani, are "highway legal"

Boats that can easily be rigged and launched are "trailerable"

There is a vast difference.

Be careful if you get to meet a CD27 in person, cause she will smite you!  I own a 28 and I've been around several 25's and I'm pretty sure I've seen a 26 at some point or another.  The 27 wins hands down in my book when it comes to "smiting good looks"

While it's a hassle to trailer these larger boats, I really think the biggest issue is launching, retrieving and rigging them.  So while you are looking into it all you might look at what facilities will be available to you.  Specifically what's available to step the mast, and how deep of a draft can be trailer launched, etc etc.  

My experience is that if you are going to launch and retreive once a year, then any of the boats will do (I have a friend who does this with a 28' Pearson Triton).  If you plan on driving her out each weekend, I suspect that you will want the smallest boat your wife will tolerate, infact perhaps even smaller....  We did this for awhile with a catalina 22 and while we became proficient at the whole process, it was a hassle for a simple day sail.

I see that C. Smollett has beat me to it!  I'll go head and submit the above post and add "yeah what he said!"

Ah, the fog is lifting.

Right now I sail a Wayfarer dinghy: 15'10", 375 lbs, 8" draft board up. I can launch and retrieve it alone without getting the axle of the trailer in the water. A foot is plenty. I step the 21' wood mast by hand. Half an hour in or out. That's trailerable.

The guy with the Typhoon did the same except for the part about not getting the axle of the trailer in the water. The tongue had an extension. He did it with a small Buick, I forget the model. I think a big part of it was the fabulously well designed trailer he had. It was made for the boat.

"Highway legal"-what a great way to put it! I get it! Our thinking on the frequency-of-trailering of a big boat is three or four times a year for a couple of weeks at a time. So that takes some further consideration....

If we're just going for a day or overnight we take the Wayfarer. I love sailing that boat. Every little thing you do has an apparent effect. And it can go almost anywhere.

I just made an appointment to look at a CD 27 tomorrow at noon. So, here goes!

Smite away,
Porter

Quote from: Porter Wayfare on January 18, 2012, 07:13:51 PMI just made an appointment to look at a CD 27 tomorrow at noon. So, here goes! Smite away,
Porter

She'll steal your heart!

BTW, I don't personally know anybody who owns a CD26, but only 78 were built, so your chances of finding one are even slimmer than finding a 25D.

Go ahead, check out that 27 and, if she's sound, take the plunge. You'll never regret it.

--Joe
P.S. I make no pretense of being objective on this subject. How can you be objective about sailing? ;D

Well, I'd have to say my main impression of this boat, a CD 27 hull #5, was shabby. She's being neglected. She's on the hard and has been for a couple of years, uncovered here in Michigan. Every paint surface was peeling. When I opened the cabin the first thing I noticed was the smell of diesel fuel--not auspicious. The bilge had water with fuel floating on top.

I don't know if I'm going to pursue this one for now. There are others to look at first.

Boats get bigger exponentially to their length, don't they! Driving through the marina I saw rudders bigger than my Wayfarer!

Heart not yet taken. Onward,
Porter

Just have to keep looking. Lot of poop boats out there, and you never know until you go to look. I searched night and day for boats thru criagslist, ebay, sailboatlistings, sailingtexas, you name it and I was searching on it. Finally found my Ariel well outside my search area.

Just remember that the wrong boat in the right location is still the wrong boat. Right boat in a bad location can be moved and you will not regret it later.

Keep searching and before you know it you will have a boat you can proud to sail.

Quote from: Chattcatdaddy on January 19, 2012, 03:44:21 PM
Just have to keep looking.

Well, I guess this 27 won't steal your heart--or your wallet.

Keep looking, and best of luck.

--Joe

I'm off to the Toronto Boat Show tomorrow. In the area is a Vega, an Alberg 22 (I hope) and a Bristol 24 Corsair. So we'll see....

If I may...
There's a Hinterhoeller H28 for sale in Toronto. I searched SailFar for H28's but didn't get what I wanted. You know, it doesn't look too bad. Draft is good. What's the thinking here on it?

Thanks in advance, as always,
Porter

The Alberg 22 I saw in Toronto was not so hot. While not so messy inside as the CD 27 I saw in Detroit, it was uncovered and loaded onto the cradle in such a way that three of the four pads were pressing dents into the hull. The dents looked to be about an inch deep. No cracks, but it looked like the boat had been on the cradle for some time. Bummer.

The nice part was--my wife's desire for standing headroom aside--I can imagine being quite satisfied with the cabin. The boat also struck me as manageable on a trailer in the way the Typhoon did and the CD 27 certainly did not.

The Bristol 24 near Toronto sold before I could see it. I didn't make it to the Hinterhoeller 28, and I notice that no one here has offered an opinion on the H 28 either. What does that mean?

I did see a Contessa 26. It was an old one and needed paint. It was locked up so I couldn't get inside, but it seems like a lot of boat to deal with and still not have standing headroom. Still she was nice looking, that's for sure. It's a little too deep for me though.

As much as the weight, the depth of the keel looks to be a critical factor in trailer-ability.

I loved the look and feel of the Alberg 22, but it's going to be a hard sell.

Onward,
Porter

Greetings,
I need some help here: does anybody know anything about the "Olympic Star 23" built in Montreal. It's pretty obscure from what little I can find, but I kind of like what I see. I've run across a reference to its being solid fiberglass, i.e., no core. It's on SailboatData, if you're interested. I have an opportunity to check one out. Opinions? Experience?

I'm concerned I'm acting like a cat looking at birds through the window.

Porter

Quote from: Porter Wayfare on February 01, 2012, 03:42:54 PM
Greetings,
I need some help here: does anybody know anything about the "Olympic Star 23" built in Montreal. It's pretty obscure from what little I can find, but I kind of like what I see. I've run across a reference to its being solid fiberglass, i.e., no core. It's on SailboatData, if you're interested. I have an opportunity to check one out. Opinions? Experience?

I'm concerned I'm acting like a cat looking at birds through the window.

Porter

..... "cat looking at birds through the window"......... that's funny......
Here's the link to the boat on sailboatdata.com just to make it easier.....

http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=4980

Then there's always the Kenner Kittiwake - one comes up for sale from time to time. At 23' long, it might do for you.

Eight bells here. Good morning.

My wife and I just got back from a whirlwind boat viewing trip from north of Detroit to Illinois and Wisconsin. It was very productive. Our focus is narrowing and we are much more able to actually see what we are looking at. We saw a lot of boats but we were specifically looking at a Cape Dory 25D, a Cape Dory 27 and by good luck a Cape Dory 26.

So now we have some specific kinds of questions that I will be asking here as I think of them.

Like: 1) A CD 25D looks pretty big on a cradle. Assuming that some of you here who own a CD 25D can actually launch and retrieve off a trailer--and I'd like to hear something about what that's like--can you actually step the mast with a gin pole, or do you need a crane? My dinghy has a tabernacle. Can a larger boat be refit with one?

This is getting really interesting. You (all) were right: the 27 is a really nice boat. It feels really nice inside!

Porter

Quote from: Porter Wayfare on February 05, 2012, 08:48:35 AM
Like: 1) A CD 25D looks pretty big on a cradle. Assuming that some of you here who own a CD 25D can actually launch and retrieve off a trailer--and I'd like to hear something about what that's like--can you actually step the mast with a gin pole, or do you need a crane? My dinghy has a tabernacle. Can a larger boat be refit with one?

Hi Porter,

I've been sailing a Cape Dory 25D since 2003, and I find it to be a wonderful "little big boat."

However, I think it would be a very difficult boat to trailer, although I believe there is at least one owner who has done so.

If you have more detailed questions about the 25D, and any other Cape Dory boat, I'd suggest that you register (it's free) on the Cape Dory Sailboat Owners Association forum (www.capedory.org (http://www.capedory.org)) and post your questions.

It's a wonderful source of information. CDers are an enthusiastic bunch of people with years worth of experience. Pay the site a visit.

(DISCLOSURE: I've been a compulsive poster on the CDSOA board for years, and I was just elected a regional officer of the association.)

Best of luck in your search,

--Joe

Quote from: Porter Wayfare on February 05, 2012, 08:48:35 AM

My dinghy has a tabernacle. Can a larger boat be refit with one?

Yes, though depending on the boat, you will still need some sort of mechanical advantage to handle the mast.  Lots of boats have been rigged with tabernacles.

Notable and relevant to your question is Yves Gelinas' Alberg 30 Jean du Sud.  Not only did he set it up to raise the mast by himself, but also, it was OVERSIZE even for an Alberg 30!

So, bigger boats can be thus rigged, though it may involve some custom work/machining your part to accomplish it.

Years ago, when I got my Cape Dory Typhoon 19, I decided to get a galvanized trailer with a "float-off" design for it. I was reluctant to make the investment in the trailer--they are not inexpensive (mine was about $2800 in 1994), but neither is paying a boatyard to haul/launch and store a keelboat. Of course, the cost of services are unrecoverable, whereas the investment in the trailer buys you an asset that you own and has value, and that you can resell. Even at my relatively inexpensive Maine costs, I estimate the trailer paid for itself in 3 or 4 years--considering only the basic storage. There were also other benefits...with a trailer, the boat becomes a trailer-sailer which gives you a vast range for sailing. When you store the boat at home, it is near your shop and tools, and there is no commute to go work on it, or another trip to get a tool you didn't know you would need, etc.  You are self-sufficient and can do everything on your own schedule.  This is especially nice when, like last season, a hurricane is heading your way and to haul out in the yard you may have to commit way ahead and go through with it in order to get on a yard or haulers busy schedule.

I still have the trailer, and it has been trouble free for 20 years, and still looks just a few years old. Needs new hydraulic brake lines. It has turned out to be one of the best investments I've ever made. Even at a $3000 cost and 30 year life, it would be $100 per year (plus registration, maintenance). I recently saw a similar used galvanized Triad (perhaps 10 years old) in MA for $1500.  

The same manufacturer, Triad Trailer (now of NC) makes custom designed trailers for many boat models. I just checked their website (http://www.triadtrailers.com/) and found a photo of their tandem trailer for a Cape Dory 25D among their photos (see below--I'd pay the extra to get a galvanized version if I was floating the boat off and on). It shows a similar float-off bow stop, and could be equipped with an extendable tongue (the one on the Typhoon trailer is 8 or 10 feet long). With the bow stop, you have the winch above water (and the winch person), the keel guide boards and adjustable poppets guide the boat into position. [The CD25D is larger than the Typhoon, but I would expect that the whole system would work in a similar way. Tow it up into the parking lot and lower your (hinged) mast [using a bipod setup and the trailer winch] and lash it down on fenders, shorten your extending tongue, put on your tie-down straps, and that's about it. Have an inexpensive powerwasher at home to clean off the bottom when I get there (before it dries out).]  

I've towed the Typhoon many miles, launched, and hauled out with a small pickup with no problems. I've towed boats about the size and weight of a CD-25D with my 15 year old F150 4x4 and 4.9L 6 cylinder. For longer distances you would probably want a 3/4 ton (although the newer pickups have more capacity than mine). Have towed a Centaur on another Triad trailer (probably about 8500 pounds combined) with a 3/4 ton, and didn't really have any difficulties. It's just a matter of having sufficient power, brakes, suspension, etc. It does take time to adjust your driving and to become comfortable. If you need to get a tow vehicle just to tow the boat, that is a cost to factor in. For me it was a used one and not very expensive, and I have many other uses for it, to spread the cost over. If I wasn't doing any trailer-sailing, maybe renting a heavy-duty pickup (or hiring with driver) to tow the boat to and from the local ramp once a year, might be an economical option.

I do think that going much larger than a 26-foot/7,000-lb boat does get you increasingly into the range of diminished returns on the additional difficulty and cost. I've seen Alberg 30s on their own trailers, but most of boats this size and larger, are setup to be lifted off and onto the trailer [by a boatyard travel-lift and launched or hauled out; and often the yard will also step/unstep its (larger) mast], but even then it was still (apparently) worth it for the other savings and benefits. [I've also been fortunate to have lived in a semi-rural area where I have the space in the yard to store a boat, and it isn't banned by zoning, etc.]

Good luck with your search.
-Jim

yes, a boat the size of the CD 25 can be trailered with the right trailer and truck. We have Trailered and launched our Bristol 24 many times. I retrieved and trailered the Bristol from Tarpon Springs, Fl to Illinois by myself. We have a hinge on the mast, and can raise it with 3 people, or with a winch system.

I built our trailer. It has hydraulic brakes on 2 axles. It's rated for 10,000 lbs. I pull it with a Ford 350 pickup with a 5.4 l gas motor.

Here is the trailer with our new project; a Privateer 26. We picked the boat up in New Bern, NC and hauled it over the mountains to Illinois with no trouble.

These answers are exactly what made me feel this site was a goldmine.

I can imagine about what it would take to hinge the mast of a CD 25D or a CD 26. And the first keel boat I looked at was a Typhoon on a Triad trailer. It was the excellent trailer setup that encouraged me to push on.

My situation pretty closely matches what Jim_ME describes as his own: lots of choices of good sailing locations, a rural setting with room for storage and so on.

Well, then. After this weekend's crash course in bigger boats, and some of them very nice, my wife is lobbying for simplified systems: an outboard, and adequate but not fancy electronics, mainly. She doesn't want to get too chummy with a diesel in her cabin. It looks like trouble, she says. Expensive trouble.

We stumbled across a CD 26 and we both had the feeling it really filled the bill. One thing about the CD 25D is that there is nowhere to get away unless you want to sit on the pot. Everything happens in the main cabin. The 25D does have "Oh, poop" rails along the cabin roof but I guess if they're really important they could be retrofit into most boats. But the 26 has the same layout as the 27, i.e., a vee-birth forward, so there is someplace "else" to go, even if it's largely symbolic.

I call them "O, poop" rails because they remind me of once when the ore freighter I worked on as a kid was anchored just outside of Port Inland. We were waiting for the boat ahead of us to clear the dock so we could take on a load of limestone. There was a serious lapse of attention somewhere and our boat swung around parallel to the swells. All our ballast water had already been pumped out and we were floating like a cork. Man, did we ever roll! I was in the mess, eating. It was a beautiful evening. Nobody was expecting anything, and suddenly there was food and plates and pots and pans flying back and forth everywhere. The very round cook had wedged himself in the doorway between the mess and the galley and was shouting "God darn! Oh, poop!" as we rocked back and forth.

The captain came charging out of the dining room where he had been entertaining company executives and their wives who were vacationing on board. My memory has it that he was pretty well decorated with food. He smashed the button on the squawk box and let rip about "Get this god darn boat around!" That was the practical part of it. Then there was some truly impressive seasoned senior officer venting.

So, I'm kind of fond of a CD 26--and a nice Triad trailer. I'm kind of fond of my wife too.

Thanks all!
Porter

Porter,

The CD 26 is relatively rare--and because it's usually outboard powered (there were a few 26Ds), it could well be the boat you're looking for.

Once again, check the Cape Dory board for threads about trailering and raising the mast--there are plenty of CD owners who do this.

The 25D has an unusual interior design, replacing the V-berth with what my non-sailing wife calls "a big bathroom." She loved it, and that was one reason I bought the boat. But the more traditional interior of the 26 allows for greater privacy, although I'd advise against trying to get shuteye in the V-berth while under way.

Another problem (a big one) with the 25D: the head is forward, but the holding tank is aft, just forward of the engine. This means you've got a long piece of plumbing that passes through the storage locker under the port bunk/settee. There's plenty of opportunity for clogs and unpleasant odors.

Go with the 26--especially if you've got a big enough truck to haul it.

--Joe

 Best of luck with your boat search Porter. Now is a great time to be buying a boat. I bought my Allied Seawind and June, and there were a lot of great boats to choose from, and I still can't believe that I got my boat with the budget that I had.
I understand that you have a lot of criteria to consider other than just sailing characteristics in your new boat, but for checking and comparing the (theoretical) sailing characteristics between different boats and finding out all of the specs and dimensions, I found a great website. It is sailboat calculator/comparisons, and the address is http://www.image-ination.com/sailcalc.html
   Have luck and have fun.  Keith

Mates,
Yes, I've found the Sail Calulator site mentioned above. I've nearly worn it out, I think.

We're moving into a reality check mode here. We're going to look at a Sea Sprite 23 that's not exactly for sale, but it's the closest one. It's only 5 hours away. Then we're headed equally in the other direction to see a Kittiwake. Nothing like a real boat to bring some reality to the picture.

But wait! Wait! I have always loved trolley cars, the PCCs especially. And now I've stumbled across a boat that reminds me of them. It's a Cape Cod Marlin 23. I have a feeling the cruiser version would suit us just fine.

Take a look at this http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=327

How does it strike you? Got one you want to sell?

In the meantime, a sincere thanks for the suggestions, encouragement and tips.
Porter

There is an Edey & Duff Stonehorse for sale on Sailing Texas...
http://sailingtexas.com/201101/sstonehorse24100.html
Don't know about its trailer situation, but I have seen a couple listed with trailers. Another nice lil' boat!

Porter, This CD25 in Maryland looks like a potential good deal. Nice design adapted from the Allied Greenwich 24 by George Stadel.
http://baltimore.craigslist.org/boa/2824145130.html

The Alberg Seasprite 23 is a fine boat, but I would consider it more of a weekender. The CD25 (http://www.capedory.org/specs/cd25.htm) is only 600 lbs heavier with the same draft, so nearly as convenient to trailer, but has considerably more cabin space for cruising.

Here is an (expired) ad (http://www.sailingtexas.com/scapedory25103.html) for a similar boat setup on a tandem trailer, for reference. [Not by Triad, which has the screw poppets that you can lower away from the hull when working on/painting the bottom]

Again, best wishes for your search,
-Jim

Yes, the CD 25 is a good tip. I had forgotten about it when I locked on to the idea of a CD 25D. It fits the pared-down drift we're on. Thanks.

Is there anything to recommend Cape Dory 25 over an Allied Greenwich? I have the idea they're the same design. Is that true? How do the two builders compare?

We're off to sit in a Sea Sprite 23 for a while tomorrow!

Onward with an increasingly glazed look,
Porter

Wait! I get the picture: the interior of the Allied is just a big daysailer, but the CD 25 is set up with an eye toward longer cruises. OK. Allied out, CD 25 in.

Carry on.

Porter:

The Cape Dory 25 is a great sailing boat, and it is easily trailered. The only drawback I could think of would be the lack of standing headroom. And you're right about the interior design vis-a-vis the Greenwich 24. Externally they're the same boat, but the CD has a useable interior.

I chose my 25D because I wanted the diesel engine and standing headroom, however when I look at the 25, with its lower windage and better sailing characteristics, I'm sometimes jealous of the 25.

Quote from: Porter Wayfare on February 08, 2012, 12:07:13 PMWe're off to sit in a Sea Sprite 23 for a while tomorrow!

I personally have always found the Sea Sprite 23 to be one of the most visually appealing sailboats on the water. There's not much room below, and the boat is kind of tender. But it is a thing of true beauty--a sailboat that looks like a sailboat.

Don't get too glassy-eyed. Find a boat that you like before the coming season starts. All the boats you've mentioned here are good ones, and you'll be satisfied with any of them. (Until you catch the dreaded two-foot-itis.)

Fair winds,

--Joe

Quote from: Oldrig on February 08, 2012, 07:06:53 PM

(Until you catch the dreaded two-foot-itis.)

Sailfar is a good innoculation of that dreaded disease. (http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php/topic,3488.msg38250.html#msg38250)

  :)

Hi Porter, That CD25 seemed to me to be quite a bit of boat for the buck, which is usually my main consideration, assuming that it is in decent condition. This may free up some funds in your budget to get a good trailer.

One possibility that you might consider is getting a tandem trailer that is oversize such as one that is designed to carry the CD26 (or 25D, Ariel 26, etc.), then if you decided to move up to one of those in the future (or found a great deal on one), you could then sell only the CD25 and keep and reuse the trailer with the larger boat. It might be a minimal cost to get the oversize trailer initially and keep your options for the future open?

I agree with Joe that the Seasprite 23 has beautiful lines. When I first saw the SS23 cabin, I thought...Hey, its a Typhoon for 4 adults.  ;)

The CD25 does not have standing headroom throughout the cabin, but does have enough volume in the cabin and height above the settees to have comfortable sitting headroom, and the small galley areas are aft where you can stand under the companionway (open at least and possibly closed?). If only open than you may be able to add a dodger or awning over the boom to keep out weather at anchor. In contrast, the Seasprite sink and counter/icebox are forward, away from the companionway and with even less headroom. The settee berths are pushed aft so that they are partly quarter berths, so do not work as well as settees. If you are daysailing and just overnighting--sleeping in those berths--they should work all right, but if you are cruising and caught aboard on a rainy day with a book or laptop, the CD25 would be much more roomy and comfortable living space--and  more space to have a good-sized table (http://sailingtexas.com/201009/scapedory25107.html)

Joe is right...they are all good. I had a great time sailing my former Typhoon 19 for 12 years.

Mates,

In St Ignace, which is the town at the north end of the Mackinac Bridge in Michigan, we were shown a Sea Sprite 23 in really fine shape.

Better than the boat though was the guy who showed it to us! What a genuinely fine man!  Now this is one of the best parts of the whole boat thing. Other Wayfarer sailors we've met have been similarly warm. I count the guy I got my Wayfarer from as a pretty good friend now.

Your responses and coaching passed on to me here on SailFar are right there in that same vein. I appreciate it deeply.

But, alas, my wife and I eagerly climbed up on to the beautiful Sea Sprite 23 and down into the cabin where we immediately turned to look at each other. "Too small," the look said. But the boat was so beautiful! Oh, no!

On to Traverse City on the west side of the Lower Peninsula where a CD25 held the solid promise of solving our quest. To make a medium story short: I am 5'8" and I could not sit fully upright on the settees. All that boat and I had to slouch to sit!? No way.

So all the way home we talked again about how beautiful the CD27 in Chicago was, and about going to see a CD26, or a Kittiwake maybe. I kept remembering how nice the inside of the Alberg 22 felt. You know: on and on. My wife hasn't been in an Alberg or CD 22 yet. Maybe that's the next move. I wonder what an Ariel's like....

I'll let you know,
Porter

Does this never end? I just ran across a Paceship Eastwind 23. The cabin profile is, well, funky, but the hull and keel look great. Does anybody have an opinion about them?

Porter- just keep looking. You won't find the boat- the boat will find you. You'll climb into one or another and the boat will say "THIS IS IT!!!"  ;)

Quote from: Porter Wayfare on February 10, 2012, 09:39:59 AM
I wonder what an Ariel's like....

Standing headroom! I`m 5`8" also and I didn`t think it was all that important when I started my search. As I will be living aboard full time it makes life a little more comfortable. The Ariel is about the perfect blend of size and comfort for a solo/couple cruise. It would be a lot of boat to trailer around if you plan to launch it week to week.

Just keep searching gotta kiss a lot of frogs before the princess comes around and you mightfind it well outside your search area (like me).

Keep in mind the wrong boat in a good location is still the wrong boat, but the right boat will always make you happy no matter where you find it.

FWIW dont tell someone that their boat "doesn`t suit your eye". ;D

Quote from: CharlieJ on February 10, 2012, 10:18:52 AM
Porter- just keep looking. You won't find the boat- the boat will find you. You'll climb into one or another and the boat will say "THIS IS IT!!!"  ;)

Wow, Charlie, excellent point.  Grog for that.

It's so true. 

Quote from: Chattcatdaddy on February 10, 2012, 12:30:31 PM
FWIW dont tell someone that their boat "doesn`t suit your eye".

Noted. Sheepishly.

The CD25 that I chartered was a dinette version, which has the advantage of extending the seating area out from under the side decks [to the area] under the cabin trunk. I am 6 feet tall and found it to be comfortable. However most of the CD25s that I`ve seen do have the settee berths layout. I`m puzzled about why this is, as I personally favor the dinette layout. Perhaps, the dinette may seem to extend into the cabin space more and diminish the feeling of space. The double berth that the dinette converts into may be less versatile than the individual settee berths. The settees would be better sea berths on passages, but for typical coastal cruising, the dinette seems to me to have many advantages.

I recall reading somewhere that when Cape Dory got the molds from Allied, they added 3 inches to the hull freeboard height (which added 9 inches to the LOA), so they must have recognized that this was an issue and tired to mitigate it somewhat. The boat displacement also went from about 3300 pounds (same as the Sea Sprite 23) to 4000 pounds. The designs in this range that are considered more comfortable--CD25D, CD26, Ariel26, Meridian25/26, are all over 5,000 lbs, so the CD25 was probably more of a compromise from a smaller boat (the Greenwich 24) that may have been intended to be more of a Sea-Sprite-like weekender than a true small cruiser like its bigger sisters.

Often in my experience, my choice was cost driven, there seem to be some of the Allied Greenwich 24s and CD25s on the market for relatively low prices, such as this one for $2,000 whereas a CD25D would usually cost 5 to 10 times that. So even though it was indeed a compromise, there were also benefits. In my experience, it worked well to keep the total cost of the boat on the more affordable end of the cost spectrum, especially initially. After a few years, if everyone is positive on committing more of the household budget to sailing, then it is done with a commitment based on some real experience. I made the mistake of getting too large and expensive a boat initially, and that can impose a cost-benefit calculation aspect to the experience that can prevent the love of sailing from ever taking root. My advice is not only to keep it simple, but to err on the side of keeping it comfortably affordable, especially in the beginning.

Come on down to South Haven and take a look at my Tanzer 28.  It is a modern design but has plenty of room for a liveaboard.  The price is pretty good too.

http://cruisenews.net/tanzer/03VII2009/

Paraphrase from other replies:  
 "Sailfar is a good innoculation of that dreaded two-foot-itis disease."

 Sailfar might be a good inoculation, but I think that the only cure comes after one upgrades to the point of incompetence. That comes when you have your nice big boat loaded with gadgets and a nice day comes along and you can't find crew to help you sail her.
 I've seen that in Oriental a lot. I will be talking to folks, mentioning that the weather is nice and that I plan to sail across the Pamlico Sound out to Ocracoke, and a person with a boat in the 40 foot range will say that he would like to go if he can find crew.

 As for your boat search Porter, you mentioned Albin Vegas in your original post? They won't be the easiest boat to trailer and launch, but I don't think that they will be the hardest either - no harder than some of the other keelboats that you have mentioned.
 The Vega is 27' with an 8.0' beam. and the draft is 3'10". Also, the boat only weighs 5070 lbs. If you run the numbers on a Vega, it wouldn't seem that the Vega would be as good of a sea boat as she really is, but with 3000 boats built and many circumnavigations under their keels, real sea experience speaks for itself. (In the book 20 Small Sailboats to Take you Anywhere, the author ranks her sixth overall, right between the Westsail 32 and the Southern Cross 31).
 I lived on a cruised on a Vega for years, and she was a great boat. Mine had the diesel removed which added a great amount of storage, and she had 5'10"  headroom. (She also has the most clever table design that I have seen, one that can be mounted in the salon or cockpit).
 With so many Vegas built, they are usually not hard to find used ones for sail.
 Well, enjoy your searching, and hold out for the right boat, understanding that there is no such thing as the 'perfect' boat (except maybe my Allied Seawind  ;) )

Cruise,
When I look at the Vega I wonder about the cockpit coaming holding a lot of water. What's your take? Otherwise, yes it's very nice.

Hey Porter,
The coaming never worried me at all - in fact it is a great help in keeping water out of the cockpit. Here is what the above mentioned book says on the subject, "The cockpit is self-bailing and small enough not to cause concern about pooping, but big enough for two people not to get in each other's way on long trips".

QuotePorter- just keep looking. You won't find the boat- the boat will find you. You'll climb into one or another and the boat will say "THIS IS IT!!!"

Just remember that if you dont go alone a boat might find your significant other first! :)  That's what happened to me.  I decided that it was worthwhile for it to be my "wife's boat" though.  Now she has an investment in this whole sailing thing!  I just wish she had fallen in love with someting in better shape.

QuotePorter- just keep looking. You won't find the boat- the boat will find you. You'll climb into one or another and the boat will say "THIS IS IT!!!"

The man has a great point. I swear that when I first saw my current boat, the Allied Seawind, I had the feeling that the boat wanted me as much as I wanted her. Sounds kinda weird, but it does happen, and you will know it when it does. 

You guys make it sound almost cosmic. I once had a couple of horses I felt that way about. I had a tractor I really liked too, but it wasn't what I'd call cosmic.

I am becoming increasingly interested in a Rhodes Meridian, though. But I heard or read somewhere to stay away from late 60s and onward versions. I cannot remember why. Do any of you know what that may be about?

And how much trouble is the iron ballast?

I do know something about getting knocked over the head. At the risk of going way off topic, here is a poem I wrote about it.

Exceeding a Cosmological Absolute

Well before the golden fall light that fell
on your cheek when you stepped from the shadows
got itself turned around and started on its way
to my eyes where I would receive
my first and forever stunning glimpse of you
my heart was already at your feet.

OK.
Porter

Tehani is 52 years old and the cast iron keel is still intact.

I coated it with coal tar epoxy.

Greetings,
I could really use some perspective on a Paceship Eastwind 25. They look really good to me, but I'm having trouble finding out anything about them. Built in Montreal about 1962 through 1971 or so. Full keel. Compares really favorably to a CD 26 on Sail Calculator site. An bit odd cabin profile....

Here's hoping somebody knows something!
Porter

Here is a boat that you might want to look at...[in your area?]

It is an O`Day 25 on a tandem trailer...
http://swmi.craigslist.org/boa/2823602600.html

It is a design that I considered for a trailer-sailer, mostly for the room it provides in a 3962 lbs (see specs here (http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=646), similar weight to the Allied Greenwitch 24/Cape Dory 25), and has the advantage of the shoal keel/centerboard design (I believe that it is 2-ft-6-in draft with board up). With its 8 foot beam, it has a roomier cabin, that you may find acceptable. Granted, it is no Alberg, but it might be a reasonable compromise, leaning toward trailerability--especially for the price. Not Cape Dory build quality, but I had an ODay Rhodes Mariner 19, and I thought that it was good. [Others here may be able to offer an opinion based on their experience.]

I noticed that the ad states that Any serious offer will be considered.

There were ads for several here in Southern Maine recently, including a 1976 keel/cb model (without trailer) reported to be in very good condition for $1200.
[Update: I had saved the phone number of the seller and called this afternoon to see if it was still available. It is, even though the ad had expired. He has a galvanized tandem trailer setup for an ODay 25 that he had planned to keep, but might also sell for an additional $1500. If you should want his phone number just PM me and I can send it to you. May be too far away, but perhaps useful as a comp reference?]

I think that you can get a good used galvanized tandem to carry that weight for $1000 to $1500. You may be able to find other sister boats online for comparables to help in evaluating what a good reasonable offer might be.  

Here is another boat that might be worth considering if easier trailering was a priority...an ODay 23 (specs here (http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=348))
http://boston.craigslist.org/nos/boa/2869993034.html
Near Boston, MA, but on a trailer and towable.

Greetings all!

First to Jim_ME,
If I have to take care of it, and that looks to be the case, then I need a more traditional looking boat than the O'Days to induce me to do it, but thank you for the thought. Sincerely.

And to the rest of you: So, then does anyone have any experience with the S&S Capri 26' built by Chris Craft? Here is a link to the specs: http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=578

I may have a line on one. It looks like a Meridian knock-off, doesn't it?

The water is starting to melt around here in the Thumb of Michigan. I'd say that's about three weeks early.

Porter

Quote from: Porter Wayfare on March 06, 2012, 09:51:04 PM

And to the rest of you: So, then does anyone have any experience with the S&S Capri 26' built by Chris Craft? Here is a link to the specs: http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=578

I may have a line on one. It looks like a Meridian knock-off, doesn't it?

Keel shape is off to be a Meridian knock-off.

I knew a guy with a Chris Craft 26' and while I'm not sure, I do think it was a Capri.  If so, nice boat and seemed well built.  I'd think one could hardly go wrong with an S&S design at any rate.

Kinda resembles on top, but it's a much lighter boat and is a fin keel at 3920 disp. Meridian is 5300 dry and full keeled. Interior is way different also.

Not knocking the boat, understand- just pointing  out differences. Could be a really nice boat. Don't know anything about them though.

Yes, I see what you mean. I was looking mainly at the above water profile.

Here's a question. I'm also looking at a Pacific Seacraft Flicka, LWL about 18'. I imagine almost all my sailing will be on the Great Lakes. Am I right in understanding that the waves on the Great Lakes are generally shorter and choppier? And if so, am I setting myself up for a miserable ride with such a short boat as the Flicka? It looks like it would have a pretty good tendency to hobbyhorse, if that's what you call it. But it sure looks like a nice boat.

Porter

Quote from: Porter Wayfare on March 06, 2012, 11:16:07 PM
I'm also looking at a Pacific Seacraft Flicka, LWL about 18'.

Porter,
The Flicka is a wonderfully seaworthy little boat--I believe several have made it around the world and, if not, I know that more than one has crossed the Atlantic. It is also supposed to be very slow and, because of its short waterline, not terribly comfortable in severe conditions. Also, Pacific Seacraft boats, especially early ones, were superbly constructed.

I tried to find an affordable Flicka when I ended up with my Cape Dory 25D (also called the "East Coast Flicka"). I sail my boat on Buzzards Bay, which, like the Great Lakes, has short "square" waves. Maybe it's because I grew up sailing those waters, but I find my Cape Dory handles the chop beautifully.

BTW, my boat's waterline is 19'.

Once again, good luck in your search.

--Joe

http://www.seafaring.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=24070

not trailerable but these seem like great deals

Theres a 19' " Adrian" catboat for sale near the Vero beach city marina forsale with trailer.

Mario,
I'm not much for catboats, but thanks for the thought.
Porter

Greetings once again,
This time I need a recommendation for a marine surveyor near Oklahoma City.  Is that something people here are comfortable doing? You could message me if you'd rather not be too public about it. Discretion and confidentiality strictly assured.
Thanks y'all.
Porter

Porter, I just saw this Cl ad for a CD27 and a custom Triad trailer in VT...

http://boston.craigslist.org/nos/boa/2932275747.html

It is a not inexpensive, and it seems like you are leaning toward a smaller boat, but since it is a package that was discussed earlier, I will post it for your reference.

I am a bit skeptical that this boat is worth 9k more than the CD27 that you looked at, but it is possible. Also the ad gives at least one value ($5k) for a recent (2010) Triad custom trailer for the CD27. Since the trailer is priced separately, perhaps the owner would consider selling it separately. Although I have sometimes see owners in this situation sell the trailer separately only after someone boat the boat an opted out of the trailer.

After the doing previous post, I found this CL ad for a CD28 in for $15.9K

http://savannah.craigslist.org/boa/2894022101.html

Again, if you are headed smaller, this boat is probably not an option, but I will post anyway, just as a reference on the price of the CD27s--and since we had discussed the practicality of trailering the CD27, as an example of even larger Alberg boat (roughly comparable to the Alberg 30 by displacement at 9000 lbs) in a custom trailer (not included in the price/sale). 

Interesting you should post today. My wife and I just got back minutes ago from another 446 mile boat viewing adventure. This time it turned out pretty good!

I got her into the cabin of an Alberg 22. She gave it the OK for cruises up to 2 weeks. You see she's pretty opinionated and quite specific. But this is great news!

It has a new Cradleride trailer and the set up looked very doable. I can pick up the mast.  I have a Toyota Tacoma now, so it looks like I might need a bigger pickup. That's a bummer. It reminds me of another great thing about my Wayfarer which will practically float in a puddle: I can pull it around by hand.

I think the boat is in pretty nice shape except for the cockpit sole. It is soft. Something will need to be done about it eventually but for now the owner has made a synthetic wood material grate that seems to be a good interim solution.

The motor well opening has been fiberglassed over and a bracket hung on the reinforced transom. Good thing it got reinforced because the oldish Evinrude weighs about 80 pounds.  Sheesh.

But except for the motor hanging off the stern I love the way it looks and she does too. I'm thinking it might be survey time.  It is a Nye and has no numbers on it anywhere.

I'll let you know. In any case, I can really see us happy in an Alberg 22 sailing around in Lake Huron. What a piece of water!

Porter

Hi Porter, Good to hear that you may be getting closer to a consensus on a design.

I always enjoy looking at the larger designs, such as the ones that I posted up at the top of the range that you were considering (and that I also have in the past).

I am still in the process of looking into trading my Corinthian 19 for a CD Typhoon 19. I will be content with either boat--way better than the no sailing of last year. A 22-footer would be a luxury.

Good luck with this A22 (or your ongoing search).

-Jim

Great news, Porter.

You've got your wife's OK, and you're willing to start out cruising in an a smaller boat like an A22.

Can't go wrong with an Alberg-designed boat. :)

--Joe

Greetings

I am happy to announce that my Wayfarer got a new sister yesterday: an Alberg 22. The boat's in Nova Scotia. I had a surveyor check it out. He said, "I'm calling you to give you this report right away. There is good news and bad news. The good news is, the boat is absolutely superb. I've been looking at boats for 25 years and this is a very rare find. The bad news is, the next person who looks at this boat is probably going to buy it. You should act quickly if you want it." So I jumped on it! Ah, the folly....

It was owned by a man who is in his 90s now and although he has continued to upgrade her and launch her every year, he has just not been strong enough to sail her for the last number of years.

I'll post some pictures soon. I hope to go out to pick her up this coming week. First I have to trade up to a little bit bigger truck. I think I have a line on one that is just what I want. About 24 hours driving time one way! But the route goes through the most solidly French-speaking part of Canada. That's a part of the world my wife and I talk about moving to so it will be an exploratory trip.

I have a line on another Nye built A22 that I went to see in Owen Sound, Ontario. Except for a soft cockpit sole that has been taken care of for now with a synthetic wood grate, the boat is in very nice shape. I would say a 7 out of 10. The sails are not new and the motor is an older Evinrude, but the trailer is a recent single axle Cradleride with hydraulic brakes and a launching tongue. It's a nice boat. I would have bought it had this other one not come up.

Here's a link. http://ontario.kijiji.ca/c-cars-vehicles-boats-watercraft-sailboats-ALBERG-22-W0QQAdIdZ358904584

This is perfect. Excuse me, I have to get ready to do some driving....
Porter

Congratulations!  :) A seaworthy Alberg design in that size with a good trailer seems like an ideal trailer-sailer.

I have always enjoyed visiting Nova Scotia, where we have relatives. Hope to eventually do a trailer-sail up to Cape Breton Island and the Bras d`Or Lakes.

Have a good land-cruise up there to pick up the boat.

-Jim

Congrats!  This is exciting news.

We look forward to many stories and beautiful pictures from your cruises.

Have a grog to enjoy the blush of new-to-you boat ownership.

Congratulations, Porter!

You've made a great choice--and you'll enjoy visiting Nova Scotia to pick up your boat.

Best of luck with your Alberg!

--Joe

Oh my! Congratulations, you now have a boat you love... excellent news. Many happy sailing adventures to you and your wife!

Albergitis has got you now! ;D Congrats on your new baby!

Thank you all. Looking for a truck is a lot less fun than looking for a boat. Unless, maybe, I was looking for a 1946 Chevrolet pickup, birdcage grille. I wonder what its towing capacity is?

I would join the Alberg Owner's Thread if I owned an Alberg. I pretty well thought I would by now.

As you will remember there was an "Absolutely superb" (the surveyor's words) Alberg 22 for sale. I traded my trusty rusty Toyota Tacoma for a Chevy 1500 and headed out to Nova Scotia. The short story is that while the boat was quite nice, it was in less than absolutely superb condition. I would have said, "Nearly superb," or "You can see superb from where it is now."

The trailer was another thing entirely: it was an old home-made, poorly designed and as a result currently deformed affair that I doubt would carry the boat 20 miles let alone back to Michigan. There is certainly no way it would have made it through the construction zones and lane changes in Montreal.

Can you imagine dropping a boat off a trailer? I can. As much as I wanted to make it work, all the way home I was thanking my stars I didn't have that trailer behind me! The surveyor said, "I looked at the boat. I really didn't look at the trailer." But he knew I was coming from Michigan. Hello?

In a scramble to find a suitable trailer I got some help from a couple boat dealers. But it's too early in the season for anyone to have something in stock, they said. And if there were such a thing as a trailer without a boat on it already, they could sell ten of them a week.

It was an excruciating experience. The owner, a man of advanced years, shut down and fled. I was left to try to figure out what was really going on with a "broker" who was fleeing into another kind of refuge. Somewhere in all this it needs to be said that the full bloom of alcoholism denial can really make it hard to get things done.

I left Nova Scotia at 7:30PM Wednesday and made it home in one 27 hour shot. I wish I could tell you something about the joys of boat ownership. I think I'll give it another try soon.

Porter

WOW! That sucks on many levels. Sorry to hear that this turned out so bad when it looked like a sure deal. Just keep looking and you WILL find the right boat.

Porter, sorry to hear that the boat in Nova Scotia did not work out.

I have heard some cases where a boat trailer cannot be trusted, where some will rent a reliable flatbed trailer locally and drive it to the boat (easy to tow it there unloaded) and have the boat and trailer lifted onto the flatbed, well tied down/with cribbing under the trailer frame and possibly extra adjustable supports for the for the boat, and towed home. Then you can repair the trailer at your leisure.

When I got the Typhoon 19 and knew that I wanted to trailer it, I bought a new Triad trailer separately and went to the factory to pick it up, then went to pickup the boat.

A good trailer manufacturer like Triad has the dimensions on file for common boats, so they could make one for you (if they do not have one in stock, I think it was about a month for my Typhoon Trailer, since it had to be sent out to be galvanized after being fabricated) so that you could pick it up in advance and go get the boat with it (as I did).  

An alternative, If [one] knows what size/type range boat one is looking for, might be to find good used trailer locally and then have it fully checked and serviced/repaired/upgraded locally and then to take that trailer as a fully-known item to go get a boat.

Of course, for these scenarios to work well, you have to know in advance that a trailer is not adequate (or, as with my Typhoon, that there is no trailer) , so that you can make other arrangements (especially if the trailer is part of the package you are purchasing, it certainly does seem like the surveyor had a responsibility to check it out, just like any other piece of equipment that came with the boat, or to explicitly exclude it from inspection in advance and ideally recommend someone who was qualified to inspect a trailer. It seems like from what you wrote that it should have been obvious to seller and surveyor that the trailer was in questionable condition and red-flagged it, and perhaps taken additional photos of it and emailed them to you, so that you could arrange to have it inspected in advance, or considered other trailer options. [Especially given, as you say, that the surveyor knew that you would be towing it such a long distance. When your intent in buying a boat this size to start with, and with a trailer, is to have a trailer-sailer package, then one would hope that the surveyor would fully appreciate the importance of the trailer to that package.]

Given the situation, if you like the boat, it does not seem unreasonable to me to get several quotes on having the boat transported to Michigan by a professional transporter and to make a new offer that deducts that cost, and whatever part of the sale price that reflected the *value*of the (useless to you) trailer [which they might sell locally as a local/yard trailer], and perhaps some fair portion the cost of your trip, to compensate you for the wasted time and headache factor. [Or if you wanted to find your own reliable trailer and make another trip to pick up the boat yourself, to make similar discounts to the previous price, and reimburse you for the previous trip.]

Anyway, good luck in your continuing search. Good to hear that you will be giving it another try. Grog to you. 
   

Before I bought my Bristol 24, I built the trailer with some adjustment so I could buy a boat sold without a trailer. I have since hauled a Bristol 24, a Bristol 19, and a Privateer 26 on the same trailer. I have also modified a 2 axle trailer, originally  for a power boat, by taking off the bunks and replacing them with adjustable pads and a base for the keel. I also added a tongue extension to allow me to launch and retreive the boat.

Just a thought. You can generally by a boat without a trailer for much less than one with.

Chuck

I wrote below of how you might seek an adjustment to the price to reflect the actual value of the trailer, and while (this morning) I still think that this is reasonable, I should have added that while owners have their own interests to seek, the surveyor was hired by you to look after your interests, and identify major problems for you in advance, so that you could make workable arrangements with that knowledge.

It seems like the surveyor did not appreciate how critical the trailer condition was to your plan to pick up the boat and trailer it home, and to use in the future on long distance trailer-sails, and to understand how much you had a stake when driving from such a long distance. To understand that you were not a local person who would be okay with a yard trailer to tow a few miles from your house to a local ramp, or were coming to look at the boat locally where the trip was of little consequence.

It seems to me that in this situation a surveyor has a duty to look at your plans and purposes in a more holistic way, and perhaps it is he that should consider refunding part (or all) of his fee to reimburse you for what was (or should have been) a preventable unsuccessful trip.

I feel your pain, Porter. The girlfriend and I just spent two weeks of our time, traveling across the country and back to look at a whole slew of boats that were unsatisfactory in one way or another.

I'm starting to get impatient. Enough so that I may reverse my position and take on a project boat. God help me.

Porter,
Other posters have already commented on how depressing your ordeal must have been. You've got my best wishes for your search.
All you can do is keep looking.

Best,

--Joe

A few things. I don't have the feeling that I want to spend much time on that boat now, even if they gave it to me.

When I arrived to see the boat I was waiting for the "broker" to get back from an errand. I was parked in front of his house on a very narrow and bendy asphalt residential street. The few cars that came by were moving slowly and one of them would pull over to let the other one by. One car, however, came around the turn going remarkably fast and used the whole road. I thought to myself, "Man, I hope this is not the guy..." But it was. It was a very telling first impression.

Second, I love my Wayfarer and they guy I bought her from is just as good. So I know it can happen. It took a while that time too.

I don't know if a project boat solves much of the problem, unless of course, what you want to do is work on a project. The Wayfarer is wood, so that's a bit of an ongoing maintenance project right there. That's enough for me!

It's not so bad. Distance helps.

At one gas stop I put $152.00 in the tank! I almost fainted. I'd never put even $50 in the Toyota.

Then, going west on the 401 north of Toronto I was in 16 lanes of grid lock traffic! Four express lanes each way and four collector lanes each way, stuffed full of cars and we were all stopped! Solid cars and trucks as far as you could see in both directions. I thought, "And they want to build more cars?!"

Porter

Quote from: Porter Wayfare on April 14, 2012, 06:32:13 PM
Second, I love my Wayfarer and they guy I bought her from is just as good.

That is one of the nicest compliments a man can recieve.

I still have respect for my boats previous owner. That says a whole lot about a man.

Porter,

So sorry to hear about your experience with this boat purchase.  I could hear the excitement you had about buying her.

A project boat has some advantages, weighed against possibly putting off using the boat for a time.

For example, the spread the 'cost' of the boat out over time but without interest on a loan.  Also, you get to make her what YOU want her to be. There's also the satisfaction of bringing a boat back to her true glory as a boat; see the thread somewhere on here about "sad boats."

There are many boats for sale around here.  I know someone with a Columbia 8.3 (with some rudder post problems from Irene) selling very cheap.  There are quite a few others; I'll keep my eyes/ears out for you.

Porter, I just saw this ad for an A22 with trailer (home built, but hopefully useable)...

Alberg 22 Sailboat - $2900 (Skaneateles NY)
http://syracuse.craigslist.org/boa/2969494755.html

-Jim

Looks good in the ad. Might be worth a call....you never know.

That's an interesting looking A22. Notice the rectangular port lights. And the interior picture shows that there are no port and starboard "cabinets" aft of the bulkhead. I wonder who made it. If the year is right (1982) as far as I know it would have to be Nye. But the two things I mentioned above are different than any other Nye I've seen.

A call to the owner is next! Thanks for the tip, Jim. I'm a little gun shy about another  home-made trailer!

Porter

Porter, You're welcome.

Yes, I thought you might have some concerns about another home-made trailer...

Yet if the boat condition checks out as good, the price is enough lower to perhaps make investing in upgrading the existing trailer (or replacing it with a new one and possibly selling the existing one as a local/yard trailer) feasible.

You may be able to have the trailer thoroughly checked out and serviced/repaired/upgraded for the trip back (which is fortunately considerably closer than Nova Scotia.)

As I suggested earlier, one option is to rent a tandem flatbed trailer locally and go get the boat and trailer with that. If there is a nearby boatyard they should be able to lift both the boat and trailer onto your rented flatbed. I'd bring plenty of  blocks for cribbing and lots of good tie-down straps.

I guess another option, if you are up for it, would be to sail the boat back via the Erie Canal and lakes, and tow the trailer back unloaded, then repair/upgrade it at home, maybe use it as a local trailer meanwhile (and if needed, look for a better trailer at your leisure?) Maybe get some experienced sailor to assist and give you some sailing/cruising instruction along the way, if you could use it.

Anyway, best of luck.  :)
-Jim

Porter, Looking at that A22's trailer again, I see that it does not have a bow stop/winch stand, a good structure to have to 1) help hold the boat back if you have to stop quick on the road and 2) to make it easier to winch in and position the boat on the trailer when hauling out.

I was just looking at the Triad design for the (similar sized) Sea Sprite 23 and its rugged well-braced bow stop, and the way that the two forward stands are angled backward (perpendicular to the hull surface at that point) and braced to prevent the boat from moving ahead. Also there are six stands/poppets (not just four)

One question may be whether the trailer meets your requirements in other respects and would be practical to modify to incorporate the bow stop, and better stands--or to eventually find a different trailer and modify it to suit your needs. It may depend on whether once you get the boat home you only need a local trailer, or would be doing some long-distance trailer sailing.

Also posted a photo of a Typhoon 19 and trailer loaded onto a flatbed for transport (I assume because there was a problem or doubts about its trailer for highway use). I would have added a couple heavy tie-down straps to secure the boat directly to the flatbed trailer (not just the boat trailer as shown in the photos), and probably blocked up under the boat frame to lift it off its wheels/springs.

On my ill-fated trip to Nova Scotia, when I finally admitted to myself that the trailer was worthless, I drove around to the local boat dealers to see if anybody knew where I could get a trailer. One particularly helpful dealer, Larry Pringle of PrimiereSEA, in Chester, had a brand new dual axle Triad like the one in your picture. It had a very long launching tongue, a dual wheel launching dolly that supported  the road hitch, hydraulic brakes, --and of course, a boat on it. Some kind of deep fin keel. It was two weeks old. It was beautiful!

Right next to it was a Typhoon on a single axle trailer from Northeast Sailboat Rescue. The frame of that trailer was formed to hold the boat as low as possible, so that the bottom of the keel was only about 9" off the ground. It must have made for very easy launching! I could see over the deck standing on the ground next to it.

The first Typhoon I checked out at the beginning of this whole adventure had a Triad single axle trailer. I think it was that trailer as much as anything that convinced me hauling a nice boat around was not a problem.

An A22 is light enough to haul on a single axle trailer. How important would you rate a dual axle? Is it that big a deal?

Porter

My Ty has been pulled 1000s of miles on this single axle trailer, which doesn't look much different than the one in your photo Jim. It is also a breeze to launch with the extension that you can't see on the backside.

(http://www.pbase.com/morningdove/image/129570248/large.jpg)

Tim,
What about your Ariel? What's it like to trailer and launch?
Porter

The Ariel is on a trailer so I can move it to and from a destination by myself.

(http://www.pbase.com/morningdove/image/106689078/original.jpg)

At about 6000#s you don't trailer it lightly, and the trailer doesn't allow launching so it has to be slung.

(http://www.pbase.com/morningdove/image/106689074/original.jpg)

If you intend to use the trailor for more than the delivery trip (Weekends? / Vacations? / Winter ashore?) then why not source one locally to you, and then take the trailor with you (will be driving there anyway). That way you get something good (not simply have to accept whatever comes with the boat) and doing in advance means have time to source out / await a deal. May well have to customise whatever you find, as well as build in some adjustment.

But if only looking for a one way road trip for delivery, then I would go the flatbed truck approach - either with a rubbish trailor onboard or own frame made out of timber. Obviously an approach not without costs, but a boat with no trailer (or no long trip roadworthy trailor) probably easier (and cheaper?) to find.

Anyway, just a couple of thoughts.

That's how we got Tehani from Rochester NY, down to the  Texas coast- Pulled a lowboy flatbed up, loaded her on on a cradle, and hauled her back here.

Cost us about 1500 bucks for the trip.

Here's what she looked like then-

(http://sailfar.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10069/thumb_1018_whatamessaft.jpg)

and now-

(http://sailfar.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10069/thumb_galley-overall.jpg)

Charlie, Now I'm pretty sure that was a project!  ;D

Here's a free sistership--I want to call it a project boat too, but after seeing your work on Tehani again...just seems like the wrong word now...  ;)
http://maine.craigslist.org/boa/2964773520.html

Tim, Sweet...now that's a good set of trailer sailers you got there. :)

It was a total "gut the boat" and rebuild. Two experienced folks, full wood shop, and 18 months.

Necessity was also a total, to the bare hull inside, rebuild.

Plus built 12 boats for customers in the 10 years before going cruising. And refurbished four.

At my age, I don't want to do another- I'd rather go sailing ;D

What are you guys trying to do to me? I would love to have a Meridian.  I would also love to have a life.

Porter, I took Charlie's post to mean that it was possible to go get a boat with a flatbed and transport it (in his case in a cradle, but could also be on a trailer that you didn't feel confident about, l as in the case of the A22) a long distance, as part of the process of getting a boat (whether or not it involved a restoration).

When Charlie included the photos of the Tehani restoration here, I took the opportunity to post the link to the post of the local Meridian 25, in relation to Tehani, and to toss it out there, not necessarily as a realistic option for you. However you had mentioned the aspect of a project boat as being of doubtful benefit in your case--perhaps in response to another post that I cannot remember [and won't take the time to go refresh my memory on right now, but go ahead and express these thoughts for now]. When I read your post, my reaction was that there is a wide range of what "project" could mean--from one extreme (as now shown in this thread), Charlie & Laura's restoration of Tehani to some boats that need some cosmetic work but can be sailed as-is during the process. I think that for some--many perhaps--restoring a boat and sailing the boat are both an integral part of the boating experience--the boating life, if you will. I believe that John may have written about this. Does not necessarily have to be--to each his own...

I actually went to look at this Meridian a couple years ago when it was advertized cheap in a local boatyard. It needed a lot of work, and it was more than I wanted to take on at the time. I was concerned that if nobody wanted it, the yard might cut it up just to make room for a paying customer's boat--as has been the fate of many other boats. I was prepared to take the boat in that situation, move it out of the boatyard into my yard, and to then try to find someone interested and capable of restoring her. Someone like Charlie and Laura at the time in their lives when they got Tehani. Someone else did take the boat out of the boatyard and I was glad [and relieved] to see that it was wanted. Anyway, since I had made the decision not to take on the restoration of this boat myself (given my other pending projects), I certainly was not suggesting that you had any obligation to take it on.

Please forgive me: I didn't sufficiently infer that since subtle joking is not well conveyed by email it is probably not well conveyed in this forum either. What I meant was, I would love to have a Meridian and by showing me this ad you have really tempted me to go down the same path Charlie did who spent three man-years in a fully equipped woodworking shop fixing up an apparently junk boat into a gem one can only dream of having. What I mean is you tempted me to walk off that plank, so to speak. Three years from now my wife will say, "Are you kidding me? My life has moved on."

I did not really take umbrage at anything you or the other guys said. Actually I very much appreciate the responses I get on this thread and everything else I read on this site.

Thanks you all.

Jim,
So just how bad is it? The Meridian, I mean.

Porter, Oh, good. :)

I did in part post what was mainly a response to Charlie in your thread since you had expressed an interest in Meridian, thinking that it might be of general interest--as an example that there are bargains out there, even if this particular boat is not for you. More generally, it is always rewarding to share the finding of a true SailFar boat with all here.

This Meridian does seem to need far less work than Tehani did, so it would not necessarily mean taking on that extensive a project and commitment. As Charlie said, this is what he does for a living. Few would have the skills, tools, facilities, and ability to do what they did with Tehani.

One way to take on such a project and yet not hold one's sailing life hostage is, as many here including me have done, to have more than one boat and to sail one while working on another in tandem as a longer-term project. I sailed my Typhoon while working on a larger boat for the future, and am still trying to do some version of that now, for financial reasons. Again, this is not for everyone.

Let me post this now and continue in another to answer your question, and to discuss something else that I have been thinking about...

Jim_me-
let me correct one thing

DID for a living ;D Charlie is now retired.

Well, I will be, as soon as I finish the custom woodwork on the Tartan 37 down at the marina that people brought over for me to work on :D

Unless something else really interesting appears that will only take a week  or two. Don't want to cut too deeply into my kayaking, fishing and other sailing ;)

Oh, and as an aside- Tehani was three days away from the chainsaws when a friend saved her. She had been abandoned for 15 years. SHE was worth it.

Quote from: CharlieJ on April 22, 2012, 10:55:06 PM
Jim_me-
Oh, and as an aside- Tehani was three days away from the chainsaws when a friend saved her. She had been abandoned for 15 years. SHE was worth it.

I would say that you made her worth it.

It is a remarkable story. That a boat so close to destruction is rescued, trailered across the country, lovingly restored, and put back into service--and then goes on a second-life adventure that no doubt makes its previous one pale by comparison.

Grog to you.  :)

Also- I'm sorry if I clouded the issue. My whole point was to show that boats could be gotten home with no trailer. In fact, that's exactly how I got my current boat, Necessity, home way back when (1983)- a 16 foot hay trailer, borrowed, and some 2 x 12 planks crossed under as supports.

I know it's difficult, long distance, to evaluate a boat.. Many owners see their boat through "used to be" eyes, instead of "what is now" eyes. The boats turn out to be badly neglected, near derelicts, but "in perfect shape" because that's how it was when they quit sailing it, umpteen years ago. And unless you are prepared, and yes, equipped to do the restore, it can be extremely frustrating. Fortunately the folks I sold Necessity to 8 years ago maintained her, and even did some upgrades, so I don't have to do much.

But if I should get another boat after her, at my age I sure don't want to spend the months, and months on a restore. Or even spend the time building one. I built a 35 foot trimaran once, for me.  Seven years. Not now!

I'd rather pay a bit more, and sail the boat, not fix the boat. Already got the Tee shirts from that ;D

Quote from: Porter Wayfare on April 22, 2012, 10:04:48 PM
Jim,
So just how bad is it? The Meridian, I mean.

Careful!.......asking questions like that is how project boat purchases start  ;D

What I have been thinking now for a few days, after looking at the photos of the Alberg 22, and from spending some time in a Seasprite? Beautiful as it looks, it seems to essentially be the Seasprite 22 hull with a larger cabin trunk. I am concerned that the Alberg 22 will just be too small for you to enjoy doing much cruising aboard.

Looking at the Alberg interior, it seems more like a comfortable overnighter/weekender. I tried to imagine myself cruising in that boat (either alone or with another) and spending time in the cabin in the evenings or on a rainy or other down day. There just is not enough volume there. The sitting headroom above the settee berths seems considerably less than the Cape dory 25.

Both the A22 and CD25 have 3-foot draft so there is no penalty in going to the larger boat there. Since you have already upgraded to a full-sized pickup, it seems like you probably have about 5,000 pounds of towing capacity. Similarly, once your boat is over 3,000 pounds that generally means a tandem-axle trailer, and with two 3500-lb axles you can increase the boat size a fair amount at no additional cost. The CD25 has a basic galley and a (somewhat) separate/enclosed head space and hanging locker.

When I was sailing my Typhoon, (daysailing mostly) I had the advantage of knowing that I had another larger boat that would eventually solve any lack of room and cruising accommodations. I was just sleeping in the cabin overnight, as one might in a pup tent?not spending any awake time in the cabin.

The CD25 seems to me to be about the minimum size that one would need to enjoy some cruising. There are roomy unconventional boats that have a lot of room, such as the Westerly boats (W22 Nomad, Warwick 22, Pageant 23, etc. and similar designs, but you are looking at more traditional designs). The Meridian and Ariel are even better, but when you go up to a boat over 5,000 pounds (and the nearly 4-foot draft of the Ariel) you do lose some ease of trailerability, and I would think would need more than a basic half ton pickup to tow longer distances. It may still be worth it, as it is for Tim, yet he does also have the Typhoon for use when more convenience is the main consideration (and has the cockpit tent to create more room).

As far as the Meridian project... when I looked at it maybe 5 years ago, it had an area near the heel of the keel where the hull was crushed through where it sat on a block (possibly some ice freezing in the bilge there contributed). I see from the photos that a repair has been done to that area.

I could feel areas of the deck that were soft from deck core deterioration. That is a big project. Maybe the current owner has repaired some of that. I don't know. The current owner has done some work, but is not completing the restoration is probably an indication of how daunting it is... The long recession may also be a factor for projects like these.

As I recall the boats rig was just the wooden mast. I don't recall that it had any standing or running rigging or sails.

Anyway, although the boat is "free" and a great design, it needs major investment--a labor of love.

I would think that you would be far better off getting something like the CD25 for $3900
http://capecod.craigslist.org/boa/2939852751.html
maybe transporting it home in a cradle on a rented flatbed.

I just saw this CL ad that includes a CD25 in Detroit for $2800
http://detroit.craigslist.org/mcb/boa/2968783397.html

Quote from: Jim_ME on April 23, 2012, 09:14:36 AM

I am concerned that the Alberg 22 will just be too small for you to enjoy doing much cruising aboard.

BLASPHEMY!

;D ;D

We are a family of four and are currently planning trips on our 18 footer.  Big for an 18, but still...


(I jest, the real point follows):

Quote


Looking at the Alberg interior, it seems more like a comfortable overnighter/weekender.

Which is all we are planning on the little boat.

All the reason why it's important to define "use" before purchase.  We have had, and continue to have, a TON of fun with the little boat.  But it would be mighty difficult to spend more than a few days aboard.  That said, I know a guy that cruised the East Coast from Baltimore to Florida and the Bahamas on a 18 ft Drascombe Lugger.

Also, I second (or third) the notion of having a "sail it now" boat handy during the refit/restore if you get a project boat.  Our A-30 was sailable as purchased, but after four years of the pressure of either light cruising and/or living aboard, it became clear she needed some time off to address some things that needed attention.

Having the trailer boat available, along with the canoe (and the dinghy), is saving my sanity.

I think adaptability is key, also.  What I 'want' to do with my boat(s) I simply cannot do right now.  This has forced me to look at what the real underlying goal is.  In my case, it was explore new-to-us waters by boat, getting my family on the water to see and experience the world around us.

With this, how I get the boat to the "specific" cruising grounds has become less of a priority.  Thus, the trailer boat or the car-topper (canoe) makes a bunch of sense for us right now.

For some, chartering is a good fit, but that's just not for me (for personal reasons) in most cases.

Porter, I wish you luck in your continuing search.  The A22 falling through was a blow, but not an insurmountable one.

As I think Zen once posted...

"Fall down seven times, get up eight."  --Japanese Proverb

You'll find "your boat."

When we looked at the CD25 it didn't seem to offer enough additional cabin comfort to justify dealing with its increased size. Remember, we're moving up from a 16' open dinghy. We'd both rather be a little cramped and on the water than dealing with the logistics of a bigger boat and not on the water so much.

We need the flexibility to be able to just take off when the opportunity presents. There are about, oh, I don't know for sure, about two dozen places in the Great Lakes we would love to cruise. Two weeks would be a long cruise for us right now.

Even so, there are two nice Nordic Folkboats for sale near us, one wood and one fiberglass. I looked at the wood boat. It's a beauty. A real femme fatale, I bet.

John, If I ever start saying that I'm concerned that an Alberg 30 is just too small, then you will know that it is time for a SailFar intervention meeting.  ;D

Porter, I do want to share with what I based my opinion about the Alberg 22 on (and comparing it with the CD25, for example).  

Looking at the specs and drawings of the Alberg 22 and the Cape Dory 25...
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=318
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=366

When I look at the profiles and compare the A22 draft dimension (which is 3 feet from the specs) and scale the cabin height from that dimension, it doesn't appear to be much more than that [perhaps 4 feet]. Whereas the CD25 cabin height is about 5 feet. That is quite a  difference. Another nice feature about the CD25 is that with the galley located aft, a taller person can stand at the galley at the open sliding companionway hatch, whereas with the A22 the small galley is shown at the forward end of the main cabin, where there is no hatch. If you look at the A22 profile (side view) drawing and project the end of the cabin trunk down onto the plan view, there would not be much of the berth available for sitting. Many designers would show this as a dashed line (as the CD25 shows the hatch opening).

The most recent A22 did not have the galley counters shown in the drawings, perhaps so that the berths would work better as an over-nighter and would not need the small galley/counters/sink. In the photo of that boat it seemed like the sitting headroom over the berths was considerably less than the CD25 and from the drawing profile the height of the berth above the cabin sole appears to be low (about a foot, whereas I understand that 18 inches is the standard design height).

For cruising, having a cabin that has enough room to sit up in, (and have the feeling of ample space) and to be able sit at a table comfortably, is an important feature. As I wrote, there are days when the weather is bad, and evenings when one may want to read or use a laptop at the table.

An extra 800 pounds of displacement to gain these features may be well worth it, especially when the additional size and weight will add to seaworthiness and kindliness [and the cost of the boats are about the same]. It seems like for cruising the lower end of the optimal (SailFar) range is about 5,000 pounds--the displacement of the Meridian 25, Ariel 26, CD25D, CD26 (models that you were initially considering). So at 4,000 pounds, getting a bit closer to that size is a plus in many respects.

As I wrote earlier, since you have a full-sized pickup and would probably need a tandem-axle trailer even for the A22, I believe that the rest of your equipment/system can handle a 4,000 pound boat. For me, the step from that size up to an Ariel (sized boat) would be a more daunting leap--one that may be too large for a typical half-ton pickup truck, and with the extra foot of draft, larger rig, etc., would make trailer sailing more challenging (Although, still well worth that cost for some, including Tim for example).

I believe that there is a real risk in trying to cruise (even for more than a few days, to use John's timeframe) in a boat that is small and cramped with a cabin is not a reasonably comfortable space to live in, prepare meals in, etc. If that is the boat that one already has, or (as has been my case in the past) all that one can afford, then one can of course make the best of it. Still, I think of the beautiful table and cabin aboard Tehani and how much that must have contributed to the enjoyment of the cruise...  and that it is easier to make the best of it when you can have that kind of snug yet functional and comfortable setup.

Since I spotted the most recent A22 ad and posted it, and studied the photos (in which it looked much like the Sea Sprite) and after studying the drawings I began to better understand the actual size of the boat, and to doubt that it would be something that you would be truly happy with [if you would be doing any cruising]. If you had already bought an A22 it would be too late to revise my initial impression, but since you had not I felt that I owed it to you to give you my opinion. Of course, we all have to weigh what others recommend and use our own best judgment.

I continue to wish you the best in your search,
-Jim

I should probably share a bit more of my backgound on this...

After owning a few larger boats, I moved from Down East Maine back to Southern Maine, and with the cost of getting another house and carring the old one, the cost of operating a larger boat was going to be too much for the foreseeable future. My girlfriend and I had mostly done daysailing in recent years, so we felt that getting a smallish trailerable boat would work. We started looking at daysailers like the ODay Daysailer 16, Rhodes 19, sized boats. I has sailed on smaller boats, but she had only sailed with me on larger keel boats, and was accustomed to that level of stability and feelings of security. After much looking at boats, the conclusion was that a Typhoon 19 was about as small as she was going to feel comfortable on. I got the Triad trailer to keep the operating costs about as reasonable as the smaller boats, and to maintain self sufficiency, and perhaps do some trailer sailing.

We did have more fun on the Typhoon together than we ever sis on the larger boats, not because the typhoon was inherently better than the larger boats, but because her main interest was in daysailing, and my main interest was doing things that we could share. So now the boat was the right size and cost for the kind of sailing we would actually be doing. If we had been trying to do any cruising, I do believe that it would not have been much fujn in the Typhoon. I enjoyed it very much as a seaworthy daysailer and overnighter, but spending time in its small "cabin" was pretty much for sleeping overnight and sailing back home the next day. No even small galley, counter, built-in icebox, sink, or table. Just a V-berth and two smallish (children sized, really) quarterberths You picked the weather window to prevent getting stuck aboard in conditions where a real cabin might be needed. It was fine, and we had enjoyed the daysailing in Casco Bay for about 4 years before parting ways.

I moved back Down East and continued to sail the Tyhoon, sailing solo often. It continued to be an enjoyable boat. One evening I invited two acquaintences for a sunset sail. These women had been lifelong friends and shared many interests. It was an interesting exception. One could not wait to get back to shore, the other did not want to come back. The first never wanted to go sailing again, the other wanted to go sailing every chance she got, and her love of sailing just got stronger each time out. Rain, shine, near gale...could not matter less. YMMV. I guess so.

Anyway, I began to sail out to various islands and then around and beyond the islands. One afternoon beating back in from Petit Manan into a stiffening breeze and going forward to take down the genoa and put up the working jib, and looking around at nothing but whitecaps, and little else--no other boats in sight--I appreciated how along we really were. Maybe I should get and install a bow pulpit, I thought... I had been thinking about how I might add many of the features that the cabin lacked.

Still the cockpit volume was too big and there was no bridge deck.  I could cram the cabin full of creative creature comforts, but it would still be a tiny cabin. It occurred to me that for the cost of buying a bow pulpit and doing some other improvements I could just sell the Typhoon and get a larger boat. I had admired the Seasprite and since it seemed like a grownup Typhoon (with a bow pulpit, bridge deck, larger cabin, and so on) , it seemed like a natural choice. I bought it, oved it home in a cradle on a rented flatbed. Sold the Typhoon, but kept the trailer. Maybe I could use the trailer for the Sea Sprite, or eventually another Typhoon sized boat.

I admired the Sea Sprite's lovely lines, and would get up into the cockpit and it seemed ideal with its nice bridge deck and high companionway, and would then go into the cabin. Hmmm... After some period of time I realized that this was not going to do. The one of the most beautiful boats that I have ever seen embodies the worst of both worlds...too big (heavy, large rig) to be convenient and yet too small a cabin to be practical for cruising. Do I really want to invest in trying to add those features and try to make this into a real cabin, or would that still be too much cramming? Did I really want to modify the trailer for this boat?

I sold the boat without ever launching it.

I am sure that there are others out there who are completely happy with their Seasprite. When I see one on a mooring, I still think...what a beautiful boat...but now add... somebody else's boat. 

YMMV :)

Good morning,

Yes, I think I know what you mean. My wife and I looked first at a Typhoon. Sitting together in the cabin we knew it was just not big enough. We could sit there, but we couldn't really move.

We too thought the Seasprite would be the answer and drove about 500 miles to see one that was already sold just to check it out. We climbed down into the cabin and it was immediately apparent to us it wasn't going to work either.

So then after checking out a few larger boats, one of them a CD25, we finally happened on an Alberg 22. We were pleasantly satisfied with the cabin size and feel. It's not a solution for a month-long cruise, or maybe it is, but we feel it will do nicely for a couple of weeks.

That aside, the big news is: yesterday I found two Ariels in Detroit for sale. Hulls number 39 and 135. They are not complete basket cases yet, but they each have one foot in the basket. These were my first experiences with an Ariel so I don't have anything to compare them to, but the decks seemed soft to me. The interiors were pretty shot. Rigging and spars OK, I guess. #39  had an Atomic 4, #135 was outboard.

They're both at the most interesting "Detroit Boat Works Boatyard," proprietor Stephen Hume. See here: http://seaport.findthebest.com/l/5991/Detroit-Boat-Works-Wharf
And here: http://www.detroitblog.org/?p=867  And here: http://usedboatsofdetroit.com/

Like I said, this was a really interesting place.

Onward,
Porter

I think that there is a good case to be made for going up to an Ariel sized boat. You do sacrifice much ease of trailer ability, but it is the very qualities that detract from that which make the boat so much more seaworthy and kindly, as you may have discussed in a previous post.

You are increasing the size of the boat by 2,000 pounds over an A22 (or Sea Sprite 23) or about 60%, but you gain room that you can cruise on so much more comfortably, even if it is only two weeks or a month, but also for longer. I would suggest reading Craig's thread of his voyage with his wife and dog aboard Faith, if you haven't already (and Charlie and Laura?s aboard Tehani, and others)  

The Great Lakes can get very rough [A point that John has stressed earlier] and there is a huge difference between an A22 and an Ariel in rough conditions. Having a boat that can handle that is not only valuable when you may encounter those conditions, but know that she can is like insurance and allows you to make decisions to cruise in a way that takes more reasonable risks of encountering such weather.

Like Tim, with his Ariel and Typhoon, John with his A30 and Sanibel 18, myself with the Centaur and Corinthian 19, (and others on this site and beyond), it may work out better to have a 5k-lb (or somewhat close to it such as the CD25) cruising boat and a smaller boat that you can easily take on trailer-sails, even if it is a daysailer like a Rhodes 19 CB or Mariner 19, and you camp/tent out at a state park and daysail/overnight. I have enjoyed that a lot in the past and look forward to doing more of it. That two-boat approach gives you the best of both worlds, and you can easily get and maintain two modest boats for far less than many spend on a single biggish sailboat.

Even if you have the 5,000-lb boat lifted off/on by the yard (as Tim said that he does with his Ariel) I can understand that it is still well worth it. I do believe that with the right trailer, and long extension tongue, etc, you could get setup to float off and on if that was your goal. Bruce (SV Puff) and others do it with their Snapdragon 26s, which are even heavier. The Ariel's deeper draft would mean more extension and a ramp with enough depth, etc.        

I just saw this ad for an Ariel, described as restored and has a tandem trailer...

1966 Pearson Ariel Sailboat - $7000 (Lake Hefner, Oklahoma)

http://oklahomacity.craigslist.org/boa/2926120501.html

Quote from: Porter Wayfare on April 25, 2012, 09:02:11 AM
That aside, the big news is: yesterday I found two Ariels in Detroit for sale. Hulls number 39 and 135. They are not complete basket cases yet, but they each have one foot in the basket. These were my first experiences with an Ariel so I don't have anything to compare them to, but the decks seemed soft to me. The interiors were pretty shot. Rigging and spars OK, I guess. #39  had an Atomic 4, #135 was outboard.

They're both at the most interesting "Detroit Boat Works Boatyard," proprietor Stephen Hume. See here: http://seaport.findthebest.com/l/5991/Detroit-Boat-Works-Wharf
And here: http://www.detroitblog.org/?p=867  And here: http://usedboatsofdetroit.com/

Like I said, this was a really interesting place.

Onward,
Porter

All else being equal, I'd opt for the one with the outboard-

Cheaper to replace, more room below for stowage. And the new 4 stroke OB's are stone reliable. I have around 600 hours on my Yamaha, and it's never missed a beat, except once when water got in to the gas. Not the engine's fault.

Yes, I've talked to the owner of that boat. I PM'ed someone on this site about it. Part of the PM was

"I am currently looking into Ariel #304. Here is a link to some of its history: http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?1021-Pearson-Ariel-304&highlight=Legalair

I saw that you commented on that thread and I wonder if you know anything that might help me in deciding whether to drive from Michigan to Oklahoma to see it. I'd like to have a local surveyor look at it first, but I'm not having much luck finding one. A name in that regard would also help."

I'm not so sure anymore that I want to go so far for a boat. And I still wonder about the quality of the restoration. It might be fine, but I haven't been able to figure out how to determine that for lack of a surveyor.

On my way to look at another Ariel down in the City.
Porter

This may be off to the side or backward in this discussion about your boat, but I will post as a general point following up on my own experience.

I think that part of my experience with the Sea Sprite was that I fell in love with her beautiful lines in books and seeing the exterior long before I ever factored in the practical aspects of the interior space and possible layouts [and how I will actually feel in those spaces, which may not be apparent initially]. With smaller boats, it is possible to do a design that is very well proportioned to itself, and looks wonderful sitting on its own on stands or on the page of a design book. but without an image of something of known size--say a person--to convey a sense of scale, one's eye and heart will make too-optimistic assumptions about the size of boat and accommodation. Sometimes, as I mentioned, the brochure drawings of the boat conveniently omit other lines that would provide a sense of true size (such at the area of the cabin trunk and hatches above the plan, and their impact on the layout regarding sitting headroom areas, etc.). [sometimes things like the lifeline/stanchion/pulpit heights are made smaller to stay in proportion of the small boat cabin and since our mind does have an idea of how high those should be, this can misrepresent the size of the boat. With a person figure shown and the lifelines at kneecap level, it is more difficult to maintain that illusion...  ;) Often these features are somehow not shown on the drawings either...]

I suspect that boat marketing departments know that sailors are romantics and we fall in love with boats long before we get to the stage of cold rational evaluation (and then it may be too late, for a given purchase decision--it was for me and the Sea Sprite...)

To satisfy my own curiosity, I have drawn these in, along with a stick figure of a typical man (roughly scaled from the known draft dimension). It seems like quite a dramatic effect in helping one's mind understand the scale of the boat. Architects often include figures of people in their interior and exterior renderings, to provide a sense of a buildings scale ("human scale" sometimes). In a vacuum of information to use as a known reference, the mind may tend to naturally fill in with a wishful-thinking-filter fully engaged, showing us what we want to see, more than what actually is.

[Edit: I've sketched a similar scale stick figure on the Ariel & CD25 plans, too...and am posting for comparison.]

Quote from: CharlieJ on April 25, 2012, 02:08:24 PM

All else being equal, I'd opt for the one with the outboard-

Cheaper to replace, more room below for stowage. And the new 4 stroke OB's are stone reliable. I have around 600 hours on my Yamaha, and it's never missed a beat, except once when water got in to the gas. Not the engine's fault.

The problem with that is that the new 4 stroke engines do not fit in the old motor wells without modification to one or the other.

QuoteThe problem with that is that the new 4 stroke engines do not fit in the old motor wells without modification to one or the other.

That may sometimes or even often be the case, Tim, but wasn't for me.  A 4-stroke 6-hp Yamaha fits without modification and plenty of room to spare in the well in my Meridian.  I know Tehani had the larger 2 cylinder 8HP Yamaha which may (or may not) have required modification.  I can't speak to Ariels or other vessels.  Certainly something to consider, though.

Yep, I know. Had to modify on Tehani. Well worth it though.

Can actually TALK in the cockpit when running, 3 times better fuel economy. Yes,  three times better.

Had to remove a cowling from the leg- it was just for show anyway. Then had to enlarge to opening in the bottom of the well a bit. Took maybe 45 minutes all told. WELL worth it.  And I LOVE the Yamaha- has the shifter out on the motor handle, so it's right there.

Jeremy- our 8 is exactly the same engine as the 6, with a different carb.. Same dimensions, and weight. 6 hp might be different now, but wasn't in 06.

QuoteJeremy- our 8 is exactly the same engine as the 6, with a different carb.. Same dimensions, and weight. 6 hp might be different now, but wasn't in 06.

Yup, they changed it.  The Yamaha 6 is now a one-cylinder and lacks the shift on the handle, which would have been very useful.  On the plus side, it's lighter, not picky about lying on three of its sides, and required no modifications. 

Quote from: Jeremy on April 25, 2012, 04:13:31 PM

QuoteThe problem with that is that the new 4 stroke engines do not fit in the old motor wells without modification to one or the other.

That may sometimes or even often be the case, Tim, but wasn't for me.  A 4-stroke 6-hp Yamaha fits without modification and plenty of room to spare in the well in my Meridian.  I know Tehani had the larger 2 cylinder 8HP Yamaha which may (or may not) have required modification.  I can't speak to Ariels or other vessels.  Certainly something to consider, though.

That's great to hear Jeremy, I had known that Charlie had to modify for his engine. In reworking my lazzarette and motor well I gained an inch or two in depth so I am hoping if I ever put a newer motor in it might fit. Currently I have a 2 stroke 7.5 Evinrude that should fit in there without a problem.

Quote from: Porter Wayfare on April 25, 2012, 02:10:29 PM
I'm not so sure anymore that I want to go so far for a boat. And I still wonder about the quality of the restoration. It might be fine, but I haven't been able to figure out how to determine that for lack of a surveyor.

I can sure understand being reluctant to travel that far, after your experience in Nova Scotia.

I saw that this Ariel was described as in "awesome condition" and that it had a trailer (the partial view of it in the photo did not look that bad, although hardly conclusive), so I posted the ad for you.

Now considering that it has the old Atomic 4 inboard (as CJ says, probably not that desirable), the central heat & air (something you may neither need nor want) apparently occupying the icebox space. The cushions look overinflated and the mast support partners/beam, while possibly adequate, is not the most elegant joinerwork I've ever seen. It is natural to judge the other restoration quality that you cannot see from these items that you can, and they would cause me some doubt. Also suspect that If the restoration is not that great, than neither is the price.  

After posting below those who have a cruiser and a smaller trailer-sailer, I've been thinking that I am half expecting that any day now Charlie will come get that free Meridian up here... since compared to how Tehani was found, the restoration is almost all done...

Tehani II...has a nice ring to it...  ;)

Porter, For a boat in the Ariel size range this might be worth considering...[may have been a boat we saw an ad for earlier...?]

Maybe more than you planned to spend, but I've heard many good things about these CD25Ds. It's a relatively newer boat with small diesel, and the price seems considerably lower than you usually see for one of these...

SAILBOAT CAPE DORY 25D - $11500 (Chatham, MA)
http://boston.craigslist.org/sob/boa/2977104980.html

Charlie already GOT a boat :D

No more rebuilds for me. Although there ARE a few modifications I have in mind for Necessity ;).

Well guys,
The boat I saw today was in a bit worse shape than the two I saw yesterday, even though it was on the hard and not allowed to freeze into the Detroit River each year. I have very little experience identifying Ariels but I'm pretty sure this was one even though the builder's plaque didn't say "Ariel" like the two yesterday. It's not too clear, but it's #297.

There were a couple of holes in the deck where stanchions had pulled out. These three boats need help soon. I'm not sure I'm the guy to tackle any of them although they are beautiful and I can stand comfortably in them.

Onward,
Porter

Quote from: CharlieJ on April 25, 2012, 07:16:17 PM
Charlie already GOT a boat :D

And she's a beauty. Nice photo.  :)

Quote from: Porter Wayfare on April 25, 2012, 09:03:44 PM
There were a couple of holes in the deck where stanchions had pulled out. These three boats need help soon. I'm not sure I'm the guy to tackle any of them although they are beautiful and I can stand comfortably in them.

The first reaction is... If it's mostly cosmetics, and you can do the work as you sail her, or spend more time on that before launching and maybe some after hauling out, that is one thing.

However, if the boat needs major work, that is a big commitment and one to consider carefully. Many attempt them, some finish and some do not. Some spend months or years and then, like the Meridian I recently posted here, the project is abandoned.

My own feeling is that when it is one's only boat, and you are putting off sailing while you work on it, and that stretches out, it can begin to feel like your sailing life is being held hostage to the project. At some point sailing deferred can become sailing denied...

I believe that you have to enjoy the process of working on (and the satisfaction of saving) the boat apart from the reward of sailing it when the restoration is done.

There was some great information or quotes about this--the Zen of working on boats--in a previous thread on this site, which you can search on to find.

I personally like the idea of having a smaller boat that one can sail, so that some sailing can be done while doing the other restoration work--maintaining a balance of recreation and work, near and long term. [John wrote about how he is doing this recently.] Your current daysailer may be enough, or you might want to pick up something like an inexpensive Typhoon size/type to daysail/overnight? In my own case, I imagine using such a boat as a trailer sailer while keeping a larger cruising boat on the mooring (or some years keeping on the hard for work/refit), and perhaps trailer sailing the small boat South in the winter to do some daysailing/overnighting and camping out in a coastal park/campground.

One of the biggest concerns that I would have in the older and neglected boats, is to check out the deck very thoroughly for delamination and rotted core. If there are holes from stanchions that got ripped off, that is a place for water to get into the core (as are cracks in the deck gelcoat, poorly bedded hardware, etc.) These problems may not necessarily make the project not worth doing, but determining the extent to which a problem like this can help make any commitment more informed and reasonable (you will better know what you are getting into). I think that there has to be a kind of emotional, psychological, and even physical "pacing"-- like marathon runner--so that you do not try something in a way that is not sustainable and burn out. It may also help you determine how much to pay for such a boat--if anything (for some, like the Meridian, the fair price may be free, or close to it.)

There is a book, Inspecting the Aging Sailboat, that might help you with doing your own survey.

It is interesting that you found three Ariels in your area, but as I think about it, if they were made in Rhode Island--not that far, and are one of the more seaworthy smallish boats, it may be natural that they would be favored for the Great Lakes.

Porter,

I don't recall seeing ComPac boats on your short list.

I like the ComPac designs a lot.  This past weekend, I had the opportunity to haul a ComPac 25 for a new acquaintance (interesting story).  He had the trailer, I had the truck.

I noticed how easy it was to get this boat on the trailer and out of the water.  The boat draws 3 ft.  The trailer he has had a long tongue and dual axles.  Luckily, the wind tide was "in" and we had plenty of water...first time I had all four tires of my Durango touching water.

My point is that if occasional launch from a trailer is your goal, this boat is perhaps one to consider.  This comment does not include rigging/de-rigging, just getting the boat on and off the trailer.  It was probably no harder than a Typhoon.

Static design numbers for the CP 25 don't look as tight as for some of the other boats you are considering, and it's not a full keeler, either.  But like the ComPacs in general are shippy little boats and seem to hold their own.

Link:

http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=3021

(Hmmm, this says 4800 lbs, which is heavier than the dude told me....he said a ton and half...oh well.  I also notice that the picture in that link and the drawing have different cabin looks).

Com Pac. Hmm. Lots of freeboard there. But I'll look into it. I am constantly amazed by how my opinion of a suitable boat is changing.

For instance, today I looked at a Yankee Dolphin 24 in Detroit. Nice trailer. Nice boat. Nice owner. Very nice owner. The interior was a little plasticy for my taste but could be changed with a coat of paint. The owner had rigged cables from the tiller shaft to the outboard in the well so that the tiller turned the outboard. Very sweet. He is a millwright and knows how to build things.

It is a pretty boat. Maybe not as refined a pretty as a small Alberg, but it had an much greater space below. It is tempting.

I keep thinking that if I have to take care of it, it has to be beautiful. I've learned that much about myself.
Porter

Quote from: Porter Wayfare on April 29, 2012, 10:36:30 PM

For instance, today I looked at a Yankee Dolphin 24 in Detroit. Nice trailer. Nice boat.

Mmmm, yes, they ARE nice boats.

One thing that your potnetial boats seem to have in common is a fair bit of keel - given that trailoring is a bit more important to you than for others, have you considered something with a drop down keel? Appreciate that compromises to be made, albeit not neccessarily on performance / seaworthiness - upside is that trailoring becomes more practical.

Although, given you are US based the chances of finding a Fairey Atalanta will be next to zero  ??? - it is so far off the Reservation I could not resist posting it!

Dates from the 1950's using loads of blue sky thinking and is made of wood! (albeit hot moulded veneers, baked under pressure in an autoclave). These have not only been trailored accross Europe (and used as a caravan enroute) but also crossed the Atlantic. Price wise over here seem to range from around GBP5k (needs some work) to GBP10k (a nice one). 26' long, draft 1' 8" (boards up) to 5' 9" (boards down). and with an aft cabin! (if memory serves, had a dink that fitted over the top of the aft cabin - but those rarer than hens teeth!).


(http://www.sailingtoday.co.uk/images/stories/Craft_Reviews/fairey/1187_2.jpg)

http://www.sailingtoday.co.uk/fairey/fairey-atalanta (http://www.sailingtoday.co.uk/fairey/fairey-atalanta)

I'm not quite sure if I should thank you, but I would certainly be game for an Atalanta. It combines my love of Uffa Fox, the DeHavilland Mosquito and the PCC Streetcar perfectly: not an easy task. The article you linked to was interesting. So now, where is one for sale?

there's a quickstep 24 appeared on sailboatlistings. very nice but virtually no accompanying info:
http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/28764

Quote from: Porter Wayfare on April 30, 2012, 09:37:58 AM
So now, where is one for sale?

Owners Group always seem to have a few for sale (not sure how current the listings are):-

http://atalantaowners.ning.com/page/boats-for-sale (http://atalantaowners.ning.com/page/boats-for-sale)

None in the States, but a couple up in Cananda. However seems to be (or was) a Fulmar (20 foot version) in Michigan - at $2k (no trailor mentioned! - photo below just plucked from the 'net!).

(https://encrypted-tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSCjmUAWOEVHVLQqrDDw3AueTrF9WaMT-xPWGXkVPIMvbEHp4pL)

Wow, that Atalanta's an interesting boat.  Thanks for the link.

I've found an ad for a Seafarer Meridian that is being called a 26 "stretched" version. Does anybody know anything about what that means?

The 26 was built in the states, not in Holland. After SeaFarer moved production to the US, they offered the "Stretch" version, which used a modified mold. Production was in Holland til 64 (I think) then came to US.

All Meridians through 1963 at least, were Dutch built, and top quality.

Charlie,
Are you saying that the Seafarer Meridians were not so top quality? The one I found is a 1970.

No, not at all. I AM saying the Dutch built boats are superb quality. Remember- 1961, 62, 63 and years close to that, builders were really learning to use fiberglass, and had old timers working form wooden boat days. They didn't know the materials, so many boats from that period are rather over built. And the Dutch yards back then had an outstanding reputation.

So, Charlie,
Compare briefly in terms of handling, if you can, the Meridian and the Ariel. I've pored over the drawings and I have an idea of them that way, but no sense of them otherwise.
Porter

Should be pretty close.

Ariel is a foot more beam, and a little longer. Tehani lays over to 20 degrees almost immediately, then locks in. That wineglass shape and narrow (7  foot) beam.

I can steer Tehani, rail down, with finger tips. I'd say the Ariel is about the same.Bit more interior room in the Ariel,, due to the foot more beam. But also a tad more draft. I've loved the Ariel for years as a great little boat, as is the Meridian. I'd have no trouble choosing either

Edited to add-

I've sailed Tehani some 10,000 miles cruising now, both inshore and  multi-day offshore, and she's done everything that's ever been asked of her. Tough little boat.

Thanks and a grog. I'm experiencing a bit of boat search fatigue. It's nice to know the decision between the Ariel and the Meridian is not fraught with troublesome complications.

Did you say "boat search fatigue"?  :o Here's a grog to that!

Quote from: CharlieJ on May 02, 2012, 09:14:23 PM
Should be pretty close.

Ariel is a foot more beam, and a little longer. Tehani lays over to 20 degrees almost immediately, then locks in. That wineglass shape and narrow (7  foot) beam.

I can steer Tehani, rail down, with finger tips. I'd say the Ariel is about the same.Bit more interior room in the Ariel,, due to the foot more beam. But also a tad more draft. I've loved the Ariel for years as a great little boat, as is the Meridian. I'd have no trouble choosing either

Edited to add-

I've sailed Tehani some 10,000 miles cruising now, both inshore and  multi-day offshore, and she's done everything that's ever been asked of her. Tough little boat.

I hear Ariels have more places to hide grog  ;) although a certain someone keeps stating you are able to find them Charlie  ;D

 ;D ;D ;D ;D

The true truth is not in the man

;D ;D ;D ;D

But he's a heckuva good friend

I got back late last night from looking at a Kittiwake in Ohio. In keeping with CharlieJ's previous post: There are two great rules in life. Never tell everything all at once. Meanwhile, here is a pretty boat.

That truly is a good looking boat!!  Love the more traditional doghouse cabin. Great lines !!

Kittiwakes were supposed to be a stretched version of an Alberg 22 (Kenner Boat was doing A22s under contract, then some nefarious dealings happened in which they got cut out of the business, so they added a foot to the boat, faired it out, creating the Kittiwake 23). There is a pretty good sized owner's group, quite a few hulls out there... since Kenner was based in my home state of Arkansas, I've always been interested in the tidbits.
Is that boatyard located in Cinncinnati? Looks familiar.

I think the Kenner boats are well made. I am working on a Kenner privateer 26 now, and the hull and deck are put together very well. The is a Kittewake 23 at our marina. It's a pretty boat and a good sailer. I don't think it has near the room in the cabin as my Bristol 24, but it seems to keep up with me sailing wise. The Motor well is offset like my Corinthian 19, but is rather small. The Kittewake is trailerable, and probably easier to launch from the trailer than my Bristol 24.

Yes, the boat is at a place called Strictly Sail in Cincinnati. Nice place, nice owner. http://strictlysailinc.com/

The boat is #526 built in 1977. It is, to my increasingly trained but by no means expert eye, in good shape. Solid deck. Clean. Just a few small leaks below--and it rained like crazy the night before I got there. Good paint. A main and a jib in pretty nice shape. Heavy cloth compared to my Wayfarer! No obvious hull repairs.

Really, my only question about the boat is what happened to the mast? It's straight and not dinged anywhere but about an inch or two of the bottom of the extrusion (not the hinged step plate) is broken off in a jagged manner--like it shattered. There is a piece of stainless steel wrapped around and through-bolted to the mast and the stepping plate, if that's what you call it. How on earth do you knock off the bottom of the mast extrusion?

There is no damage or repair to the cabin top in the area of the mast step that I can see inside or out. The inside looks to be uniformly the same texture throughout. It has been recently (a few years ago) painted white inside. It hasn't been sailed much according to Strictly Sail Bob since it was redone by someone in Indiana or Illinois, I can't remember.

The person who re-did it seems to have only rebuilt the interior. I noticed that the mast beam (a couple of sawn oak 1x about 3 members) didn't look professionally cut. The arcs of the two pieces were a little wavy and didn't match like they would if it had been cut all at once on a bandsaw. It looked like someone used a handheld reciprocating saw. It wasn't all that bad, but it caught my eye.

Looking closer I noticed that this mast beam did not quite touch the underside of the cabin roof. It's about a heavy eighth inch away. It touches at the outboard ends, and then is pretty uniformly shy of the roof along the center of the arc. The mast step did not dip when I bounced my weight on it. Also I noticed that the wires for the masthead light (but not the coax) were routed over the beam and not through any kind of notch. They didn't have any pinch marks. All that struck me as not really a big deal--but it was kind of odd. It raised a question, but I'm not sure it means anything beyond the carpenter's skill.

That and the mast thing-conspiracy or coincidence: you decide. Let me know.

The trailer was a nice fit on the boat. Six poppets. It was a converted two axle car hauler, probably a little heavier than it needed to be. But it was a good job.

Bob pointed out a good burger joint to me. I drove home through some really heavy rain.

Porter

Was you happy with the head room and could you live with the head arrangment. Two important considerations especialy if you have company along.  One thing to check pout with the mast is to try stepping it then unstep it  if all seems right.  As an aside I share coffe with a fellow sailer who once worked at the kenner facility and am aquanted with a nephew.  People are proud of the kenner boats around here but strange to say there are none here in the area they were built in.

If anything the A22 may have a bit more cabin space, particularly in v-birth headroom. The A22 seemed to have more useable storage compartments. But it seemed easier to crawl back head first into the quarter birth spaces under the cockpit seats on the Kittiwake.

On the mast thing - my first step would be to ask the Vendor.

Sounds like the mast fell over, the deck not being damaged would explain why the mast foot is! Could even be that the mast is not original and fell off someone else's boat and was bought as a (cheap) replacement for the original mast.....that either fell over the side and went gurgle or broke halfway up.......or even got wrecked when in storage.

FWIW, a damaged foot is not automatically a fail, depends on how it is fixed - looking a bit untidy is a reason for a good hard look / think but I would not rule her out simply on that. In any event masts can be "sleaved" (an extention added) - mine has had one (from new) 10 foot up for over 40 years, as have all her sisterships (over a hundred), but back then sleaving not so unusual.

When I pointed the ragged end of the extrusion out to the vendor he looked at it like it was the first time he had seen it. It was covered over and hidden by the stainless patch. The patch was done in such a way that it did not call attention to itself. I only looked closer because I noticed that it was asymmetrical and I thought that was odd. He said he hadn't known it or how it happened.

Now, I'm a house builder and when I walk into a house I notice things immediately that I know other people don't. So, I'm a little inclined to doubt he never noticed it before, but I don't know. He seemed like a pretty decent guy.

What do you think about the gap between the ceiling of the cabin and the mast beam then?

Quote from: Porter Wayfare on May 09, 2012, 07:53:38 PM
What do you think about the gap between the ceiling of the cabin and the mast beam then?

Sounds like the mast / cabin roof won't be dropping more than 1/8th of an inch!

Also sounds like someone did a job to the best of their ability (and the results not quite as hoped for) - and stopped before finishing it off (I am guessing done before the time of the current Vendor). Could well be ok as the beam being solidly connected to the sides effectively puts the cabin roof in tension (if that is the right word?) - obviously an internet diagnosis is not something to put money on!, but my gut says poke some Epoxy filler in, sand it down, a coat of paint - and keep an eye out for any movement or stress fractures on deck / down below.

But same as for the mast, I would be more comfortable in getting a second pair of eyes on it.

For the mast even if good to go I would also be wanting to tidy it up, even if only so when I sell another prospective buyer does not raise the same concerns as you! Might also be worthwhile getting an idea of cost and availability of a s/h mast locally (doesn't need to be exactly the same size).......even if only only on a "just in case" basis.

But the good news is that both things could be used to really nail the Vendor down on price!

Quote from: David_Old_Jersey on May 10, 2012, 07:44:47 AM

Quote from: Porter Wayfare on May 09, 2012, 07:53:38 PM
What do you think about the gap between the ceiling of the cabin and the mast beam then?

Sounds like the mast / cabin roof won't be dropping more than 1/8th of an inch!

Which may or may not be a enough to cause problems.

While Yves Gelinas was in the Indian Ocean, he got knocked down and his mast compressed the cabin top a mere centimeter or so (admittedly larger than 1/8 inch), and it was enough to prevent him from closing the sliding hatch.

Open hatch in rough Indian Ocean seas? 

Quote

Could well be ok as the beam being solidly connected to the sides effectively puts the cabin roof in tension (if that is the right word?) - obviously an internet diagnosis is not something to put money on!,

This was my initial thought, too, that at least there's the start of a proper repair there.

Quote

but my gut says poke some Epoxy filler in, sand it down, a coat of paint - and keep an eye out for any movement or stress fractures on deck / down below.

The wood mast support is a problem on the earlier Alberg 30's (Ariel's bigger sister's bigger sister), as delamination is common.  The newer A-30's don't have this problem since it was replaced by an Aluminum support bonded to the cabin top..

The fix Yves did when he made it to port was to attach aluminum sister plates on either side of the wood beam.  This is also the recommended fix for pre-liner Alberg 30's, and there is even a company that has the template for the plates on file to mill them.

So, I guess I'm saying that I would take David's fix one step further.  He's right...first step is to get the wood that's there bonded to the cabin top, but I'd then strengthen the whole thing with the aluminum plates.

A few bucks for some aluminum plating is relatively cheap in terms of the gains made in strength and durability...and peace of mind.

Importantly, get CapnK to chime in here on (a) the stages he went through to design Katie Marie's mast support and (b) to post something on the final design.  That should give something more specific to the Ariel.

Finally, almost all of the older boats with wooden mast supports have at least the potential for problems in this area.  It's a combination of age and being a major stress point.  I would not view such a problem as a deal breaker on a 60's era boat.  If you do, you might as well not look at 60's era boats (many have already been fixed and many are not showing problems YET, but, it's a common theme).

Quote from: Captain Smollett on May 10, 2012, 09:47:08 AM
So, I guess I'm saying that I would take David's fix one step further.  

I think that I would take both David and John's fix yet one step further and...

Get a bigger Alberg boat (http://southcoast.craigslist.org/boa/2972531218.html) ... ;D

Okay, okay...  ;)

Quote from: Jim_ME on May 10, 2012, 02:42:00 PM

Get a bigger Alberg boat (http://southcoast.craigslist.org/boa/2972531218.html) ... ;D

Nice looking boat.

1967 Alberg design.  Beautiful.

However, to paraphrase the earlier comment:

Quote

almost all of the older boats with wooden mast supports have at least the potential for problems {with the mast step}.

Statements do apply to the B-27 as well:

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f55/adding-support-post-under-mast-38687.html

;) ;)

Quote from: Captain Smollett on May 10, 2012, 05:20:35 PM
Nice looking boat. 1967 Alberg design.  Beautiful.
However, to paraphrase the earlier comment:

Quote
almost all of the older boats with wooden mast supports have at least the potential for problems {with the mast step}.

Statements do apply to the B-27 as well:
;) ;)

Yes, I thought that this B27 looked beautiful, too.

The impression from the photos is that she has been well cared for--so perhaps, the mast support has already been upgraded?

Joe, I wondered if you knew anything about this boat, since it is in your area?

subtitled: Three Alberg 22s, 2 Moose

I'm kind of fond of Alberg 22s. So, Thursday a week ago I traveled back and forth across Michigan and a little into Canada to see a couple of them.

One of them had the mast up: the first one I've looked at with the mast up. Well, I was a builder/carpenter for a living and it was great to see that rig. I can stand that mast up by myself. I've dealt with a lot of stuff much more difficult than that.

I also got a copy of The Sailor's Sketchbook by Bruce Bingham. It has a drawing of how to stabilize the mast laterally on the way up with a raised pivot point for one pair of the shrouds.

And I got a copy of Inspecting the Aging Sailboat by Don Casey. Both of these books are very helpful. Confidence builders.

So, this is good--quite easily trailerable and the mast can be pretty easily hand raised. Easy up, easy down. These traits add up to more sailing, I'm sure. Sailing--what's that? It seems I'm only driving.

One of the A22s had 4 bronze opening ports. This one could be the boat. It was generally in very good shape. But I am being encouraged by someone who definitely knows what he is talking about to get a moisture meter and check it anyway. He says that with tapping the fiberglass it is possible to detect delamination but it is not possible to detect moisture that way. Moisture is on the way to delamination but it's not there yet and it is possible to save the core if you can dry it out.

He says he has done this on an old Typhoon by drilling lots of 1/4" holes on the inside of the cabin and circulating air with a fan. Even with heat lamps shining on the deck it took a while, but the core is now dry and solid without the major surgery of recoring.

So, I'm looking in to moisture meters. Ugh.

The other A22 I saw was a nice boat except for the completely shot cockpit seat fiberglass. Someone had screwed a wood trim on the seats without sealing the screws. And there was the mouse smell below. It's going to take a lot of bleach, but I suppose it can be cleaned up. This must have been a special boat. It had all stainless hardware and six (!) winches, factory installed.

I'm at the point where my ability to actually see what I'm looking at is increasing rapidly. I am now quite glad that the deal in Nova Scotia didn't go through. I think the surveyor I hired must have come under the manipulative spell of the "broker" to tell me that the boat was "Bristol." I've seen a couple of boats since that were nicer, less money, and the trailers were roadworthy!

Somewhere in all this a boat friend suggested that the busted mast foot on the Kittiwake I saw was the result of it having been dropped as it was being raised by a crane for stepping. That fits the damage I saw, but who knows.

Finally,  I drove 100 miles north of North Bay, Ontario to see another A22. It is a very nice boat--the most meticulously cared for I've seen. Except for the mild dent one of the poppets is pushing into the aft starboard hull. The owner and I tried to back the poppet off, but the nut wouldn't turn. Some of the boat's weight is going to have to be lifted. That, and there was an odd very regular pattern of dimples in the cabin roof on either side of the companionway hatch.... It had a beautiful set of weatherboards.

Just out of North Bay heading north I saw a sign that warned of moose on the road. Up and over the hill past the sign was a moose standing in the middle of the road facing away from me. It didn't react until I had pulled right up behind it. I wonder if it is trained to stand there to underscore the sign's message. Moose are big! I think in a pinch I could drive under one. They don't spring away like the deer we have all over the place where I live. Instead they kind of take a moment to get things organized and then they begin to run through the gears like a heavy semi pulling out. They never reach much more than a gallumph. But they're big. Real big.

On the way back the next day along the same 100 mile stretch of road I suddenly noticed another moose running across the road into my lane. They're quite a dark color and hard to see at first. I locked up the ABS brakes and headed for the shoulder. The moose saw me and turned to the same direction I was heading and we travelled beside each other for a bit.  If I had had my window down I could have slapped it on the ass! It ran back across the road and gave the two cars coming that way the same thrill I had. We all, all four of us, made it without injury.

But it doesn't always work out that way, I hear.

So, I'm closing in on an A22. I must be closing in. I hope I'm closing in.

Quote from: Porter Wayfare on May 16, 2012, 01:37:01 PM
I'm at the point where my ability to actually see what I'm looking at is increasing rapidly.

No subsitute for getting hands on and understanding for self - the more you learn now, the more time and cash you will likely save later........by not buying more trouble than you bargained for.  IMO relying on others (whether Broker and / or Surveyor is a poor substitute - unless they are writing the checks to fix!).

The main PITA I can see are the distances involved.......I live on a island 9x5 in miles! (Mind, there be over 100,000 of us!).....but me boat was bought from England (a few hundred miles to the North) - so I can sympathise with viewing / buying away from "home".

Anyway, keeps us posted - and if not doing so already, keep a track of the boats you have seen (or simply considered) - if not sold can always go back to them later (sometimes a boat becomes more attractive when cheaper - albeit sometimes not!), and even if sold finding out how much for is a useful datapoint.

I have it on good authority that the dimples on the cabin roof of the A22 in New Liskeard were caused by the holes in the masonite pegboard used for core material:

"The dimples on the cabin are actually prints from the pegboard Nye Scott used as core. Mostly they are seen on the hatch covers. Normally the Nye Scott cabin tops are without core, that's a new one to me. My A22  had pegboard core on the deck and cockpit. Main problem with that stuff is delamination, even if it's dry."

Any insight into the Lockley Newport 214? There's a nice package near me.

No answer on the Lockley Porter. Having just joined SailFar, I saw the thread on your ongoing boat search and the fact that you had looked at several Alberg 22s and you came up into Ontario, my part of the world.

Just did a quick search on Kijiji and see 4 listed currently. Maybe you have seen these listed, but thought  I would pass it along to you. No interest on my part in any of these boats. Would like to see you get something soon :)

http://ontario.kijiji.ca/f-alberg-22-cars-vehicles-boats-watercraft-W0QQCatIdZ29QQKeywordZalbergQ2022QQisSearchFormZtrue

Thanks for the thought. I've looked at two of those A22s. Kijiji is plastered on my computer. It's a great resource.

I sure did think buying a sailboat would be easier than it has turned out to be. Not only that, but I got a moisture meter which has complicated things even further.  One really nice looking boat turned out to have some moisture problems. I'm glad I found that out, but I really liked the boat. The owner withdrew it from sale when I told him. But I think I could have tackled the problem.

By the way, I just finished putting the first couple coats of varnish over the 5-or-so coats of West 207 on my W's decks. I already did three of West 206 with Barrier Coat additive and four more with aluminum powder on the bottom. I added some eel hormones I got from a guy in England to the mix for speed. She's looking great.

Since a Kittiwake has been mentioned in this thread, I thought I'd throw this one in for consideration.  I realize it's a long way from Michigan and no mention of trailer, but she looks nice anyway.

Kittiwake for sale on Lake Norman, NC (http://www.boattrader.com/listing/1974-Kittiwake-Sloop-99971653)

http://swmi.craigslist.org/boa/3093116722.html

Yes, I really like the way a Kittiwake looks too. But when I checked one out I was surprised that is had less room inside than an Alberg 22.

Porter,

Where are you in the search process now?

Yeah Porter- where are you now- been a long dry spell here on your search.

Greetings all,
What have I been up to?  Well, here is a piece I wrote to answer that. Fair winds to you all this coming year!

Edited to fix all the screwed up apostrophes and so on...

Wayfarers All the Way Down

Esteemed Professor: Many Native American cosmologies place the Earth on the back of a giant turtle.
     Curious Student: Well, what's the turtle standing on?
               Professor: Another turtle.
                 Student: So, what's that turtle standing on?
               Professor: Another turtle.
                 Student: How many turtles are there?
               Professor: Nobody knows for sure; but it's turtles all the way down.
                     ̶ Traditional

At the beginning of this year, 2012, I was trying hard to make a big mistake.  S, my wife and so-far mostly phantom crew on Solje (W1321), had said toward the end of 2011's sailing season, "If we go out cruising, I don't want to sit for days in the rain.  I want something with a cabin."

So I began torturing myself with the notion of finding a sailboat with a small cabin that was (in order of importance) beautiful, seaworthy, trailerable and affordable.  You may already see the flaw.

I hope you never find out how easy it is to become obsessed with the hull designs, capsize ratios, and sheer beauty of the hundreds of small yachts that you can find any minute any day (or night) on your computer.  The ones that sold quickly--perfect solutions lost forever.  There must be an aphorism about the most beckoning being the farthest away.

Chester, Nova Scotia, is 27 hours from Michigan.  To tow back home the "Bristol Condition Alberg 22 and trailer" I had found, I traded my economical but insufficiently powerful Toyota pickup for an insufficiently economical but powerful Chevrolet.  In Nova Scotia I was met by the alcoholic broker and the uncurious surveyor that I had engaged to preview the boat.  Let me just say that the boat might have been Bristol ten years ago.  The trailer had never been.  I drove back home depressed but relieved that I wasn't towing that boat behind me. I know what certainly would have happened:  the boat lying on its side across both lanes of a construction detour in downtown Montreal.

Chastened, I resolved not to stray farther than 12 hours from home.  It was no problem finding boats that far away to look at.  To Milwaukee, for instance, or once to New Liskeard, 100 miles north of North Bay, where a moose chased me off the road.

Somewhere in all this I met a man who has forty boats all 26' LOA or less.  There is something compelling about a man with forty boats.  He gave me one good word of advice, "moisture meter," and exponentially increased the difficulty of finding a boat in suitable condition.

Early fiberglass layups involved two layers of fiberglass with varying core materials, like balsa, or pressed-board, or foam.  Being a new technology, it was insufficiently understood that fiberglass is permeable to some extent, and that any holes through it also allow water into the core where it reacts with the core materials and becomes acidic and--but that's another story.  It's enough to know that you don't want to buy a boat with a wet core.  While finding the wet core may not be easy, finding a boat with one is.

Even so, I finally did find the boat of my dreams, a Cape Dory 22, which is an updated Alberg 22.  She was in Sackets Harbor on Lake Ontario.  My forty-boat friend even guessed the boat and her owner and recommended them both.  Many long emails and lots of pictures later I had a strong feeling she was the one.  Good sails.  No inboard motor.  Not a lot of fancy electronics.  Dry.  A top notch trailer.  And a very likeable owner.  I add this last observation because it was one of the best things to come with Solje.

Ah, Solje!  Back to Solje.  I had just spent three weeks giving her a new aluminum powder/epoxy bottom and varnish over a clear epoxy sealer on her decks.  RM and I made plans to take her to the regattas in North Bay for her coming out.  She looked beautiful.  I would go see the Cape Dory 22 the following weekend.

The Wayfarer National Long Distance Race was wonderful.  We would have finished under the time limit had the jib tensioner not blown to pieces.  The flogging genoa undid its tack and was streaming like a pennant from its head.  I really love passage races.

The Canada Day Race, R and I got into some trouble (but got back out before the weekend was over.)  At the buoy south of North Bay where we were to turn east into the channel for Callander Bay we were hit from port aft by what seemed like a full gale to me, but what UA's perspective downgraded to a brief squall.  Everyone else struck their sails.  I thought if we could just keep the boat upright it was a perfect opportunity to blast into first place.  And except for H's Beowulf it looked like we would have.  Alas, we didn't understand that the race had been shortened to the turning buoy.  I wonder if either R or I will ever go that fast in a Wayfarer again.
 
Monday I crewed for UA in the Don Rumble Memorial Series, a nearly overwhelming introduction to the finer points of Wayfarer sailing.  By Monday evening I was thoroughly exhausted.  I went out in a dying breeze and dozed off sailing Solje back and forth on beautiful Callander Bay.

Sailing with UA had given me one glimpse into how far I had to go.  Another stunning indication happened at Clark Lake in 2011, my first race as helm.  It was a windward-leeward course, two times around.  As I was rounding the leeward mark for the first time the H's and UA were both flying across the line for a close finish, and hence sailing twice as fast as I was.  Twice is quite a bit.

So, on the drive home from North Bay it finally hit me, "What was I thinking?  Another boat!"  That was the same question R had posed to S and me when we told him of our bigger-boat plans on the ride back from the Canadian Wayfarer Association's 2012 Annual General Meeting .  So it wasn't news to him when I announced that I was not interested in the Cape Dory 22 after all:  two boats and I'd probably never learn to sail or take care of either of them well.
 
What a joy is an undivided heart.  When I sail, it's Solje.  I can be on the water of a large and uncrowded lake in little over a half-hour.  This is probably a good place to mention another major feature of my life: S's garden.  It is unquestionably hers.  I am allowed to supply what has traditionally been done by mules. We grow most of what we eat, so the garden comes first. By that I mean that during the height of the planting season you might as well not even ask S to pass the salt.  Any chance that she might go sailing has to wait until at least mid-July.  My garden indenture, however, allows me to sail maybe four afternoons a week.

Our first attempt at crewing together was at Fanshawe's sufficiently-late-in-the-season Pumpkin Regatta in 2011.  We were mercifully cautioned by almost all the other competitors to not begin our racing career in such high and fluky winds.  No kidding:  that race would have certainly been the last time we were ever in a boat together.  Even SP and SR capsized before the start of the first race--twice!

But we had a great time and we got to meet V and JE who told us about their recent cruise down the Rideau Canal which they described as their best ever.  Their main advice was to "Wait until all the kids go back to school."  That fit with the garden, so S and I immediately set it as a goal for 2012.

We began researching the Rideau, but soon got interested in another canal we were aware of only by name: the Trent-Severn.  The Trent-Severn Waterway runs generally westward from Trenton, Ontario, on the Bay of Quinte in northeast Lake Ontario through a series of rivers, lakes and canals across lower Ontario to Port Severn at the southeast end of the Georgian Bay.  As the crow flies it is 120 miles, by the waterway 240 miles, through 45 locks, past 36 swing bridges and under 24 stationary bridges with a minimum clearance of 22 feet.
 
Now, a Wayfarer can be heeled under twenty-two feet but having already read about "shooting a bridge" what better reason to learn?  So this year at our first opportunity in late July we headed for the public launch on the Black River in Port Huron.  There are four bridges in the mile between the launch and the St Clair River, the highest being 18' and the lowest six feet.  The wind was against us, so we motored out.

Motoring allowed us to concentrate on the mechanics of dropping the mast.  Solje came with one pair of blocks in her forestay. The line through them leads through the splash board to a cleat in the cockpit.  It is a simple matter for one person to handle the mast.  The process is:
 
1)  Loosen the main and vang up enough to take the boom off the gooseneck to allow it to fold along the mast.  It's a nice touch to have the lanyard that retains the cotter pin that goes through the tack of the main long enough to go around the mast so that the boom hangs up out of the way.
 
2)  Release the jib halyard.  It is not necessary to drop the jib completely.  Not dropping it can even be advantageous, as you will see.

3)  Release the line to the forestay blocks and ease the mast down.  At this point you will realize that the spreaders are in the way of the tiller, and so unless and until you have a crutch that will hold the mast high enough for them to clear, you'll need to hold it there yourself.
 
4)  Drift under.  Pull it all back up.

The last bridge with just six feet of clearance seems to be always open but I think we could get under five feet if we had to.  We motored on out into the St Clair River and up the US side--the outside of the bend--against a 5 knot current with standing waves and huge ominous smooth upwellings.  The river is forty feet deep along there and about a thousand feet wide.  That's a lot of water and it feels like it!

Under the two Blue Water Bridges--it's quite something, all that structure 135' overhead--and then suddenly you're in Lake Huron.  It's big.  It was also warm and clear with a 10 knot wind.  We were relieved to shut the motor off and set sail.  Three hundred feet from shore we could jump out of the boat into waist-deep water onto a white sand bottom.  We took turns towing each other behind the boat.  We sailed around the channel buoys, across the shipping lane and into Canadian water.
 
We sailed on a run back into the St Clair River, swept along with enough steerage way to keep off the breakwall.  We were passed by a lake freighter and one salty heading upriver.  They made far less wake than the occasional monster speedboat.  We turned into the Black River on a reach.  At the first bridge I dropped the mast all the way and S helmed the shot.  At the next bridge I lowered the mast just enough to clear.  The jib which we hadn't dropped all the way was still catching air and pulled us neatly under the bridge.  We were applauded for that bit of good luck by some people on an outdoor restaurant deck.  On to the Trent-Severn!

Except that S spent September flirting with whooping cough.  Our plan to sail in the Pumpkin and go from there on to Orillia to sail the Trent-Severn to Port Severn and back took on a singlehanded aspect.  I got an invitation from UA to crew for him at the Pumpkin and I accepted.
 
When I first started sailing Solje I had a nebulous concern about capsizing.  Now that I have capsized I have a focused concern about losing stuff if I do.  A ten day cruise is a lot of stuff.  I outfitted Solje with six 16"x 24" lidded plastic tubs.  They weren't waterproof, but they weren't going to fall out. They were each lashed down with two lines through holes in the floorboards.  The two 16" high ones went on each side up against the forward bulkhead under the deck.  They held a land tent, sleeping gear and clothes that I wouldn't need to access more than once a day.  The two 12" high tubs fit lengthwise across in front of the rear bulkhead.  One held cooking gear. The other held a selection of outerwear, hats and gloves.  The two 9" high ones fit athwart under the thwart.  One held food and the other held charts, a VHF radio, and small stuff like that. They untied easily and stacked out of the way at night.  I wouldn't change a thing for the next trip.  Boom tent in the rear compartment.  A working jib and a spare main in the forward.

I stopped in Fanshawe long enough to pick up first place with UA in the lightly attended Pumpkin regatta.  Then, hauling  Shades out, UA and I stopped on the steep ramp long enough to pick up this year's Lansdown Spittoon.  The Spittoon is awarded for the year's most boneheaded move.  This year it is for forgetting to lock the winch to hold the boat on the trailer.

I got to the Orillia municipal ramp at sundown Sunday, rigged Solje under a streetlight, launched her, got the boom tent up and went to sleep.

In the morning the ramp was busy with barges, construction crews and big equipment.  I cooked a pressure cooker full of beans and potatoes and headed north into Lake Couchiching.  I sailed with a kind of worried intensity.  It was about as windy as I would want it on such a shallow lake.  I furled the genoa a couple of times.  Then sailing past some tree-covered rocks about three quarters of the way up the lake it hit me--I don't have to be anywhere for the next ten days.  So I sailed into the lee of the rocky island and made a cup of tea.
 
It just got better and better from then on.  Around each turn I would see a maple tree that was redder than the last.  One day I only saw ten other boats.  At night I would sail into the most beautiful place I could find, drop the anchor and go to sleep.

I'd love a race down the Trent-Severn--like a Tour de Ontario in Wayfarers.  I have one word for you: take a working jib.   




 

 

Bravo.


and

Grog  :D

very good read Grog to yea

Great writeup.  Another grog to ya!

Porter, several Grogs to you! For the terrific write up and for finding peace with the Wayfarer. Sounds like you are having fun. Sorry S. couldn't accompany you.

The person with 40 boats wouldn't be BM near Orangeville Ontario would it? I lost count of what he had.

Keep in mind a small boat gathering in August north of Bancroft Ontario. Full moon weekend. Have been Wayfarers there before, among other small open and cabin boats. You would be welcome. 

Just when I am pretty sure that the inflammation has finally been brought under control, this shows up:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/65-25-Seafarer-Sailboat-Honda-10HP-4-Stroke-Outboard-Complete-Ready-Sail-/140948790879?pt=Sailboats&hash=item20d133de5f#v4-42

I think it is a Seafarer Meridian--my favorite bigger boat.  And $305?!  A day and a half left.  It looks to be in not glaringly bad shape.

Anybody in Seattle to help?  Maybe only god can help me.

I'm about an hours drive from there, but I have a full schedule `til midweek or the weekend. Looking at the pics, I think it's on Lake Union. It might be just up the western shoreline from the Center for Wooden Boats. There is/was a schooner/ketch(?) similar to the one in the pics near Seattle Seaplanes.  And also one near Sure Marine. Try Dunatos also.
Maybe a Google image search of those areas will yield a marine related business nearby that can help.
Sorry I can't help more.

Just a point- that's a US built Meridian, not a Dutch built one.

From what I've heard the build quality isn't as good, so if you look, check it carefully.

Rorik, it was calming to have that lead from you.  Charlie J--you and I have discussed Seafarers before.  Thanks for the communication, you two.

Depending on how you look at it, it is either a blessing or a curse that this boat is so far away from me here in Michigan. 

On the curse side there are now only fourteen hours to go and the bid is still only $650!  This hurts.

I really miss my Meridian. One of the finest boats I've owned. 52 years old this year. Would love to still have her.

Well, I hope somebody is happy today--an $860 bid took it.  I've spent more on gas just going to see a boat!  I feel like I'm in junior high again, learning how to date.

On the dating tack, CharlieJ, why don't you still have her?

Quote from: Porter Wayfare on April 08, 2013, 07:25:06 AM
On the dating tack, CharlieJ, why don't you still have her?

Because Laura does. I now have a 21 foot trailerable I bought back. Necessity was mine before.

Well then, since we agree on the Meridian's qualities, CharlieJ, what do you think of this: a Whitby Continental 25? It's a folkboat derivative made in Canada.

(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NzY4WDEwMjQ=/$T2eC16NHJHQFFh3wTjZtBRZWrr!hQ!~~48_20.JPG)

It's 25.25 LOA, 7.25 Beam, 3.8 Draft, 288 SA, 5500 Disp. Sailboatdata page here: http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=542

A "pre-Alberg  30" of sorts.  ;D Designed (adapted?) by Kurt Hansen, who commissioned Alberg to design essentially a 30 ft version of the Folkboat. Thus the A30 was born, and Whitby (Hansen) built em.

I've read they are very good boats, and they look it. Could hardly go wrong with Folkboat roots.

Look forward to Frank's comments. ;)

Great boat in sooo many ways. Folkboat hull shape but with way more headroom thanks to a doghouse cabin top. They are initially tender..as are most similar designs. The biggest problem with these boats is simply "age". They haven't been built for a very long time. The keels are cast iron and both the keel bolts and glassed over timbers they are bolted to should be checked. The deck should be checked for soft spots...all the typical stuff for oldies. I have a very soft spot for these. They look great, sail great and the interior is really well done for a skinny hull. They were actually called "Continental 25's".

If you're looking for an Ariel, this site has some from $800 on up.

http://boats.smartcarguide.com/pearson-26-ariel

David Old Jersey has stirred up the soup again with a post about Fairey Atalantas.  And in reviewing bookmarks about Atalantas and the beautiful one near Vancouver www.aurorawoodwork.com/Tenga.htm‎ (http://www.aurorawoodwork.com/Tenga.htm‎),   I came across this Karlskrona Viggen for sale in NY.  http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/35629 (http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/35629)   have a feeling it might be SailFarer River Wytch's boat http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php/topic,2709.msg28590.html#msg28590 (http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php/topic,2709.msg28590.html#msg28590).  It sounded like a nice boat with a great pedigree.

If she is 21 foot that must be a draft of around 4 foot!

That's part of what I don't get: River Wytch seemed to be pretty up on his Viggen, and I have a feeling he would have known she was 23' as shown in SailboatData: http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=3221 (http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=3221).  They give draft as 3.64'.  The profile they show is of the Albin-made Viggen which has the updated fin keel and skeg mounted rudder.

I sent him an email but I haven't heard back.

The price listed for the boat is $750  I don't know how many GBP that is, but it's not much as a starting asking price--kind of indicates a give-away.  So it may be she's been passed on and in a bit of a state.

I read a Google translated Swedish page about Viggens.  It must be that Viggen is the name of some sorted Tufted Duck because that's how it got randomly translated: sometimes "tufted" and sometimes "duck."  But it sounded like a well thought of boat.   "Like a Vega with four feet out of the middle."

Hi Porter, for what it's worth, this is a very nice deign...

25 foot Contest sailboat - $100 (Hilton NY)
http://rochester.craigslist.org/boa/3780522773.html

The deck [and cabin trunk] is solid fiberglass (no core), so that eliminates one of the potential problems from it having been sitting [and being an older boat, 1967].

Contests have a reputation for being quite ruggedly built (In the Netherlands, as Charlie's Tehani was) and in the same displacement range (or as an Ariel).  

They also have beautiful mahogany interiors, teak soles, etc. with tons of built-in storage (no photo of the interior in the ad so am wondering how exposed to weather it has been).

Has a split underwater body, but a fairly long keel for good tracking ability, and deep forefoot, soft bilges for seakindliness.

Many have small inboards, but could be pushed easily with an outboard on a bracket.

Here are the specs...
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=5401

http://www.contestyachts.com/media/922/contest-25-oud.pdf

Edit: I have found some Contest 25 sisterboat (in good condition) interior photos...[the first is an aft port-side galley, the others are for a forward-galley layout.]

What did you mean by "split underwater body"?  Is the hull made in two pieces joined together in the middle with the deck on top, so three pieces total rather than two?

My understanding is that "split underbody" is a sailboat design term meaning that the rudder is separate (or split) from the keel (sometimes called a "modern underbody") as opposed to the more traditional "full Keel" with attached rudder.

Here's a discussion of the Pearson Renegade 27 (http://www.renegade27.com/history/) where the terms are used.

Many of these designs have a short fin keel to maximize the keels "lift" while minimizing the wetted surface area and have the separate rudder either with or without a skeg.

Many of the Contest designs, including the 25 in this ad, have a long keel and wineglass (soft) bilges, similar to those of more traditional designs (such as Alberg's), and so have similar tracking and seakindly characteristics. They are also ruggedly built, including heavy rudder posts to help compensate for the lack of structural advantage of being attached to the keel. The Hurley 22 (http://www.hurleyownersassociation.co.uk/pages/h22.htm) comes to mind as another such design. [Although if you look at the H22 Gallery of photos, there is one of a boat that was modified to extend the keel (or keel/skeg) to and allow the rudder to attach to it]

Some modern/split designs have short fin keels, beamy hulls with hard bilges, and while fast under some conditions, are not so sea kindly--can be miserable in rough conditions. An example would be Charlie's writings about his long slog to windward (to Mexico) in such a boat, which although much larger in size than his own boat, was much less comfortable. Craig also wrote about a similar experience on a large-ish boat--and how he wished that he was on his Ariel.

As wetted surface area is reduced, usually displacement is reduced, and the cost of the boat is also reduced. So in the late 60s as sailing/cruising began to have a broad appeal and boat builders were in more intense competition it created the market where a Pearson Renegade 27 (http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=677) (to use the above example) replaced the Pearson Triton 28 (http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=508), and could boast about the same amount of "room" below, with considerably less displacement (build cost). Yet, now (40 or 50 years later), Tritons (http://atomvoyages.com/atom.html) are highly sought after as voyaging boats, often by owners prepared to make major investments to restore and refit them. The standard  ;) SailFar sailboat, the Alberg designed Pearson Ariel 26 is the smaller sister of the Triton, and the Alberg 30, the big sister. (There are of course many other high-quality cruising designs out there, which have been listed in other threads.)
 

Mercy!  One of you guys should take this before I stumble.  A Seafarer Meridian cheap.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1963-Seafarer-Meridian-25-ft-/190866873017?_trksid=p4506.m7&_trkparms=algo%3DLVI%26itu%3DUCI%26otn%3D3%26po%3DLVI%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D8961597867321772486#ht_500wt_1182

Sorry, I couldn't get the link thing to work.  But anyway, take it.

http://www.marktplaats.nl/a/watersport-en-boten/kajuitzeilboten-en-zeiljachten/m688752633-sturgeon-22-een-opknapper.html?c=efb2ef4dc323389c4f92ed10afa33e3a&previousPage=lr

Quote from: Porter Wayfare on July 09, 2013, 08:12:21 PM
Mercy!  One of you guys should take this before I stumble.  A Seafarer Meridian cheap.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1963-Seafarer-Meridian-25-ft-/190866873017?_trksid=p4506.m7&_trkparms=algo%3DLVI%26itu%3DUCI%26otn%3D3%26po%3DLVI%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D8961597867321772486#ht_500wt_1182

Sorry, I couldn't get the link thing to work.  But anyway, take it.

Link worked for me. She's a few years newer than Tehani, but still a Dutch built boat. Would make a great single or two hand cruiser. I speak from experience ;) ;)

I mean,  I couldn't get the link to show up as just "Seafarer Meridian."

I thought you once said that the Dutch boats were solid fiberglass....  So what do you think is up with the soft spot on the deck?

Hull and cabin (sides and top)  is solid, decks are balsa cored. I had to re-core the side decks and bow section on Tehani.

One reason I moved the chainplates outboard, so they didn't go through the deck anymore.

Skylark!  At first I just assumed that you had reposted the link to the Meridian because I had said I couldn't get the link to work.  But I just tried it and that boat--a Sturgeon 22--is really a beauty.  A pocket Meridian.  Thank god it is not in the US--or maybe I wish it was....

I really like that boat.  Do you know any more about them?  Thanks.

Here's all I can find about the Sturgeon 22.
http://www.sailingtheweb.com/sailboats/Sturgeon+22/Fibocon/

3.61 ft draft  3900 pounds.  What a beauty.

Edit: Well, maybe draft is more like 2'-6".  The picture does look kind of shallow.
http://www.boatoon.com/en/boat-marketplace/sail+boat/fibocon/fibocon-sturgeon-22/7068696079/details/

I have an old book that has a page about the Sturgeon.  It has an enclosed head and 4 bunks.  Seems to be well laid out.  I would not mind having one.

What's the book?  What does it give for a draft.  Any % amount for ballast?

The book is a Dutch book, Kajuit Zeiljachten tot 7 Meter.  The specifications: LOA 6.72m, Beam 2.28m,
Draft 0.75m, Weight 1650kg, Ballast 600kg, Sail Area 21.3 m2, original price 16,800 fl. 

Thanks.  Have a grog.

I wrapped my boat up for the winter and just when I thought I was settled...
there is this interesting boat--a Carlson Cutlass
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1966-Cutlass-24-Used-Sailboat-with-Cradle-Maine-/111232011541?forcerrptr=true&hash=item19e5f1cd15&item=111232011541&pt=Sailboats

More about the Cutlass here  http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=228

Looks like the design got great reviews.

And if that isn't enough, what about this one?  6'4" headroom!  But at the cost of a 4'9" draft.  Still, maybe there's a tall Sailfarer with a deep slip....
http://www.ebay.com/itm/30-Sagitta-1964-Royal-Danish-Yacht-Full-keel-Sailboat-Hull-4-of-40-original-/161165958270?forcerrptr=true&hash=item25863d5c7e&item=161165958270&pt=Sailboats

So I just can't shake the bigger boat thing.  However I sailed a Wayfarer over a hundred times this year. 

Sail on you all