This is my second time poking around the SailFar forums. The first time I didn't think that I'd fit in- my boat is too big and complex for this crowd!
But as I've been looking for something smaller and simpler to sail around while working on the big boat, I thought maybe we'd have something in common after all. What is considered small, medium, and large around here?
0-20, 20-30, 30+ ?
SeaFarer,
Don't be shy. SailFar is as much a state of mind as a specific boat length.
Your knowledge, experience and questions are always welcome.
Climb aboard, Mate, and enjoy a grog!
--Joe
I think sometimes here we forget that we are really about simple boats. What is big/small is a personal choice.
For instance Lin and Larry Pardey are small boat advocates, but Taliesin has a cruising displacement of 18000.
Thats similar to many 40 foot cruiser/racers that are more common, and only slightly less than a westsail 32 which is a huge boat for its size. The Farr 45 displaces 15763 lbs, So even though its a larger boat, its still a smaller boat.
The difference here is that it is a far more complex boat.
When it comes to cruising we need enough displacement to be able to safely carry our stores/water/ect, and the simplicity to be able to fix everything whenever and wherever it happens to fail.
Simple systems are they key.
If you have any doubt, compare the two young ladies that recently headed around the world....
Jessica, got rolled and her wind vane got bent....and sailed onto the finish.
Abbey had to quit her bid for solo after her backup auto pilot gave out and headed into south africa for repairs.
Welcome to the forum! ;D
The size question has been on my mind a lot lately. If you're interested, look for my previous posts in the general discussion. So far I've only been considering keelboats.
I've been actively looking at boats and I feel that it's the depth of the keel that takes the boat out of the trailerable range. To deal with weight you can add another axle, but what are you going to do about the keel, mount a crane?
Of course, LOA and displacement and draw have a proportionate relationship, so they go up together, but I find the height of the boat on a trailer to be the most intimidating.
So the short answer, I guess, for me, is less than 4 feet draft. Even that puts the boat way up in the air. Somehow it has to get in the water!
Porter
As a kid, I taught myself how to sail on a lake in a little styrofoam Snark clone. Now that I'm all grown-up my 27' Watkins seems big enough. And I can't imaging how I would single-hand my dock mates 39' cutter, jut too big. My boat is just right ;D Simple systems with not much that can break and when it does, its easy enough for me to figure out how to fix it myself.
It's not so much the size, per se, as it is the complexity. I used to own a Cross 35 trimaran, ketch rig, and I had no difficulties single handing it, ONCE AWAY from the dock. Actually,, leaving a dock wasn't bad- coming back in, in any kind of wind and or current could be hairy. Anchoring and un-anchoring wasn't bad.
In Feb last year, Laura and I did a delivery on a Tartan 41 to Mexico. In Sept she double handed that boat back from the Rio Dulce, to Rockport, Texas. I haven't a doubt in my mind that she ( at 5'2) couldn't single hand that boat. I don't know if she could do it in storm conditions, but other very small ladies have done so in far larger boats-witness Dame Ellen McArthur (5'3) sailing , nay, RACING around the world in her open 60. But they don't anchor.
But sure wouldn't want that Tartan- Has all the bells and whistles. too much complexity -My trimaran was a basic boat-no external A/C power, no "systems", just plain vanilla stuff.
And I had two more paragraphs that just "went away" somehow. >:( >:(
So let me wind up by saying- bigger is more comfortable, but harder to deal with around hard stuff. For me, that break comes at about 30-32 feet. And as I said earlier in some thread ( I lose track of where), given a tad more beam, my Tehani is about perfectas a shorter term cruiser. She is NOT large enough for two to LIVE aboard, full time. Takes a heavier displacement boat for that. Which is where Taliesen comes in, with her 18000 pound disp. Also bear in mind- Lin is 4'10 and Larry is just over 5 feet tall THAT makes a difference also, believe me.
When I refered to Jessica and Abbey,
Abbey I ment so say solo NONSTOP around the world.....which is when she diverted to south africa. This was caused by her backup auto pilot going out. Thus ending her bid for nonstop.
Jessica Was actually only knocked down, however violently enough to bend equipment, however not a full 360 degree roll.
My Apologies for not reading my own posts carefully! ;D
I like to think a very large boat could be a sailfarer's boat if only it had enough folks on it. I seem to remember a guideline I read somewhere of about 7000#/person. Simple systems, of course. I've run across some boats like this out there, but I don't know if any of them are on this forum.
Quote from: marujo_sortudo on February 17, 2012, 12:02:29 PM
I like to think a very large boat could be a sailfarer's boat if only it had enough folks on it.
Hmmm....that's not MY definition of sailfar boat. YMMV.
Too big and too many folks does not equal "simple" in my mind. More people mean more opinions, and if the boat is big enough, requires more "cooperation;" discord among the crew can be a problem.
If only one (or a small number) of the crew has real sailing competence, a big boat can be a detriment to the remaining crew if one of the knowledgeable ones gets injured.
Quote
I seem to remember a guideline I read somewhere of about 7000#/person.
Wow, that's a lot of boat! ;)
I'd say 7000 lb per person is easily at least double what many of us here on sailfar consider "small, safe and comfortable."
2000-3000 lb per person seems more line with where many of us seem to lie, but also with an upper limit on actual (not per person normalized) size.
You get high normalized numbers for single handers on boats 24-30 feet, but the thing is that adding a second crew member on boats that size has little "cost." Lots of families of 4-5 actively cruise on 25-30 footers.
The sailfar "limit" is grey and fuzzy somewhere roughly around the 30 foot line...some 32 footers are certainly sailfar boats, other 28's are not. But, I think we'd be hard pressed to find very many 45 footers that are no matter how simple or how many people are aboard, though there may be a few as exceptions.
Tehani- 5300 lbs dry disp, 7500 loaded for crusing (guesstimate).
Two aboard for two years quite comfortably.
My 35 foot Cross trimaran was a simple boat. No "systems". No a/c power, no refrigeration (ice chest) no tv no nothing but basics- 3 livedaboard two years quite nicely.
The 41 footer I was aboard fordelivery last year was NOT simple.
The 38 footer I'm aboard now isn't either.
One thing to add into the mix- the physical size of the people-what might be a comfortable boat for 5'8", 165 pounds might not be for 6'4", 220 pounds.
I remember reading that Arther Beiser in his book The Proper Yacht stated that the minimum size yacht for a couple to do extended cruising on was 15,000 pounds displacement [in that same 7,000-lb/person]. I noticed that he and his wife often cruised on their 52 [58]-foot 64,000 pound ketch (setup with special equipment so that could handle it). I suspect that is getting on the big side... :)
One of the cruising blogs that I had followed was of a couple with a 37-foot vintage sailboat. Another couple that I followed cruised on a 35-foot center cockpit/aft cabin. As I followed their adventures and looked at there photos aboard the boat, it seemed like they had plenty of space. Both couples are now considering larger boats. I do not know how much larger... 40 feet? 45 feet?
When I was giving my free advice to Porter about starting off on the small side, Cruise wrote about how when you get too large a boat, one way that it can become a problem is the loss of self sufficiency of a boat that size, and the need to be dependent on finding crew to be able to go sailing.
For me, it took this form... At some point sitting around the Kitchen table, we realized that there was nothing that we had been doing (or planned to do in the foreseeable future) with the 30-foot, 9,000-lb sailboat that we could not have done on a sailboat about half that size [by displacement] and enjoyed just as much.
I had found a great deal on the 30-footer, but I had not fully appreciated the difference between initial cost with ultimate ongoing costs--to haul, launch, rig, maintain, insure, equip, etc. When one has a limited budget, and you get into a position where you can only marginally afford the boat (for instance, the economy slows), than it does not take much to push the boat from something that is comfortably affordable over into something that is a real burden that you must sacrifice other things in your budget to continue to do. If you are not moving aboard and cruising full time, you still have other major expenses and obligations competing for your time--a mortgage, house to maintain, vehicles, other activities, traveling to visit friends and family, etc.
In fact, after trading down to a 25-foot, 5,000-pound (typical Sailfar-sized) cruising boat, we also got the Cape Dory Typhoon 19 to use in the near future while restoring the 25-foot boat. We ended up enjoying the Typhoon as much as we ever did the 30-footer. A lot of the sailing we enjoyed on both boats was the daysailing and overnighting. Some of the sailing was daysailing with my Sea Dog and the Typhoon was ideal for that. It was a major factor that the Typhoon and trailer could be purchased outright for what the 30-footer cost to operate and store--and we became totally self-sufficient, and that turned out to be priceless.
If we had done more ambitious cruising, then the Typhoon would of course have been too small. Still, even if expanding into some coastal cruising, it seemed like the 25-footer would be adequate, and it could be setup on a trailer to retain much of that self-sufficiency that the Typhoon 19 and trailer provided.
I now have the Centaur and Snapdragon projects that I hope to eventually grow back into--at the moment--in this economy--they, too are too big and expensive to use, even if they were ready. I hope that a 26-foot, 6700-pound boat does not prove to be too large for me. Like the other (economic) factors, it is uncertain. A Centaur seems about as large a boat as I would want to try to trailer and to step the 31-foot mast on my own, even with its Tabernacle base.
I wrote in my advice to Porter that one could tow a boat this size (a bit smaller than the CD27 that he was considering) with a good trailer and a 3/4-ton pickup. Since I wrote that, I have been thinking about it, and there is quite a difference between towing a boat and trailer of this size and one with a 25-footer. Even though it is possible, I cannot imagine towing a Centaur or CD27 a long distance. when something is that large, the amount of hyper vigilance needed is stressful and tiring. I think that I would find myself in the same situation--that there was nothing that I would do on a Centaur or CD27 that I could not do with a CD25, CD25D, Ariel or similarly sized boat. Towing a Centaur or CD27 locally, from my house yard to a ramp or boatyard to be lifted off and launched, seems comfortably doable, but not long distance trailering.
Granted, for those living aboard or doing or planning long-distance cruising, a 30-foot (or 32-foot, or 35-foot) sailboat can be just right, and probably would be for me, too--if my situation was such that I could afford it. When I read the blogs of those that were moving up from the 35- or 37-foot boats to something considerably larger, I did have some concern that they may find that they lose more than they gain. Yet it is true as others have said, that it is a personal choice, and it may well work out for them.
So I guess that one way that I define too big is when you find that you are not having fun anymore.
I heard a quote the other day that I liked...[that resonated with my own experience about the cost factor...]
We spend money that we do not have
On things we do not want
To impress people we do not like.
Quote from: Jim_ME on February 17, 2012, 04:23:10 PM
a problem is the loss of self sufficiency of a boat that size
nothing that we had been doing (or planned to do in the foreseeable future) with the 30-foot, 9,000-lb sailboat that we could not have done on a sailboat about half that size and enjoyed just as much.
it does not take much to push the boat from something that is comfortably affordable over into something that is a real burden that you must sacrifice other things in your budget to continue to do.
We ended up enjoying the Typhoon as much as we ever did the 30-footer.
we became totally self-sufficient, and that turned out to be priceless.
Even though it is possible, I cannot imagine towing a Centaur or CD27 a long distance. when something is that large, the amount of hyper vigilance needed is stressful and tiring.
those that were moving up from the 35- or 37-foot boats to something considerably larger, I did have some concern that they may find that they lose more than they gain.
So I guess that one way that I define too big is when you find that you are not having fun anymore.
I heard a quote the other day that I liked...[that resonated with my own experience about the cost factor...]
We spend money that we do not have
On things we do not want
To impress people we do not like.
All very well said, Jim. Thanks and grog for that post.
Common, oft repeated themes here at sailfar...
Seems like there's a lot of YMMV. I don't feel the need to constrain it really. A boat is simple if you can spend lots of time cruising and a moderate amount of time doing most of the maintenance yourself. Ideally, I would think it should be easy to handle short-handed. I think of the Pardey's a true sailfarer's and they certainly had bigger boats (esp. displacement wise) than many on here. It is worth noting that the boat I would choose for coast-wise cruising would be lighter than a boat I would choose for passagemaking.
My boat will be more complicated than I would like, as I will need to worry about charging laptops, boosting wifi, etc. so I can take my work with me when I go. That said, it allows to be go (indefinitely) at a young age and while providing an income not only to myself, but a couple of employees stateside. That's the compromise for me. With paper charts, a couple of outdated GPSes, a hand-bearing compass, and a plastic sextant, I don't plan on setting records for complexity. I ended up with a 32' 16,000# (fully loaded) displacement boat even though I had be searching for something closer to 28' and even lusted after a little 25-footer.
If my situation changed tomorrow, I would go in *any* boat I enjoyed and could safely and reasonably pilot and maintain for the areas I hoped to cruise. I would shoot below my budget and keep a rainy day fund of some kind if I could be so lucky and thereby hope to whether whatever economic storms befell me. I can imagine a large variety of boats that might fit that bill; although, for me, most would probably be in the 25'-35' range and preferably on the lower side. Heck, I wouldn't mind setting out in a little Calcedonia Yawl with a tent and some camping supplies....
http://www.grapeviewpointboatworks.com/caledonia.html
PS 40'+ boat have always seems like excess to me for couples or less, but being down here in the Caribbean for the first time, I'm shocked by the size and quantity of megayachts down here. Many of them have tenders larger than sail far boats!!! I never really imagined, for example, sail boats with six spreaders on a single mast!
PPS I certainly acknowledge the challenges of finding an agreeable and competent crew on a larger vessel, but I like to believe it is possible. I don't imagine it'll ever be common. Dealing with finances and maintenance schedules, alone, would be a great challenge for many. Still, if anyone out there was crazy enough to pull it off, I'd like to meet them in some anchorage, somewhere.
Quote from: marujo_sortudo on February 21, 2012, 01:43:20 PM
Seems like there's a lot of YMMV. I don't feel the need to constrain it really.
There's no constraint on anyone defining this stuff as they will or owning (and outfitting) a boat as they see fit. Part of the sailfar spirit, as it's been defined over the years, is individual freedom as it pertains to "your boat, your choice." That's why we (or at least I) use phrases like YMMV when discussing things that are to a degree "opinion."
But that said, sailfar.net...THIS discussion group...has not only a "KISS boat" but also a "small boat" focus. The thread title is "What is considered small
HERE," not meta-definitions of small in terms of displacement per person that don't impact things like draft, slip fees, loads on hardware, etc.
And though it keeps getting brought up, for my part, I don't consider a boat "big" by displacement; 'small boat' as I've always taken it means smaller LOA. Most of our discussions of 'the advantages of small' include things like cheaper slip rental, cheaper haul-outs, less paint, smaller loads on hardware, etc, etc...all that pertain to the physical size of the hull, not her weight per se.
But, by any standard generally adopted in the popular discussion of "world cruiser" or "blue water yacht," that is by comparison of what the 'conventional wisdom has to say about what's is "required," I'd say both
Serrafyn and
Taleisin qualify as "small" no matter what they displace....small AND KISS.
{The above opinions are those of the poster and do not represent official SailFar corporate policy. ;D }
Quote from: Captain Smollett on February 21, 2012, 02:15:50 PM
{The above opinions are those of the poster and do not represent official SailFar corporate policy. ;D }
We gots a corporation? ... and a policy? now?
;D
You know, one of the best things (for me anyways) about SailFar (aside from the great folks on here) is the good reinforcement against "needing" a 45' yacht with a ton of electronics & fancy stuff in order to go out into the water. There's an awful lot of "pressure" out there in articles, sales people, marina people, advertising, etc. etc. trying to upsize and fancify the heck out of everything.
Quote from: tomwatt on February 21, 2012, 08:02:10 PM
There's an awful lot of "pressure" out there in articles, sales people, marina people, advertising, etc. etc. trying to upsize and fancify the heck out of everything.
You know, this may seem off topic a bit, but in my warped sense, it does seem related.
The other night, I attended an organizational meeting for the local Youth Sailing Club (only in its second year). Last year, the club did very well, but over the winter, there was talk of upsizing and fancifying it.
Um. Well...it went like this.
Club was set up to be a "community" club with fees low enough to be affordable to just about anyone (and some scholarships available to the rest). These fees were 25% or less of the next closest similar club. The group had boats and access to facilities to accommodate about 20 young sailors.
The gist of the argument was "well, we filled it, so our "product" is in demand, and the other clubs charge much more, so we should, too." I balked at this idea - rather strongly.
In the end, the club leadership decided they'd rather keep the community focus and so long as fees meet expenses, no need to raise the rates. Cool, right?
Well, at the Friday night meeting, the question was again asked, "what are you doing to grow?"
I'm left wondering "why." Why the concern with growing...just to grow, just to get bigger and more complicated. When I mentioned a referenced to the old joke about the Mexican Fisherman and the American Businessman, at least one person laughed and nodded in understanding.
It's true with boats (and houses, I think)...for some reason, we seem programmed to want bigger, even if there is no need. Forget for a moment the person that needs a bigger boat for whatever reason and just think of the people who want bigger for NO reason (or worse, they have a reason that's quite possibly untrue, like "I'll be more comfortable in rough weather").
It seems to always come back to this discussion on this site...someone says, "I have a small boat, but I really want a big one." As soon as the opportunity arises to upsize, it's taken. It seems that often the virtues of "small" are only sung while stuck with a small boat...often, not always.
Frank, for example, has bought numerous boats in the last few years, and all of them has been small! (if we total his LOA, though...oh, never mind). ;D
Head-in-the-clouds-musing-mode-off....
We as a culture believe growth is necessary, sustainability is often not considered. It is a measure of success to most.
It's all just an extension of hamburger marketing - would you like to supersize that?
For myself, the hope/plan/dream is to completely cut the cable at a point coming up in just a few years, so there won't be a house/car/mortgage/etc. to come back to.
Whether or not that remains a realistic goal only time will tell, but I'm working towards it.
I realize that the more systems onboard, the more potential breakage & repair issues involved, so I hope to maintain simplicity. And I already have the tent (with sand stakes available) for an occasional island overnight to not completely lose my land legs.
In the meantime, this place called SailFar remains a port of sanity amidst a sea of upsizing & fancifying everything.
Want a cure for 'big boat itus'?
Spend a week or two on abig boat. Crank up those BIG anchors, and hoist those heavy sails!! Hey- just dig one of those Jibs out of the forepeak and mule it up onto the bow. THEN fold up the one you just took off (of course on the bow) and lug it below.
Oh- and be very careful wherr you sail and anchor cause you need MUCH more water for tha deeper keel. Which means you are anchored much further away from the dinghy dock.
Having spent a good bit of time aboard a 38 and a 41 footer in the last year, I'll take the smaller boat in a heartbeat!!
Oh and of course don't forget the extra expenses- dockfees, haulouts etc ALL go way up with boat size.
QuoteOh- and be very careful where you sail and anchor cause you need MUCH more water for the deeper keel
;D ^^^^^^^
Couple thoughts...
"We as a culture believe growth is necessary, sustainability is often not considered. It is a measure of success to most. " -I have always thought that while graft and growth seem to get along, graft and sustainablity are mutually exclusive. Perhaps I'm a cynic, but I think our "culture" is a bit focused on less than honest ideals. (I'm in a dark mood, and full of piss and vinegar today....)
Also, Some folks are up in arms over the new berthing tax for Italy, claiming that it will make cruising in Italy too expensive... Ahh however it seems that those with boats under 10 meters can feel smug as the tax starts there and is progressive. I think this is also the case also in a few locations within the carribean. Smaller boats save money. Less fees, less bottom paint, less rigging, smaller sails etc etc. Granted we fully intend to blow any money we save by having a small boat on shoreside activities ;)
I have a friend that I talk with that has retired from off shore sailing. His last boat was a 40 footer. I have a 27 foot that I really enjoy sailing. I have been thinking about moving up to a 30 footer, but I get to thinking about starting making more payments and more cost for everything for that boat I get cold feet. But my friend keeps insisting that I have to have a 35+ footer to do any sailing that might include going to the islands. The last time he brought it up I ask him if he was willing to make the payments. I think I will keep my paid for 27 footer. That makes sense much easier to approach up grades on this one.
Quote from: jotruk on February 22, 2012, 11:56:57 AM
But my friend keeps insisting that I have to have a 35+ footer to do any sailing that might include going to the islands.
FUD, naysayer, dream killer. ???
That's why I keep bringing this stuff up...because somewhere, there's a new sailor out there with the dream that's getting it crushed by this simple untruth.
I don't have a problem with HIM choosing a 35 footer, but why does he take the extra step to say that everyone must?
It's a meme in the sailing world..."small is not as good." Maybe that's a meme in our entire culture, too.
for some reason I thought of Texas when I read that last line...
Quote from: Captain Smollett on February 22, 2012, 08:54:35 AM
The other night, I attended an organizational meeting for the local Youth Sailing Club (only in its second year). Last year, the club did very well, but over the winter, there was talk of upsizing and fancifying it.
One of the problems with expanding is over expanding ? at the moment may be lots of resources (in this case probably involving a lot of time from Members), but that may not always be the case.
If (some) folks want to expand, why not look to open "Chapters" (Hells Angel style!) - can be in the same location, but IMO better somewhere else (doesn't have to be far). The idea being that each Chapter can be self contained (and self funding!) and operated however the Members want it to, whether expanding or not, but nonetheless can share resources. If a Chapter fails, then it doesn't impact on the other(s).
To keep those who want to expand happy (and occupied!) why not get 'em to work out some formal proposals (that will get rid of half of 'em!) and then an actual business plan (will likely get rid of the rest!) or get the expansion focused on raising money, partnering with local businesses and publicity rather than the actual operations.
Just some thoughts.
FWIW have been mulling over something similar over here, except not aimed at the youth market - but at the unemployed / under-employed. Not so much about sail training (although that could be a part of it) but principally for access to cheap boating from shared ownership - the advantage that folks have with time on there hands being that they are not restricted to weekends only. The disadvantage being less money / uncertainty of income. Am thinking 20' trailor sailor sized vessels, basic fitouts and small (old) outboards - all s/h (or donated) of course and on (cheap) swinging (and drying) moorings....maybe 2 or 3 of them. - probably will come to naught!, but am thinking about it - am a great beleiver in "why not?".
FWIW I have been a member of a Yacht Club for over 30 years, and although not exactly blazer and tie brigade does seem to be more racing focused rather than the "simply messing around in boats" end of the market. But to be fair, I do only visit the club house once a year, on average!
Size is not important - it's what you do with it! (to coin a phrase).
But I think it is a bit disingenuous to not acknowledge that sometimes bigger is better.....with boats as well as for other things. Not to say that does not also come with disadvantages, which may well outweigh any pros. I settled on 30' as the ideal size for me, as meant a boat I could afford to buy and will never eat me out of house and home to run / maintain - plus is capable of going just about anywhere and liveaboard capable for extended periods (if the Skipper knew what he was doing!). If the latter was not a consideration (as a long term option) I would have got something smaller, maybe a Folkboat or (another!) 21' Corribee :). Sometimes I wish I had! - sometimes my boat is too small, sometimes too big - but mostly just right ;D. Everyone's answer is different, which is as it should be.
At 30' (boat!) I too pondered how appropriate Sailfar was for me, but I feel happy here as boat size does not seem uber important and more about also having a KISS approach (without going the full hairshirt route). I also like the approach (and thinking) of folks who have bought boats within there own budgets (no matter what size) rather than simply renting them from a bank. But I do have a hang up on being beholden to others.
To my mind Sailfar simply says / acknowledges the reality that folk don't need 35 / 40 / 50 foot of boat nor budgets with several Yikes! on the end of the numbers.....not to say that in certain circumstances that those would not be nice!, but that not the same as need. Knowledge can replace cash. The reverse is not always true! (no matter what the brochure / salesman says!).
Sailfar! - Vive La Difference!
Just to sum up...
Small boats are Good. (And their owners are Virtuous.)
Big boats are Bad. (And their owners are Evil.)
;D
I know happy big boaters. I know unhappy big boaters.
I know happy small boaters. I know unhappy small boaters.
I often (and I mean often) think about the
next sailboat. Frankly, I like the layout of my Seafarer 24. Dinette to port, galley to starboard. Head, v-berth forward. Quarter berth (err...quarter storage are) starboard aft. Based on that beginning, I feel the ideal boat for me would be similar, but a few feet longer (and maybe a little wider) so...
- The forward v-berth would be able to be a couple inches longer in length, with the pointy end being maybe double in width...this would make a huge difference when sleeping forward.
- The head would be able to be enclosed instead of just semi-enclosed. Call me repressed if you wish; but there are some things I don't want to be witnessed doing. The same things, coincidentally, I don't want to witness others doing.
- I'd be able to stand up straight throughout the main cabin. I just need two more inches of headroom!
- The dinette wouldn't be directly under the companionway. Life is better when it is dry below decks. Rain on the dinette cushions (where I usually sleep...see the pointy forepeak comment above) sucks more than a little.
Same layout, spread out. THAT would be perfect (and seems to be what might be available in a Tartan 27, Cal 2-29, and others...hmmm).
The point being that there are points of comfort. My Seafarer might be with me a long time (I am reluctant to spend a lot of money on a replacement at the expense of having to work for 2,5 or 10 extra years before heading out). I figure it is right at my Base Comfort Level. I wouldn't want to go any smaller given my current mission. However, a few extra feet could add significantly to my comfort (I'm not a small man); but not impact complexity, or for the most part, layout, at all (or at least not much). I do lust after a boat where I don't have to squeeze myself into certain parts. This revised spec is what I currently consider my Ideal Comfort Level.
My mission statement is currently inshore (Chesapeake...how to qualify) to coastal sailing. If offshore passage-making became the goal, I would be much more likely (though no guarantees) to change. Still, seaworthiness in a small hull is not rare.
I give, however, no derision to those who prefer bigger. If it makes them feel more confident, more power to them. Perhaps they have a smaller threshold of discomfort? No one wants to be miserable (more than once I've heard the argument that "I don't want to feel like I'm camping." Fair enough.). Even if it is an ego thing, that is their call. I like big boats, too. I just don't want to deal with the hassle and expense of owning one.
Quote from: Godot on February 23, 2012, 05:49:28 PM
I know happy big boaters. I know unhappy big boaters.
I know happy small boaters. I know unhappy small boaters.
...
An excellent post, Adam. Thank-you, and grog.
One point, though (not that I disagree, but that I want to clarify):
Quote
I give, however, no derision to those who prefer bigger. If it makes them feel more confident, more power to them. Perhaps they have a smaller threshold of discomfort? No one wants to be miserable
I give no derision, either, contrary to how I might seem to think based on posts here.
But I do think that it is worth emphasizing that bigger does not always = more comfort.
On one particular, very specific point - comfort at sea, in a seaway - the "meme" exists that bigger = more comfort. I can name a dozen boats or so boats under 30 ft that are at least as, if not more so, comfortable in "trying conditions" than boats 50 or 60% bigger.
THAT's my caveat...that some people make a decision to purchase a "voyaging" boat based on what they've read (that LOA is the deciding factor) or been told and it goes unchallenged.
Then, the reality of an inferior hull design sets in and NEVER gets proper blame.
Its the "deception" that bothers me, though I am not saying that I think it's intentional. I just cannot think of a better term. The assumption that LOA = comfort by ALL definitions of the word comfort is my problem.
I have one other one, too...the very notion that one boat is good at all things.
If you (rhetorical you....) want a coastal cruiser and know the 'criteria' that make a good one, the trade-offs you can accept, that's a BIG step toward finding a boat you will enjoy.
But...what of the noobs, or those that have 'drunk the Kool Aid,' who read that the Whiz-Bang 45 is a great boat but miss the fine print that says "for sitting at the dock and entertaining friends but not for crossing even moderately big water if rough conditions are possible"?
This misinformation is part of the grander dream killing process. It's a form of 'naysaying,' or at least it seems so to me.
So, I don't disagree with a word of your message...I'm just expanding on the idea that you presented.
There are always exceptions. Large, lightly built boats might have more motion than small, heavy boats. Racing boats with no interior to speak of will almost always be less comfortable as a place to lounge than a cruising boat, no matter the size. But, given two boats with similar missions, the majority of the time the larger boat will be more comfortable at sea, and almost always more comfortable at anchor when used as a home instead of a vehicle.
When purchasing a boat the decision has to be made what is the minimum amount of comfort that is acceptable when at rest, and while underway. While at rest, my personal minimum standards are pretty basic, while my desired standards are to just have a boat that fits my person without feeling compressed (too small bunks, heads, and headroom). Underway I just assume I'm going to be uncomfortable and will welcome the days when things are pleasant as a bonus. So long as seasickness isn't a long term problem (I've rarely gotten seasick, and never on a sailboat under 35'...the quicker motion must agree with me), and the motion doesn't reach the point of being unreasonably dangerous, I'm more or less happy.
However, a great many people WANT the bigger size and have no interest in being in a boat little bigger than a bathroom. So be it. If they enjoy their 50 footer, even if it never leaves the dock, then good for them.
Sadly, of course, a great many people DO buy into the hype and overbuy. Houses, cars, boats, vacations...I see well off unhappy people doing whatever they can to buy happiness which is sad and usually unsuccessful. What is sadder is when folks who AREN'T well off buy into the bigger is better and spend so much that they actually make their lives more stressful and less happy.
There's room out there for all of us.
Quote from: Godot on February 23, 2012, 06:59:26 PM
There's room out there for all of us.
Adam,
Those eight words pretty much sum it up for me. Nice phrasing.
For those who want to cross oceans, there are a number of good arguments for bigger boats than those in the 18- to 28-foot range, based on the speed-to-waterline factor and the wavelengths of ocean waves. But I would think that most of who frequent this board would agree that if you get too big, too expensive and too gadget-ridden, you lose touch with the elements of the ocean, the feelings of closeness to nature and the feelings of freedom that make KISS boating so appealing.
Still, I think I'd rather cross the Atlantic, for example, in a boat slightly larger than the full-keel, (relatively) heavy-displacement 25-footer that I own and love, even though I'm sure the boat could make it--though I'm not always sure that I could.
I don't think there should be any hard-and-fast limit on LOA for membership in "SailFar," but I suspect that those who enjoy the larger boats would not be interested in frequenting this board. More power to them, I guess.
--Joe
Quote from: Godot on February 23, 2012, 06:59:26 PM
Sadly, of course, a great many people DO buy into the hype and overbuy. Houses, cars, boats, vacations...I see well off unhappy people doing whatever they can to buy happiness which is sad and usually unsuccessful. What is sadder is when folks who AREN'T well off buy into the bigger is better and spend so much that they actually make their lives more stressful and less happy.
This is the point I've been trying to get to.,,you've said it better than I have.
Spent an afternoon last year with James Baldwin, and of course we talked boats. We both agreed that a boat around the size of a Triton, was just about perfect for one, slightly cramped for two. I've owned a 35 footer, and sailed aboard quite a few big boats , including crewing on a 50 foot on deck schooner.
Bigger boats, over say 30-32 feet, start having more drawbacks (for ME) than they are worth. Aboard Tehani, Laura and I both, or either one, can get the anchors up, with no winches. Hoist sails, with no winches. Kedge ourselves off a grounding, with no outside help. The 38 footer I just did the delivery on had a 44 pound Bruce anchor and 3/8 inch chain! A real bear to break out and hoist, especially all loaded with mud! Our 22 pounder can be done by hand.
Now understand also- length isn't the real total criteria here- DISPLACEMENT is very important in an ocean going boat. Coastal it isn't so important.
Also there's the size of crew- not number- physical size. I've had a 250 pound, 6'4" man aboard Tehani and she gets real small, REAL fast ;D As to Lin and Larry-they are both smalll people so smaller boats work for them. I'm not a large person, and Laura is tiny, so we needed less room. Makes a HUGE difference.
Quote from: CharlieJ on February 23, 2012, 09:03:34 PM
Also there's the size of crew- not number- physical size. I've had a 250 pound, 6'4" man aboard Tehani and she gets real small, REAL fast ;D As to Lin and Larry-they are both smalll people so smaller boats work for them. I'm not a large person, and Laura is tiny, so we needed less room. Makes a HUGE difference.
I`m 5`8" ...makes life a litlle easier on a smaller boat.
I`ve always choose smaller boats for ease of handling/lower maintenance cost/ etc...and also as strange as it may seem for the slight discomfort. ???
Thru the years I have learned that if I get too comfortable I become lazy. If I`m at that perfect compromise of comfort/discomfort then I`m more active. Dont get me wrong I like a comfy place to sit and sleep, but do not like too many luxuries. I once slept on an air mattress and owned one chair in my apartment for over a year(on purpose not poor) and was in the best shape in my life. Granted that this is not great for the social life, but I still did ok ;D
Quote from: Captain Smollett on February 23, 2012, 09:02:08 PM
Quote from: Godot on February 23, 2012, 06:59:26 PM
Sadly, of course, a great many people DO buy into the hype and overbuy. Houses, cars, boats, vacations...I see well off unhappy people doing whatever they can to buy happiness which is sad and usually unsuccessful. What is sadder is when folks who AREN'T well off buy into the bigger is better and spend so much that they actually make their lives more stressful and less happy.
This is the point I've been trying to get to.,,you've said it better than I have.
I was recently given 12 years worth of Good Old boat magazine, and just this morning, was reading an article by Dave Martin, decrying this exact thing. The hype and drum beating that " you NEED a 45 footer to safely cruise"
Article was from 2008!
Quote from: Chattcatdaddy on February 23, 2012, 09:43:00 PM
I`m 5`8" ...makes life a litlle easier on a smaller boat.
I`ve always choose smaller boats for ease of handling/lower maintenance cost/ etc...and also as strange as it may seem for the slight discomfort.
Keith,
You've got the perfect boat! I'm 5'6", and my 25D is just right; your Ariel is essentially the same Alberg-designed beauty.
Enjoy yourself--you deserve it!
--Joe
In the discussions with Porter about his search for possible boats, and (I got the impression) that he wanted to be conservative about size and cost, and was interested in trailer-ability, it seemed like the line between small and big, economical and more expensive, was more sharply drawn than the question in general. And after posting a reply to him, my concern that I may not have fully conveyed the substantial difference between the boats we were discussing in the 25-foot range and the Cape Dory 27, especially if the plan is to trailer (and possibly launch/haul/rig) the boat on ones own.
Also, part of that discussion was making recommendations to someone that is getting into sailing, and sharing the experience of getting a boat that was too large and expensive for my (our) needs at the time--and that once you have been sailing for years or decades, it is easier to make that judgement and to balance cost and size with experience.
I have met a new potential sailing pal and she asked to see one of the boats and so I showed her the Centaur on its trailer.
The next day I received an email from her. She was excited to go sailing and declared That was fun climbing up onto the Centaur...What a huge sailboat!
Oh well... ;D
Greetings, Jim_ME in particular,
Your answer was one part of the understanding I have come to about what kind of a boat we're after. You and others here have been very helpful.
Although the CD27 we saw was a real charmer, it is pretty clear standing next to it that it is on the "too big" side. We saw a CD26 at the same time that was by comparison just maybe "not too big."
Putting a lot of emphasis on standing headroom moves things to the 24' LOA range and up, which puts a real strain on the trailerability aspect. We want to move around in the boat--and we want to move the boat around too!
So maybe you can tell when small begins to happen because of what you have to give up. If you have to give up something an unarguably big boat allows, then you have a small boat. It works in the other direction too.
I am holding out for an Alberg 22, just as soon as I get my wife into one and she gives me the OK. But I did see a picture of a Rhodes Meridian on a single axle trailer being pulled by an Oldsmobile. It looked easy. So I'm telling myself that or an Ariel is my fallback (or fall-up?) position.
Porter
Thanks, Porter, Glad to be able to help.
The CD 27 is a beautiful boat (as Joe said, and perhaps others). If my goal was to go larger and yet be able to trailer locally to a yard and have them lift it off my trailer, launch, step the mast and then haul with travel lift, unstep the mast, and then trailer home myself--I would definitely be on my short list. (Also a Bristol 27)
I just saw a boat that may be worth considering, but I will post on your boat search thread...
I'm on the bigger side... 5'11" tall, just over 220 lbs. built more like a football linebacker than anything else (unless it's the caber-toss guy from the highland games). As a result, I need a bit of space, and so many boats in the smaller size range present real problems for me below decks. Bristol 27s presented less space than I was comfortable with, for instance. The cramped forepeak meant that I could never even get into the vee-berth at all, while the Bristol 24s had enough space to accomplish that task.
For me, the 28 to 32 LOA represents enough space to turn around, get comfortable in. On the other hand, so many of the more "modern" models seem to have been designed so that someone could roller skate around in the main salon!
There are a wealth of workable older boats out there though. It seems like a good time to buy one (ahem, Porter).
Quote from: Godot on February 23, 2012, 05:49:28 PMI often (and I mean often) think about the next sailboat. Frankly, I like the layout of my Seafarer 24. Dinette to port, galley to starboard. Head, v-berth forward. Quarter berth (err...quarter storage are) starboard aft. Based on that beginning, I feel the ideal boat for me would be similar, but a few feet longer (and maybe a little wider) so...
My first keelboat was also a Seafarer 24 (1974 Futura-decked model). I am 5'10" tall and that is the max headroom of this boat. Rubbing my head drove me nuts. It would be fine for a second boat that I didn't intend to live aboard (in other words, I'd buy another one in a heartbeat). I looked long and hard before buying this boat, as I am picky about interiors.
You might be interested in the Seafarer 29 ( http://sarasota.craigslist.org/boa/2839304301.html ) or, if you could find one, the very rare Seafarer 31 MKII. These have similar layouts but more headroom and are more spread out.
Also, many Cal boats have a similar interior, which is exactly why I bought my '74 Cal Cruising 35. It's like the Seafarer 24 on a much larger scale, plus a chart table tossed in. They also have excellent build quality and sailing characteristics.
I know this is an old thread, but I didn't want to clutter things by starting a new one.
When I first thought about living on a boat, I was in my mid-teens, and everyone told me that I needed to have a big boat to do it. Unfortunately, that meant being extremely rich. Even the Luger kit boats were out of my range. (Remember those from the mid to later 70's?)
When I went to a big boat sales lot in Phoenix (big by Arizona standards), they told me the same thing. I looked at the biggest 2 sailboats they had anyway, one was a a 26' and the other a 28', and neither had headroom over 5'. Since I'm 6', that would have been cramped to live in.
Then, I looked at a lot of boat plans because I figured that the only way to be able to have my "dream boat" that I could live on was to build it a little at a time as I could afford to put money into it. I bought a few study plans, but I realized that I didn't have anywhere to build one anyway.
Well, life came along, and my dreams went on the back burner. Finally I did buy a place of my own, and the first thing I thought of was building a boat. Yes, it was kind of silly trying to build one in the Arizona mountains, but I never lost the boat dream. My wife did have something to say about it though...She said forget it!
But I couldn't. I just hid the dream away again. I did read a lot of boating magazines, and they basically were all part of the Big Boat-Big Debt crowd, except for one that I came across, Small Boat Journal. That got me thinking about small boat cruising and the KISS principle, especially when I read about Sven Yrvind and Bris.
Then, I knew it was possible, and I had hope again. No money, but a lot of hope!
Jump forward about 15 years, and I finally got my 22' boat, only to have it stolen, and then get it back again (but that's another story).
I have found that there are still a lot of prejudices against small "pocket cruisers" in the cruising community at large, but most of them seem to always be trying to justify spending so much money on so-called safety, comfort and seaworthiness. They can't stand it when someone else can go to the same places as they do on a small boat without spending a fortune.
They try to discount us as being too risky, and claiming that we are being a danger to everyone else by putting our possible rescuers in danger. It seems to me that it's the big boats that are always calling for help, not the self-sufficient small boaters!
Speaking of spending a fortune, here's a blog where the guy is talking about the upgrades to his 53' boat to get it ready for "offshore" cruising;
http://www.theseaissalt.com/time-money/
His life raft was more than my boat! Yikes! :o
I'm glad that I finally did find out that the dream could happen with a small boat, and without having to have a fortune to do it!
Excellent post. Have a grog.
Your story of the evolution of your thinking on this closely mirrors my own. For years, I read SAIL magazine.
My thoughts of anything bigger than a day sailor/weekender began in earnest when my wife and I talked, almost jokingly at first, about sailing to Ireland. So, I began looking more carefully at "what it would take."
I soon got VERY discouraged. The boats "they" said I would need for such a trip, US East Coast to Ireland, would cost more than I had and I did not want a "second mortgage" kind of deal. The price tags on the boats exceeded that of our house.
A "cruising boat" was not going to happen.
Next, I turned to boat plans and began looking at designs by George Beuhler, Ken Hankinson and a few others. I realized 10 years to built a boat, THEN learn to sail her and still have to outfit her was also not in the cards...it just all seemed so beyond reach.
It was the Pardey's that tickled the right nerve that got me thinking "there is another way." I'm not sure which came first, my reading of the Pardey's "Cost Conscious Cruiser" or Hiscock's "Voyaging Under Sail." HIscock's book impressed upon me a lot of DIY solutions vs store bought solutions, and the Pardey's provided not only "encouragement" to go simple, but also good analysis as to why it makes sense and ways to implement KISS.
And, then, in 2005, a dude I knew in Myrtle Beach started this counter-culture web site called sailfar.net, and well... ;D
I have learned SO MUCH from so many people here. I can truly say that the community here has been beyond inspirational.
The "naysayer" thread stands as a stark reminder to what we have all heard, what we have all had to endure for not buying the opinionated dogma in the 'sailing community."
Hey- I know that dude- drinks a lot, and tends to prevaricate about others drinking HIS rum ;D
Ya know, I got a whole lotta miles in the wake, on a SMALL 25 footer!! Never felt under boated.
In the begining I could not stop but think if there would be a better boat for us. I have the benefit of owning 3 different size boats and know/think that the size of boat should depend on what type of sailing you do. The Chrysler 22 was perfect for lake sailing and I would have sailed the coast with it, if it wasn't for naysayers. I still miss how fun the 22 was not only to sail but to hangout on even if I couldn't stand in it.
The Chrysler 26 did make a great coastal sailor and as simple as it was I would have been happy with it as our liveaboard boat. To make the 1st mate happy (rule #1) I aggreed to go bigger, but not complicated. Our 32 is still small compaired to alot of the boats I work on and far less complicated. Being around different size boats all the time now makes me know we have the right boat, anything bigger more complicated and I don't think we would still be out here.
I can't help but laugh at some of the people with big boats that can't handle them or just leave them in the slip because its a little rough out there.
guess in a nut shell, smaller/simple seems more practical and only after years of sailing.
I think that if I was going to live aboard full-time, I would probably have to consider something a little larger, possibly a boat like Annie Hill's Badger.
With me, my wife, and 2 dogs, a 22' boat would be a cramped home. We would need a proper poop-deck for full-time living.
I like the idea of a junk rig though. Very simple and cheap to maintain. I would like to go that route on my Nomad, but I don't want to lose the interior space by having a mast through the cabin. Maybe, if I could make a deck-stepped tabernacle that had a solid through-bolted platform. Possibly braced around the hull...
Quote from: Travelnik on May 02, 2013, 02:54:56 PM
I would probably have to consider something a little larger, possibly a boat like Annie Hill's Badger.
And to emphasize Annie Hill's relevance to this site ...
Voyaging on a Small Income, by Annie Hill (http://www.amazon.com/Voyaging-Small-Income-Annie-Hill/dp/1888671378/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1367524982&sr=1-1)
I've had a 23 Oday, lived on a Hunter 25.5 for a year And now live on a 31 Bombay Clipper 3
+ yrs. For me and a friend it is perfect for Coastal cruising but is a little crowded when the kids are aboard. Like Mario it is as big as I want. Oh and I am 6'3" And truthfully I sailed the 23 Oday more often. All very simple boats and that's the way I like them.
Quote from: Travelnik on May 02, 2013, 02:54:56 PM
With me, my wife, and 2 dogs, a 22' boat would be a cramped home.
and
Quote from: Wade on May 02, 2013, 04:58:51 PM
31 Bombay Clipper 3 ... is a little crowded when the kids are aboard.
We were 2 adults, 2 children and a cat on an Alberg 30 for three years.
The children are all but begging to move back aboard the boat.
;D ;D
Quote from: Captain Smollett on May 02, 2013, 07:49:17 PM
Quote from: Travelnik on May 02, 2013, 02:54:56 PM
With me, my wife, and 2 dogs, a 22' boat would be a cramped home.
and
Quote from: Wade on May 02, 2013, 04:58:51 PM
31 Bombay Clipper 3 ... is a little crowded when the kids are aboard.
We were 2 adults, 2 children and a cat on an Alberg 30 for three years.
The children are all but begging to move back aboard the boat.
;D ;D
I wanted to raise my kids on a boat too, but my wife wouldn't go for it.
Now that they're adults, both of my kids tell me that they wish we would have done things my way. :(
Oh well, now they will just have to find their own way to see the world.
A Sailfar boat, IMO, is the result of a decision about which you want more: the freedom to cruise anywhere, anytime as long as health allows or all the comforts of home afloat.
I turned 64 last month. I'm single and debt free and have a modest retirement income. My 1979 Watkins 27 is the smallest of the four sailboats I've owned over the past 30 years. I believe I could singlehand her anywhere in the world I wanted to go when properly outfitted and prepared. That makes her a nearly perfect boat for me. YMMV :)
Quote from: OldPelican on May 03, 2013, 01:23:40 PM
My 1979 Watkins 27 is the smallest of the four sailboats I've owned over the past 30 years. I believe I could singlehand her anywhere in the world I wanted to go when properly outfitted and prepared. That makes her a nearly perfect boat for me. YMMV :)
Do you have pictures of her interior? My friend David Grimm (GrimE), who posts here sometimes, and his wife, just bought a Watkins 27 and the interior has been "worked over" They'd dearly love seeing pics of the interior as it should be.
Getting the smallest, simplest boat you'll be happy with makes a lot of sense. You have a much better chance of being able to afford cruising in it for longer periods of time, and less of that time will be spent fixing it up! Other bits are handy, too. A smaller boat is much easier to kedge off or maneuver at dockside by hand. Sails are more easily handled. The whole boat is more easily single-handed, etc.
Quote from: CharlieJ on May 03, 2013, 01:50:50 PM
Quote from: OldPelican on May 03, 2013, 01:23:40 PM
My 1979 Watkins 27 is the smallest of the four sailboats I've owned over the past 30 years. I believe I could singlehand her anywhere in the world I wanted to go when properly outfitted and prepared. That makes her a nearly perfect boat for me. YMMV :)
Do you have pictures of her interior? My friend David Grimm (GrimE), who posts here sometimes, and his wife, just bought a Watkins 27 and the interior has been "worked over" They'd dearly love seeing pics of the interior as it should be.
My interior is not ready for its close up yet but You casn find many pix on sailingtexas in the gallery for Watkins boats.