Ever since CharlieJ mentioned that he could reef in under a minute, I've been looking at my reefing technique for improvements. Last time I reefed underway, it took about five minutes, but part of that was actually tying the bundle up (the sail was already set).
I have been using a simple technique that had one line going through the reefing clew around the boom, another, separate line to the boom end and back to the cleat on the boom, and a hook on a line for the tack. I would first pull the clew to the boom and tie it off, then pull it back with the separate line. This worked well to give a good shape to the reefed main, but took some time.
To improve this technique, I now use a single line: it ties to the reefing clew, loops under the boom, back through the clew, to the boom end and to the cleat. It seems better; I shall see if it is quicker under way.
What other mainsail reefing techniques are used? How would you rate the technique you use? Pros and Cons?
Greetings all.
As the weather grows colder and boats up here are returned to land for the season and the hard core among us start thinking of taking the rig down and erecting shrink wrapped domes, I intend on redoubling my attendance here. Our season is short enough - so I won't make excuses for being absent.
Today's question is one of simplest methods of reefing. I've seen a few different tactics when it comes to reefing and am now turning to you to ask - which methods you use. What have you tried and forsaken? Which rigs have you envied and maybe intend to rig on your boat.
Right now I have pretty simple system that involves a hook at the mast end that I hank the cringle to for the tack end. Another hook at the clew end (at the outhaul end) and simple ties to neaten the middle. A bit clumsy when its lumpy out (which is usually when I'm reefing).
I like the simplicity but am not in love with the system. Love to hear your input. Thank you in advance of your sage advices.
John
s/ Solace
Along the same question of reefing. I'd like to know if folks heave to when they need to reef, or do you simply go into irons? Seems to me that heaving to, with the jib backwinded would make reefing easier and the boat less bouncy.
What do you say?
Oded Kishony
s/v Zen came with a dutchman setup. I am able to reef quickly. Lower the main tighten the reef lines in the cleats and raise the main. Done.
I'll have to run a test on reefing in irons or hove-to
The Ductman system on s/v zen is a jiffy reef setup. Two lines, 1 fore and 1 aft on main. Drop the main tighten the lines , raise the main, Badabig, badaboom. Simple and sweet. The draw back I found is the 1 reef point.
[Edit by Captain Smollett 2006/10/16: removed reference to duplicate threads after merge]
We heave to if needed, but since there is almost always two of us on deck it's seldom needed. Should one be below asleep, the other would heave to.
I use a two line system. I've tried a one line setup and don't like it. It puts strain on the sail and fittings the I feel are un necessary. The two line system is just as fast and doesn't stress the sail.
I have a line that I tie around the boom through the luff reefing grommet. That sets the sail right at the gooseneck and still allows my sliding gooseneck to function. The leech reef line is deadended on the port side of the boom, run up through the reef grommet, back down on the starnboard side, through a turning block ( cheek block) and forward to a horn cleat just aft of the gooseneck, on the starboard side of the boom.
The second reef point is done the exact same way, but it's cleat is just aft of the first one.
I do not and will not lead lines aft to the cockpit. I firmly believe that puts you in danger when you DO have to go forward- and you will eventually, no matter what. If you aren't used to going up to handle sail you won't know the hand holds, or be comfortable up there.
If we are offshore and reefed, I tie in the nettles. If inshore ,like in the bay, I don't bother - just let the fold of sail hang.
We also have a reef point in our working jib, which takes it down to storm jib size. It works exactly like reefing the main. Luff reef grommet to tack, sheets up to leech grommet, roll up and tie the bunt. THAT I do tie when we reef the jib.
Quote from: oded kishony on October 16, 2006, 08:08:31 PM
Along the same question of reefing. I'd like to know if folks heave to when they need to reef, or do you simply go into irons? Seems to me that heaving to, with the jib backwinded would make reefing easier and the boat less bouncy.
I've tried reefing while in irons and while hove-to. There is no way my boat will stay in irons without active helmsmanship so someone has to be on the helm during reefing if attempting to do so head to wind. I once attempted this while singlehanding on a lee shore and it was not pleasant.
Now I prefer heaving-to. The boat is much more stable and it does not require 'active' steering.
My standard procedure is for two up. On passage that means waking someone up. Singlehanding just spreads the work out and depends more heavily on the autopilot.
One person goes forward to the mast and flakes the main halyard and makes sure the reefing lines are not fouled. We ease the main halyard with sails trimmed to point of sail. I have webbing through the tack eyes with stainless rings on both sides. First and third reefs get hooked on a gooseneck-mounted reefing hook to port and second reef goes to starboard. The helmsperson feathers up once the ring is on the hook to allow the main halyard to be hauled back up. Feathering continues until the clew reefing line is hauled in tight.
Fumbling around with new crew or singlehanded it takes about 3 or 4 minutes. With practice, two people can go through the whole evolution in about a minute and a half.
It works for me on my 40.
Currently, the Pretty Gee is setup with a reefing line for the clew, but uses a tack hook for the tack reefing cringle. This winter I'm leading the main halyard, the topping lift, the spinnaker halyard, the outhaul and the two reefing lines back, and adding two reefing lines for the tack cringles, to make a two-line reefing setup. This should allow me to reef a bit faster than I can currently, which takes about five minutes single handed.
After dinner I started messing with a mast raising system. I saw it in a website, a 2x6, a keel winch, some hardware and a ratchet strap.
Worked like a champ! The mast is up in two minute with no effort whatsoever! I was having problems with side movement, I used a line as babystays, and it worked perfect! I'll get some pictures tomorrow after work.
Now, my boat has no jiffy reef, the sailbooklet that came with the boat suggest to use single line reef. I went ahead and got the hardware (two cleats and a cheek block) Should I do it or there's a better system to use?
Another thing, I got a couple of winches, old Catalina 22, Gibbs england, and I looked around but I could not find any information on the winches. Any input is appreciatted.
Gus
I'd recommend going with double line reefing if you want to be able to reef from the cockpit, or using a tack hook and a line to reef and you're doing it from the mast.
This is based on my personal experience... I find that a double-line system is faster and you have more control over reefing the sail.
You also might want to read this article (http://www.pineapplesails.com/articles/reefing.htm) on reefing, which has a good description of single-line vs. double-line.
What do you recommend for the reefing tie lines (nettles?)--the lines that gather up the bunt of the sail when the sail is reefed.
I don't have a loose footed sail, so the lines have to go under the boom. The sail could get torn if something goes wrong.
I've been using short pieces of line. Usually only need them when the sail is double reefed. The line has to pass through the small grommetts--maybe 1/4" wide
I've been thinking of using bungee cord, but its hard to get a knot to hold in bungee cord.
Please ignore the lack of wind in this photo
(http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/attachment.php?attachmentid=2812&stc=1&d=1132157416)
we just use short pieces of 1/4 line as you do. Of course we have slides on the foot of the sail so ours go between sail and boom, but I used to reef a sail that had a bolt roped foot- just have to go round the boom and be careful
Like you, I seldom bother tying in the reef points when single reefed, unless we know we'll be reefed for quite some time, such as offshore. Or if we think it likely we'll be taking a second reef.
And we always hope we'll never have to use the third set ;D
Solace-
One thing about your setup is that it doesn't really allow much in the way of tensioning the reefed sail, at least from what I read in your description.
The Pretty Gee is rigged with two reef points and a line going up to the clew cringle for each reefing point. To reef, I drop the mainsail and put the reef tack cringle on a tack hook at the gooseneck, and then tension the line. At some point, I want to install a block at each of the cringles to get rid of some of the friction in the system.
I am also considering setting up the mast and re-doing the running rigging to allow me to raise, lower and reef the mainsail from the cockpit. I have most of the hardware I'd need to do it, but just haven't decided if I am going to do it yet or not.
Solace,
As for the reefing nettles: I also use lengths of 1/4-inch line (3-stranded Dacron line). I leave them dangling, threaded through the grommets and secured with overhand knots on either side.
My catboat had a boltrope sail, and I just had to make sure that the nettles were long enough to tie around the boom. As long as I made sure that the lines holding the bunt weren't too tight, I was able to get a nice smooth sail. My current mainsail has sliders, so I run the nettles between the sliders. That way, I can make them tight around the bunt and still get a smooth surface.
As Dan says, it's the reefing tack and clew that have to be kept taut.
Since I singlehand in an area where the wind usually comes up like gangbusters in the late afternoon (you do, too, Dan), I keep my two reefing lines permanently rigged through the clew points. For the tacks, I use reefing hooks at the gooseneck. I've got two adjustable cheek blocks on the boom for that, and I keep them outboard of the point where the reefing clew would actually touch the boom. This creates an outhaul effect and helps tighten the sail.
The weak point of my current system is the topping lift: I have to remember to tighten it before starting to reef, and sometimes I forget to let it out after I've shaken out a reef. And the topping lift is cleated to the mast, where it can interfere with other lines.
I'm thinking of adopting a topping-lift setup that adjusts via a small vang-like setup at the end of the boom. SailCare sells such a system.
Back to your original point: If you're tying up the bunt around your boom, be sure to make the lines loose enough to slide forward and aft a bit, and you'll get a nice smooth sail surface.
Good luck.
--Joe
The only problem I've ever had with topping lifts adusting at the boom end is- how do you reach them if the boom is other than close hauled and you need to reef? or adjust the lift someway?
Which is why mine has been kept at the mast. In fact ALL of my reefing is done at the mast, other than reefing the jib of course. When I'm sitting at the base of the mast, with my legs wrapped around it. every line I need is within reach. Tack lines, clew lines, halyard and topping lift. I can even carry the tail end of the main sheet with me and control that from there.
Before you spend too much money on fiddling with your topping lift, look at a solid vang. In honesty I don't know what they cost, since my boat came with one. The vang means I don't have to think about a topping lift ever. It makes reefing so much faster and easier and less prone to error.
If you leave the jiffy reefing lines attached to the sail, how do you stow them when the sail is dropped?
There's a Hunter 34 that I recommissioned a couple weeks ago, and it has 2 sets of jiffy reefing lines that are led aft. They make a *big* tangle on deck when the sail is down, and I'm trying to find an efficient and easy way for the owner to stow them when not in use, where they won't be in the way or require any extra effort when hoisting the sail (if this is possible, which I am having a hard time imagining :D)...
Capt. K,
Leave the reefing lines alone when dropping the sail, ie; let them remain at the setting for a full hoisted main.
After the sail is down and flaked on the boom, just pull all the slack from the reefing lines back on one side at the end of the boom. Then make a quick coil of them and push it into one of the folds of the sail. Once the sail cover is on, they won't go anywhere.
Also no problem when re-hoisting the sail, as they are "pre-set" for the main to go up to its normal position.
Kevin
And that avoids the problem you can have if you've coiled the reefing lines and forget to shake out the coils...
I strongly agree with Ol' Coot -- I just shove mine into the flakes of the main as I pull it down and back, tying down with gaskets as I go.
OK, that's what I'd been doing. :) Thanks, all! Grog fer ya!
Quote from: Cmdr Pete on July 06, 2007, 10:34:41 AM
What do you recommend for the reefing tie lines (nettles?)--the lines that gather up the bunt of the sail when the sail is reefed.
I don't have a loose footed sail, so the lines have to go under the boom. The sail could get torn if something goes wrong.
I've been using short pieces of line. Usually only need them when the sail is double reefed. The line has to pass through the small grommetts--maybe 1/4" wide
I've been thinking of using bungee cord, but its hard to get a knot to hold in bungee cord.
Please ignore the lack of wind in this photo
(http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/attachment.php?attachmentid=2812&stc=1&d=1132157416)
NOTHING. If you lose a reef line all the stress will be on these points and most likely tear your sail. If you feel you need these lines I'd suggest you go to a loose footed main. You'll get better sail shape anyway. If not at least use a very small line that will hopefully break before the sail tears.
On board Jester (A friends boat we are refitting) we have gone with light velcro straps. They hold beautifully, but if the sail were to let go, the straps wooudl release long before a danger of tearing the sail....and the straps would even be re-usable afterwards.
We sewed a little length of VB cord onto the end of the thin vlcro strap to make it really easy to thread through the eyelet of the sail and then pull through the strap proper.
I used to use bungee cords on my boat, and you can get a little plastic crimp-on clip that goes through the eyelet easily and then clips through and pulls tight into the mated end that is attached to the other end of the bungee cord. Our local chandlers stocked the tips.
Alex.
Hello all:
I have been pouring over two books:
The Science of yachts wind and water by HF Kay Page 33, in particular.
Elements of Yacht Design by Norman Skene (original edition reprinted) Page 92 wind force graph.
Using AVERISERA as a model, I found the numbers to closely match our experience. Validation.
Wind force is defined as 0.004 x wind speed squared. We find results in pounds per square foot of:
10 kts = 0.75
15 kts = 1.25
20 kts = 2
25 kts = 4
Our full main and 100% jib have sail area of 468 sq ft
One reef (roughly 75% of full) and 100% jib have sail area of 351 sq ft
Two reef (roughly half full main) and 75% jib have sail area of 301 sq ft
I did all the arithmetic and saw that a full main and jib in 10 knots pretty much matches a small jib and double reef in 15 knots. This also matches our gut reaction.
Other interesting aspects are to look at correlations to stiffness (static righting moment curves) and boat speed polars. HF Kay has some terrific tables that provide guidance for further understanding the "numbers" associated with making the boat go.
Maybe cubemonkey will get free and make a table and graph that can be put in here?
What got this started is that my students keep asking for some metrics for reefing. I come up with the usual reply: "when you think it is time to reef, reef." And, "if the rail is in the water, reef."
Not to mention, this weekend's Boston Harbor Islands Regatta looks to feature a nice 15 to 20 knots from the North East and driving rain. We're thinking about heavy air.
So... I am going to work this up as an explanation.
Comments? Critiques?
Best, Norman
Your numbers make a lot of sense.
We also reef by the numbers. Number of degrees heeled, number of whitecaps, number of screams, etc...
yeah
we do pretty much the same thing. the numbers are interesting as we can compare sail area with different combinations.
going to make a graph and have more detail in the weeks ahead.
norm
This is interesting . . . standing by to see the chart . . . Always learnin'
Shawn
Hi Norm,
Your analysis certainly points out why you need to reef in higher winds. From an engineering/physics point of view you need to be careful though, as it's so simplified that it will not generate actual representative wind force values. It can be used for COMPARING values, however, as long as you stay on the same point of sail and trim for the same shape...
The reason the force predictions themselves aren't valid is that, as you certainly understand, the force on a sail does not just come from wind blowing against it, but also over it. (It's both lift and drag) Furthermore, the force generated is not just a function of the area of the sail but incorporates the angle off attack of the wind to the sail, sail shape, sail trim, twist, draft, etc.
The 0.004 x wind speed squared model is a drag model and only somewhat works to predict force if the sail is sheeted 90 degrees to the wind (all drag, no lift), which in reality is only happening dead downwind.... It's more useful for calculating anchor loads, etc.
However, the model does proportionately illustrate the relationship between changing wind speeds and sail area required. You're on far safer ground stating that "when the wind speed doubles, the force multiplies by 4 and so your sail area needs to decrease proportionately if all else remains the same" than to state actual force values. As a teacher I'd stick to a general explanation of more wind = less sail area and try to develop the instinct of when to reef, rather than trying to provide hard numbers that students will want to use as a hard & fast rule...
[... At least for my boat, 15 kts seems a bit light to me for a double reefed main and a 75% jib to be equivalent to full working sail at 10 kts... ]
Yes, Bill, it is a simple model. The texts get into the complex model in some detail. The thing we found is that our experience matches the simple model. I am working on a way of understanding the complex model in order to explain it to new sailors. I hope my study helps us manage our boat with more understanding and skill.
Who would have though study would be so much fun? I am dragging up a lot of the physics and trig from my youth. Gee that was a long time ago!
It is particularly interesting that the sail-change points occur at roughly the same force-levels. We can sail with a full main and 100% jib (our largest) up to about 15 knots. (Much less comfy than at 10 knots but still practical when racing.) After that we have the choice of a reef and a small, 77%, jib or two reefs in the main and the 100%. Pretty much the same force-level. The boat does sail differently. The small jib and larger main allow us to go to windward very quickly. The other combination is preferred for reaching. We observe that speed increases with the right sail plan. A well known sailing fact, eh?
Averisera is a very narrow boat, the waterline is 25 feet and beam-waterline is 7 feet. While we have a static righting moment curve showing positive stability to 130 degrees, the curve is shallow showing Averisera to be tender... empirically proven. Hence, reefing early is necessary for us. Reefing at the right place and with the right combination critical.
I also sail a very fat boat, 1987 C&C 38, heeling buries the beam and induces huge amounts of drag. We see on the new wide-all-the-way-aft models that the opposite occurs.
The simple model is useful for getting some relative values for managing the sail plan on a single boat but not useful for comparing boats. It will be interesting to see if anyone gets to do some empirical testing to compare numbers with experience.
This weekend's Boston Harbor Islands Regatta will be windy. I expect to have a chance to look at things in a competitive environment. Our choices will show up quickly as being right or wrong.
Study on...
Best regards, Norman
OK, I need help ..this is the way I did it and the numbers I got:
10 Kt.......004 X 10 X 10 = .4
15 kt.......004 X 15 X 15 = .9
20 KT......004 X 20 X 20 = 1.6
25 KT......004 X 25 X 25 = 2.5
30 KT......004 X 30 X 30 = 3.6
So, where did I screw up??? Also, the reefing by the numbers I use are not wind speed but percentage
of heel. I usually reef at 30 degrees as that is where I usually start loosing speed and I must reef to
maintain speed. The wind speed will vary with direction and relative direction of the wind. Straighten me out on that formula. I like the formula, I'd just like to come out with the right numbers. Tnx JZ
I think Norm's OP is missing some numbers... cause according to Excel... I get the same numbers as you did.
Constant 0.004
Wind speed Force
5 0.1
10 0.4
15 0.9
20 1.6
25 2.5
30 3.6
35 4.9
40 6.4
45 8.1
Kinda gives you a feel for why these hurricanes do so much damage !!!!! TJ
Quote from: okawbow on September 25, 2008, 06:44:49 PM
We also reef by the numbers. Number of degrees heeled, number of whitecaps, number of screams, etc...
I totally understand that an activity such as when to reef a sail can be mathematically derived and that simple fact is probably one of the many reasons that sailing has such appeal because of it's many aspects from simple to complex. My personal preference for most things in life is the simpler the better. And IMHO there is no better guide to life's many aspects than pure unadulterated fear. Therefore, I too endorse the fear factor reefing system. Of course, I also would like to believe that there still be dragons out there, mate! ;)
Quote from: TJim on September 26, 2008, 05:53:31 PM
Kinda gives you a feel for why these hurricanes do so much damage !!!!! TJ
Especially when you continue the table and see how rapidly the force grows as wind speed gets into hurricane strength...
Wind speed Force
10 0.4
20 1.6
30 3.6
40 6.4
50 10.0
60 14.4
75 22.5
100 40.0
125 62.5
150 90.0
As a general rule I try to reef before the wind gets over the 20kt range, It is hard for me to shorten my canvas in stronger winds, the roller furling is nice but the main never wants to act right. so I opt to shorten sail early and save the rigging from being worked to hard, I have been known to put the rail in the water from time to time, But that is not always a good thing as you lose sail area as you start to heel over. I would always recommened to always reef early so that things don't get out of hand. Any one who has got them selfs in a stiff wind Knows that things seem to go wrong at the worst times. Our boat is 37 ft so it takes a good blow to get her to go 7 kts, And if we get it up to 8.5 we are going to fast. We live on our boat and do not wish to push her to hard .
I tend to reef based on weather helm. If the rudder stays above 10 degrees to hold course I reef the main.
With my 100% jib, I get all the way to the third reef before touching the foresail. I'm still getting a handle on the new 135.
sail fast, dave
In the interest of throwing more fuel on the fire...
I figured out what the different sail area combinations were and applied wind force factors to the areas for a total measure of windforce. Granted, this is pretty simple stuff. But it is a starting point for study.
Rounding, we get:
full main and 100% jib = 470 sq ft
full main and 77% jib = 420 sq ft
one reef and 100% jib = 400 sq ft
one reef and 77% jib or two reefs and 100% jib = 350 sq ft
two reefs and 77% jib = 300 sq ft
two reefs and no headsails = 150 sq ft
In 15 knots, the wind force on a full main and 100% jib is about 600. This is similar to a reef and the 77% (or two reefs and the 100%) force of 700 at 20 knots of wind. No headsails and the second reef in 25 knots or more yields a wind force of 600. We know from experience that these are comfortable levels.
This is a partial list of values. If I can figure out how to put a table in here, I will.
Interesting to see the relationships in numbers. Other things I want to study are the changes in drag with angles of heel and decline in windforce with angles of heel.
For us, sailing is about having one's "head outside the boat." It is not about sitting with a calculator sailing by numbers. What's the fun in that? The numbers help us make choices about sail combinations.
Note: the Boston Harbor Islands Regatta went off as planned in the dense fog and sometimes driving rain. Averisera pulled a third in Class B and a fleet position of 10th/29 finishers. Of the 38 starters, nine did not finish. Elizabeth/cubemonkey navigated and managed the tactics. I worked the bow... jibs and kites.
Some semi-amusing photos are on our blog, averisera dot com.
Quote from: Auspicious on September 27, 2008, 06:03:44 PM
I tend to reef based on weather helm. If the rudder stays above 10 degrees to hold course I reef the main.
With my 100% jib, I get all the way to the third reef before touching the foresail. I'm still getting a handle on the new 135.
sail fast, dave
Interesting thread with a scientific 'touch to it. For all of those who are not inclined to calculate when int's time reef, and has not yet gotten the experience needed to 'just know when...' I'll definetely second Auspicious comment.
It is not more complicated than that (on a cruisng keelboat) nd still one tends to wait too long with reefing way to often
"When you think it is time to reef, it is time to reef."
"Reef early and often."
Sage advice given years ago by Captain Andy Kurtis
One of the things that prompted he study is a recent beat home. As we entered the outer harbor the wind picked up. Sailing went form benign to frisky (?) pretty quickly. E and I waited to reef, thinking things would settle down in a bit. Caught reefing late and in a crowded channel, we discussed our late decision. Everything worked out fine, no accidents or such and we certainly learned from the experience!
This may be an aside... or another thread... but I find that many boats are too hard to reef. Of all the things to have set up to work well, reefing has to be pretty high on the list. I find that is often not the case.
more to follow.
Norm:
Thanks for starting this fascinating thread. I'll have to get out my sail measurements and calculator and see if I can put together a similar table for my Cape Dory 25D.
and Swede:
I really like your tip about reefing when there's more than 10 degrees of weather helm. That seems like a good guideline for my boat, which needs to reef at just about 15 kts (when flying the full 130 genny).
I've never looked at this scientifically, always relying on the feel of the boat. But 10 degrees of tiller to weather is pretty close to what seems comfortable.
The danger with relying on "feel," of course, is that if you're tired or lazy, you are willing to put up with more weather helm--meaning you'll be crawling forward in heavier weather than necessary when it's time to reef on the fly.
--Joe
One other thing that is extremely relevant is that reefing the main and reefing the head sail (by rolling up
the foot of the sail) also lowers the center of force on your boat so that you can actually use more of the
power that is available without excessive heel to the point that you increase drag. You do however, loose
some wind speed as you lower your sails, but you can use more of the power that is available. TJ
mea culpa
I think I blundered some math. hate it when that happens!
Thanks for correcting!
Quote from: Oldrig on September 28, 2008, 11:35:11 AM
Norm:
and Swede:
I really like your tip about reefing when there's more than 10 degrees of weather helm. That seems like a good guideline for my boat, which needs to reef at just about 15 kts (when flying the full 130 genny).
I've never looked at this scientifically, always relying on the feel of the boat. But 10 degrees of tiller to weather is pretty close to what seems comfortable.
The danger with relying on "feel," of course, is that if you're tired or lazy, you are willing to put up with more weather helm--meaning you'll be crawling forward in heavier weather than necessary when it's time to reef on the fly.
--Joe
I've noticed on my Bristol 24 with the full main, and 150 genoa up; I can bury the rail and the steering just gets easier. There is actually less weather helm at that point than with moderate wind. Because of that fact, I usually take too long to begin reefing, and end up overpowered. With a reefed main and 100% jib, she also behaves similarly. When the water gets up to the coaming, I lose so much speed, it's much faster to reduce sail before then.
When racing, I used to carry the 150 genoa and full main to 20 knots and more, but I'm learning that it only slows me down over a certain windspeed and percent of heel. I guess it's different for every boat.
I can see where you might be able to use a formula to predict maximum sail area for a given windspeed. You will still have to determine a baseline for every boat by actual experience.
Hi all,
Just logged back in after way too long!
I'll try to get a file together to post that shows Averisera's analysis. I agree that this is a simplistic approach. As the boat turns off the wind, this reduces the perception of being overpowered. So there are a lot of variables (not including each individual boat's characteristics and sail plan) that influence when to reef.
On our 2-skipper boat, we have different responses to the exact same combination of conditions. I wouldn't call it fear for me, it is more caution or risk aversion. Norm is more willing to push things a bit further. This could be not just due to boat characteristics, but now includes such things a personal strength, agility, and gender.
We have reefed many many times this summer. One good thing about a generally heavy weather summer, is that it becomes Heavy Weather Training 101. We've experienced storm cells (singles and multiples), sudden severe squalls and thunderstorms (somewhat normal in summer for our area), dissipating hurricanes, Northeasters, Northwesters, madcap easterlies. If it can happen, it did.
So when do you reef? The discussion Norm began will certainly help us to quantify what we know by instinct. Reefing early is good. But the decision point doesn't need to be negotiated every time we are out sailing. Quantifying our experience gives us language for communicating, and a basis for making decisions. If I'm down below, and the wind picks up, will I be rested when the decision to reef is made? Or will I be groggy and clumsy? Who will go forward? What is the visibility? How much searoom do we have?
If it's already blowing, there is a good chance that I might not have the strength to get the sail down quickly. Or I won't be able to contain it and tie up the bunt. If Norm goes forward, will I be able to hold the boat steady long enough to complete the task. These factors include variables based on the conditions at the time, and our personal capabilities that will also vary depending on how long we have been out, how cold it is, when was our last meal or cup of tea.
The one instance Norm mentioned of being overpowered coming into Boston Harbor, and then having the wind increase inside instead of drop, put us in a position where I literally could not get the sail under control to tie up the bunt. We didn't have enough room to maneuver safely, and the spots we expected the wind to abate, did not deliver. You can wind up putting your boat and yourselves in situations that could have been avoided, if you have a dialogue for the discussion and a method for evaluation. So this topic is just the beginning, and we are hoping it will deliver us happier sails in all conditions.
-elizabeth
Hi Elizabeth-
Look forward to seeing your chart/file. :)
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I've noticed on my Bristol 24 with the full main, and 150 genoa up; I can bury the rail and the steering just gets easier. There is actually less weather helm at that point than with moderate wind. Because of that fact, I usually take too long to begin reefing, and end up overpowered. With a reefed main and 100% jib, she also behaves similarly. When the water gets up to the coaming, I lose so much speed, it's much faster to reduce sail before then.
When racing, I used to carry the 150 genoa and full main to 20 knots and more, but I'm learning that it only slows me down over a certain windspeed and percent of heel. I guess it's different for every boat.
I can see where you might be able to use a formula to predict maximum sail area for a given windspeed. You will still have to determine a baseline for every boat by actual experience.
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Good point. All boats are different, and quite a few, especially with masthead rigs with a quite small main would react as you tell us. I guess you would benefit from deciding from 'degrees of heelng' rather than 'degrees of tiller to windward' then...
It's trial and error.
BTW I'd like to second Norm's comment about how difficult reefing can be on som boats. Really important!
One tio to make reefing easier, assuming of course that the boat is already fitted with 'slab reefing', is to mark the reef lines and or halyards, so you know how much to tighten without having to rediscover this every time.
On Rode Orm, we have a Seldén mast and boom from the mid-eighties. It's fiited with 2 reefs where the lines are inside the boom. All line-hanling is done at the mast and I don't like the 'spaghetti in the cockpit' and aded friction that comes with leading all lines aft. Just my personal view...
Anyway, we always have the reef lines tied to the main sail, and reefing can be done in less than a minute even dead downwind. If alone, I do it this way; First I release the main sheet a bit and let the boat maintain her course. ( unless close-hauled where it gets simpler if I turn some 20 degrees downwind) At the mast I release the boom downhaul, realease the halyard to the tape mark, attach the reef grommet to the hook at the gooseneck, tighten the reef line and then the halyard. Lastly, I retighten the downhaul and 'crawl' back to the cockpit where the sheet will be adjusted again. The first time yu do this Murphy's law makes it an interesting task, but with some training it's really simple and straight-forward.
I feel that there should be lots of practice reefing, There have been alot of times that when I thought about reefing it was too late to do it smoothly. As with anything if you don't do it alot it is not as easy as one might think! All the charts and Graff's don't mean much compared to the boat weight sails ect,ect ect, The best thing to do is go out and sail practice everything M.O.P ,reefing, and just basic seamanship as much as possible,_Remember the old saying that if you don't use it you lose it
Ok here is the first of probably several. I put this together, but Norm has not seen it yet. It's based on his calcs of our sail area. The rest is just excel crunching the numbers.
I've uploaded this as a pdf. Cap'n K has offered to take my Word format and try to make it look pretty here. ;D
-elizabeth
http://www.averisera.com/files/Averisera_reef_matrix.pdf (http://www.averisera.com/files/Averisera_reef_matrix.pdf)
Elizabeth-
Here is the PDF as two PNG files, so people can just see them here.
(http://www.adriftatsea.com/files/averisera1.png)
(http://www.adriftatsea.com/files/averisera2.png)
Hey Adrift,
I corrected the table somewhat. The original factors were wrong formula.
Please download the new copy at the same url.
http://www.averisera.com/files/Averisera_reef_matrix.pdf (http://www.averisera.com/files/Averisera_reef_matrix.pdf)
Sorry for the confusion :-[
-e
(http://www.averisera.com/files/Page1.png)
(http://www.averisera.com/files/Page2.png)
These are the new ones.
They came out a little small. Hmmm.
Anyway, Main +3 is our full main plus the #3 jib.
We have a #4 jib too, at 77%.
So our combos are Main +3, Main +4, 1 Reef + #3, 1 Reef + #4 or 2 Reefs + #3, 2 Reefs +#4, and last Main with 2 reefs.
For pointing we'd probably keep the bigger jib, and downsize the main. Although, our #4 does a fabulous job and keeps the boat balanced. The #4 and 2 reefs is still very powerful, and keeps us sailing usually at hull speed or better, if the conditions are really wild. I'd like to have a storm jib, and a storm trysail. I think there were conditions this summer, that maybe if they weren't exactly warranted, at least were strong enough to test that combo. So what do I want for Christmas? Norm thinks I want a new lightweight #3, but no, I want bright orange storm sails. Such a girl!
-e
This thread explains why the Labor day sail was such a nightmare. We went from reefed sailing a 20 knts to over 50 in less than a minute. Almost got knocked down before we could get to bare poles. By using your figures, we went up about 10 times the force. Now its starting to make sense. Question- has anybody been knocked down under bare poles?