The recent posts by NOHM and NORTHOCEANBEACH about being inexperienced and heading off to sea has drawn multiple responces with very good heart felt advice. It is SO true that there is simply no substitute for experience! IMHO, the time to learn how to tuck a reef in your main is NOT your 1st time in breaking seas. All boats heave-to differently. The time to learn is not the 1st time you need a break. I strongly believe that! I've been terrified 'out there', I've made many many mistakes. But....as I read the responces and think of suggestions I could ad....I remember Tadhg.
Tadhg is a young Irishman that I befriended years ago in Bahamas. He sailed in as on a chaps boat from the USA that wanted crew for the couple of days to get from USA to the Abacos. That couple of days was the sum total of Tadhg's sailing experience. He "jumped ship" and hung out for a while until a chance came up to aquire an old 1960's 29fter. She was a sound design, in tuff shape having sat neglected for years, but he got her moved and over the coarse of time on a near zero budget, got her somewhat seaworthy. (several repairs were done 'on the cheap'...but seem to have worked). Tadhg talked and drempt about heading south through the Carribean. He had visions of ferrying backpackers from Panama to Venesaula for income. The joke then became "when are you leaving?" as well as "when are you going to learn how to sail?" He only ventured as far as Marsh Harbour once or twice (about 30 knm rd trip) and rarely moved the boat. We all suggested he go out on windy days to "learn what to do" so he won't be overwhelmed when/if he did leave. I left to go home...returning the next fall to see the boat still at the mooring. Tadhg's trip was kind of the inside joke as we all had odds on him never going. Then one morning, without any warning or fanfare....the boat was gone! He made it all through the Carribean to South Amarica and played around doing what he could to make enuff to keep the dream alive. A year passed with him gone. Around early Feb. this year...in sails Tadhg!! Along with him was a sweet Irish lass. When I left to come home, they had plans of sailing off to Ireland!! She wasn't sure how she would be out in the big stuff, so the plan was a flight from the Azores if she couldn't take it. As I peck this out, I realize I should contact them for an update.
My point for sharing the story is YES...I fully believe that experience IS needed to go to the open sea. That many skills should first be aquired and a comfort level should be obtained doing all the basics long before heading offshore.
But gentlemen, I caution you (and I) not to intimidate too much. Yes...you are correct in ALL that you (I) say. Just remember....Tadhg proved us wrong. So did Shane Atkin on Shrimpy, Taina Abie, Robert Lee Graham and a very long list of others. ;)
Quote from: Frank on April 30, 2013, 09:38:35 AM
Tadhg proved us wrong. So did Shane Atkin on Shrimpy, Taina Abie, Robert Lee Graham and a very long list of others. ;)
Wonderful story, Frank. But...I submit that in one sense, your story proves the point we were all making. Tadhg may not have been "sailing" for those down years, but he was learning...and it WAS "mental preparation." He did not just buy a boat he thought was ready, hop on and go completely without experience.
Others have done just that, of course. Tania Aebi is a good example...no trials on the boat, little experience, etc, etc. But, she herself cautions others not do it this way, if I recall correctly.
To me, it boils down to "statistics." What path is most likely to succeed, vs what path has the higher likelihood of failure. There are a lot of folks that "just take off" unprepared or with the wrong boat that give up the dream.
As Godot said, one merely needs to look at the number of boats in far away ports that are for sale after one passage. Dreams killed due not to bad boats, lack of experience but, I would say....incorrect expectations.
The last thing I want to be is a dream killer. Therefore, I wish merely to make the expectations more realistic. Not to tell someone "don't go" but to tell them "reality is different than your expectation" in the hope that the expectation realigns. I hope that makes sense.
When someone says, "I know how to tack and gybe, what else is there," I think "there's a LOT of else." One can learn on the go with a high probability of failure (giving up the dream because reality did not meet expectations, or worse) or one can be patience and learn a little first with a higher probability of getting out of the adventure what one hoped.
Tadhg is an exception; most folks don't keep going if they face some hardship they did not see coming.
But, at the end of the day...you are 100% correct. People do this sort of thing for a lot of reasons and with a lot of goals in mind. Good on 'em. I earnestly hope my word never, ever are taken as trying to talk someone out of 'going.'
PS: Who said anything to NORTHOCEANBEACH about going/not going? I thought his post was more about figuring out which gear suits him best.
I "KNOW" for a fact that you are the last to hold anyone back!! I put NORTHOCEANBEACH in there as a 'newbie' looking for advice.
How do you tell someone that a time will come when they will feel like they are in a washing machine set on "get the dirt outta there" cycle with both a visual and sound outside that could only be discribed as violent! I fully understand that to keep on going, it is best to 'grow into' those situations and not be thrown into them. That would be a dream killer for sure !
As I said....I agree with the advice...GREAT advice... that is being posted and only bring up the counter point as a topic for disscussion.
Keep up the good stuff!!!!!
Quote from: Frank on April 30, 2013, 10:24:21 AM
only bring up the counter point as a topic for disscussion.
And the more I think about it, the more I agree that this "meta discussion" is as important as the "advice" given itself.
There are several problems with trying to tell someone 'expectations.' One is that they won't believe you. Whether sailing, climbing, hiking, woodworking, whatever. Some folks think you are just being dramatic. Sometimes, I guess, that's too true.
I can only answer this kind of thing very personally, and it goes much deeper than "sailing." The key question for me, personally, is can I be in scary situations (defined in a moment) without panicking? Can I 'trust the boat' not to capsize when the wind blows her over to 50+ degrees...for example?
For me personally, I can only answer that kind of question by testing myself. I've been in enough 'scary situations' in my life to know how I react under that kind of stress....most of the time. Still, it's always an unknown I am not comfortable thinking about..."what if I panic" is one my own personal scariest thoughts/fears.
So, what do I call a "scary situation"? We of the S/V
Gaelic Sea have a saying..."Use Makes Master." What is scary to us today is less so tomorrow, the next time we face it. I know sailors that freeze in abject panic if the wind is more than 15 knots; I know others that think sailing in 40 knots is "comfortable."
What is 'scary' is personal and non-static. Different folks have different thresholds for danger (real and imagined) and different thresholds for fear.
So, when a person posts on the Internet a generic question about sailing in an environment they have never encountered before, I think the natural response is to assume (a) they don't fully understand the kinds of conditions they should expect and (b) their comfort level with danger/fear may well be quite low.
I am trying to separate real danger from emotional fear in the discussion because they are often very different. Sometimes we have fear when the danger is very, very real. Other times, there is fear with no real danger. A boat heeling at 20 degrees is not typically dangerous, but I sure have seen the look of terror on newbie sailors' faces in those conditions.
The opposite of "fear" is confidence...in this example, confidence that the heeling boat won't capsize. It takes time to work up that trust, but "use makes master." Most people I've taken sailing "for the first time," take a while to build that trust and gain that confidence. Once they do, the fear is gone.
They have gained "experience." They have experienced that the boat won't capsize just because she's heeling 20 degrees.
So, I look at that example and I think, "okay, now multiply that by the 10,000 things I have not learned to trust on the boat yet" and my mind reels. It makes ME want to experience as much of them, or close models, as I can before committing myself.
Maybe, the best way to answer these kinds of "judgment" questions is to say..."Here's what *I* would do" rather than "what you should do."
*I* would not (did not) buy a boat and the first day jump aboard and try to sail across an ocean. Then again, I have crew that trust me to make the decisions for them, so my perspective is different. Even BE (Before Ensigns), my wife sailed with me, and when we first started talking about crossing the Atlantic for adventure (before we owned our first sail boat), we just had a sense...that for *US*, it would take years to be ready to do that.
That's okay, though...those years of preparatory sailing and learning and gaining experience have been extremely rich in life's experiences and adventures of their own. We have explored "far off shores" without leaving the sight of land; we have anchored in remote locations, far from other humans.
I can truly say that I will have no regrets if I never cross an ocean on my own small sail boat. The journey is the thing....and we have been having quite a journey.
{Musing Mode Off} ;)
I'm not one to try to stifle dreams. No matter how wild they are. Those dreams are what make the workaday world bearable.
On the other hand, I also don't want to read about one more "unprepared sailor" that the search and rescue teams had to risk their lives trying to find.
To me, announcing that you're going to cross an ocean with no more than maybe a close brush with knowledge is like announcing that you're going to cross a busy street without looking both directions first. Sure, you might make it, but the odds are that you won't.
And then there's the cost.... was an "unprepared sailors" life worth saving at the cost of a trained, prepared SAR team member?
Is it the responsibility of the rest of the citizens of the country who sent the SAR to pay for the "unprepared sailors" lack of knowledge and experience?
In Tania Abei's day, there were no EPIRBS. VHF and SSB, yes, but for the most part, once you left your country's home waters, you were on your own.
You couldn't call 911 and get a ride to the emergency room because you had a canker sore.
There is a great story on Sailing Anarchy about a pretty darn good sailor named Ronnie Simpson who raced a borrowed boat in the Singlehanded TransPac a year or two ago. On the return trip with a friend, the fin keel fell off - 800 miles from San Francisco. He and his friend made it back without outside assistance aside from getting more fuel from a passing ship.
Contrast that with another couple, also mentioned on SA, who got airlifted not once, but twice, because twice their prop either fell off or was damaged (I don't remember the exact details).
And then there are guys like Webb Chiles.
In his 70's, on his 4th(?) solo circumnavigation - no EPIRB. No plans to call for help if things go south.
Why?
Because, as he quotes himself in a foreword to one of his books:
"Live passionately, even if it kills you. Because something is going to kill you anyway.".
All TRUE! Reading your post reminded me of reading about the OSTAR years ago. I forget if it was Hasler or Chichester...but when asked what they would do if, while out there, their boat was sinking. The responce was ""I have resolved to drown like a gentleman". Nuff said.
Hasler
http://www.angelfire.com/or/petermarsh/ostar.htm
He defined the prospective race as follows: "A sporting event to encourage the development of boats, gear, supplies and technique for single-handed passages under sail." There was a dramatic lack of rules?no handicaps, no compulsory equipment, no marks to round. When asked about safety and the need to carry a radio transmitter, Hasler merely replied "It would be more seemly to drown like a gentleman."
I like to think I wasn't judging; but throwing out a fair warning. It would be irresponsible, in my eye, to just say "you know how to tack, good enough for me!" I just went through this a couple months ago with the buyer of Godot. Someone once told him that sailing was easy and the best way to learn was by learning on the way.
Well, sailing is easy, and it can be learned on the way. It's been done many times. As I recall, Nick Jaffe just had a couple classes under his belt when he took off for his trip. Tania Abaei had spent time sailing with her family before hand, including across oceans as I recall, but was apparently not the best of students (ah, teenagers) and really didn't start paying attention until the day she took off (without so much as a sea trial).
But, on the other hand, we've had a few people cross our forum with big plans who quit shortly after starting. I remember one gal who was going to make a circumnavigation attempt in a Flicka, as she ended up quiting after some difficulty on her first leg. What ever happened to the guy in the pink Triton who was planning on a non-stop speed record? I'm going to guess that the fantasy was no match for reality.
If someone shows up here I have no interest in squashing dreams or being one of those "you can't do it" people. On the other hand, I can't, in good conscience, just yell "go for it" when it is clear that the person is completely unprepared. The way I figure it, pretty much anybody can do a major trip; but there needs to be a realistic set of expectations of knowledge and skills. I make no claims about being massively experienced, or even being more than an average sailor. But I know what I know, and I have a pretty good idea what I don't know. I just wanted to give the guy an understanding that there is a lot that he doesn't know.
</defensive mode>
I didn't get the impression that anyone was judging, preaching, or really nay saying. There was no bashing any dreams, or anything like that.
To me, everyone here was showing a genuine concern.
The community here is much friendlier than CF or SA. (I know that's a big generalization.)
Small Boats, Big Hearts?
"breath in....breath out..." I just tried to change the name to "Who's to say" . All the advice given here has been exellent!! None was judgemental in ANY WAY!!
I REPEAT...NONE WAS JUDGEMENTAL!!!
I was just hoping to get a exchange going on how so many have gone...and made it! Even the 13ft tinkerbelle made it across the atlantic with the skipper only doing some lake sailing before hand (by failing memory) I agree with all that was said. Heh...guess I succeeded in getting a discussion going :o
911...would a MOD more technically gifted than I please change the wording to "who's to say"
Quote from: Frank on April 30, 2013, 06:20:50 PM
"breath in....breath out..." I just tried to change the name to "Who's to say" . All the advice given here has been exellent!! None was judgemental in ANY WAY!!
I REPEAT...NONE WAS JUDGEMENTAL!!!
I was just hoping to get a exchange going on how so many have gone...and made it! Even the 13ft tinkerbelle made it across the atlantic with the skipper only doing some lake sailing before hand (by failing memory) I agree with all that was said. Heh...guess I succeeded in getting a discussion going :o
911...would a MOD more technically gifted than I please change the wording to "who's to say"
Meta to the meta,,,
Each post's subject line has to be changed individually. I changed mine and yours. The others can change their if they wish, but not real need to.
FWIW, I think it's a good discussion to have.
Quote from: Frank on April 30, 2013, 12:57:59 PM
All TRUE! Reading your post reminded me of reading about the OSTAR years ago. I forget if it was Hasler or Chichester...but when asked what they would do if, while out there, their boat was sinking. The responce was ""I have resolved to drown like a gentleman". Nuff said.
Hasler
John you are still mainly responsible for sherry and I moving/living aboard. Its been 2 1/2 years now and so I don't remember what our first expectations where, but we are still out here learning as we go. We elected to learn from others and still we have dealt with some discomforts along the way that I don't think anything but experience could make us understand.
I understand this is a hard topic, wanting to give realistic expectations without killing dreams.
I've been impressed with the responses to my post so far. Don't forget that some of the new people, at least myself, aren't totally new. This is my third boat, although I didn't have the others long based on a weird temporary mooring system in Hawai'i. I am also doing alot this summer. I'm leaving tomorrow to start my first big 'cruise' . I'm leaving to the San Juan Islands, and then up as far as I feel into Canada. I'm hoping to learn alot of skills that apply to offshore sailing along the way this summer. I'm pouring through books, practicing things like reefing out in the bay even when it's light.
So, not to make this post about me, but perhaps others are the same, I know alot aren't, but I would just give the best advice you can based on what limited knowledge you can gain from someone from a post.
I would think that the less experienced are also less likely to make the dream a reality, where the ones doing preparation, even like an above poster said, mental preparation are more likely to do it.
It's just a balance for everyone. Except for a select few, probably raised in sailing families, we have to balance cost and time. I could get x boat now and learn all I can to make it as capable as possible, or I could save up for boat y, and risk life getting in the way.
Quote from: northoceanbeach on May 01, 2013, 12:44:15 PM
I'm leaving tomorrow to start my first big 'cruise' . I'm leaving to the San Juan Islands, and then up as far as I feel into Canada.
Excellent! Have fun!
Quote
I'm hoping to learn alot of skills that apply to offshore sailing along the way this summer. I'm pouring through books, practicing things like reefing out in the bay even when it's light.
Very cool.
Every moment aboard is "preparation."
Every single moment
Anyone who goes to sea without experience is a fool;
Which any one who has experience has already proven himself to be.
::)
Quote from: Vega1860 on May 04, 2013, 04:53:37 PM
Anyone who goes to sea without experience is a fool;
Which any one who has experience has already proven himself to be.
::)
more grog !!!
Quote from: Vega1860 on May 04, 2013, 04:53:37 PM
Anyone who goes to sea without experience is a fool;
Which any one who has experience has already proven himself to be.
::)
There is another sailing related forum I frequent. There are Sailors there, and many many armchair sailors.
The armchair group love to sit behind their keyboards, they drone on endlessly telling us all how it ought to be done... ::)
Their most vile work though is to cast stones at those who try... And stumble. They are always quick to judge, and detail their actions if they had been there. They are quick to call those who "do" a fool...
People who "do" are a real threat to them... And we must be destroyed.
Beware the "cut and paste" "armchair" sailor (lower case S is intentional).
Quote from: s/v Faith on May 04, 2013, 05:49:03 PM
Quote from: Vega1860 on May 04, 2013, 04:53:37 PM
Anyone who goes to sea without experience is a fool;
Which any one who has experience has already proven himself to be.
::)
There is another sailing related forum I frequent. There are Sailors there, and many many armchair sailors.
The armchair group love to sit behind their keyboards, they drone on endlessly telling us all how it ought to be done... ::)
Their most vile work though is to cast stones at those who try... And stumble. They are always quick to judge, and detail their actions if they had been there. They are quick to call those who "do" a fool...
People who "do" are a real threat to them... And we must be destroyed.
Beware the "cut and paste" "armchair" sailor (lower case S is intentional).
And most of them have (or claim to have) boats over 40'.
I wonder how many "armchair sailors" really even have boats. ;)
Quote from: Vega1860 on May 04, 2013, 04:53:37 PM
Anyone who goes to sea without experience is a fool;
Which any one who has experience has already proven himself to be.
::)
Vega....8 posts and 3 "grogs" gotta be a record!!! I love the post above!!!! More grog from an proven fool ;) :o >:( ;D :)
Quote from: s/v Faith on May 04, 2013, 05:49:03 PMBeware the "cut and paste" "armchair" sailor (lower case S is intentional).
Now why do you suppose that sounds familiar? *grin*
Quote from: Vega1860 on May 04, 2013, 04:53:37 PM
Anyone who goes to sea without experience is a fool;
Which any one who has experience has already proven himself to be.
::)
Vids or it didn't happen..... oh, wait...... ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: Auspicious on May 05, 2013, 09:57:14 AM
Quote from: s/v Faith on May 04, 2013, 05:49:03 PMBeware the "cut and paste" "armchair" sailor (lower case S is intentional).
Now why do you suppose that sounds familiar? *grin*
;D
If a person really intends to go I doubt faceless naysayers would dissuade them.
Quote from: Wade on May 05, 2013, 08:44:35 PM
If a person really intends to go I doubt faceless naysayers would dissuade them.
I don't know. There are a LOT of naysayers, and sometimes they don't just say "don't go." The pressures can be mighty subtle or overt and everything in between.
The very existence of this site was premised on fighting a certain kind of naysaying that HAS destroyed dreams. Telling people it takes a quarter of a million dollars to buy a boat and another quarter to "properly" outfit it has probably killed more sailing/cruising dreams than we even know. That kind of "common knowledge," as it's often presented as, very nearly killed MY dreams of cruising.
A few years ago, someone here posted a reference to a site where a cruising couple mentioned on their blog that "cruising" requires a $125,000 boat...minimum. This was not even offshore cruising crossing oceans, but ICW/Bahamas style cruising ... harbor hopping at best.
The myth exists that it takes a certain amount of money greater than most "dreamers" have, and that myth itself pretty much says, "don't go." How do people not listen to that, without very specifically looking for another answer? You sure are not going to find positive encouragement in the sailing rags an many 'cruising' web sites that espouse 40+ footers as MINIMUM cruising boats.
PS: Edit to add that upon rereading this message, the thought hit me that it is at least possible that that myth exists for the express purpose of discouraging dreamers without deep pockets.
Quote from: Captain Smollett on May 05, 2013, 10:05:26 PM
[
PS: Edit to add that upon rereading this message, the thought hit me that it is at least possible that that myth exists for the express purpose of discouraging dreamers without deep pockets.
I really don't think that's true. I think the ideas come from the major sailing mags, who after all don't live on subscriptions, How could they possibly based on the very low costs to subscribe. Good Old Boat, who IS subscription based, must charge ten time s what Sail does, just to break even. They (the majors) HAVE to push what the advertisers are selling- and that's high dollar stuff.
In 2 1/2 years "out there" I met many cruisers who were NOT wealthy, and had smaller boats. True, Tehani was almost always the smallest ;) but there were a lot of 30, 32 footers. And NOT gold platers either. Look around the anchorages- after a bit, you learn to spot them-they are out on the edges
We have to just keep beating the drums of simple -SBLD- SOME will hear the beat. Many won't and that's ok too. But there is those few :D
Example- guy just left our marina, heading to Florida. 71 yrs old, single hand, living full time on a Catalina 22!!
Another- another guy, 70 yrs old, living full time (and reworking)on a Beachcomber 26
And some amazing folks, restoring a Westsail 32, while they live aboard!!! And they don't have a bunch of bucks, believe me. But they are ingenious
I hope I don't get kicked off the forum for being a heretic because of this, but I just came across a big boat that I really like. I mean I Really, REALLY like it: http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1902/Dutch-Canal-Boat-Custom-2445337/San-Pedro/CA/United-States#.UYcCyldRp8E
I could see myself living on that boat for the rest of my life, just cruising the US Gulf and Eastern coasts, as well as the inland waterways. It would even be nice in the Caribbean. :)
Maybe I could tow my Nomad behind it? ;D
Quote from: Wade on May 05, 2013, 08:44:35 PM
If a person really intends to go I doubt faceless naysayers would dissuade them.
I think that there is a line of demarcation, of sorts, between "Someday I want to sail to..." and "I bought a boat!". And another line between that boat purchase and "We're leaving on....".
For a lot of people, getting from "Someday..." to "We're leaving..." is itself a perilous journey, fraught with dragons of doubt, ignorance, lack of skills, money, and other vile creatures.
Sometimes all it takes is one naysaying troll to break the spell.
Travelnik - this is for you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NB1QeSro_gI&feature=player_embedded
Quote from: rorik on May 06, 2013, 01:59:21 AM
Travelnik - this is for you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NB1QeSro_gI&feature=player_embedded
Thank you. I enjoyed that!
I wouldn't have imagined that people would race them. Maybe because I never thought of barges going fast. :D
It's a tricky line to tread between offering encouragement and some cautions - and sometimes that can get expressed (or read?) badly. Likely if someone is simply after vailidation of a dream they will focus on the negative. But IMO a simple "go for it" is as useless advice as "don't"......the answer involves the person with the dream (with boat or without!) doing a lot of thinking for self, and for that they can use others to throw in ideas, experiances and things to ponder (and if they expect everything they hear on the internet to be useful or true then that is a problem no one else can address for them - the best that should be expected is making own learning curve a bit quicker, less painful and less expensive).....................but no replacement for thinking and puzzling stuff out for self.
The thing with boats is that 99% of stuff can be done - the questions are really around whether "you" can. and whether "you" want to.
The plus with small boats is that odds on that boat size is dictated by budgetary constraints (forced and chosen) - so it forces folks away from the trap that spending money can be a substitute for thinking or knowledge. The downside is of course boat size - bigger can often be better!, at least in comfort....and at sea comfort is a "safety" issue especially when short or singlehanded. Not a bar but certainly a consideration.
Anyway, that's the view from this armchair ;D
Quote from: CharlieJ on May 05, 2013, 11:08:34 PM
Quote from: Captain Smollett on May 05, 2013, 10:05:26 PM
[
PS: Edit to add that upon rereading this message, the thought hit me that it is at least possible that that myth exists for the express purpose of discouraging dreamers without deep pockets.
I really don't think that's true. I think the ideas come from the major sailing mags, who after all don't live on subscriptions, How could they possibly based on the very low costs to subscribe. Good Old Boat, who IS subscription based, must charge ten time s what Sail does, just to break even. They (the majors) HAVE to push what the advertisers are selling- and that's high dollar stuff.
But, that's exactly my point. There is a 'force' at work, intentional or not, that pushes spending money as the sole means to an end.
Last year I was at a gathering and overheard part of a conversation between two ladies. One was telling the other about their preps for 'going cruising,' and the part I heard was "and we bought the right kind of boat...a forty-one footer.'
I cringed.
I knew the second lady, and what I knew of her was that she and her husband were in the market for a boat to go cruising. They were considering a circumnavigation, actually. Both parents are "professionals" with largish incomes, and they were struggling with financing their cruise.
And they were CONVINCED that they needed a boat over forty feet and with "all the bells and whistles." Now, don't get me wrong...they were not just CHOOSING a biggish boat with a lots of trinkets. My conversations with them revealed that they thought there was No Other Way.
A 30 footer is a "nice little day sailor."
This couple both have good paying jobs. They were struggling to afford the boat they "needed" AND have the money to take off. A big part of their "cruising plan" was WORKING...
Not working in the Lin and Larry model...work and save a bit, have fun for a bit, but rather a "work constantly" model.
I have met far more people struggling to meet or are giving up on 'the dream' that are convinced "big is the only way" than the smaller, do-it-with-less folks just getting it done. On land, the dreamers, seem to me to have bought into the advertising mantra.
My frustration is the adamant resistance I meet when I just mention..."you don't NEED a forty footer with all those 'systems.'" Usually, they look at me like I have insulting their children AND their mother.
I have a friend that has just made it to Bimini. They are in a Hunter 36 and didn't think it was big enough to sail to the Bahamas.
Long story but the CG wanted to know why a 22' sailboat went to NOLA.
Maybe its the new mine set we have now. Lots of us grew up in less than 1000 sq homes. Today you can't live in one less than 5000sq. Seems to be the same mind set with cruising boats.
There is a lot of "I need all the comforts of home" attitude. "If I can't have a microwave, a shower, two heads so we can get cleaned up at the same time, a longer waterline to get "there" faster, all the conveniences of my 3000 sqft home.... I'm not going. And have you seen the Jones's boat? They have a blah, blah, blah......"
Sometimes it seems the itinerary, and its "required components", are more like a grocery list to be bragged about later, than a journey to see parts of the world they haven't seen before.
I think a lot of people shopping for boats, or talking about dreams, need to read the quote below. Not just because of its message to go, but also its message to go small.
?To be truly challenging, a voyage, like a life, must rest on a firm foundation of financial unrest. Otherwise, you are doomed to a routine traverse, the kind known to yachtsmen who play with their boats at sea... "cruising" it is called. Voyaging belongs to seamen, and to the wanderers of the world who cannot, or will not, fit in. If you are contemplating a voyage and you have the means, abandon the venture until your fortunes change. Only then will you know what the sea is all about.
"I've always wanted to sail to the south seas, but I can't afford it." What these men can't afford is not to go. They are enmeshed in the cancerous discipline of "security." And in the worship of security we fling our lives beneath the wheels of routine - and before we know it our lives are gone.
What does a man need - really need? A few pounds of food each day, heat and shelter, six feet to lie down in - and some form of working activity that will yield a sense of accomplishment. That's all - in the material sense, and we know it. But we are brainwashed by our economic system until we end up in a tomb beneath a pyramid of time payments, mortgages, preposterous gadgetry, playthings that divert our attention for the sheer idiocy of the charade.
The years thunder by, The dreams of youth grow dim where they lie caked in dust on the shelves of patience. Before we know it, the tomb is sealed.
Where, then, lies the answer? In choice. Which shall it be: bankruptcy of purse or bankruptcy of life? ?
― Sterling Hayden, Wanderer
Quote from: Captain Smollett on May 06, 2013, 09:08:38 AM
But, that's exactly my point. There is a 'force' at work, intentional or not, that pushes spending money as the sole means to an end.
Last year I was at a gathering and overheard part of a conversation between two ladies. One was telling the other about their preps for 'going cruising,' and the part I heard was "and we bought the right kind of boat...a forty-one footer.'
I cringed.
I knew the second lady, and what I knew of her was that she and her husband were in the market for a boat to go cruising. They were considering a circumnavigation, actually. Both parents are "professionals" with largish incomes, and they were struggling with financing their cruise.
I spend most of my time over on CF where folks in this bracket appear more frequently than here on Sailfar. Often enough they are the same folks who come looking for answers and get frustrated to instead be confronted with questions to ask of themselves. My take is that some folks think the answers can be acquired off the shelf whether for free or for cash and no brain required or effort required from self.
Actually sometimes I think I am taking part in a different activity to some. Perhaps I should make messing around in boats a lifestyle? Lol.
I'm definitely seeing more big boats. Granted I haven't been gone long but the boats at anchor are big. I don't think I'm in a particularly fancy cruising place though. But maybe the fancy boats tend to stay more at marinas. I'm sure if I was between Washington, D.C. And Maine the boats would be a lot nicer. Iffy now there are 6 boats at anchor. A power boat, me, and four sailboats. If I had to guess I would say 28, 40, 40, 40. They're not shiny new though. Maybe 25,000-80,000$ boats?
I talked to a guy at the dock I stopped at yesterday and told him what I was doing and I think he just took it for granted that I had all sorts of fancy electronics. He asked if I had a chart plotter an I said I it a GPS and he started talking about things I have no idea what he was talking about, but k don't think by GPS he was thinking garmin handheld.
The world is full of dream killers. Nobody outside other like minded individuals pushes you to do it, I think you have to fight and try to piece together the truth to what you do and dont need yourself.
I'm not sure which website has the armchair sailors, I'm assuming sailnet, although I would describe them as a mix. If its sailnet I've totem a lot of great info from there.
Sailing should be geared for people 18-50 since I find it so physically challenging, at least with having to do everything myself
18 to 50 eh !!! I guess CJ, myself and others here better hang up our docksiders ;D ;) :o :( >:(
I know MANY MANY cruising couples in their 60's and 70's.
Quote from: Frank on May 07, 2013, 08:17:50 AM
18 to 50 eh !!! I guess CJ, myself and others here better hang up our docksiders ;D ;) :o :( >:(
I know MANY MANY cruising couples in their 60's and 70's.
I was supposed to quit 22 years ago?? No body told me ;)
Lol. Grog for that. ;D
Quote from: w00dy on May 07, 2013, 10:25:50 AM
Lol. Grog for that. ;D
as a 60+ person, I have no intention of packing it in... additional grog, cheers !!!
If I may paraphrase his point and make it on-topic for this particular discussion...I think there is some merit in telling folks new to sailing in general and especially if they are planning 'offshore' sailing that it can be physically demanding.
I have met a number of power-boaters and 'land lubbers' that seem to think sailing is just sitting there letting the wind blow you around. At most, it is steering, so how hard can it be?
Again, this is about expectations. And, again, the incorrect expectation is not helped by the image in the sailing magazine adverts that show nothing but an anchored boat (already anchored) with a bikini clad beauty lounging on the foredeck. They are selling "vacation."
But, sometimes sailing is "work." I wrote in my "Living Aboard - The First Year" post a while back that in some ways, living on a boat is not unlike living anywhere else. The "Different" is largely myth in a lot of ways.
How many people come to "cruising," even just ICW marina hopping, thinking it is a "luxurious lifestyle of fun and games" and no one told them ahead of time they'd have boat chores to do, repairs to make, laundry, shopping, cooking, cleaning, earning a living, etc....
Reality is not like the pictures in the magazines.
I've met a few...folks that say "this is different than I thought it would be." They complain about the "work." I don't think that's out of laziness but out of not expecting it!
Read a blog a few months back about a young couple that set out on an open ended adventure and this is exactly what happened to them. Living on a boat was too much like "living" ashore with additional stresses due to weather and the like.
Some stick with it; some rebound, adapt, or always realized this sold myth of the idyllic lifestyle was a farce from the beginning. Some do not and leave the boat tied alongside to head sadly disillusioned back to the 'life' their friends and family warned them was 'normal' and they should not leave.
One fellow I met even told me one day..."this is not at all what I thought it was going to be." His boat was being put on the market, if I recall correctly.
In keeping with the theme of this thread, therefore, I think it is important for those that "know" to be as honest as possible with those that do not about what to expect. I think that's the best gift to give them. Not false bravado "ah, you can do it," not melodramatic stories of danger or hardship.
Just the simple truth...something the magazines leave out.
Cruising is like eveything in life...Light side-dark side.
*Beautiful calm nights at anchor, sipping wine watching the sunset, Jimmy Buffet CD playing---being tossed around as the wind howls outside..cold, uncomfortable, then anchor dragging
*magical beam reach in 15knot winds, sun shining, small chop, nature at it's best---25+knots on the nose, beating for hours in the cold rain, 6 hours more to go, wondering why the heck you are out here!
*everything is working great, you"re proud and praise yourself for maintaining a proper little ship---everything seems to be falling apart at once, for 2 weeks you've been contorting yourself into wild positions to get at nuts and bolts never intended to be touched. You wish the person that designed this was here right now to work on it ! Your cruising kitty is taking a serious hit as the parts bills mount up even with you doing the labour....all the while wondering when the fun starts
And so it goes......the majic and the pain..... Life IS kinda like that ;)
Adding to Franks list......
Sitting up at 11pm watching a movie, back of my mind thinking about the sailmaker who's coming first thing in the morning to bring the new light air jib and the $25 swap meet windlass that I finally had time to take apart and discovered it needs nothing more than a simple rebuild, so I'm not in the least bit tired - but I still have to get up early. Reach for the last bit of dark chocolate, realize I left it in the sun and it hasn't de-melted yet. Decide to make make hot cocoa. Dip the Tilley wick for the pressurized kerosene stove in meths, clip it on the burner...... watch yellow flames jump a foot high because the burner stem has a sudden leak where it screws into the top of the mostly full tank. Nip the potential burnt to the waterline home loss in the bud and grab the fire extinguisher next to the stove. Overspray goes onto the sleeping berth, into the navigation books.... spend the next two hours cleaning that mess up...... and no cocoa.
Life on a boat is definitely "light side-dark side"........ just wish the dark side had better cookies.
Well when I wrote 18-50 my phone battery had three percent less so I hit send instead of losing it.
I wanted to ad:
Should be geared for adults of all ages tending to the younger. The point was it is hard work and physical and there is a lifetime of learning to be done that it is a shame that most people wait until retirement to really get going. If you had started at 25 say what could you have done?
It does t strike me as an old persons activity is all. It seems like it should be scruffy safari joe out here but if you look around the marina you wouldn't know if you were at
A. A golf course
B. an Arizona r v park
C. Florida
Just step outside it for a second. Let say you are sailing from North Carolina to Florida, anchoring along the way, then across the gulf to spend 3 months in the Bahamas. Does that really seem like it would attract 70 year olds or Euro backpacker types. I think the point is not enough you adventurous souls realize it is possible.
Quote from: northoceanbeach on May 07, 2013, 01:43:44 PM
Just step outside it for a second. Let say you are sailing from North Carolina to Florida, anchoring along the way, then across the gulf to spend 3 months in the Bahamas. Does that really seem like it would attract 70 year olds or Euro backpacker types. I think the point is not enough you adventurous souls realize it is possible.
Do you have any idea how many 70+ yr olds do this same trip every year???
Annie and Neville come to mind...GREAT sailors!!
LuLu and GiGi are close to 70...same trip and more yearly!!
MANY MANY MORE!!
PS..this note sent from my wheel chair at "Shady Pines Home for the Decrepit" ;) ;D :o :)
I realize it is mostly seventy year olds but my point is it should have a more diverse age spectrum.
Another sport that I do that has a lot of older people is windsurfing. It's great that you can windsurf at seventy, as a matter of fact the guy that gave me my first harness was and he died a few months later doing what he loved and that great. But it seems that it should attract younger people and I don't know why it doesn't.
Why are they into cars instead of boats? It muse be society. Pressure to look cool so 20's -40's are spent on clothes and cars and getting a career. Ways to find a mate. Seems like having a kickass sailboat would but I don't think chicks think like that. Like in the other thread about significant others and sailboats. I think people are driven by desire to find a mate and if you have a boat in cocoa beach ou may be ale to pick up a lot of tourist chicks for one night stands, but the guy with the nice car, that tells women he has money and a job and maybe we could settle down. The sailboat tells her he can't grow up and she moves on. So the younger people but more cars and computers and when you're old enough to not care you do whatever the heck you want.
Quote from: northoceanbeach on May 07, 2013, 02:31:52 PM
Another sport that I do
Sailing is not a sport....it's a lifestyle! ;D ;D
Awsome thread - so many very thoughtfull responses.
Frank your description of dark side / light side exactly expresses my findings since I have started this journey - it's some comfort to have it confirmed.
I'm over 50 myself, and would never have started on 'building frame 1' if I had known all that I've learned so far - however, I'm glad that my ignorance allowed me to learn about and proceed to step 2...
For a dream to survive, it must not be allowed to drown in it's own fears
yet it must carefully seek out and heed advice for each step.
Focus only on the overall goal, and the detail at hand.
It's sites like this one, that confirm my belief that 'enough' is not only better, but it is indeed 'possible'.
Thanks,
Tom Z
Quote from: s/v Faith on May 04, 2013, 05:49:03 PM
There is another sailing related forum I frequent. There are Sailors there, and many many armchair sailors.
The armchair group love to sit behind their keyboards, they drone on endlessly telling us all how it ought to be done... ::)
Their most vile work though is to cast stones at those who try... And stumble. They are always quick to judge, and detail their actions if they had been there. They are quick to call those who "do" a fool...
Quote from: s/v Emerald Tide on May 29, 2013, 07:06:01 AM
"There are hundreds of paths up the same mountain, all leading to the same place, so it doesn't matter which path you take. The only person wasting time is the one who runs around the mountain, telling everyone that his or her path is wrong." -- Hindu proverb
Quote from: s/v Emerald Tide on May 29, 2013, 07:06:01 AM
"There are hundreds of paths up the same mountain, all leading to the same place, so it doesn't matter which path you take. The only person wasting time is the one who runs around the mountain, telling everyone that his or her path is wrong." -- Hindu proverb
Perfect.
I'm going. I'll post a video upon my return.
Here's my two cents on the matter;
When you're ready, you'll know.
Intuition.
Parting thought: You must be willing to die before you go. I would rather have 1 full day of doing what I love than living 80 years of bullshit most people call "living" on the couch.
~NOMN
good luck...have fun. look forward to the video!!
Quote from: s/v Faith on May 04, 2013, 05:49:03 PM
Quote from: Vega1860 on May 04, 2013, 04:53:37 PM
Anyone who goes to sea without experience is a fool;
Which any one who has experience has already proven himself to be.
::)
There is another sailing related forum I frequent. There are Sailors there, and many many armchair sailors.
The armchair group love to sit behind their keyboards, they drone on endlessly telling us all how it ought to be done... ::)
Their most vile work though is to cast stones at those who try... And stumble. They are always quick to judge, and detail their actions if they had been there. They are quick to call those who "do" a fool...
People who "do" are a real threat to them... And we must be destroyed.
Beware the "cut and paste" "armchair" sailor (lower case S is intentional).
This. Every word.
There is magic, bravery, and preparation in being there. Doing it.
Preparation is obviously important, but it's the kids on the water who have the final say.
There will be many armchair sailors left in my wake.
Quote from: NOMN on June 16, 2013, 06:26:28 PM
Quote from: s/v Faith on May 04, 2013, 05:49:03 PM
Quote from: Vega1860 on May 04, 2013, 04:53:37 PM
Anyone who goes to sea without experience is a fool;
Which any one who has experience has already proven himself to be.
::)
There is another sailing related forum I frequent. There are Sailors there, and many many armchair sailors.
The armchair group love to sit behind their keyboards, they drone on endlessly telling us all how it ought to be done... ::)
Their most vile work though is to cast stones at those who try... And stumble. They are always quick to judge, and detail their actions if they had been there. They are quick to call those who "do" a fool...
People who "do" are a real threat to them... And we must be destroyed.
Beware the "cut and paste" "armchair" sailor (lower case S is intentional).
This. Every word.
There is magic, bravery, and preparation in being there. Doing it.
Preparation is obviously important, but it's the kids on the water who have the final say.
There will be many armchair sailors left in my wake.
And a Grog for the journey...
Sail Far!
I probably should have mentioned in relation to the post I'm leaving in June, I've marked a date on my calendar, and each day I cross off yet another day closer. The difference between a dream and reality is a deadline.
"There are 7 days in a week, and someday isn't one of them." ;)
Why so long?
That is my personal internal compass, letting me know that is when I will be ready.
It's taking me a year because of weather windows, and everything else I have to do on my list adding it all up is taking 100x longer than I thought. I'm even building my own bamboo dodger and spinakker pole. Could I go right now and be fine? Most likely. I'm confident. But I want to possibly circumnavigate[keep going] and save up money for unseen circumstances, first.
There is much, much to do.