Any of you out of the states voyagers have your boats U.S. documented?
Any advantange in doing that?
If so, where/how is it done?
Amorous is a documented vessel. She was state registered when I got her but had been documented previously so it was simply a matter of supplying the USCG documentation center with a chain of ownership.
I believe if the vessel hasn't ever been documented before that you must supply them with a current proof of ownership (title, etc.) and an affidavit of measurement (must be more than 5 tons net) which isn't the weight but a formula to measure "cargo capacity".
The advantages are that in most foreign countries a state registration isn't acceptable as the country doesn't have any reciprocal agreements with individual states, only with countries.
Hmmm, ok interesting.
So, does that mean you do not have to get registered in the residing state your in every year?
Triska is documented. It just makes things one heck of a lot easyer when traveling into another country. Boat Papers please Oh this boat is US documented great no problem. Yes I still have to pay my state tabs once a year but I dont have to put those ugly numbers all over the bow. Only the state anual sticker. It also means no civil entity can board the vessel. Coast Guard only.
'Faith' is not documented.
Looking into it, I see many pay 'services' to take care of the paperwork. This seems like yet another unnecessary cost of boat ownership as the process is fairly straight forward. Here is a link to the Coast Guard's site.
Link to USCG's Documentation FAQ's (http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-m/vdoc/faq.htm)
Here is another link when you are trying to find the boat that just waked you and spilled your dinner all over the cabin floor.
Link to list of all documented US vessels searchable by name (http://www.st.nmfs.gov/st1/commercial/landings/cg_vessel2.html)
It depends on which state you keep the boat in, NOT where you live, whether you have to do a state registration as well. Some require it, some don't. As far as paying someone to do the paperwork, that is one way, but I can't for the life of me figure why someone would need to do that. It really isn't that complicated. And you only have to do it once, pay $100 and then you're done paying. No cost to renew, ever. Unless you forget to renew on time, then I think you have to pay $25 or something.
dont remind me .....never mind the boat do you know hawmany people here are not documented????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
When I bought my boat she was already documented, so I just filled out the transfer papers, changed the name to PD, payed the little transfer of name fee and we were set. Each year they send you a form to sign saying nothing has changed. You sign, send back and they send you a current document, no extra fees for any of this. In FL, I also have to pay state registration. Here, if any boat is in the state for ( I believe it is 6 months ?) then it has to be state registered.
I do not think paying someone to do this is necessary. Easy forms on the website and the 800 number is easy to reach a real live person. They are more than happy to answer your questions and will even tell you which forms you need.
Just curious ....... what does one do if he wants to go to a different country and his boat is under the 5 ton minimum for documentation ...... anybody know???
Quote from: Oldguy52 on January 08, 2006, 08:34:07 PM
Just curious ....... what does one do if he wants to go to a different country and his boat is under the 5 ton minimum for documentation ...... anybody know???
FWIW
I asked this question on a 'world cruising' list with many members. Well, actually I asked if anyone had cruised without documentation.....
Several replied that they had done it in years past, but others were adamant that they would not consider it. :-\
No one could point to an actual instance where not having a boat documented had caused any problems, just said it was 'bad'.
FYI, BoatUS can help with the documentation process. Here's the link:
http://www.boatus.com/documentation/
Quote from: Zen on December 27, 2005, 08:07:52 PM
Any of you out of the states voyagers have your boats U.S. documented?
Any advantange in doing that?
If so, where/how is it done?
Been a bunch of boats/folks added since Zen asked. What say you?
There are quite a few advantages to being USCG documented.
The first is that you are recognized as a USA-flagged vessel when abroad. This gives you some legal rights and protections that state-registered vessels do not have, since states are not recognized as sovereign nations. Your boat is effectively US soil when aboard.
The second advantage is that USCG documentation acts as a legally recognized "passport" for your vessel, where some countries may not recognize state registrations. This makes it much easier for customs officials to accept the identity of your boat when it is USCG documented. This is probably due to two facts: First, states are not sovereign nations of the own right. Second, state registrations are all different, and it is harder for a foreign government to recognize them as valid due to these differences.
Another advantage at least in some states, Massachusetts being one of them, is that if you are federally documented, you do not need to be state registered. If you intend to keep the boat a long time, this means you can save a fair bit of money.... since federal documentation is a one-time fee, and renewals are free, where state registration must be paid every year.
Outside of the Caribbean, where state registrations are sometimes recognized, USCG documentation simplifies customs paperwork and your check-in/check-out process. BTW, according to one of my friends who does deliveries for a living, in some countries, USCG vessels effectively pay lower customs fees, since they are allowed to check into the country upon arrival and check out upon leaving, where a state-registered vessel is often required to check in and out at every port.
Another advantage of USCG documentation is that any liens on the boat must be recorded against the documentation certificate. This makes selling the boat easier, since the buyer can easily check for liens or encumbrances. Most financing companies will require a larger boat to be USCG documented for this reason.
However, there are four requirements for documentation, one of which is usually a problem for Sailfar sailors.
First, the boat has to net 5 tons displacement. This is usually difficult for vessels less than 26' in LOA. Even my boat, at 27' 6" just squeaks by, since it is a multihull and lighter displacement for the LOA than a monohull would be.
Second, the boat's owner must be a US Citizen.
Third, the vessel is used strictly for pleasure, no chartering, etc.
Fourth, the owner must be able to establish construction and ownership of the vessel. This can be a bit more difficult on older vessels, which may not have as solid a paperwork trail.
I think that post 9/11, cruising on state registered boats is going to get more and more difficult. Security has become a priority in many countries, and what was acceptable in years past may no longer be as lenient in the future.
One advantage of using a documentation service is that some of them, like real estate title companies, will do a title check on the boat, and will be responsible for any undiscovered liens and encumbrances. Many banks require you to use a documentation service if you are buying and financing a boat through them.
Renewing the USCG documentation is really easy... you download a form from the USCG website, sign it and fax it to them. The only information you need on the form is the boat name, USCG documentation number, and address of the owner. The only information that can change is the address of the owner, otherwise you need to get a new documentation certificate.
One of the biggest issues, according to the USCG Aux who did my VSC last year, for documented vessels, is many forget to install the documentation number inside the boat, as required by federal law. The USCG documentation number must be installed on a clearly visible structural part of the boat, in such a manner that removing or altering the numbers would cause noticeable and significant damage in number at least 3" high. The format is to be "No. ######". The way I did it was to have the numbers made up on a copper plate, and I epoxied and bolted the copper plate to the interior of the boat. :)
QuoteFirst, the boat has to net 5 tons displacement. This is usually difficult for vessels less than 26' in LOA. Even my boat, at 27' 6" just squeaks by, since it is a multihull and lighter displacement for the LOA than a monohull would be.
Just to clarify. This has nothing to do with actual displacement. From the USCG.Mil's FAQ page (http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-m/vdoc/faq.htm#04) on Documentation;
QuoteHOW DO I KNOW IF MY VESSEL MEASURES FIVE NET TONS?
Net tonnage is a measure of a vessel's volume. It should not be confused with the vessel's weight, which may also be expressed in tons. Most vessels more than 25 feet in length will measure five net tons or more. For information about how tonnage is determined, including a web-based interactive form that calculates tonnages, visit the U.S. Coast Guard Marine Safety Center's web site at the Marine Safety Center's Tonnage Page. (http://www.uscg.mil/hq/msc/t3.htm)
A very beamy boat or a boat with a ot of freeboard could be smaller and still qualify. I know of at least one Flicka which is documented.... don't know if the numbers were correctly submitted for it or not...
Quote from: AdriftAtSea on May 15, 2008, 07:05:47 AM
There are quite a few advantages to being USCG documented.
The first is that you are recognized as a USA-flagged vessel when abroad. This gives you some legal rights and protections that state-registered vessels do not have, since states are not recognized as sovereign nations. Your boat is effectively US soil when aboard.
Not sure if you meant "aboard" or typoed "abroad"....the former I do not know about (it's a purely US thing), but the latter is not strictly true (with possible exceptions in certain countries / US dependent territories).....but no point commenting at the moment :)
OK Craig, I am lazy, do our Ariels meet tonnage requirement? :)
Does anyone know which states (besides Mass.) do not require registration of a documented vessel? Sounds like it would be cheaper to keep your boat in those states.
Quote from: Tim on May 15, 2008, 11:45:51 AM
OK Craig, I am lazy, do our Ariels meet tonnage requirement? :)
Yup. There are a bunch of Ariels / Commanders that are documented.
The 5-ton requirement refers to "gross tons" of cargo space, not displacement.
My Cape Dory 25D apparently just squeaked by--she was documented when I bought her and I kept the documentation. If she, or a Flicka, can be documented, then an Ariel must also qualify.
With documentation I don't have to pay Mass. registration, but I still have to pay my excise tax to the town where the boat is moored. No tax, no mooring!
And, since documented vessels must have a home port, presumably the tax folks for that state would try to collect.
--Joe
Very true... but the reason the Telstar just squeaks by is that the draft on the Telstar is only 14" ors so and the main hull is fairly narrow....
Quote from: s/v Faith on May 15, 2008, 10:57:05 AM
QuoteFirst, the boat has to net 5 tons displacement. This is usually difficult for vessels less than 26' in LOA. Even my boat, at 27' 6" just squeaks by, since it is a multihull and lighter displacement for the LOA than a monohull would be.
Just to clarify. This has nothing to do with actual displacement. From the USCG.Mil's FAQ page (http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-m/vdoc/faq.htm#04) on Documentation;
QuoteHOW DO I KNOW IF MY VESSEL MEASURES FIVE NET TONS?
Net tonnage is a measure of a vessel's volume. It should not be confused with the vessel's weight, which may also be expressed in tons. Most vessels more than 25 feet in length will measure five net tons or more. For information about how tonnage is determined, including a web-based interactive form that calculates tonnages, visit the U.S. Coast Guard Marine Safety Center's web site at the Marine Safety Center's Tonnage Page. (http://www.uscg.mil/hq/msc/t3.htm)
A very beamy boat or a boat with a ot of freeboard could be smaller and still qualify. I know of at least one Flicka which is documented.... don't know if the numbers were correctly submitted for it or not...
I meant to type ABROAD. A USCG Documented boat is recognized as a USA flagged vessel. A state registered boat is not. A USCG Documented vessel does have some legal rights and protections granted to it as a US-flagged vessel, like getting assistance from the US consulate/embassy.
Quote from: David_Old_Jersey on May 15, 2008, 11:06:45 AM
Quote from: AdriftAtSea on May 15, 2008, 07:05:47 AM
There are quite a few advantages to being USCG documented.
The first is that you are recognized as a USA-flagged vessel when abroad. This gives you some legal rights and protections that state-registered vessels do not have, since states are not recognized as sovereign nations. Your boat is effectively US soil when aboard.
Not sure if you meant "aboard" or typoed "abroad"....the former I do not know about (it's a purely US thing), but the latter is not strictly true (with possible exceptions in certain countries / US dependent territories).....but no point commenting at the moment :)
I am buying a boat from a guy who says he mailed in the documentation renewal (late) about 2 weeks ago. Anyone know how long it takes to get the paper back?
It only takes about a week to get the renewal back, but if he was late by two weeks, chances are pretty good that the USCG let the documentation lapse and it has to be re-applied for.
However, the old USCG documentation should give you enough information to complete the sale, as any liens on the boat should be registered against it. I would add a line to the bill of sale or sales contract stating that the boat is being sold clear of any and all liens or claims against it—just to CYA about any possible existing liens or debts he may owe. If he isn't willing to sign a sales contract with such a line in it...I'd walk away from the sale.
Call...
Debbie Moore
Documentation Officer 1-B
National Vessel Documentation Center
1-800-799-8362
and ask.
Thank you. I did get things cleared up. They are very helpful.
Amazing - a government agency/person who really wanted to help.
Craig's reference is entirely correct.
A couple of points -
The statement buried in the referenced thread that a US-flag boat is sovereign territory is not strictly true. You can be boarded by local law enforcement and are subject to local law (unlike the sovereign territory of a US Embassy for example).
The biggest issue is that (aside from the Bahamas that are used to FL state-registered boats) most countries are simply not prepared to deal with a state registration document. You'll be pretty unhappy with the extra time taken and the extra attention you receive. As more countries move to completely automated C&I systems the lengthy registration numbers some states use may not fit in the space provided in the C&I officer's computer application. A junior official is going to need more senior help to deal with that.
I'd add that in many countries, a state-registered boat will have to check-in with customs multiple times and pay the required fees repeatedly.... which doesn't happen with a USCG documented boat.
Quote from: AdriftAtSea on September 28, 2009, 08:51:13 AM
I'd add that in many countries, a state-registered boat will have to check-in with customs multiple times and pay the required fees repeatedly.... which doesn't happen with a USCG documented boat.
Can you provide a source for that? I've never heard it before.
Nor have I. Our boat isn't large enough to measure at five net tons, and I'd bet the Ariel's aren't either. No way we can document.
But I've never heard of any country charging multiple entries for state registration.
Quote from: CharlieJ on September 28, 2009, 12:00:54 PM
Nor have I. Our boat isn't large enough to measure at five net tons, and I'd bet the Ariel's aren't either. No way we can document.
But I've never heard of any country charging multiple entries for state registration.
Charlie a number of Ariels have been documented. I can no longer find the USCG interactive page that did the calcs, I do remember that I could make them work. It may have to do with being able to measure depth including keel because it is integrated.
Here is the link to the form
http://www.uscg.mil/hq/msc/docs/CG-5397.pdf
Quote from: Oldrig on May 15, 2008, 03:27:50 PM
The 5-ton requirement refers to "gross tons" of cargo space, not displacement.....
--Joe
This is correct. The Ariel / Commander is large enough, as are many of the other boats here.
The Displacement is the 'ad-measurement' formula displacement. It is like cargo volume, if you could carry cargo loaded up to the very top of the deck... much greater number then the actual displacement.
Dan's comment on draft in this thread doesn't make any sense to me either - I'm open to information but in my experience the design draft has little to do with the maximum cargo draft (my words for clarity) that relates to net tonnage.
Quote from: Auspicious on September 28, 2009, 06:37:53 PM
Dan's comment on draft in this thread doesn't make any sense to me either - I'm open to information but in my experience the design draft has little to do with the maximum cargo draft (my words for clarity) that relates to net tonnage.
Dave,
Don't know which comment you are refering to, but it is neither the draft, or cargo draft... it is the measurement of how much cargo it WOULD hold if you filled it up to the gunnels...
Take a look at the PDF form Tim posted a couple of posts back. It should clear it up for you.
This has happened to several cruisers I've met and spoken with personally.
Quote from: Auspicious on September 28, 2009, 09:47:19 AM
Quote from: AdriftAtSea on September 28, 2009, 08:51:13 AM
I'd add that in many countries, a state-registered boat will have to check-in with customs multiple times and pay the required fees repeatedly.... which doesn't happen with a USCG documented boat.
Can you provide a source for that? I've never heard it before.
Flickas can no longer be documented/ The ones that are are based on the older reg's.
Quote from: s/v Faith on September 28, 2009, 07:30:32 PM
Quote from: Auspicious on September 28, 2009, 06:37:53 PM
Dan's comment on draft in this thread doesn't make any sense to me either - I'm open to information but in my experience the design draft has little to do with the maximum cargo draft (my words for clarity) that relates to net tonnage.
Dave,
Don't know which comment you are refering to, but it is neither the draft, or cargo draft... it is the measurement of how much cargo it WOULD hold if you filled it up to the gunnels...
Take a look at the PDF form Tim posted a couple of posts back. It should clear it up for you.
Thanks Craig, but I'm clear on what net tonnage means! *grin* I was trying to clarify the matter without any success. My feeble attempt at a point was that the design draft mentioned isn't relevant to the calculation of net tonnage. In fact, the calculation used for small recreational boats is a simplified approximation based on empirical parameters to reduce the complexity of the documentation process.
Given a small boat (less than the documentation requirement) and a desire to travel outside the US beyond the Bahamas I think I would pursue NVDC for an exception. The effort might be fruitless but I think it is worth a try - can't hurt and might help. My experience with the good USCG folks in West Virginia has always been positive.
I suspect the way the Ariel makes the tonnage rule is by measuring the depth in this manner
(http://i.pbase.com/g1/56/886856/3/117708350.2JgMqBS8.jpg)
Quote from: Tim on September 29, 2009, 10:21:05 AM
I suspect the way the Ariel makes the tonnage rule is by measuring the depth in this manner
(http://i.pbase.com/g1/56/886856/3/117708350.2JgMqBS8.jpg)
Yup.
That is exactly what the form says you should do.
Quote from: s/v Faith on September 29, 2009, 10:27:28 AM
Quote from: Tim on September 29, 2009, 10:21:05 AM
I suspect the way the Ariel makes the tonnage rule is by measuring the depth in this manner
(http://i.pbase.com/g1/56/886856/3/117708350.2JgMqBS8.jpg)
Yup.
That is exactly what the form says you should do.
But it is close ;)
I have heard that the Contessa 26 has also been documented. Is that only under the old rules? BTW- I just got the Documentation papers back on my Valiant- Yeah! I'm legal!!!
Quote from: newt on September 29, 2009, 12:50:29 PM
I have heard that the Contessa 26 has also been documented. Is that only under the old rules? BTW- I just got the Documentation papers back on my Valiant- Yeah! I'm legal!!!
I am not sure there was a rule change.
I had researched this, and the web site, and accounts of prior small boat documentation... The only time I recall hearing anyone talk about a rule change is when Lynx just posted it.
Lynx, do you have a reference that says there was a rule change?
I got the Flicka data from the Flicka forum about 4 years ago. All of the Flicka owners say the same. The new rules will not allow the Flicka to be documented. To small
The forums was the Yahoo forum.
There are many misconceptions about documenting smaller vessels out there (and floating around on SailFar here). There was a rule change affecting smaller boats right around the 5 net ton mark, generally 26 ft or so in length and with full keels. I initially posted this on the Cape Dory board but will repost it here - hopefully it will clear up the confusion.
This dilemma was discussed on the Contessa 26 board, in which a member was trying to document his boat but the online calculator was coming up with 4 net tons (5 is the minimum for documentation). However, other Contessa26s had been documented, so he knew it was possible.
You can follow the thread here at http://www.co26.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=223
Here's a scan of the final USCG letter explaining what he needed to do to document the boat is below:
(http://www.co26.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10035/co26_tonnage.gif)
I've been through the documentation process for grandfathered boats several times, and would be happy to help anyone with questions, just send me an email off-list.
Bill,
Thank you for the reply, it is much appreciated. I will move this post into the thread on documentation so it will be available to all for future reference.
Grog to you sir! ;D
Thanks Bill, another grog for you and you will probably get an email from me in the near future.
Tim
from the cape dory board
Hi all,
I just sent in my paperwork to document Saga Blue. I spent a lot of time researching the issue on this board. The critical document is the Coast Guard letter posted sometime ago, re: Contessa 26 Sailboat (ON 1190689). I intend to keep a copy of that letter in my file.
When I used the automated CG-5397 form (measurement form), the boat did not qualify. However, after carefully reading the letter and talking to the people at the Coast Guard Documentation Center, I realized that on question 5 we should check "sailboat distinct keel" rather than "sailboat integral keel." Both the Contessa and the Cape Dory have what I would call an intergal keel, but the letter said to use distinct keel--so did the nice folks at the documentation center. With that change, it measured out at 6 grt and 5 nrt. It was very easy.
I sent in the following documents: CG 1258 (application)
CG 5397 (simplified measurement), copy of my state title and credit card authorization form ($133). Everything but my state title is on their website.
http://www.uscg.mil/hq/cg5/nvdc/nvdcforms.asp
I also put all documents in a pdf file and emailed. It could not have been any easier. I'll keep the board posted on the process. I anticipate approximately 2 month processing time.
Yeah, it took about 7 weeks to get the paperwork back on my E-27.
To drag up this topic from the dusty corners, I have a (probably dumb) question...
given the size of my boat (Bristol Corsair 24) is it unlikely that it could qualify for U.S. Documentation? It's a pretty stodgy boat, so even if it is shorter than the 'norm' for documentation, if it's possible to do, I'd like to do that. Any thoughts? Lashes? Laughter?
???
Welcome aboard.
If it were me, and I were in you position I would run the numbers through the USCG form (for simplified measurement).
See if you can make it work, and read the rule amendment mentioned above in this thread. See what you come up with.
THere are documented Flicka's so LOA is not the limiting factor.
Good luck!
Hmmm. Well, I guess I need to be beaten with the 'obvious' stick. I'll have to play with this a little to see if it comes out. Was even pondering adding some freeboard (in conjunction with rubrail repair) by giving it a few inches of toerail (because I find it a little intimidating to have only the lifelines there).
edit: woohoo! Without any fudging, I'm getting 5 tons, and with the adjustments made as discussed in the Contessa letter, it hits 7 tons. That makes life a lot better... the thought of hitting port someplace offshore and not being U.S. flagged gives me concern. So I'm going to go that route and get this baby 'doc'd'.
Now, if I could only get her home-ported at Toad Suck, Arkansas, things would be wonderful! (A 'suck' in Mark Twain-type river parlance is a small whirlpool or eddy).
Home port can be anywhere you want it to be. "Toad Suck Arkansas is going to get alot of pictures :)
It took me a few months to get documented. Stay with it. It is worth it.
Quote from: newt on January 05, 2010, 02:52:06 PM
Home port can be anywhere you want it to be. "Toad Suck Arkansas is going to get alot of pictures :)
It took me a few months to get documented. Stay with it. It is worth it.
I guess, having reached the 'executive age' where reading for detail seems more difficult, as that little detail escaped me.
In which case, Toad Suck will be the place since it is officially listed as a named place in the Federal Information Processing Standards Publication 55DC as required... it used to be the site of a ferry crossing the Arkansas River (once upon a time much more of an adventure than it is now), but the ferry went away with the building of a bridge.
It seems I have lots of time to get this thing prepped and ready, so I can be patient on the response time.
Digging back a bit, but has any registered an Ariel recently? and if so, what data did you use?
Have been considering it, and frankly I've had too many people with conflicting information and just keep going in circles.
Been told to use the integral keel/hull form, the separate keel, even been told to exaggerate the numbers to obtain suitable results. I've also been told that an Ariel is nowhere near large enough to document (which conflicts with the many I have seen!)
Any advice welcome!
Thanks
Ken
kendall, did you try plugging your numbers into the form to see what came up? That should tell you in a hurry. I think I'd try doing the numbers "straight" before I decided to do anything fancy with it. It might just come out... my Bristol gets through the window okay... surely your Ariel would.
I would suggest reading this thread, especially post #42... getting your paperwork together and submitting it.
You will ALWAYS find someone to tell you why it will never work.... much better to go ahead and do it before they
get a chance to convince you not to try....
... Good luck. :)
Quote from: s/v Faith on April 12, 2010, 10:42:04 PM
You will ALWAYS find someone to tell you why it will never work.... much better to go ahead and do it before they get a chance to convince you not to try....
Grog for that.
Double that Grog!
My Cape Dory 25D was documented when I bought her, and I've been renewing the documentation ever since.
It's possible that she was originally documented before the formula changed (the documentation predates the previous owner, who had her for 10 years before I bought her 7 years ago), but the USCG continues to accept the renewal, and IMHO that's all that counts.
Fill out the form and submit it.
Good luck!
I've tried filling out the form on the website, which I was told would produce the tonnage figures, but for some reason I can't get it to work correctly. No browser or pdf reader combination I've tried works out. Adobe simply states that the form uses features that won't work with the updated version, so they have been disabled. (May be due to running W7-64bit, don't want to reinstall XP simply to check!)
However a spreadsheet using the calculations on the USCG site shows that it does meet the requirements with a little room to spare, So I will give it a run.
Thanks for the replies!
Ken
Quote from: kendall on April 14, 2010, 09:46:04 AM
I've tried filling out the form on the website, which I was told would produce the tonnage figures, but for some reason I can't get it to work correctly. No browser or pdf reader combination I've tried works out. Adobe simply states that the form uses features that won't work with the updated version, so they have been disabled. (May be due to running W7-64bit, don't want to reinstall XP simply to check!)
However a spreadsheet using the calculations on the USCG site shows that it does meet the requirements with a little room to spare, So I will give it a run.
Thanks for the replies!
Ken
Good luck Ken,
Let us know how it turns out. I gave you a grog to enjoy while you are waiting. ;D
I'd point out that if a Flicka, which is essentially a 20' boat, can be documented, most heavily built pocket cruisers, like the Cape Dory 25D and such, should be capable of being documented as well.
Do not confuse weight with tonnage. The Flicka weighs 6000 pounds. However, I do not remember the formula for tonnage, which is a computation of cargo capacity and weight.
In any case, why isn't some organization pushing for a change in the reg's to make any boat that plies international waters eligible for documentation? That is the real issue.