If you have a boat with a regular head and you use salt water to flush and run the system try this. Once your done and back in the slip flush the head with a gallon or so of fresh water. Add you deodorant and close her up. Flushing out the salt water keeps the head fresh and will all but stop that dank odor. Add a little vegetable oil now and then to keep the system lubed and seals fresh too.
Works for me, of course rinsing the bucket out with salt water works just as well!
Dunno about the oil thing, I tried that once to give me a good seal between my butt and the bucket, it's sure ain't fresh by the time I got off it! And I keep sliding off the cockpit seats afterward...
I use RV antifreeze. Even in the summer. It has lubricants in it and smells good too. It's also cheap!
Amorous,
Never heard of using antifreeze, how much and do you just pour into the head or add through pumpout?
----------------------------------------------------------------
This morning it looked so nice out I thought I'd leave it out.
S/V "Tina Marie" Cal 2-27
"antifreeze" :o
Sorry to jump in with the "hippie" thing...( I'm in Northern Ca :-[)
Doesn't that kill anything around it when it is dumped ??? Are you talking all the time and go to pumpouts, or offshore dumping...or...?
I use that biodegradable, non toxic, RV antifreeze. The pink stuff. Supposedly you can drink it straight. Of course they SAY that you can drink the tap water in Phoenix too.
I just pump the bowl dry, add a cup or so and pump a little through while leaving some on the flapper. It doesn't evaporate, and keeps everything lubricated.
Thanks I'm gonna try it.
----------------------------------------------------
This morning it looked so nice out I thought I'd leave it out.
S/V "Tina Marie" Cal 2-27
;D
whewwww, I feel better. So much so. I'll try that once I get my system working ;)
...sweet
QuoteI have a good place for it in the head; what man needs a head when at sea anyway. No, I do not do the rail dangle; I use a bottle or a bucket when at sea.
Well, I do use the head. especially when I have guests on board!
I've been in 12' swells and used the head with no problem. Of course using a bottle for #1 is okay when I'm alone, but I cannot bring myself to do so in front of others, especially when the "others" are females. Likewise, most females would rather not "use the bottle" in front of males. (Significance others excepted!)
Key here though, in stormy weather/high swells, is to sit down for everything, don't try to pee standing up.
If I was alone, I might use a bucket, but with others on board, well I'm a bit too "civilized" to do so.
I meant if a guest needed to go, do I tell him/her to use a bucket in plain view of everyone? The boat is a tad too small to go elsewhere and leave the poor soul some privacy and I'll be darned if I make everyone go on the deck in a stormy situation.
The way I have done this in the past on my former boat (SJ21), where the "head" is in the middle of the cabin is to have everybody, but one come out to to the cockpit and close up the companionway to give the one person some privacy. There's a point where that might not be practical, thus the need for an enclosed head.
I know many other sailors that use the bucket, in fact I've had one tell me that the bucket is preferable. Maybe I'm too modest or shy or something. Then there's how do you keep the bucket from tipping over before you can rinse it out?
Heck, how can you rinse it out while underway? Moving water is not something I'm willing to dip a bucket into without risking tearing off my arms. (Unless the boat is moving really slow.)
Most discussions on this subject I have read deals with using bottles/buckets and the like and how to clean up and so on, but I don't think I've ever seen any discussion on the "social aspect" of bucket use.
I know that a lot of us are not all that "nature free" and so on, so how do you all deal with the "social aspect" of "having to go"? I know when one really have to go, one tend to not care so much, but afterward, there's this awkward moment...
What say you?
Quote from: Dougcan on November 03, 2006, 05:59:17 AM
What say you?
I agree, but I sail alone so most of the aforementioned is mute. If I had guests or others aboard, sure, I would use the head, always.
Quote from: Dougcan on November 03, 2006, 05:59:17 AM
[ Likewise, most females would rather not "use the bottle" in front of males. (Significance others excepted!)
I cannot speak for females of course, but it has been my experience that there is generally not an exception for significant others.
The head privacy situation is one I am wrestling with as well, having FOUR on a 18 ft boat. One is still in daipers, so that's okay. Another is still young enough to not care too much, but she does occasionally show a preference for wanting some privacy.
This is one of the real reasons I think we are going to outgrow the 18 footer. Whether it is just to answer nature's call or just to have a bit of personal space on board, the present boat is severely limited.
Capn Smollett-
Four people on an 18' boat is definitely a tight fit. Having a head that can be closed off from the cabin, as I do on my boat, is definitely a major plus, but often not possible on smaller boats.
One of the problems I seen with some of my guests is that being down below makes them more likely to be seasick... which makes going below to use the head a challenge under certain conditions.
Now that the regular sailing season is somewhat finshed here, with the on set of rains and no winds. Except for today which was perfect, but I was on boat work detail not fun.
Anywho.
So my attention is now turning inward to this years to do list.
one of the things is get the head in operation. currently my seacok is frozen tight closed. The inside is socking, liqud wrench. However I do not think it will coming loose. All the rest of the seacocks are like new!
I plan on having her hauled out in January for a bottom paint. At which point I can have the seacock, replaced or rebuilt.
Which bring to mind the purposeof having it fixed. To use the marine head. I want to be able to flush liquids ONLY while out on the Bay. Solids when the need arrives. Goes in the holding tank. Out a sea everything would go overboard. The idea requires a couple , hmm three Y values as I have it planned in order to bypass the holding tank when liquids are in use.
sounds complex eh! Yeah I do also. But I could go direct to sea or to tank, then tank to sea or to pumpout.
Another idea is just to use a porta potti.(simple, but a hassle to empty) whilst local. When going blue water passage hook up the Maine Head.
The other part to this is, The flush water on the marine system comes from the fresh water tank, I believe. Is there a way to hook it up to seawater? Is it practical, Pro & Cons?
and whilst on the subject of seawater. I hear/read about using two pumps in the galley, one for seawater. Where/how does the hookup for seawater go. As in where is the inlet for the seawater? Only thing I could think of would be an connection of some sort off the sink seacock or motor cooler seacock.
So what do YOU do/think?
Zen-
You might run into some legal issues with being able to flush liquids within the three-mile limit. :D
Also, I think the engineering that it would require is going to be more than you want to get into. The definition of liquid versus solid is rather vague when it comes to waste products... I think it would make more sense to be able to flush to either the ocean or to a holding tank, but have a way to empty said holding tank while at sea. When it comes to a marine head—simplicity is a virtue that is often overlooked.
Most marine heads are not connected to the fresh water system on a boat, at least directly, so you might want to check that. It is likely plumbed to a seacock. The reason for this is that there is too high a risk of contamination in a non-pressurized water system. Most heads that can be flushed via freshwater are usually rigged to take water from the head sink, which acts to separate the two systems and ensures that the head can't contaminate the fresh water system.
Standing seawater in the head is often a source of head stench. Seawater has a number of lifeforms—mainly planktons that raise an awful stink when they die and start to decompose.
Having both a head and a porta-potty strikes me as a royal pain in the butt. Why bother with the porta-potty if you've got a perfectly good marine head. If reducing the need to pump out is the reason, then you might look at getting the "toilet bags" for use while you're sailing on the bay.
The idea of a seawater pump faucet in the galley is to help reduce the need for freshwater. Often, you can tap into another seawater line, either the flush line for the head, or more typically, the cooling water intake for the engine. On some larger boats, I've seen them install a seawater manifold box—which acts as a distribution point for all of the seawater needs, except for engine cooling—and reduces the number of through hulls required. If you're going to use it for the galley sink, don't forget to include a good raw-water strainer....keeps the jellyfish out of the sink.
I think a 'raw water' tap @ your sink is worth it. I installed one on 'revival' and 'Jubilee' came with one. Saves on your fresh water when you are simply rinsing food off your dishs before washing them etc. I drilled/installed a 3/4in seacock on #50 and ran a hose up to a 2nd hand pump I installed @ the sink....was simple. Jubilee has it right under the sink. Your head should have a 'raw water' intake...again a 3/4in seacock. Fresh water there would be a waste....especially on a passage. On #50 I installed a Y valve to the tank or overboard (again..a proper seacock). I toyed with the idea of a 2nd Y valve on the discharge line from the tank connected to a hand pump to have the ability to pump out the tank over board while offshore.There is a pump made just for that.I have one @ home if you need make/model #. Pretty simple stuff really...BUT...proper seacocks and Y valves ARE expensive.
Quote from: Zen on December 18, 2006, 04:27:13 AM
....... hmm three Y values as I have it planned in order to bypass the holding tank when liquids are in use.
sounds complex eh! Yeah I do also. But I could go direct to sea or to tank, then tank to sea or to pumpout......
....So what do YOU do/think?
Zen,
You might want to take a look at this thread on the Ariel site. (http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=1239)
In posts 32, 33, and 34 Frank is describing a very similar set up he found aboard 'Revival' when he got her.
(http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/attachment.php?attachmentid=2177&stc=1&d=1113963614)
Quote from post 34;
QuoteBill .. if I could tell you how all that worked I would have needed to graduate from Harvard. The guy who installed it must have just bought shares in the hose manufacturing company.....or possibly the company making the plastic 'ties'. There was honestly OVER 60ft of hose total and had to be 100 ties !!! While I have NO doubt this system could ' slice,dice and do julian french fries ' I just couldn't figure it out. All joking aside , you could pump head to tank , head over board and tank overboard......I just couldn't find the instructions. The big attraction to the Ariel was the pleasing lines and simplicity of sailing a small boat.....so ...45ft of 1 1/2 hose , 98 ties and 3 Y valves later I have a simple system again. Guess I should have got that engineering degree !! Frank #50
I honestly think a system could be worked out WAY WAY simpler than the PO had on revival. He had 3 Yvalves...I'm sure 2 would do it.......and 1/4 as much hose !! Ya had to see that one to believe it !!
Yeah, thats what I'm talking about!
The orginal looked like a nightmare. I figured out I can use way way less hose, but still would need 3 valves. I have two now, and looking things over I could make do but , it would cut back on versatility.
1 valve - toliet to overboard/tank
1 valve - tank to overboard/pumpout
1 valve - seacock to tank/toliet
Thanks for the word on the seawater for the toilet. I thought that would make more sense. I had figured since my water tank was empty and the toliet would not fillup that was the problem. I will now follow the lines to see were they lead. Must be a valve that is closed. It is not just the one at the throne. Seems like the POs never used the head so everything is turned off.
Not a big deal in the Marina, just head for the office. On board with just me, Red handy lil john s fine. The ex-gf did not mind using the female adapter. However Lady Z, likes her comfort. Once doing some coastal cruising which is the plan for next year. The holding tank will be needed. Which seems like it will work fine as it is now, once I figure out where the water turns on. ???
The biggest wall in this whole plan is the frozen seacock >:(
Craig: sorry I missed your call. I was off doing the Christmas thing at my Sifu's school.
Zen-
Murphy's law says that the seacock you need to open is the frozen one. ;)
that @&$)&@$*# Murphy is a pain in the *)@&*@&$ :D
That could be, but it seems like it is only and exit .
I will have a ful investagation this friday, my day OFF ;D 8)
Quote from: Zen on December 18, 2006, 12:38:16 PM
1 valve - toliet to overboard/tank
1 valve - tank to overboard/pumpout
1 valve - seacock to tank/toliet
Zen,
I think I would avoid plumbing the head to the fresh water system and eliminate that third valve. That seems to be an invitation to disaster (think E-coli migrating up stream into your drinking water source).
If you want a way to flush out the waste system with non sea water, try "tee-ing" in a section of hose just inside the sea cock for the head intake thru hull. The opposite end of this hose will normally be closed off with a cap or plug so you can get normal suction when flushing the head. At the end of a weekend or cruise, when the water in your waste system will be sitting stagnant for a while (that's when the micro life forms in the sea water die and start to rot), close the sea cock and open the end of your "tee'ed" hose. Drop the end of the hose in a bucket of fresh water and exercise the head, pumping the fresh water through your system. This should displace the sea water in the system, and minimize the head stench mentioned by Adrift. As a side benefit, you can add a little mineral oil to the last bit of water in the bucket before pumping it through the head. This will lubricate the seals and valves in the head and prolong it's life. Don't forget to re-plug the "fresh water intake" when you're done.
By the way, if you have raw water cooling for your engine, the same type of system can be used to minimize the amount of salt and scale buildup in your engine.
Zen-
The way the head will be setup on Pretty Gee is as follows:
Head sink has a diverter valve ----> either overboard or to flush head
Seacock from ocean ----> Diverter valve for water source <------ drain from head sink
Head output has diverter valve ------> either to tank or overboard
Holding tank output has a diverter valve -----> either to pumpout deck fitting or to overboard via a Whale diagphram pump
Head output - overboard hose and the Holding Tank - overboard hoses are connected to the seacock via t-fitting.
This allows me to flush the head with either fresh water, via the head sink or seawater. This makes winterizing the head and holding tank pretty easy. This also allows me to flush directly to the sea or into the holding tank. Finally, it allows me to pumpout at sea or via a pumpout station.
The parts in bold were added to the system...the rest was already in place and re-used.
Quote from: AdriftAtSea on December 19, 2006, 01:16:16 PM
The way the head will be setup on Pretty Gee is as follows:....
....diverter valve
.....Diverter valve......diverter valve.....
......diverter valve......
Head output - overboard hose and the Holding Tank - overboard hoses are connected to the seacock via t-fitting.......
The parts in bold were added to the system...the rest was already in place and re-used.
Is this the way it is set up now? 4 diverter valves and a 'T' fitting? wow.....
Also, the 'T' fitting would allow you to pump the contents of the holding tank right back into the head (if the Joker valve leaks at all).
Might end up needing a 5th diverter valve for this system! :o
THat is a lot of valves, fittings, hose and clamps! ;)
Dan that sounds as complex as the picture looked that was posted on the Ariel :o
Sounds handy, but complex.
I am thinking of putting the head output directly into the holding tank and then only having the diverter valve for changing the pumpout to the through hull or the deck fitting.... But I have to go down and look at how it all fits together. :)
That would leave it at:
QuoteHead sink has a diverter valve ----> either overboard or to flush head
Seacock from ocean ----> Diverter valve for water source <------ drain from head sink
Head output ----> Holding tank
Holding Tank output has a diverter valve -----> either to pumpout deck fitting or to overboard via a Whale diagphram pump, using existing diverter valve from the head output line that is already in place. :D
I've been pleased with my set up.
The outlet from the head goes to a short length of pipe with a ball valve at each end. One valve opens to the holding tank and the other to a seacock overboard. Close the overboard and open the tank valve to flush to the tank. Open the overboard and close the tank valves to flush overboard. Open both valves to dump the holding tank (offshore) overboard. Very simple, very flexible, easy to maintain.
The pump out is a completely seperate fitting to the tank.
Has anyone seen or had any experience with the airhead composting toilet?
Some advantages over some other composting units, which I'm told are troublesome at best, is the seperation of solids and liquids which stop the tank from filling as fast and eliminate the need for a heater unit (from the pictures it looks like the liquid waste goes into an easily dumpable bottle). A small fan must always be running; but that doesn't seem like that big a deal. It also drastically simplifies plumbing and eliminates almost all the likely points of failure.
The big disadvantage I can think of is that for a liveaboard, sooner or later it is gonna fill up and need dumping. Probably not a big deal for weekend use as a full season is apparently doable and the typical winter layup (I guess that doesn't happen in the south) gives it enough time to break down all the waste into harmless mulch. But what about when it's time to empty the unit and it was last used six hours ago? I haven't seen one, so maybe it just turns into a big bucket and chucket system while offshore (although you certainly don't want to accidently drop THAT bucket overboard). I'm not sure how easy it is do deal with.
Hey, that disadvantage might turn into an advantage if it gets a lazy sailor out on the water more often for waste management!
Interestingly, from what I've been able to scrub from internet searches, it is really not a smelly system. The exhaust fan pulling out the waste gases probably helps here; although placement of the exhaust might possibly become critical.
Godot- here's a link to a LONG thread over on CSBB about the Airhead toilets
http://www.cs-bb.com/forums/csbbarchives1/index.cgi?read=7302
Speaking of heads.......My groco flushs well but will not pull water up?? Ya gotta use a bucket to fill/flush it but it pumps out great. Checked today and there seems to be very little suction @ the intake of the head when I pumped it.Now....before I go pulling this thing apart....any words of wisdom out there??? I'll trade some injector pump knowledge for a little advice on heads
It sounds rather promising. Still, not quite sure how long term everyday use works (not that I live aboard, or anything, just curious).
Maybe I'll take the dimensions and bring them down to the marina next time I'm there. Now-a-days I studiously avoid the use of the porta-potti as I don't want to bother emptying it. It would be nice (especially on those rare times when my wife is aboard) to have a system I could use without regret.
Today I ran across a page which not only described one guy's experience with the airhead, but also about a simple way of setting up a holding tank that they call the KISS system.
http://www.sailcopress.com/editorial%20MSD.htm
Basic concept is that the holding tank is installed above the water line and waste is pumped to the top of the holding tank. A short hose to the deck provides for deck pumpout. Gravity to a seacock provides at sea dumping. No Y valves. A limited amount of hose required. It seems like a very good idea, provided you have an elevated place to put the tank.
If I where to install something along the KISS line in my boat, the holding tank would have to be high and next to the hull just behind the head. It would provide for good dumping while level or on a starboard tack (and maybe a port tack... would have to check it out); but I wonder at the effect of having 10 or 15 gallons of sewage (ten gallons of water would weigh around 83 lbs; I would think black water would be much higher) in that undesirable location. Maybe if I could find just the right shape tank I could mount it at the bulkhead close to the centerline; but the tank would have to be tall and wide but no more that 6" or so deep. And God help us all if it sprang a leak.
Anything which simplifies this matter has got to be a good thing.
Here is a link -
http://cruisenews.net/db/pagetemplate.php?cat_id=16
Might be a problem in cooler climates. No experience.
Good day all:
Several good topics!
Seawater in the galley: The basic idea is to have a through hull installed as far forward as possible and definately forward of the toilet dicharge. Most yachts will have a sea water intake for the toilet that is suitable and can be T-ed into.
Flushing with fresh water: We did that all the time on a certain J28 I sailed for years. Such a practice keeeps the holding tank odors to a minimum. We began the operation of cleaning the whole system after a pumpout by soaking the holding tank for a week in a solution of white vinegar and fresh water. Repeat often. By summer's end, the "head smell" was gone. (I applied the same energy to the bilges and freshened them up, too.)
To flush the toilet, we used the pressure water system and the head-shower faucet. Spary enough water to flush the bowl and discharge lines. A bowl of the toilet uses about one gallon of water. (After each training cruise on Melissa, we pumpout and I do a similar fresh water+vinegar soak of the toilet bowl, hoses, and tank. I keep the boat liveable... nay... comfy, comfy, comfy!)
The process is practical when coastal cruising. Water and pump out stations are readily available.
Holding tank location: we have a couple of boats in our fleet that have the holding tank installed above the waterline and in the cockpit locker area. Gravity discharge is pretty slick! (offshore, of course.)
Present "best practice" is to have the toilet discharge into the holding tank only. Provide a discharge hose to the deck and to the sea via a pump. We use the Whale Gusher pumps with good results, for example. The discharge can be via a Y-valve or via a second discharge line from the holding tank. I do not believe new boats even have sea-discharge abilities.
General thoughts: Y-valves are notorious for jamming. The shorter and straighter the discharge hoses the better. White vinegar trumps chlorine bleach for evironmental and maintenance reasons. Don't use cheap discharge hose!
I sailed a boat that had a composting head. It was OK. The system requires positive air pressure supplied by a solar powered vent.
Hope there is some useful information in all that.
My job is to frustrate Murphy every day.
Best,
Norman
Quote from: Jack Tar on December 21, 2005, 06:29:00 PM
Add a little vegetable oil now and then to keep the system lubed and seals fresh too.
Hmmm.
I've heard this from a lot of sources, but today I ran across an excellent article on boatbuilding.com: Marine Sanitation: Facts vs. Fokelore (http://boatbuilding.com/article.php/MarineSanitationFactvsFolklore)
They clearly state this is a bad idea and why.
It's very interesting their comments about installing horizontal ventilation, too. I saw on one of the Alberg 30 sites where someone installed a holding tank and they installed two horizontal vents.
Quote from: Captain Smollett on March 04, 2007, 11:35:28 PM
Quote from: Jack Tar on December 21, 2005, 06:29:00 PM
Add a little vegetable oil now and then to keep the system lubed and seals fresh too.
Hmmm.
I've heard this from a lot of sources, but today I ran across an excellent article on boatbuilding.com: Marine Sanitation: Facts vs. Fokelore (http://boatbuilding.com/article.php/MarineSanitationFactvsFolklore)
They clearly state this is a bad idea and why.
Good link John. :)
I had not ever noticed that the original head installation that pre-dated the rules was grandfathered..... My original 1964 Wilcox Critendon head is still serving faithfully aboard Faith. :)
Of course it is now run to a diverter valve that goes to a small (7 gal) holding tank with a pump out boss, or to the seacock to go over the side. Interesting to note that it did not have to be modified (I am sure that since it has been, it can not be legally put back... not that I would want to.)
WRT the other part of the post;
QuoteThey clearly state this is a bad idea and why.
FWIW, I believe it is
good advice for plastic heads, mine however has been in service since 1964, and has been flushed with fresh water and vegetable oil after most underway periods and works well.
The oil does lubricate the leather pump gasket.... and it works much more smoothly after it has been used.
I have not had to rebuild it yet, but I keep the tongue of an old boot onboard for just such an occasion. ;D
I've finally gotten started on my head-pumpout design change. As part of my plans for outfitting the Pretty Gee for long-distance cruising, I wanted to provide a way to empty the holding tank when pumpout facilities were not available.
The way I decided to do it is as follows:
The head, which can be flushed with either raw water from a through-hull or with fresh water via the head sink, now pumps directly into the holding tank. I cut the hose going from the holding tank to the pumpout deck fitting and added a diverter valve to the line. In one position, the holding tank output goes to the pumpout deck fitting, in the other, the deck fitting is isolated and the holding tank output goes to a Whale Gusher diaphragm pump located next to the head itself. The output of this goes to the large seacock and through-hull that was previously used for dumping the head directly to the ocean.
I also cut a hole in the top of the holding tank and added a clear Beckson inspection deck plate. This allows me to check the volume of the holding tank, without having to open the plate. It also allows me to open the plate to clean the tank or pour in chemical treatments.
While this setup no longer allows me to pump the head directly to the sea, I don't see that as a problem. If I am far enough out that I could pump the head out to the sea, I can also dump the holding tank to the sea. If I am too close to land to vent the head directly to the sea, as is often the case, since Buzzards Bay is a No Discharge Zone, I have to use the holding tank anyways.
The main reason, at least as far as I know, for being able to dump the head directly to the sea was because there was no provision for emptying the holding tank outside of a pumpout facility. Since I can now pumpout the tank whenever I want, this shouldn't be a problem.
I hope to have the hoses and pump fully installed this weekend and will post photos when I get a chance.
In the throes of designing (from scratch) the head system for my boat, I'm curious about the holding tank configurations of the boats on SailFar. This is one of those places where compromise really rears it's head (eh hum). So,
What size is your holding tank? Where located?
How emptied (deck pump out only, deck pump out or overboard discharge, etc)?
I've read 0.5 gallon per person per day capacity is adequate assuming it is only used for solid sewage.
Has this been your experience with your system?
How many days before requiring emptying? For how many people?
There will be lots of opinions on tank sizes....most things are obvious...more people = bigger tank, keep tank low, blah blah. One thing I would recomend is a Y valve at your tank discharge with one hose to shore pump out and one to a pump to discharge overboard. I am sure others will disagree, but it gives you the option of NOT directly discharging into an anchorage but still pumping overboard later while 'offshore' in more open waters. Jubilee has a pump and it proved quite useful. It stops you fron 'cheating' while in more confined ereas. There are hand pumps just for that.If you need the model # I can get it tomorrow for ya.
Thanks, Frank. I would like the model of the pump you use. Is it a Whale by any chance? I've seen that one referenced quite a bit for this application.
The plumbing you describe is exactly what I plan. There is NO WAY I will NOT discharge overboard when sufficiently offshore. WIth 4 aboard, there's no other alternative. My concern is having a large enough tank for extended stays near shore but out of range of a pump-out station (or just not wanting to pay for a pump-out every 5 days).
I WAS thinking about not including a diverter valve, however, and just simply plumbing the overboard discharge and the deck pump-out with separate lines off the tank. I've read that some do it this way, so I was wondering what the advantages/disadvantages of the two approaches are. Seems to me at this point basically six of one, half dozen of the other.
The most common aftermarket A-30 holding tank is 14 gallons, which is a bit small for us. I was hoping to get in the 20-25 gallon range - IF I can find a place to put it. Today I saw a picture of one installed under the cabin sole (in the head area of the cabin) and it looked like it might be bigger than the 'standard' spot (under one side of the V-Berth).
Capn Smollett-
I just re-did the head setup on my boat. This is what it looks like now. The head pumps directly into the holding tank—there is no option for pumping the head directly into the sea.
The two diverter valves on the left of the diagram allow me to use either fresh water from the head sink or saltwater via the through-hull to flush the system.
The diverter valve on the right lets me pump out via the deck pumpout fitting or via a Whale Mk 5 Universal diaphragm pump through the seacock and through hull.
From my tests of the system the Whale Mk 5 Universal (http://www.pyacht.net/cgi-local/SoftCart.exe/online-store/scstore/h-whale_mark_5.htm?L+scstore+ypqv0329ff556c55+1183047892) leaves about half a gallon in the holding tank, which I believe is mainly the contents of the hose flushing back when you stop pumping.
Even though I can't discharge the head directly into the sea, I don't see that as a real problem, as if I'm far enough out that I could discharge the head directly to the sea, I can pumpout the holding tank to the sea instead. This is far more useful IMHO than being able to discharge the head directly into the sea, as I can go out past the limit and empty the holding tank very easily, without having to find a pumpout facility or boat, or pay for it. If I'm cruising in a remote area for an extended period of time, I can empty the holding tank as necessary, and don't have to pollute the coastal waters at all.
I wouldn't recommend plumbing the overboard discharge and deck pumpout lines separately, as most tanks don't have two pickup fittings, and you'd have to add one to the tank. It can be difficult to add a fitting to a polyethylene tank, which most of the commercially available tanks are made of, which doesn't leak.
Also, IMHO, the more fittings you have in the tank, the more chances you have of a leak. The single hose from the holding tank pumpout on my boat goes to the bottom common input on a diverter valve that is higher than the top of the tank. This prevent sewage from sitting in the diverter valve.
(http://www.dankim.com/files/head.jpg)
Quote from: AdriftAtSea on June 27, 2007, 09:04:05 PM
I wouldn't recommend plumbing the overboard discharge and deck pumpout lines separately, as most tanks don't have two pickup fittings, and you'd have to add one to the tank. It can be difficult to add a fitting to a polyethylene tank, which most of the commercially available tanks are made of, which doesn't leak.
Thanks, but I will either be building my own custom tank or purchasing a custom tank, designed specifically for the Alberg 30, from Raritan. Even if I purchase the Raritan tank, I will have to add the fittings since the tank does not come with them installed.
So, I can pretty much do what I want as far as fittings go.
Quote
Also, IMHO, the more fittings you have in the tank, the more chances you have of a leak.
You actually have more connections, and chances to leak (3 vs 2), with a diverter valve. Plus, the valve itself is a potential point of failure.
It depends on how you add the tank fittings. The tank fittings on most commercial tanks are on the side, and as such are potential leak points. If the fittings are through the top of the tank, then they are very unlikely to leak.
With the diverter valve setup I have, the only time there is a potential leak problem at the diverter valve is when I am actively pumping out the tank, either via the deck fitting or the Whale pump, since it is higher than the top of the tank. So, I only have one possible leak point at the tank.
Granted, I do run the risk of it leaking at the diverter valve, but don't believe that will be an issue, due to the fact that I have it setup to minimize the chance of sewage sitting in either the hoses leading to the Whale pump or deck fitting or the diverter valve itself. The input from the holding tank pumpout fitting is the bottom port on a Y-shaped diverter valve, so gravity will drain the hoses back into the holding tank.
Quote from: AdriftAtSea on June 27, 2007, 11:09:28 PM
It depends on how you add the tank fittings. The tank fittings on most commercial tanks are on the side, and as such are potential leak points. If the fittings are through the top of the tank, then they are very unlikely to leak.
Okay. Either of the tank strategies I am exploring involve top mounted fittings due to space constraints. I'm not going to be using a generic commercial tank from WM or other supplier. This will be either one specifically designed for a specific location in an A-30 or one I build myself.
Don't forget to put in a cleanout/inspection port for the holding tank. This can be a very useful thing to have if one of your guests flushes something that gets stuck in the tank.
Well, here's the rough photos of the installation.
Photo #1
The new pumpout diverter valve, attached to the forward side of the partition between the head and the holding tank areas. You can also see the re-routed hose that allows the head to pump directly into the holding tank. Currently, the handle is in the pump out to sea position. To make the head secure for in-shore use, you would have to lock the handle in the opposite position or lock the handle on the seacock in the closed position.
Note: the common port of the diverter valve that connects to the holding tank points down and is higher than the top of the holding tank, making it very unlikely to leak or for any black water to remain sitting in the valve of hose.
(http://www.flauntintimates.com/assets/head1.jpg)
Photo #2
The Whale Mk 5 Diaphragm pump is located in the same compartment as the head. It is a tight fit, but was really the only way I could rig it. The new Whale Mk 5 Universal diaphragm pump connects one port of the diverter valve to the seacock and through-hull, allowing me to pumpout the tank while at sea. The hoses are highest at the point it crosses the partition, which should allow black water to drain down through the pump and down to the through-hull—minimizing the amount of standing water in the system.
The pump is mounted on a 3/4" block of plywood, which is attached to the platform the head sits on.
(http://www.flauntintimates.com/assets/head2.jpg)
Photo #3
An overview of the head installation. You can see the slot I cut for the Whale pump's removable handle. I will be cleaning up the slot and adding a face plate to it this weekend.
(http://www.flauntintimates.com/assets/head4.jpg)
I see no pictures senor
LOL... had a typo... a capital JPG, instead of jpg... darn linux server... case-sensitive names.
Capn Smollett:
My Cape Dory 25D has the kind of setup you mentioned in one of your posts: a pump-out fitting and an overboard discharge, without a diverter valve.
My 12-gal. holding tank has one outgoing line that runs through a Whale pump (with a loop in the tube), to a seacock and hence overboard. I never use this feature, although it is available should I need it and be far enough from shore.
Because Buzzards Bay is a no-discharge zone, I keep the handle of the seacock locked shut with a permanent wire tie--which the USCG considers a permanent seal.
The tank also has a second tube that goes to a standard pump-out fitting, which is what I use currently.
This holding tank does NOT have an inspection port, and I would certainly encourage you to put one into your system. I haven't had any disasters yet, but once I opened the inspection port on the tank to discover ... that I was very lucky it was a dead-calm day. Ugh!
--Joe
Quoteonce I opened the inspection port on the tank to discover ... that I was very lucky it was a dead-calm day. Ugh!
That's why I installed an inspection port with a clear deck plate—so I can see through it before opening it. :D
Capt S....OOOPS..forgot about the pump till today. It's a " Henderson Mark V" waste systems,self priming pump. Has a shut-off valve built in. Works great.
I'm using the same plumbing arrangement as AdriftAtSea but the tank is a Raritan Compact that fits around the head. It iis permanently installed but can be set up so that one could remove it like a porta potty and carry it to the dump station. At five gallons it is too small for some but the big advantage I see is not loosing any locker space.
pv
Hadn't seen that Raritan tank - that's a good idea, IMO, making it possible to carry off the boat.
How has the Raritan head been working for you? Have you used it a lot? Any problems?
So far so good. Since I'm single handing I don't need to pump out too often despite its small size. I love the way it fits around the head and uses otherwise wasted space. The stock holding tank that came on later 27s used up a lot of locker space I would rather use for other storage. Frankly I'm more concerned about some of my rube goldberg plumbing leaking rather than the tank.
That wraparound design seems like an optimal solution for a small boat - kudos to whoever thought of it! According to their website, you can use it with other brands of heads, too.
http://www.raritaneng.com/products/holding_tanks/compact_tanks.html
Manual: http://www.raritaneng.com/pdf_files/holding_tank/L326v1101.pdf
That's exactly how Seraph, our Cape Dory 25D, is plumbed Except that the holding tank overboard discharge line shares, via a Y valve, the same discharge port as the electric bilge pump out the transom. I've only used it once as a test when the tank was empty and I filled it with water. I would imagine that it would require that I clear out the line after use by pumping bilge water through the line.
I do like the fact that there is no way what so ever to inadvertently pump the head directly overboard.
Strange that it took me this long. I keep a spray bottel of Liquid Laundry Detergent and water in the head area to clean. Nothing else any more. Very cheep and works quite well.
I have a quick question, its sad my first post on this forum is in the toilet thread. :-\
Does the toilet suppose to constantly have water in it? I pump the lever and it makes the water become clear but it never drains down to a level that I don't fear it pouring out when the boat has a nice lean going on. I usually have about 5-6 inches of water in the bowl and just fear thats too much, yet I haven't had any come out while out in 6'+ seas so I might be overly worried but just don't want a mess.
Quote from: Volksdraggin on December 27, 2008, 12:52:11 PM
Does the toilet suppose to constantly have water in it? I pump the lever and it makes the water become clear but it never drains down to a level that I don't fear it pouring out when the boat has a nice lean going on. I usually have about 5-6 inches of water in the bowl and just fear thats too much, yet I haven't had any come out while out in 6'+ seas so I might be overly worried but just don't want a mess.
When you have pumped enough to clear the bowl, pump another 15 strokes or so (depending on your plumbing length) to clear waste from the line.
Now close the intake valve on the head and continue to pump the remaining water out of the bowl. (With the valve closed no more water should be coming in...) You should be able to get the bowl pretty much empty.
I feel silly, I think I left the valve open when it was pumped and my entire tank is full of sea water, this is the only logical explanation for it not draining out even after I had the tank pumped just a week ago. Any other suggestions?
I have a Lavac system with 3 three way valves. I can pump to the holding tank, pump directly over the side and pump the holding tank over the side. If you go to James Baldwin's site www.atomvoyages.com you will find info on how to do this.
Dan
To ckean head, don't use a brush as it will smell for a long time. get -
1 qt spray bottle
liquid laundry detergent
Mix 1/2 cap into a full bottle of water.
Spray head before and after each use until clean.
Keeps everything smelling nice.