Ok, I know that is a very subjective question, but I have been wondering this year how much of our (little) experience is simply too much wind and how much is me being a coward.
We have a 20', 1600# sailboat (Balboa 20), 100% jib and a main with 1 reef point about 2 feet up. With this kind of rig, what would you consider 'time to reef', 'time to drop a sail', etc.? Me, I get really freaked when she heels over and the rail starts getting wet. I know part of a sailing life is getting used to those times when you are heeled over, but this is not 20,000Lbs. blue water cruiser- I worry it might actually turtle!
I sail a 22000 lb blue water cruiser. I rarely have the rail in the water. Reef early.
From my small boat experience I would suggest you reef when weather helm builds up. As long as you can keep the boat moving, reefing isn't bad -- you may be slow but comfortable. Have a sailmaker put a second reef in the main for you.
Now -- go find someone to race with. Get a little time on a J/22 or J/24 and get the feeling for sailing on a boat (with competent leadership) closer to her limits. You'll soon find that people give up long before boats do.
Finally, get a subscription to one of the British sailing magazines (like Yachting Monthly). The Brits sail in heavy weather much more than most Americans do, and their magazines reflect this. I watched a Jaguar 22 (like a Catalina 22) launch into the Solent in weather that would have 40 footers running for home in the US. The articles on wind and tide and weather in British magazines are -- over time -- very helpful.
Have fun, be comfortable, and find a way to push your own limits. Your boat will look after you.
sail fast, dave
I go out during small craft advisories regularly.
The genny gets a first reef (four wraps) at about 20 knots. The main gets a first reef at about 24 knots. The genny gets a second reef about 28 knots apparent and the main a second reef at about 31-32 knots. Above 32 knots, I'd furl the genny completely, and go to the third reef on the main, which I just added recently.
I'm a bit conservative when it comes to reefing the sails, since my boat will turtle, as it is a trimaran.
Quote from: AdriftAtSea on July 07, 2008, 05:36:36 PM
I go out during small craft advisories regularly.
Me too. That's when the sailing is really good! <grin>
Quote from: AdriftAtSea on July 07, 2008, 05:36:36 PMknots
Apparent or true? I put my first reef in the main at 18 kts apparent, and the second and third when weather helm builds to above 10 degrees. That works for my boat, but maybe I'm a pansy. <grin>
Seafarer 24
Full main and 100% jib up to 15 knots (I don't have a genoa, unfortunately).
Somewhere between 15 and 20 I'll put the first reef in the main. Depends on my point of sail, how rough the water is, and how tired I am. Around 20 knots the boat is pretty much over powered.
I have just had a second reef installed and haven't had a chance to play with it. I would say I start wishing for it before 25 knots, though. I've sailed in over 30 with a single reef and 100% jib, but the boat is not happy about it. And neither is the skipper. I'm hoping the second reef will keep things comfortable to at least 30. Time will tell. Any point of sail closer than a beam reach really wants the jib. The boat isn't too terribly difficult to handle without it; but just doesn't feel "right" to me. I'm not sure why. I may need to put in jib reef points for when the wind is in the high 20's or better. Or get a storm jib. I don't think I need the full 100% for balance, but something is better than nothing.
I've never felt like the boat was going to go over. However, she has tried to throw me a couple of times (changing sails in heavy(ish) weather, single handed, without a tiller pilot).
Wind speed is estimated based on weather radio reports. I don't have a wind meter onboard.
By the way, sailing in the 20's in not what I would call comfortable. It can be a lot of fun; but it isn't like on some of the bigger, heavier boats. My boat is light enough that the motion gets, well, lively. If I get a chance to pull my mast and check the rigging this summer (I think it is original 34 year old rigging), I hope to take her offshore a ways to see how she handles big water. You know, to get me prepared for The Scoot!
Those wind speeds are apparent wind speeds... and multihulls generally reef for gust wind speeds, while monohulls often reef for average wind speeds. :)
The real reason I like SCAs is that they get rid of most of the powerboats on Buzzards Bay. :)
Hi Chris -
"Coward" is not the proper word - if you were a coward, you wouldn't even be out there trying and learning! Grog to you for that! :)
As far as wind strengths and whatnot - go with what feels right and comfortable as you learn, but at the same time, try to 'push' your limits a bit every now and then to see what hovers 'over There', just out beyond your edge. :) You'll probably find that you can trust the boat, and that your 'edge' will grow farther out over time with experience.
Keep your hatchboards in, and companionway and ports closed when pushing that 'edge' - for safety, and for peace of mind.
If you do manage to get her to broach, I'd wager that you'll see her come back on her feet fairly quickly. :) Most designers put into their boats a certain amount of conservative thought which allows for the mistakes we can make. It is highly unlikely that, without some large waves helping, you could get her to turn 'turtle' (ALL the way upside down). You *might* be able to knock her down to 90 degrees for a few (long ;) ) seconds, but she will come back up onto her feet. Mostly, I think you'll find that she will let you know if you are doing something really wrong, and will give you hints about what to do right. :)
PS - Don't believe us "experts" ::) blindly. ;D It's up to you to perform 'due diligence' and research and reading, and then take that knowledge with you when you go out for some practical testing and application... Over time, you'll learn what bits of it to keep, what to toss out - what works for *you and your boat and your style*.
It's always a learning process, for each and every one of us. Show me a sailor who "knows it all" and doesn't need to learn any more, and I'll show you someone that *I* won't go sailing with. ;D
Oh, and a PS or two:
Welcome aboard, and thanks for contributing!
and remember this:
There Are No Dumb Questions, except the ones which go unasked! ;D 8)
Chris, how much wind is to much is a moving target. When you are new to sailing, 15 kn seems like a lot of wind, but as time passes and you become more familiar with you boat and sailing your definition of what is too much wind will increase. For now, let your "pucker factor" determine when it's time to reef or come in. Usually when you first think you might want to reef, you probably already should have. A friend with many years sailing experience says a conservative approach to sailing is a good approach. Kind of reminded me of the old pilot's adage "There are old pilots, and bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots". Do what is comfortable for you.
Grog to Joe Pyrat for a first class answer.
sail fast, dave
Quote from: ChrisandVero on July 07, 2008, 03:48:24 PM
We have a 20', 1600# sailboat (Balboa 20), 100% jib and a main with 1 reef point about 2 feet up. With this kind of rig, what would you consider 'time to reef', 'time to drop a sail', etc.?
I have a similar boat: 18 ft LOA and 1350 lb (empty and dry) displacement.
My first reef usually goes in between 15 and 18 kts, and that's keeping the jib up; she sails very well in 20-25 kts with reefed main alone. I don't like to heel excessively, either, as the weather helm wears me out and heeling more than about 20 degrees just feels slow.
Agree with all previous comments...the boat will "tell" you what she wants - it's your job to listen.
Fair Winds.
Everyone,
Thanks for the kind words and excellent advice! This is only year 3 of sailing for us, so everything is still pretty new (and still very, very fun). Reading about the folks who sail trans-oceanic in small boats got me thinking about this subject because our first sail on 'little' Lake Superior saw us caught in a storm. Luckily it lasted an hour and we managed to tuck into a bay and anchor for half of it. Being out and about in that is more than I think I can handle (currently). But I will learn, and I will sail!
Thanks,
Chris
Chris-
The weather on the Great Lakes can get just as nasty as that of the open ocean in many ways. As you get more experience, you'll find that the winds that were terrifying previously, are merely scary... and the stuff that was scary is not a big deal. :)
the same wind speed will do different things to different boats.don't even worry about it.watch your inclinometer.I generally begin reefing at 25 degrees.
Hey Chris,
In my experience what means too much wind is dependent on what you are trying to avoid. Too much wind can be hard on your rigging and crew. Too much wind can make your boat hard to control and too much sail for conditions can make your boat under-perform. I sail mostly on J/24's and Solings and I've found that once the boat becomes too hard to control, weather helm and dangerous jibes, then it's time to reef. I've had a boat heeled over pretty far and the sail stalls out long before you capsize. Broaching is always something to be concerned about in heavy winds, but you usually don't see that unless you're flying a spin.
If you're heeled over more than 25 degrees, your boat isn't performing well. If you can't trim for optimal heel close-hauled, then you should probably reef. Definitely experiment with it. The boat will heel over farther than you think it can without capsizing, and chances are you'll fall off the thing before it will do that :).
My two cents....
The whole point is to sail as efficiently as possible. I recon. Boat on her side with a rudder flapping in the breeze is going nowhere...fast. So, reef to go fast... and more comfortable.
I don't see the point of pushing the envelope, unless you have no other choice. I have been caught in all kinds of wind, not by choice, mind you. Well, you deal with it any way you can.
Just remember, whatever breeze you get yourself into, you still need to control your boat.
You have to be making way to do that. Either run with the wind or keep some scrap of sail up
to help steer...
Recently, I watched a large, over 50' long sailboat motor into steep 6-8 foot swell, right behind my boat. We had a double reefed main up, motor at full blast and making 2.5 kts straight into the wind 25-28kts. (plus the waves). We were relatively comfortable, with the mainsail pressing the boat onto her side, so that even at the top of the wave, we stayed upright. The big boat had no sail up.... That was not pretty... She was swinging through a 100degree arc, from one beam to the other... I was getting seasick just looking at her.
Happy sailing...
I agree totally.. sail for performance. Keep your rudder in the water. I still think getting to know your boats limits and feeling her out is a good idea. I've sailed on some 470s in decent winds and on something like that it's definitely important to know where the tipping point is. I"m not recommending going out and tipping over a boat. I'm recommending that one push his comfort zones a bit to ready himself for what might happen.. You might be heeling at 15 degrees in 15 knots and suddenly a sustained puff comes through and you find yourself at 35 degrees with waves pushing you further over. If you are comfortable with water coming up over the rails and sitting on the side of your boat you're less likely to drop the tiller and wet your pants when it happens.
Who told you about that?! It was spray from the waves I tell you! :D
All good advice, and I really like the idea of reef points in the jib from another thread. I think that and a jiffy reef system for the main would make weather changes more fun and less 'interesting'.
My "other" boat, is a Santana 20, which is about 1350# displacement. It's wide, and has good initial stability, but watch out if you let it heel too far, too fast! We have never sailed with a full race crew aboard; only my wife and I. We have to reef at about 15, change to the small jib at 20, and reef again at 25 to keep upright with just 2 aboard. The Santana just doesn't sail all that well if heeled too far. The steering gets hard, and the boat slows down.
Our Bristol 24 is totally different. It slowly heels until the rail is underwater, but it's not scary at all. The tiller stays light and balanced, and the boat keeps it's speed well.
Different hull shapes and keels make for different sailing.
adding briefly to the discussion... also look at the shape of your sails. Flat sails are required for heavy air. Unfortunately, RF mains and jibs make for "round" sails when partially furled. Good for tipping the boat over and side-slipping. Not good for making the boat go forward.
Look at the western sky to anticipate the squall and plan ahead.
Reef the main early and make certain the reef makes the main sail nice and flat. Traveller to leeward if you have one. If you have a hank-on jib, move the fairlead aft a few holes to twist off the top of the sail a bit. Tighten the halyard. Best, of course, is to hank on a small jib or reef the hank-on jib.
In the interests of full disclosure: cubemonkey and I got the order of operations wrong prior to a few squalls recently. The wind gave us a good solid dope-slap each time. We experienced the fact that the boat is tougher than the crew, too.
I think I should write out a thousand times, "I will reef early."
Have fun.
I agree with the above....
Flat sails are needed in a breeze, roller reefing does not help, you end up with a fat jib way up the forestay...
And you have no options to set a smaller sail, since to take down the RF jib you have to unfurl it.
I use hank on jibs, large 140% and a reefable 100%. Reefable with additional clew and a set of gathering lines...
(have not tries to reef it yet.... better yet, I will look for an even smaller jib during the winter.
Happy sailing! :)
The ATN Gale Sail might be a viable option for people with RF headsails. It "hanks" on over the roller furled headsail and acts to keep the headsail furled as well as being a fairly decent storm sail. They make four sizes IIRC, the small, is about 60 sq. ft., which is good for most 28-32' boats or so... the extra small is usually custom order and IIRC about 45 sq. ft.
To partially answer the original question: Considering the weather in the gulf, I think it is probably safe to say that somewhere before hurricane force winds is too much.
Just trying to be helpful. ::)
Last weekend, winds of 24-28 gusting up to 36, came close to too much wind for me. But, with a crew, it would not have been too much. I found out I needed another reef point or two. A smaller jib would have helped also. Mostly though, it was because I was singlehanding. When the wind is up, things happen faster. It's much harder to raise the sails in strong wind alone. Halyards get tangled in the wind, sails blow around before being raised, and the boat refuses to stay pointed into the wind for long.
Experience means more than equipment when the wind is blowing. Everytime I go out in higher winds, I do better the next time it blows.
I learned something yesterday.
Out with my son in law, daughter and wife in 20knt winds. Having a great old time. Partly cloudy with occasional downpours. Other sailors out on the lake, feeling rather salty. Forecast was 10-15 with higher around the thunderstorms. None of them on the lake that I can see. (the lake is 20 miles long, 10 wide)
Just because it is blowing a bit, and I really don't want to tilt that much, we have a reef in the main and shortened jib...
We get hit by a microburst.- not associated with any downpours or increasing clouds. Just immediate force 8 wind. (40 plus knts- the swells are being cut off with with the upper 10-20% turning into white spray- I kid you not!!)
Immediately tried to turn to windward and take down the sails, The Compac 23 was overpowered and unable to respond. Almost broached while turning itself downwind. Jib is furled through heroics of my son in law. Unable to heave too, as windage and waves on the hull is too much! Wife is in state of shock, daughter is in the cabin with her, crying. We run with the wind for a minute or two, and then it is gone. All that is left is large swells, we start the motor and limp back to the marina...standing rigging stretched, bilge pumps working, crew in shambles and me wondering what I needed to do better.
I am thinking of starting a new drill on my boat. Much like the man overboard drill, it will be practiced whenever we go out till we have it cold. At the call of "Heavy weather"
1. one hand will hand out life jackets ( it they are not already on)
2. one hand will furl the jib
3. helm will immediately heave too, secure the rudder and start the outboard.
4. Jacklines placed. Cabin slats up and Cabin closed.
5. If in shallow water, anchor will be deployed, if not sea drogue or sea anchor will be deployed.
Oh and one last comment- there are no passengers on a small sailboat, only crew! I think my wife would have been much less traumatized if she had been up there working with us.
Comments?
Not having been on board I couldn't comment on that part, but something to try is simply blowing the sheets. The sails will make a ton of noise and may even get damaged, but if they can't drive then the boat can't go anywhere except for windage of the boat itself . 40 knots all by itself with no waves to speak of is NOT gonna capsize a Compac 23. With the sails out and flogging a bit you can roll the jib, and then haul in just enough on the main to stop the flogging. Then sail on a beam to broad reach.
Just some armchair thoughts there- you were there I wasn't.
DON'T get yourself into the mindset of "start the engine". In heavy going that outboard will only do one thing reliably- it will quit on you. Sooner or later. Or it will be coming out of the water on wave tops and not be providing any help..
If you are going to cruise you MUST learn to deal with heavy weather using sails. It's something you simply HAVE to do.
And trying to place jacklines when the situation is already happening, is just plain too late. They need to be in place already.
Otherwise your list seems pretty straight forward to me.
And I agree totally with your last line. Handing the tiller to your wife while you dealt with sails would have been a much better thing than having her below and frightened. Better to be on deck, frightened, but DOING something.
Happy it all came out ok in the end. In a few months, you'll have a sea story ( and the winds will be 50 knots :D)
CJ,
We blew the mainsail when we tried to heave too. Just the windage from the hull and mast kept the rail and ports! in the water. I have no idea how fast the wind was at that moment, I was too darn busy. I wish I had it on video.
You caution me not to start the outboard. I thought starting it would be a safety measure, and would keep power to the bilge pump. I wouldn't be powering out, just keeping the lights on. Your point about being out of the water is well taken.
Newt.
You said you couldn't get the boat up, but have heaving to as part of your plan. Think that through.
I definitely agree with blowing the jib sheet to allow rolling it up. You may find that some main (not trimmed, but in a bit from completely spilling air) will give you enough windward helm to bring the boat up.
Can you heave to without any foresail at all? If not you may need to get the main down to sit a-hull. Can't help you there, as my response is definitely partial jib (staysail offshore, not normally rigged inshore) and reefed main hove to.
I agree with Charlie - the outboard is a distraction and possible detriment. Sail the boat. If you can't count on your bilge pump running "long enough" -- however long that is -- add battery capacity.
The life jacket idea is a good one.
As Charlie says, if jacklines aren't already rigged it is too late. Rig in advance or change your plan. Mine are off inshore and on offshore; response plans to weather differ accordingly (inshore I would go forward to reef the main (all at the mast) with a PFD/harness clipped to the mast while working but unhooked to windward moving fore and aft N.B. bigger boat, much much heavier).
Good experience you had. Hug your wife.
Quote from: Auspicious on September 22, 2008, 07:47:01 AM
- the outboard is a distraction and possible detriment.
I agree with this 100%...er, well, maybe 99.8% since I am about to give a 'contrasting' story. ;D
This one falls into the category of "I wonder what would happen if I try this."
Several years ago, we were sailing the little boat (18 ft, 1350 lb centerboarder) on an inland lake (not offshore) and got hit by a squall not unlike that in the OP's story....except I SHOULD have seen it coming. Close-hauled sailing toward some anchored boats and we got laid over. I rounded up (or rather let her round up) and tacked to get some sea room and my wife helped me drop the sails.
Winds were 32-35 kts sustained with gusts (confirmed later by email to a NWS rep), and that was enough to beat the lake into a froth of good 5-6 footers with lots of spray.
While we were running off under bare poles, I began to wonder what would happen if I had a drag device. We were doing okay: the boat was handling fine and wife and daughter were below enjoying the ride (my wife DID help me on deck get everything secured as the blow hit..so we pass that one). My only concern was running out of water at the rate we were sailing.
My first thought for quick and easy drag device was to start the outboard and put it in reverse...at idle. This worked like a charm. The ob in reverse slowed her down just enough, and she was riding so good we could have stayed like that all night if we had to. It was really amazing how comfortable a ride that was.
Thus we went for about 45 minutes or so, until I worked into the lee of a small island, and by that time, the blow was abating.
So, I'm not advocating the ob as a "go-to," survival device....just wanted to share what I thought was an interesting approach to trying something new.
Having learned from that, and much since then, my FIRST choice for weather is heaving-to. Still nice to know, to experience, the difference between bare poles and bare poles+drag.
As an aside, I know now much better how that boat actually sails in reasonable heavy weather...but this experiment was one step in the direction of having additional confidence to keep 'er sailing in weather. I now believe 25 kts is a TON of fun in that boat, even singlehanding.
Threads like this are always humbling. I am glad that I posted because it helps to crystallize my thinking for the next time. I have been sailing in these western lakes for close to 20 years, this is the second time I have gotten caught like this. I have had a bunch of close calls, were we duck into the marina or behind an obstruction just in time...but this was the real thing.
Windspeed? Higher 35 knts but I don't know how much higher. I have been in gusts of 35-40. The last time i felt wind like this the lakeside weather station reported gusts of 55-60 mph (this is Utah) This time it went inoperative (the weather station) We blew the main because the boom was cutting water on the leeward, thus as stated eariler, making it impossible to round up.
The good news is everyone has recovered but me. All want to go sailing again. Thanks for the advice. i will leave the outboard out of the drill, but include the drogue (either from the bow or the stern- I haven't made up my mind yet.
newt