sailFar.net

http://www.jsward.com/steering/index.shtml

Ok, so I'm putting together the stuff so we can set up sheet to tiller steering on Tehani. 

Line-check- got some.

Small blocks- check- got some.

Surgical tubing- nope- no gots.

Simple- just run to town and buy some surgical tubing, right?

WRONG!!!

I've been to drug stores, lumber yards, Lowes, Walmart, tackle shops, welding supply shops all to no avail. My marine wholesaler doesn't have it, nor does WEST Marine nor BOAT U/S.

SO wherenthe heck do I buy 4 feet of 1/4 OD surgical tubing????

How about @ a medical or hospital supply

I'm guessing that you want surgical tubing because it is strefchy, not because it's tubular...  Can you substitute bungy cord?

Yes.  I use a bungy cord. But the surgical tubing is recommended due to superior resistance to decay by sunlight.  So, a bungy cord won't last as long.

There is a major difference in the stretch characteristics of bungee vs surgical tubing. Biungee has what is referred to as "non-linear" stretch. It doesn't stretch evenly

Surgical tubing has been referred to as having "linear" stretch caracteristics- it stretches evenly and has no memory- when stretched and relaxed it returns to it's original length. This is LATEX tubing. Silicone tubing doesn't have that memory- when stretched it may return ALMOST to it's original length, but not quite. And the next time it may stay a bit longer. Not good.

So the preferred stuff is latex surgical tubing. Apparently from those I've talked to, black holds up slightly better than the amber, but the amber canbe rubbed with sun block (no joke) to extend it's life.

Part of this I picked up from reading and part of it I discovered from using the surgical stuff on hawaian slings and sea lances.


Carry spare tubing anyway :)

Charlie,
This was the first listing from a Google search. There were more. Scuba/Dive shops may have it in stock.
Larry Wilson
Richmond,Va.

http://www.reefscuba.com/surgical_tubing.htm

Quote from: CharlieJ on February 22, 2006, 09:39:42 PM
There is a major difference in the stretch characteristics of bungee vs surgical tubing. Biungee has what is referred to as "non-linear" stretch. It doesn't stretch evenly

Technically, nothing stretches 'evenly' if elongated enough.  Said another way, everything has a finite true Hooke's Law regime.

I don't think with sheet to tiller steering we are getting too far into the non-linear regime.  I use a bungy (sp??) cord for my STT arrangment, and it works.  Maybe not as well.  But there is certainly nothing wrong with using it this way in the case of either (a) just starting out and you don't have all the materials or (b) an emergency.  ;)

All I'm saying is don't let not being able to find surgical tubing right away delay your trying sheet-to-tiller steering methods.

Stumbled onto a whole roll of the stuff in the back shelves of our ACE Hardware. THEY didn't know they had it :)

So I have some to play with now. I'll let folks know how it goes when I get a chance to try it.

 can you email me the directions so I can see if it would be workable on my South Coast 22?
I want to try and build a copy of the wind vane like Robert Grahm used on the DOVE....it just looked simple enough to build and repair while cruising along.
thanks,
Bill

try these links-

http://www.solopublications.com/sailariq.htm

http://www.jsward.com/steering/index.shtml

http://www.todspages.net/SSa-SelfSteering.html

Also, here's a link to a forum devoted to vane steering-

http://cruisenews.net/cgi-bin/windvane/windvane.pl

 KEWL thanks.
Bill

Self Steering- necessary for every blue water navigation (or so it looks to me) I have experimented with sheet to tiller and I think I can do that now on my little Compac. Question- has anyone done sheet to wheel? Is it as effective as a complicated but good Windvane (Monitor etc...)?
I'm looking to go up in size a little when I go blue water, and wheel steering seems to be very popular....

Quote from: newt on June 18, 2008, 11:24:12 PM

wheel steering seems to be very popular....

Not in general for the 'go small, go now' crowd.

Wheel steering adds complexity and points of failure.  Lots of arguments against it, especially on a smaller boat.

But, to your original question.  One way to use sheet-to steering on a wheel steered boat would be to ship the emergency tiller (you'd have one, right?), and rig the steering lines to that. 

Another (more complex?) way: tie steering lines to whatever the steering lines from the windvane would be connected to on your particular steering setup.

I am just guessing, but I cannot imagine tying the steering lines directly to any point on the wheel would work (and you'd have to reverse the lines from the way the sheet-to-tiller diagrams are drawn).

I've not had a sailboat with a wheel on it but many of my friends have and I've been the driver on quite a few wheel boats.  All of my sail boats have had tiller so I'm not sure how much of what I have to say is based on personnel experience ingrained into my system and how much is unbiased.  That being said, wheels always seem backwards to me and I have never been able just automatically steer one.  They always seem to either under steer or over steer where a tiller that is tied directly to a rudder post always seem to be normal or the same after a a few minutes of steering them.  It's obvious that there are more places and situations that can give you a problem with a wheel, it's simpler to install a windvane to a tiller.  Tillers meet KISS principals, wheels don't.  The only advantage I can see to a wheel over a tiller is that having people in the cockpit doesn't interfer with the wheel and having a load of people in the cockpit with a tiller can get to be an out and out pain.  I would never have a wheel on my boat.

I'm posting this link to our Triton maintainance & improvement site.  It contains a lot of information which has been accumulated over the last 45 years on a lot of subjects.  I was reading (can't sleep) thru some of the old posts here when I sumbled on to the mast stepping discussions and was reminded of a series of pictures that I had posted on the Triton site showing how to step a mast using two buddy boats.  The only thing I might add would be use spinnaker halyards as they turn and don't bind and yes you can step a keel stepped mast using this system, you just have to get your 4-1 purchase high enough (extra 6 ft) b4 you start.  Right under the spreaders has always worked for me and I have done it dozens of times.  Until just recently it was the only way sailboats on the GSL had to get their sticks up and down. We have about
400 sailboats.

WWW.tritonclass.org/mir/mirindex.htm

Just too add my two bits, Ive owned tiller and both a reverse wheel and standered wheel. with the tiller I always had to rig something to it to leave the helm witch was a pain when going up on the fordeck to hank on the jib or to do anything away from the helm, With both wheels it was just a matter of setting the sails right and locking the wheel. In average winds I'm able to leave the helm for extended periods of time, Remember that cruzin is not about the speed but being comfortable. I enjoy both tiller and wheel steering but if I had to choose it would be wheel steering.not only can I stand and steer but the pedestal gives me an anchor point to hold on to while at the helm, Boats are like life everything is a compromise. ;D

It takes about2 minutes to have my windvane driving my tiller and I know it drives better than locking the wheel down, in fact it's the best driver I've ever rode with.....

Quote from: sailorflo on June 19, 2008, 08:33:37 AM

Just too add my two bits, Ive owned tiller and both a reverse wheel and standered wheel. with the tiller I always had to rig something to it to leave the helm witch was a pain when going up on the fordeck to hank on the jib or to do anything away from the helm, With both wheels it was just a matter of setting the sails right and locking the wheel. In average winds I'm able to leave the helm for extended periods of time,

Flo,  unless you are talking about these different steering systems on the same boat, I wonder how much of the difference you observed is boat specific - yaw resistance, tracking ability, rig balance, etc. 

If different boats, there was a lot more different than just the steering "linkage" that would effect you being able to leave the helm for a bit.

my dos centavos....
first, my disclosure:  i have wheel steering.  all things being equal, i'd prefer a tiller.  but it's what i've got and i've grown to semi-appreciate the wheel.  it is more subject to failure.  however, it's a very simple system and the risk of failure can be greatly reduced by regular, common sense maintenance.   also, to some extent, it provides steering redundancy as you've got an emergency tiller for backup.
as noted above, i too have found that a boat with a wheel seems to hold its course better.....there is no logic to this, but putting the brake on the wheel is much more course friendly than tying off a tiller.   however, sheet-to-tiller steering is way more efficient/effective.  my luck with sheet-to-wheel steering has been mixed a best.
one thing that the wheel is nice for is singlehanding maneuvers like sailing up to your mooring or parking in a slip...a little brake on the wheel and you can head forward and know that the boat is going to pretty much stay on course.  but again, all things considered, i'd prefer a tiller.

I think I got the question answered- for some reason (probably linkage issues) sheet to tiller steering works a lot better than sheet to wheel. Would it make sense to mount a emergency tiller on a wheel steering boat with a shortened handle and use that for self steering over the long run?  I was just looking at the older Baba  30's and Shannon 28's with an eye to convert one to a world cruiser the KISS way.

Still dreaming and thinkin....

Newt,  what do you do if you loose your rudder?  Sheet to tiller, or wheel, not so hot then... If you are thinking seriously about extensive cruising, think about a windvane for steering.  That way you also have an emergency rudder and a system that works much better. Just my thoughts on the subject.... I have a
friend who lost her rudder while single handling from SFran to Hilo.  She was tickled pink that she had a

emergency tiller as part of her windvane....

Interesting point Tjim.  I have heard of some training exercises that you sail without a rudder.  Have you ever tried it? But the emergency tiller aspect would be an advantage of having a windvane.

If your talking about trimming and shifting weight to hold a course that's a whole differerent ball game
than steering without a rudder, but yeah, holding a course except down wind is not a big deal.. Steering infers more than slow modest course changes....

Sailing without using the rudder is quite different from sailing without a rudder.  In one, the center of lateral resistance doesn't move, in the other, the center of lateral resistance has shifted forward, due to the loss of the aft end of the resistance plane. :)

There's a good video of sailing without using the rudder to steer the boat on youtube that a friend of mine did.  You can see it here (http://youtube.com/watch?v=SwySzZR1ZQ8).

Quote from: newt on June 19, 2008, 01:42:58 PM
Interesting point Tjim.  I have heard of some training exercises that you sail without a rudder.  Have you ever tried it? But the emergency tiller aspect would be an advantage of having a windvane.

Quote from: TJim on June 19, 2008, 12:47:03 PM

what do you do if you loose your rudder?  Sheet to tiller, or wheel, not so hot then... If you are thinking seriously about extensive cruising, think about a windvane for steering. 

Not all vane designs have a separate rudder.  The one I'm designing as "first try" won't - the steering lines connect to the tiller.  This design comes from Lechter's book.

I guess losing a rudder is a bad deal, vane or no vane.  There's been vane failures, too...so an equally valid question (in my mind...I'm the one that thought of it   :P ) is "how do you set up self steering if the vane fails/breaks?"

Pat Henry used sheet-to-tiller steering on her circumnavigation with her autopilot went TU for the umpteenth time.  Earlier in her voyage, she had to hand steer because of a similar failure, but when she finally tried s-t-t steering, she commented that she was amazed at how well it worked and wished she had tried it earlier.

I, like several others here, have used sheet to tiller steering, and I, too, am amazed at how well it works along with how SIMPLE it is.  Until I build (or buy) a vane, sheet to tiller steering how I get relief from the tiller when under sail.  The only time I've had trouble with it, and this was only because I was not set up for this condition, was light wind on a deep broad reach.

Belt-n-suspenders good.  My plan for my boat (ymmv) is to have a vane as the "primary" self-steering device with sheet to tiller as backup.  I don't plan to carry an electronic autopilot ever.

Adrift,
Thanks for the video- I am going out now and will try it out. Capt. S.  and TJim, thank you for your advice and expert opinion. My sheet to tiller system is being set up tonight, I will share some pics later, whenever I get home.
Yea haw- its off to the docks!

Quote from: newt on June 19, 2008, 06:16:29 PM

Capt. S. ... thank you for your advice and expert opinion.

Expert?  Hardly.  Just an opinionated guy on the Internet.  I like to blow off about what works for me but you've got to remember - I seem to specialize at swimming against the current.  I guess I revel in holding the minority view.

Fair Winds, and I'm looking forward to hearing about how your self-steering set-up works out.

:)

Smollet- what vane are you building? I'm in the process of building one from Belchers book on windvanes. Ours will also only attach to the tiller, with no blade in the water. 

I have the control table, direction setting table and vane all built, just need to put those together and balance the vane. Then figure a mounting on the boat since we don't have a stern pulpit, nor do we want one.

Capn Smollett-

Just remember neither sheet to tiller lines or windvanes work when you're under power.  THat is one advantage of an electronic autopilot.  :D

Quote from: AdriftAtSea on June 19, 2008, 10:33:20 PM

Just remember neither sheet to tiller lines or windvanes work when you're under power.  THat is one advantage of an electronic autopilot.  :D

No doubt.  But I have two little autopilots (they aren't electric, but I do have to feed them) who both like to steer.  I just give one of them the tiller when I need a break while motoring.   :P

 ;D

Laura likes our tiller pilot so well for powering that she claims-"If I were to EVER have another kid, I'd name him Navico"

And she HATES powering.

;D

Why won't hydrovane windvane work under power....I haven't tried it but I can't see any reason it wouldn't work.....in fact if you locked it down and the tiller down.  It would probably work as a wind directed tiller.....??????

Quote from: CharlieJ on June 19, 2008, 10:32:39 PM
Smollet- what vane are you building? I'm in the process of building one from Belchers book on windvanes. Ours will also only attach to the tiller, with no blade in the water. 

I have the control table, direction setting table and vane all built, just need to put those together and balance the vane. Then figure a mounting on the boat since we don't have a stern pulpit, nor do we want one.

I'm going to try the "Running Lines" horizontal axis vane outlined on p 206 for some experience before I attempt anything more complicated.  It also has no blade in the water.

Probably be a project for next summer, as this summer is new head/holding tank (the head came in this week...sitting in the box in our closet  ;D ) and bow roller plus some other odds and ends.   I'm supposed to be that boat NOW, but a work project ran over and I'm not going until in the morning.

Quote from: TJim on June 19, 2008, 11:05:35 PM
Why won't hydrovane windvane work under power....I haven't tried it but I can't see any reason it wouldn't work.....in fact if you locked it down and the tiller down.  It would probably work as a wind directed tiller.....??????

Never tried it, of course, but I think the problem with powering on a wind vane is that vanes are controlled by apparent wind.  Motoring is going to add a huge forward wind component which should pretty effectively confuse the vane.

Besides, wind vanes need wind to steer, and why would you be powering if there was a breeze?

Actually when you motor you create your own wind.  If there is nothing but apparent wind the vane will still read it and maintain a course relative to the apparent wind and the course you set up to steer. It don't need much wind, just more vane in the air and maybe less weight on the windvane.

Quote from: TJim on June 19, 2008, 11:24:18 PM

If there is nothing but apparent wind the vane will still read it and maintain a course relative to the apparent wind and the course you set up to steer. It don't need much wind, just more vane in the air and maybe less weight on the windvane.

i don't think that's correct...given the parameters you propose.

*If* there is nothing but apparent wind, ie no true wind, then there is no input for the vane.  The apparent wind is dead on the nose all the time.   If the boat yaws, this wind "yaws" with her, and there nothing to push the vane to get her back on course.

Now if the wind is slightly blowing, very light air, that light air "could" provide an input.  However, if the wind is blowing 1 kt true and you are motoring 5 kts, that wind on your nose is still WAY bigger.  The net apparent wind will be the wind you have to trim your vane for, and again, slight yawing by the boat brings MOST of this apparent wind with her.

In any kind of wind where the vane MIGHT be expected to work while motoring, you probably would be sailing.

Well the only reason to be motoring would be no wind.... so all you will have is apparent wind and in that case it would always be from dead ahead and would be equal to your speed, say 5 knots, and that is more than ample to steer you windvane and cause it to maintain your course which would be dead ahead.
Now don't that make sense???  If not explain why not??? Tnx

Quote from: TJim on June 19, 2008, 11:43:02 PM
Well the only reason to be motoring would be no wind.... so all you will have is apparent wind and in that case it would always be from dead ahead and would be equal to your speed, say 5 knots, and that is more than ample to steer you windvane and cause it to maintain your course which would be dead ahead.
Now don't that make sense???  If not explain why not??? Tnx

  Wow Tim, that was a head scratcher for a minute....  ;D

The wind vane needs a shift in apparent wind to make a correction.... if your only wind was apparent (motoring), it would not shift but appear to be directly on the bow all the time.... so any shift would immediately be negated when your direction changed and would not be present long enough to make a correction.....

  However, if you had a windvane that was controlled by an electric autohelm... the windvane might be made to work while motoring  and use much less current to steer then just the electric autohelm would use.

Yes, but I'd imagine the electronic variety is better at listening to directions and doesn't get bored as easily. ;)

Quote from: Captain Smollett on June 19, 2008, 10:35:55 PM

Quote from: AdriftAtSea on June 19, 2008, 10:33:20 PM

Just remember neither sheet to tiller lines or windvanes work when you're under power.  THat is one advantage of an electronic autopilot.  :D

No doubt.  But I have two little autopilots (they aren't electric, but I do have to feed them) who both like to steer.  I just give one of them the tiller when I need a break while motoring.   :P

I agree with everything you said......however I think any shift of the magnitude you would get in a dead wind situation (usually flat water) could be corrected with body weight shift in the cockpit.  It would be like tieing the tiller down on a well balanced boat/tiller.....and yep you can steer a hydrovane with an autovane without working it hardly at all....use a small one that don't draw a lot of power for windless situations and you get two birds with one stone....Just for info my vane will steer straight down wind
in 5 or 6 knots of wind and that's not much relative wind....

Quote from: TJim on June 20, 2008, 12:42:20 AM

however I think any shift of the magnitude you would get in a dead wind situation (usually flat water) could be corrected with body weight shift in the cockpit. 

If while motoring the boat yaws for any reason, the apparent wind goes with it.  There is no correction from the vane.  How can there be? The boat is generating the wind.  If you are correcting by shifting ballast, then the vane is not doing the steering, you are.

Right?

Quote

my vane will steer straight down wind in 5 or 6 knots of wind and that's not much relative wind....

The difference is that that wind is blowing from a 'steady' direction no matter which direction your boat is pointing.  So, if your boat turns, the angle of the wind on the vane (zero only if the boat is on-course) changes.

It's the angle of the wind relative to the boat (actually the vane, but it's locked) that makes it steer.  If there is no wind direction that is independent of the boat heading, there is no steering by the vane.

It's a frame of reference problem.  The vane has to respond to something "outside" the boat's frame of reference.  The apparent wind you have due to motoring at 5kts is only IN the boat's frame of reference.

Bottom line:  Do the experiment.  You have a vane, try using it while motoring in a calm.  Hypothesis, test, conclusion.  It's what makes sailing FUN.   ;D

You are right.....OK get this, you may never see it again......I AM WRONG.....Darn, getting senile in my old age, that's twice this year...hehehehehe...At least I got my head straight.... I do think I'd have a heck of a wait to try it on SFran bay this summer.....no wind flat water,,,,,rite!!!!!

Trip report-Yee Haw!! I don't care what anyone says, these forums are a great place to improve your sailing knowledge!
Got out of the marina yesterday used just oars (my outboard sitting back there high up on my pulpit just has happy as it could be). Using the tiller tamer on a run- Ok but still have to play with it because of light winds. So lets see- I pull out a bunch of assorted bundgy cords, some line and three pulleys and a bunch of  brass snaps.  Oh yeah, a wood block to attach to my tiller with an eyebolt down the middle. Wind isn't doing much, and with the sun setting I better get this thing going. I set it up like the Oar Club website, and also like the Flicka website. Hmm, nothing happening- oh take the tiller tamer off :)
Still nothing, but the boat sure is tracking well... Its getting dark. I get a jackline attached. (solo) Its still staying right on the compass nose. About 2130 the wind fills in- 4.5 knots and the compass acts like its glued there. Will be coming to a little bay soon where I will drop the hook. I watch the depth- 12 feet then 11...8 7 getting shallow pretty fast. I can see the shore with my flashlight....but sense I'm not driving I craw up quickly and drop the hook. It sets with about 50 out. The depth is 5.6 feet...I play a bit more out and cleat it like there is no tomorrow.
Now the wind blows. Even though I am protected by cliffs it whistles trough my shrouds.  I hear the clunk of the dink as it wanders behind me. I get up three times to check the hook and once to put a second line on the dink.
Next morning I dingy to shore, look at an old shipwreck and take in the sunrise.  Now I am on a close reach but the sheet to tiller still works! it makes me much more tolerant of a fitful winds,because I am not up there getting baked when the wind slows. I am in the cabin eating grapes and taking sightings and plotting fixes! What an unbelievable luxury!
The best part, however is yet to come. Coming into the marina I dose the jib, but the wind has changed to a run and I don't want to be running in the slips. With my pilot working I take down the main to just a storm sail, effectively slabing it while sailing! I can control the tiller while doing this by just moving the boom. Kind of working it in reverse.  I jump down into the cockpit just in time to guide it into my slip- 1.2 knots and decreasing. Then I leave my tiller, jump on the dock, grab the shrouds and stop my boat. TA DAW...sailing alone and without the outboard- thank you very much!
And instead of owing the academy- I owe it all to you guys- and the man upstairs. 10 hours of sailing to get to a deserted island used to be a chore, now its nothing but fun! I think next time I will bring either a bunch of good books or a partner for cards.

Sweet isn't it?  ;D

Sounds really great Newt. One point though- surgical tubing makes a much better elastic for S.T.T steering than bungie cords.

Almost magical how the set up just sails her along eh? We've used it for up to 36 hours at a stretch- wonderful.

Sorry I kinda waxed poetic...
Its just the best two days of sailing I ever had. All my kids called me afterwards to make sure I was still alive :)
Does anyone in this group live in Utah and have a wheel? Now I want to try wheel to boom self steering- I will set your boat up for free!
Feeling very much like a mad scientist...

I have a couple friend at the south GSL marina I could hook you up with...I have two real good friends that make the trip to Berkeley to sail with me on my Triton that have wheels.  One has a Catalina 30 and the other has a Lancer 30 both with wheels. I can probably hook you up with one or both!!! TJijm

I am planning  on sailing there this next weekend T Jim. I would be there sometime Saturday morning if all goes to plan. I would love to meet them and discuss my latest ideas.  Are they into self steering, KISS or anything else we do around here? ;D
I plan on spending the night just north of the spit on Antelope, then riding the winds due south to the marina.  I hope the thermals are active...

Came across an old story on the site starting, I think, with Capt Smollett, who has an Alberg 30 like me. I am going to give this method a try on my boat before I lash out on a vane and hope the Capt. sees this post.

I hope to stop off at New Bern on my way up as I have talked of in the intro section.

Would be grateful for any advice etc and hope to catch up with you someday.

Owen Zeimer

Here's a link to an excellent online write up on Sheet to tiller. Works great once you figure it out.

http://www.jsward.com/steering/index.shtml

Hi Owen,

I've used sheet-to-tiller to great effect on my smaller small boat (an 18 footer), and I've used it on an offshore run on the Alberg.

Definitely worth a try...

Hi Allan,

I spent a long time experimenting with sheet-to-tiller steering and found that it worked well sailing upwind, but not downwind. Here are two more websites that discuss how to do it. I posted a longer list here in a similar thread a while ago, but some of those sites seem to have been taken down.

The first site is very good, and a good supplement to the J.S. Ward site posted above.

http://www.solopublications.com/sailariq.htm (http://www.solopublications.com/sailariq.htm)
$$$

You might also want to look at John Letcher's classic book, Self-Steering for Sailing Craft, which is readily available used through the web.

On my boat, I got better results using the jib sheet than the mainsheet, but I think that's because I have mid-boom sheeting for the main. The key to the system is to get your sails perfectly balanced and practice, practice, practice.

Last year, thanks to Dan ("Adriftatsea") from this board who installed the wiring, I started using a Raymarine ST2000 tiller pilot. It made holding a course so easy that I didn't do much experimenting with sheet-to-tiller. The autopilot is a battery-eater, but I mostly used it when under power.

Maybe this season I'll pursue my experiments.

Good luck.

--Joe

Edit:  Link Removed Because web site contains stolen content

Of course, the tiller pilot can also be used as a "dumb" steering device, by powering it off after getting the tiller in position, much like a tiller comb would be used. :)

A lot of how successful rigging sheet-to-tiller steering will be depends on the boat.  An Alberg 30, being a full keel design, should have an easier time of it than does my boat, which steers like a giant sailing dinghy... :)

This subject that been gnawing at me for some time.  Once had a model boat that had sheet to tiller steering.  Hooked it up and across a pond she would go, as long as didn't have a complete wind shift.  Can't remember how it worked but will follow this lead and who knows
Melvin

MRB:

Your model boat probably utilized a Braine gear, a device that didn't adapt itself well to larger boats, although I can't remember why. The Braine gear is one of the components of several self-steering systems, mostly wind vanes.

--Joe

It may be that it doesn't generate sufficient force to deal with the loads created by a larger boat. That's the main reason for servo-pendulum and trim-tab wind vane designs.

The size of the vessel is less important than the balance. If a boat, no matter the size, is difficult to balance, it will be difficult to steer with an auto-pilot or a wind vane or sheet-to-tiller/wheel.

As a general rule, if you cannot get the boat to maintain a course with the tiller tied off for short periods using just the sails, you're going to have difficulties getting sheet-to-tiller to work well. I've only just started experimenting on the Cape Dory 25D, and have had several days of enjoyment learning some of the ins and outs. A previous boat - 18' gaff catboat - would sail wonderfully so long as I had just the right amount of sail up - a boat with an 18' boom and a 16' gaff. By comparison, the Cape Dory is remarkably forgiving. Most of the work is getting the boat to balance well, before adding the sheet-to-tiller to actually steer the course.

A comparison boat was my Skipper 21, an 18' sloop, which couldn't keep a course except under motor, and not always then. The only course it could almost maintain under sheet-to-tiller was dead to windward, and only if it was blowing enough to require a bit of a reef (roller reefing, yuck.)

On both boats I used a Ricer Tensioner, which is a simple 3:1/4:1 block and tackle using surgical tubing (from drug store) to give some elasticity to windward, and another length of surgical tubing to tie the tiller off to leeward. The tensioner is attached to the windward coaming, the tiller, and the fall is attached to the sheet (which is turned across the cockpit using a block, or two with a turning block on the windward coaming, to increase the mechanical advantage.) I first saw the description in a column by Bruce Bingham in Cruising World, but it's not in my copy of Cruising Worlds Workbench book. I'll be building a new Ricer tensioner for the CD, just haven't gotten around to it yet...

Quote from: Amgine on March 22, 2009, 01:33:38 AM
The size of the vessel is less important than the balance. If a boat, no matter the size, is difficult to balance, it will be difficult to steer with an auto-pilot or a wind vane or sheet-to-tiller/wheel.

Grog to Amgine for identifying the most important issue.

My a/p can steer the boat in all kinds of conditions, but some work on sail trim and balance will greatly reduce a/p motion and associated electrical power requirement.

Dan:

I think you're right about the Braine gear (I can't seem to find the passage in my library copy of Bill Belcheer's Wind-Vane Self-Steering, but I'm sure that's where I read it.

Amgine:

Interesting that you had an 18-foot gaff-rigged cat before getting the 25D. Was it a Marshall Sanderling? I'm curious because that was my boat before I got my 25D.

I'm also using surgical tubing and pulleys to the sheets for my sheet-to-tiller setup. When I was sailing with a working jib (100 percent), it worked pretty well when the steering line was attached to the mainsheet. However, once I got a 130 percent genny, I found that it was more important to get feedback from the jibsheet.

To do that, I relied on approach used by "Myrmade" in his Pearson Aerial Page (the first of the two weblinks I posted above). I led the jib sheet across the cockpit, across the leeward winch to the windward winch. Then I tied the control line to the now transverse sheet, using a small vang to adjust it. A pulley on the pushpit translated the fore-and-aft movement into the side-to-side movement needed to guide the tiller.

My biggest problem was finding a way to reduce friction while pivoting the sheet at the leeward winch and bring it across the cockpit. I tried tying a block to the leeward winch, but the sheet was rubbing against my teak coaming. (This is all on the website: The Arial is very similar to a 25D.) I haven't solved the problem yet.

Keep us posted on your success or failure.

--Joe

Amgine—

Yes, balancing the sails is important, but many larger boats, once they start to heel a bit generate forces that overwhelm a pure wind vane's ability to compensate for. It also depends heavily on the hull design.  Some are such that they generate a lot of helm at relatively low heel angles.

I'm taking my self steering lines which I use aboard my Compac and going to try it on a charter that we are going to this spring. Should be interesting. I never got this much interest when I mentioned tiller to sheet steering before... maybe its my breath mints, or lack thereof.
Mark

AdriftAtSea: That is, in essence, what balancing the sail plan is - getting the right combination of sail areas and trim for the amount of heel. My gaffer was nearly half as wide as it was long, and while it didn't heel *much* a rather small change in heel had a dramatic affect on the weather helm.

Oldrig: No, actually, it was a Benford cat with a full keel built in cement. Wonderful boat for a strings person, but not as fast as the Sanderling.

My last attempt last year had too much friction in it in, too. This year I plan to use a block on a loupe over the leeward winch, well above the coaming, and the ricer tensioner on the leeward side. I was also thinking of putting a brass half-round at the point on the coaming where it rubs. I did reduce the amount of friction quite a lot by using a small diameter (4mm) 'messenger' line rolling hitched to the sheet, and bringing that across the cockpit then back to the tiller; it rendered through the blocks more easily. Won't work in heavier winds, but friction is less an issue in those situations.

Amgine:

I tried using a loop of line around the leeward winch, holding a block for the control line. It didn't work very well. I'm thinking of getting some PVC tubing of the correct size and permanently mounting the block with a large hose clip, the way the fellow with the Ariel website did it.

If done correctly, the PVC tube should slide neatly over the winch and hold the control line above the level of the coaming. If that doesn't work, I'll get some half-round bronze and set up a rub strake, sort of like you described.

Still, since I got that tillerpilot set up, it's been hard for me to bother continuing my sheet-to-tiller experiments.

--Joe

Heh...

I have a tiller pilot too, but it's soooo annoyingly slow to react! I want to build/purchase a USD windvane just because they are supposed to react so quickly to the wind/waves/accelleration.

I'll experiment with the loupe during April and give you a report. I have an idea on how to keep the block at the top of the winch.

oldrig- just got off a very enjoyable day on the Great Salt Lake, and I guess what I liked so much about it was no noise. Didn't use the outboard, didn't use any electricity except for depth finder and checking the weather. I have an autopilot, but I love sheet to tiller for its efficiency. and quietness. I will save the batteries for lights and occasional numbers check.
I would encourage you to keep trying. modify your equipment, and then try again. It will come. I get a kick out of passing another yacht when they look in the cockpit and nobody is there. I then poke my head out from the galley and say hello, just warming up some soup... ;D

Newt:

Thanks for the encouragement. I'll try to get back to my experiments (carefully documented in my logbooks). The biggest bugaboo for me has been friction--and the lifting of my tiller, which diverts energy from steering.

Also, things worked really well when I was sailing under main and working jib, but since I got a genny, it's been difficult to get the right source of feedback. Using the jib sheet is a real problem.

Quote from: newt on March 28, 2009, 09:42:59 PM
I get a kick out of passing another yacht when they look in the cockpit and nobody is there. I then poke my head out from the galley and say hello, just warming up some soup... ;D

BTW, does that qualify as keeping a watch? :D

--Joe

"BTW, does that qualify as keeping a watch?"
Oh, I know they are there, I just watch from the ports to get the look on their faces. Out here, traffic comes by about once every two days. Friction-use ball bearing pulleys and cord that does stretch much. Put all the stretch in the surgical tubing. I do not use the jib to steer unless I absolutely have to, I hook the steering from the boom, to a low pulley (keeps the tiller down) and to the tiller, with an adjustable knot from the snap at the boom. Then I appose this with my tubing attached to a low point. I use the base of the pushpit, but if that is too high for your tiller, maybe try a hook on you cockpit lockers. The key is to get the right tension on them, and the right leverage from the boom to the tiller. I will try to PM you a good article about the subject.

Newt:
Thanks for the article (I've PM'd you back).

When I was using my main for steering input, I was tying the control line to the sheet with a rolling hitch and running it back to through a block (attached to the pushpit--perhaps too high), to one of two clam cleats I attached to the tiller. The other clam cleat was attached to my various thicknesses of surgical tubing.

Perhaps I should try attaching a block to the boom instead. It's worth a try.

Still, I'm concerned that with the primary drive coming from the genny, that's where I need to get the input.

What kind of a rig are you sailing? When the genny's up on my Cape Dory 25D, it seems as though the main doesn't draw that much.

(No offense meant with the crack about keeping a watch. It was a lame joke. I nearly had a collision once when I was on the coach roof trying to get pictures of my self-steering rig--that was scary.)

--Joe

Allright guys, I've had a few requests to put down how I sail without my hand on the tiller. If you will forgive the messy boat, I have a few pics.
This is what I started out with, a tiller tamer. I find it only useful when I am under power, as my Compac just doesn't want to have the tiller control her when she is under way.

When going upwind, I attach bungie cords on leeward side, then a line with two clips and two pulleys. I use one pulley for a block effect on the tiller, and the other has a loop which goes over my jibsheet winch (the one not being used- to windward.) The end clips into my boom. You will also notice a taughtline hitch (like what was used in boy scouts) to adjust the length of the line. Very KISS

You can see the helmsman is very busy. There is only a light wind blowing, I have used this system however in winds up to 25knts with the same result. Here is a closeup of the attachments to the tiller. I did not want to mark up my tiller, so I got a small block and place the attachments on it, then lashed that to my tiller. You can see by the wavelets behind us that we are sailing. I find this mechanism is more precise than a helmsman, thus I seem to go faster. (or maybe its just more fun since I am down with the crew in the cabin and out of the hot sun...)

Going upwind was easy to master and pretty straightforward. I have been doing that for a year now. Going downwind was somewhat tougher. Whenever I set my gear up on the boom it would stay the course for a while and then start turning. Once it started shifting, the boat seemed to develop a mind of its own, completely ruining my fun in the cabin.
I found the secret is to run the control to the sail that is downwind. When you are on a run, that would be the jib. I set the main up to partially blanket the jib, then if my boat gets off course the jib will tighten up and that will pull the tiller back on course. It looks like this: you can see the control line along the edge of the cockpit coming across to the jibsheet at the doghouse. This way is stays out of the way.

Finally, I really do apologize for the mess. I had four family members on my little boat, and since it was hot they retreated to the cabin and kicked all garbage and other things outside. It was hot and so I ran around setting up different tacks so I could get the pictures and get back to the marina before they ran out of food and mutinied.
The beauty of this system is that on a downwind run (the hardest point of sail for a traditional wind steerer) the jib controls the tiller! This allows you to run self steering where you would have trouble doing it otherwise.
Disclaimer: I have only started using the jib to tiller steering. It appears to work well, but give me a year or two to try it in all situations.

Thanks for sharing and nice pics too. grog to you  ;D

My current boat came with an Aries wind vane as told in another thread. On my previous boat, a GRP Folkboat (Also n´known as Int'l Folkboat) I did tinker with the concept a bit. I didn't experience the best of results. Probably due to too much friction (didn't have any extra blocks around at the time) and my lack of patience...  8)

It should work well though, I know of at least a couple of Atlantic crossings where they relied on sheet-to tiller steering.

Good luck with it and keep us posted!  ;)

Thanks for the photos. :)   BTW, you're not supposed to let them mutiny... ;)

Thanks for the pix.

My boat's tiller is below the level of the cockpit coaming, let alone the pushpit, which is why I was getting tiller lifting.

I'm thinking about mounting some folding padeyes on the cockpit lockers this season to give it another try. I'll post photos if it works.

--Joe

Joe-
These posts were for you bud! ;D
Before you go and drill some holes, look one more time to see if you can use what you have. I put that block on my tiller, effectively raising it. Could something like that work? I just don't want you to change your boat if you decide you don't like the system.
I consider the system still experimental until I have a couple of thousand miles on it.
Thank you for the compliements Maxi and Adrift. My crew always has mutiny on thier mind...If I run out of food, drink or daylight they let me know.

Thanks newt for taking the time to post the photos and information on your tiller to sheet steering.

My next project after we mount the new home made bimini, this weekend, will be tiller to sheet steering. I'd like to get below and the tiller tamer is not doing the trick. I like your system and also CJ's system.

Thanks Newt.

No, I won't drill any holes in the boat yet.

But I did already mount two clam cleats on the tiller. I did that a couple of years ago. They do raise the level of the tiller a bit, but I should probably have waited.

The rest of my setup is very moveable: The eyestraps on the pushpit are wired on.

Anyway, I'll post pictures when the system is running (and the boat is in the water).

--Joe

Just thought you guys would like to know...
Moved a 23k disp boat over the weekend with another sailfarer.
I think i can develop a sheet to wheel also- looks like it will even be simplier- just a rope and elastic (no pulleys!)
Let you know in a couple of months... ;D
PS- Thanks Wayne!

And a wonderful ride it was!

I have to admit I never got the hang of Newt's ingenious rig. In part because I was either screwing up the navigation or getting the 180° wind shifts as we navigated the channels between the islands. He'd set it and go about the deck working on projects. I'd set it and the boat would charge off toward shore.

But it's given me food for thought during a few days of enforced non-activity... when I'm back on my feet I'll be testing a new idea I'm sketching out, a variation on Oldrig's setup.

Amgine:

My boat is still on the hard, so I can't take pictures of my setup. But I do think the key to sheet-to-tiller steering with a CD25D with a genoa jib is to use the jibsheet for steering input.

I'm not sure that any system other than twin headsails would work for downwind sailing, however.

Keep us posted and good luck.

--Joe

There's a great book on the subject that was put out by the Seven Seas Cruising Club titled Self-steering Without a Windvane.  It's a wealth of info if you can find a copy.

Excellent explanation and pictures. You made something I've always had trouble understanding seem simple. I can't wait to try it out.

Glad I could help Copacetic. Your Ranger should be a natural for it.

Sorry the pictures were gone for a while, they are back.

I guess I am dense, I still don't see how the downwind run works.

I have  the tiller with one side on the bungee, and the other tensioned by the line that goes across the cockpit and is attached to the jibsheet. It is tight enough on the jibsheet that it causes a little bow in it. The main can be on the same side or the other side (as in a dead run) The key is when the jib gets more wind it corrects back to its original position. If it gets less wind because of the main's windshadow, then the bungee tightens and the boat corrects back to the original course.
You are not dense, it is hard to visualize without doing it on your boat.  The key points to remember are: You are trying to make the boat self correcting, so use the forces on the sheet to turn the boat back on course. For some reason, it works the best using the sail that is most leeward in the boat. Finally, you must reef early and be willing to experiment with different forces. When it comes together it is magical,  so don't give up!

Just found this old picture gathering dust over in the gallery.  I forgot all about it.

(http://sailfar.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10005/normal_021._04.Jul.2004_1721s.jpg)

Sheet-to-tiller in action on the little trailer boat.

There's another bungie cord. For as lousy job as they do, we sure use them alot.

The bungee actually worked pretty good on that boat, and it allowed me to experiment before I got tubing.  I have made surgical tubing setups for both boats since that picture was made.

The first time I tried the sheet to tiller gear, I was absolutely amazed at how well it worked - especially for my first try.  I figured I'd have to tinker and climb a learning curve to get it right, but it "just worked."

Amazing isn't it? First time we really tried it we did 24 hours offshore with it, in conditions that eventually had us with a reefed  main and reefed Jib. Worked beautifully.

Its nice to have you guys around. I don't feel so weird every time I mention this anymore....

Don't feel wierd, Newt.  As esoteric as it might seem to some, I think this system of self-steering holds the most promise for the likes of us.

It took me a while to get my hands on a copy of John Letcher's book (it's out of print, but he designed my boat so I figured it was worth the effort) and reading it cover to cover, I would recommend it to anyone. It's thoroughly developed, but plainly written and surprisingly decipherable (the illustrations helped).

Anyway, Rachel and I went cruising this week and I finally got the chance to test out some different SS arrangements. To make a long story short, I had the boat sailing itself on every long tack, reach, or run that we made. It's been a while since I've felt so satisfied and...ahem...proud of myself.


(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_cXaYDxFPiYk/TEknAd6o_vI/AAAAAAAAANA/oiTnGS6ez3A/s320/sailingjuly+020.jpg)
Beating to windward: bungee offsetting a control line hitched to the mainsheet via cheekblocks and opposing cams on the tiller


(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_cXaYDxFPiYk/S7Fu8ByxSCI/AAAAAAAAAJA/aGikP6PNKuw/s320/map+photos+043.jpg)
Poled out twins with sheets led back to the tiller balance themselves!

Simple and effective. Nuff Said.

Excellent; grog to you, sir!

Looking sharp James. I need to sew some twins for my Valiant! They look so cool. I am currently working on a system that would be self tacking. I will post pictures when I get things together. (Will involve a reverse tiller and bilateral elastics)

A reverse tiller? Care to elaborate?

To make a long story short, when you tack, you have to reverse the side your sheet is on, reverse the pulleys etc... If you make the tiller arm go behind the tiller towards the stern, then you have a sheet that goes directly to the boom. (with no pulleys)It is a simple matter to make elastics on both sides of the tiller. Then come about and see what happens :) If you are running twins, the sheets will need to be adjusted to their new course...This system would probably only be self tacking upwind....but you never know where invention will lead you.

Just received my copy of Self-Steering Without a Windvane by Leb Woas.  This is a great book that every sailfar'er should peruse to develop low cost, self-steering strategies appropriate for their boat.  Even if you have a wind vane, you may want to use these when it inevitably breaks.  Unfortunately, it's been out-of-print for some time and tracking down a copy for a reasonable price might take some luck...

Looking to spend money for overly complicated engineering?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGEwxEOQYIc

This is essentially a 'hard wired' sheet to tiller gear.   I don't know how much it costs, but my sheet to tiller gear cost probably less than $10 to make.

The ad copy on the Steersman Web Page (http://www.steersman.net/Main.htm) is interesting to read, as well.

It almost reads like they had no idea traditional sheet to tiller gear exists, or simply want to hide the existence from potential customers.

The part I find interesting is the claim to be useful RACING, then under "Wind Dead Astern," it is written:

Quote

Sail under jib or spinnaker only on this course

That's not racing.   ;)

Despite the fact that folks can easily make their own gear and use it without making permanent modifications to their boats, he'll probably sell a bunch of these.

No wonder folks think it costs six figures to outfit a boat for cruising.,.,.   ::)

I'm sorry I just don't see how your sheet to tiller cost you $10.00. You sure you didn't leave out a zero?

Part required.

    Three ball bearing blocks, with 1 1/4" sheaves. The ones that have swivels with a "D" shackle that can be attached directly to a snap hook are best.
    Six snap hooks. The 3" bronze ones with swivels are best.
    Twenty-five feet or so of 1/4" line. Braided dacron is good because it goes through the blocks well and doesn't stretch.
    Four feet each of 3/16" and 3/8" OD surgical tubing. Some coarse sized, waxed siezing line works great for tying the tubing.
    Two "C-cleats", which are a type of cam cleat, attached one on each side of the tiller.
    A cam lever that clamps onto the jib sheet, is shown in the last photo. This is an optional piece of gear and is only used to simplify attachment to the jib sheet.

Quote from: Grime on October 17, 2011, 01:06:55 PM

I'm sorry I just don't see how your sheet to tiller cost you $10.00. You sure you didn't leave out a zero?

Yes.  I'm sure.  $10...maybe $20.  Certainly FAR less than $100.   ???

Quote

Part required.

Maybe your parts list differs from mine....at least in the REQUIRED category.

My current gears use:  Some line, two (not three) blocks with 3/4" sheaves (no way I'd need 1 1/4" blocks), no snap shackles (splices to the blocks since I used 3 strand) and no swivels, no cleats at all..just tie to the tiller with clove hitches.  The 'cam lever' can easily be made from scrap wood.

My first sheet to tiller gear, for the small boat, used less than this; some scrap line, a single bungee cord and one small block.  And...it worked tremendously well.

YMMV.  You want to spend a hundred bucks?  Go ahead, and your gear will likely be 'better' than mine.  But I know mine works underway on my boat, so I really don't need anything else.

I didn't say that my gear is better than yours. I have no intentions on spending a hundred bucks on one. I just didn't see how you could do it so cheap. I have not found the blocks for less that 20 each so I don't have sheet to tiller yet. I guess over the winter I could carve out the blocks from scrap wood for one of the houses going up here.

How about some photos of your system? 

Quote from: Grime on October 17, 2011, 02:37:20 PM

I didn't say that my gear is better than yours.

No, I meant that IF you spent $100 on a set, that would be better than mine.

Quote

I have not found the blocks for less that 20 each so I don't have sheet to tiller yet.

Defender currently has Series 20 Ronstan blocks (which I use) for about $12.  You really only NEED one.  Add some 1/4" or 3/16" 3 strand (easy to splice) dacron line and grab a spare bungee cord.  That's all you need to start experimenting...works well from close hauled to having the wind aft of the beam.

Off the wind, you might need that cam lever you mentioned (the jib sheet tends to generate too much force off the wind and thus overpowers the tiller/bungee or surgical tubing), which you can certainly make on the cheap. 

As for photos of my gear...it's nothing special.  Garden variety from John Letcher's book, republished by the Pardey's and reproduced in various manners all over the 'Net.

I'll describe it for now, but try to get some pictures later.

Basically:

Two pieces of 3/16" 3 strand dacron about 4 ft long with a small block on one end via an eye splice

One piece of line about 8-10 ft long.  I also keep another longer piece just in case I need it.

This line is rove through the block on one of the 4 ft pieces of line.

Four sections of air tubing bought from a dive shop.  These have eyes seized into each end with whipping twine.  On one end, the eyes each have rope loops that fit over the tiller.  On the other end, the eyes are attached to an eye spliced in one end of another 4 ft. piece of line.

That's it.

Total Materials:

2 Ronstan Series 20 Blocks
About 50 feet or so of 3/16" three strand dacron
About 4-6 ft of air tubing or surgical tubing.

Labor:

Time to make eye splices and loop splices in the 3 strand, back splicing the other ends.
Seizing the eyes in the rubber tubing

Call it a few hours, spread over multiple days (did a lot of the splicing while watching tv, back when we still had a tv).

That Stearsman looks like a pretty slick piece of engineering to me.  Almost certainly out of my budget; but then, most things are.  Funny how different people view things.

Quote from: Godot on October 17, 2011, 03:42:21 PM

Funny how different people view things.

Yes it is.

My "problem" with it is two fold:

(1) Why use something complicated to do something simple, when the simpler solution will work?

Here, "complicated" refers to replacing winch bases and requiring self tailing winches.  In many cases, as soon as you put "system requirements" on something, it's utility, longevity, durability and/or repair-ability (in the field) is diminished.

Classic sheet to tiller gear requires NO permanent modifications to the boat.  It is simply lines tied or cleated off.

(2) On a philosophical level, I find the marketing troublesome.  John Letcher wrote his book over three decades ago and there have been others since.  Sheet to tiller self steering is profound in its simplicity, and time has told that it is HIGHLY functional.  Oceans have been crossed with this "technology."

Yet this product's marketing creates, or perpetuates, the illusion that this inventor thought of using the force of the sheets to provide input for the steering, and some sort of "Hooke's Law Device" (a bungee, a shock cord, an actual metal spring, whatever) to counteract weather helm.

All this is is Letcher's Sheet to Tiller arrangement with a rigid, fixed "system" to connect to the tiller.  There is no new physics here.  There's not even really a new application of old physics.  One could argue that this is an evolution of sheet to tiller steering, moving from attaching with ropes to attaching with rods, but I could likewise argue since it involved PERMANENT alteration of the boat...it's devolution. 

Eye of the beholder, indeed.

So...if you think this is "neat," consider doing yourself a favor and play with Letcher's "design" first.  It will work just as well (it has to, it's the same basic setup), cost a tiny a fraction and save having to remount winches for the installation.

Don't worry about me.  I'm not buying the unit.  I'm too cheap for that.

But I suspect there will be a market for it.

Sheet to Tiller, as simple as it may be, does intimidate and confuse some people.  Enter a unit which takes a lot of the thought and experimentation out of the system, and perhaps it will appeal to people who are looking for an alternative to electric steering and wind vanes.

People have different philosophies with regards to simplicity.  Simple systems (few, cheap components).  Simple to use.  Simple to learn.  Some like shiny stainless.  Some people may just like to play with solid steel.  Who knows.  Different strokes boats for different folks.

There is more than one way to do almost anything (take a look at all the windvanes and anchors on the market, not to mention the different sailboats).  Variety and options are good.  Ingenuity is good.  This will certainly find a market.  If it will be a big enough market to keep the company solvent remains to be seen.

So the system is not the cheapest or the simplest option.  It still looks like an ingenious piece of engineering.

Quote from: Godot on October 17, 2011, 05:15:18 PM

It still looks like an ingenious piece of engineering.

This is where we may slightly differ (which is, of course, fine).

I maintain that the ingenious engineering was done by John Letcher over 30 years ago.  That this dude attaches the sheet to the tiller via a solid piece of metal rather than ropes is not engineering...unless it solves a problem that existed with the earlier approach.

The 3 decades of use by many sailors in many different kinds of boats strongly suggest to the little engineer in me that no such problem existed.

This is the Microsoft Business Model:  use marketing, rather than real invention (**), to sell your product or service.  It made them rich, so it might this guy, too.

I sure wish I could "invent" some snake oil to pad MY cruising kitty just as effectively....

** (Actually, I concede that this guy does have a valuable product to sell, but it's not the angle he's pushing...that is the "turn-key-ness" of his product.  Yes, sst works and is inexpensive...but, YOU have to do the work of working it out on your boat, assembling the parts and putting it all together.  He's selling a finished, installable deal that eliminates all that.

So...he DID engineer a way to make it "just install" on almost any boat.  That's more than I could do with just lines and blocks and rubber tubing.

Some are DIY-ers, other are not.  Cool...variety, life spices, etc. More power to him on the "turn-key" angle, but I do wish he'd tone down the marketing glitz that makes it sound like he INVENTED sheet based self steering). 

John et al:

FWIW, after years of playing with sheet-to-tiller steering, including contributions to this thread a couple of seasons ago, I've pretty much stopped trying to get such a system to work for me.

For one thing, I've realized that a Cape Dory, with its long keel, sails very well to windward if the sails are trimmed correctly (your Alberg 30 must have a similar underwater profile). Lately, I've taken to getting my sails balanced and then positioning my Raymarine ST2000 so that the boat is holding a course relative to the wind. Then I turn off the tiller pilot (put it on "standby"), so it isn't draining the battery very much. This system seems to work at least as well as my older sheet-to-tiller system did.

For another thing, I was able to get sheet-to-tiller to work quite effectively before I got my 130% genoa. With a working jib, I could tie the feedback line to my mainsheet, rig up a length of surgical tubing and sail very nicely to windward.

However, with the genny, I have had to try to set up a feedback mechanism to the jib sheets. (That's the principle of the Steersman, pretty neat, but definitely too complicated and costly for me). I have not been able to do that effectively, and I've found that using the ST2000 as a tiller holder works almost as well.

As for sailing downwind: I've never been able to rig up a self-steering system, or use the ST2000 for that.

I'm still fascinated with the concept--as I am with the idea of getting a windvane. But there's the little matter of money ...

Any suggestions on how to use sheet-to-tiller with a genoa?

--Joe

Quote from: Oldrig on October 17, 2011, 05:57:48 PM


As for sailing downwind: I've never been able to rig up a self-steering system, or use the ST2000 for that.

In the chapter on self steering, Eric Hiscock (Voyaging Under Sail) outlines a few methods for downwind self steering that predate both vane gears and John Letcher.

One uses twins as described by jmwoodring earlier in this thread.

The other uses a headsail sheet, though if memory serves, it's a second headsail set just for the purpose of providing steering input.

Downwind presents a problem even for the Steersman, since he recommends dousing the main and using JUST the jib...he cannot steer steady enough to avoid a jibe.

Quote

Any suggestions on how to use sheet-to-tiller with a genoa?

You mean even upwind?

I'm surprised using the main does not work, but I assume you've tried it.  Even if the genny is providing most of the drive for the boat, the main is still a big whopping sail for steering input.  I would think, anyway.

In general (and you may be the exception that proves the rule...   :P  ), the lee most sail is the one to use for steering.  Upwind, that's the main.  Shouldn't make a difference what headsail is in place...PROVIDED the helm is balanced by trimming the sails for a balanced helm vice maximum sailing efficiency.

Off the wind, steering with the genny generates too much force, so that a 'demultiplier' seems to often be needed on the genoa sheet.  Use a reverse tackle or a lever of some sort (with the longer, advantaged, arm to the tiller) to LOWER the force (but increase the movement) on the tiller.

I wonder...if you are trying to steer upwind with the genny if force reduction would work there, too.

I wouldn't say that Letcher invented STT steering (plenty of sailors used STT steering before him,) he simply brought a modern engineering mind to it, wrote it down, and explained it in a way that helped others understand the forces involved.  I believe I've come across other books on the subject that predate his (although, the titles fail me right now,) but obviously his treatment is so thorough (esp. for wind vane design) that few have looked elsewhere.  Letcher spends a good bit of his time talking about wind vane design which left him less time to discuss STT steering.  For those interested in STT steering, I'd also recommend Lee Woas' book which is terribly expensive these days, but hopefully you can find a copy through a library using interlibrary loan, if you're not lucky enough to find one cheaply as I did.  Unlike Letcher, he only discusses STT steering with LOTS of examples, but less engineering analysis.  Apparently, lots of Cape Dory owners love this book because many of the examples use a CD28...

http://www.capedory.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=22456

Another alternative of STT downwind sailing is rigging up a square sail which Lee discusses.  They work really well for downwind work and STT steering.  And yes, you can make one very cheaply (think bamboo pole and a tarp if need be + rigging) and they can work on many modern boats.  Of course, if you like how it works, you can sew your own more durable square sail.  Square sails are one of the easiest kinds of sails to make on your own.  Quite a few long distance cruisers used square sails in the 70's and swore by them.  They seem to me a more elegant and simple solution than flying twins, but YMMV.

Here's another website with a very good website on STT. I've used it on Tehani for several days at a time quite successfully.

http://www.jsward.com/steering/index.shtml

Also, here's a link to a video of Tehani sailing under STT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NokZpCJIuBg

Quote from: CharlieJ on October 19, 2011, 10:07:13 AM
Here's another website with a very good website on STT. I've used it on Tehani for several days at a time quite successfully.

http://www.jsward.com/steering/index.shtml

Charlie,

That's a great website, and I based my STT system largely on what I found there. I also managed to contact either Ward or Guthrie (can't remember which). Whoever it was wished me lots of luck, but said he had abandoned STT for a tiller pilot.

Still, as I outlined in a PM to John, I realize that I still have lots of issues to resolve, mostly in connection with friction (the big enemy of getting good feedback from sheet(s) to tiller, and also with the placement of my blocks, which lifted my tiller a little, which also takes energy away from moving the tiller and rudder from side to side.

Maybe next year I'll get back to my experimentation.

--Joe

At the risk of sounding 'confrontational,' I think before we give the Steersman's inventor too much of the engineering credit, I think we need to look at Letcher's Figure 3-23 found on page 70.

The caption to this figure reads:  "Special lever winch base for sheet-to-tiller coupling," and the sketch looks remarkably like the Steersman.  Letcher does not say if he thought of it or if he saw it on another boat, only that "a novel way of mounting the winches could provide the helm forces of the right magnitude with a lot more convenience and less friction ... The idea is to mount each winch on a special movable base rather than directly to the deck or coaming."

The guy is bringing the design to market, but he did not invent it.  Looking at Figure 3-23, I'll be dollars to donuts that he has a copy of Letcher's book and just built the thing.

Just to be clear...more power to him for marketing it; I've got no beef with that.

John,

My thought exactly.
I believe an earlier version of the Steersman was made of plastic.
The shiny, chrome-plated version looks much more professional, although I, for one, won't be trying to order one.
--Joe

A belcher design can be made for about $20...I bet this New? design will run you a little more. Reminds me that I need to order Belchers book on windvanes.

I think this look like a good alternative! what do you think?
http://www.steersman.net/Sailing_today_article.pdf

Quote from: ntica on November 22, 2011, 02:43:45 PM

I think this look like a good alternative! what do you think?
http://www.steersman.net/Sailing_today_article.pdf

Look up a few posts in this thread, starting with this post (http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php/topic,554.msg37614.html#msg37614), for our discussion of the steersman.

cpt. smollet. Yes I've checked the other threads. and the reason is... Rob at steerman contacted me the other day. he'd read an ad I put in a while ago, about second hand Aries, I wanted to buy.
He sead he may sponsor me with his selfsteer :o (belive it or not!)
sure I'm glad as... (I told you about my bad luck was gone) this is like winning a lottery ;)
I have future plans to sail the Jester challenge, so he may see this as a good promotion. He seem like a nice guy.
What are your comments, for and against the selfsteer. To me it looks brilliant. purhapse I'm to blind to see ???

Quote from: ntica on November 23, 2011, 01:25:21 AM

What are your comments, for and against the selfsteer. To me it looks brilliant. purhapse I'm to blind to see ???

Since you asked...,   ;)

*IF*

(1) It's free

(2) You are willing to make permanent modifications to your boat

and

(3) You are willing to be a guinea pig for a new product

then sure, why not?

We've discussed the "brilliance" earlier in the thread.  It's slick, but it's (a) not new and (b) not HIS idea. 

Finally, make sure you are going into it with open eyes, such as the downwind caveats (headsail ONLY) about what you can expect and that, of course, it's not useful motoring (if that's important to you).

If it were me, I'd be very clear with him up front that after I used it a year or so, I plan to 'review' it on the Internet forums (like here) and will pull no punches....I'd sing the praises of what it does well but not cover up any shortcomings I find.

If he has already done extensive testing and has faith in his product, he should have no problem with that.  Bottom line, it's not a mature product with a known customer base.  I personally don't like being the 'test bench' for new products, especially on my boat.  I'm NOT a 'first adopter.'

cpt. smollet. I hear what you say. I still think its a good oppertunity, I can test it out in my home waters for a long time and it's for free. seem like I have nothing to loose (I hope). And as you mentioned...Make it all clear so no mishaps late on.
I'll get back with more news soon.

Quote from: ntica on November 23, 2011, 01:02:27 PM
I still think its a good oppertunity, I can test it out in my home waters for a long time and it's for free. seem like I have nothing to loose (I hope). And as you mentioned...Make it all clear so no mishaps late on.
I'll get back with more news soon.

Ntica:

Yes, I think it's a great chance to try--and review--this new product.

I have written a number of boat and product reviews (mostly when I had a job at a magazine). We always made it perfectly clear that we would write objective reviews of products that we tested. Some companies backed out (or tried to sweeten the pot with promises of advertising), but most understand how it works.

Here's a suggestion:

When you write your review of the product, be sure to mention that it was supplied to you by the manufacturer.

Best of luck, I'd be very interested in your experiences.

--Joe

Hi there good friends and thanks for the advise. I spoke with "him" over the phone today, And he will make me a new one for my 26 foot Celeste (yes I added an E) ;) Those he have avliable today is for 30 foot. and -what he sead- to big for my boat. I will have the selfsteerer in the middle of March 2012. I let you know!

I want to tell you that. There's an Aries for sale in US for 500 USD. needs to rebuild. cheap anyhow, I would have bought it but it's to complicated, the seller don't want any p&P. just cash money when picked up... so I let you in on it. If someone interested let me know and I provide you with adress and phone nr.

Found this on the yube... perfectly explained.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQNBlrg0VyI&feature=related

Quote from: ntica on December 09, 2011, 11:51:31 AM
Found this on the yube... perfectly explained.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQNBlrg0VyI&feature=related

Thanks for the link! This system might be just what I need: The steering line goes to the end of the boom, which would work better, perhaps, than my system that goes to the mid-boom sheeting system.

I'll have to try it next season.

Best,

--Joe

here's some news about the Steersman. My gear is on progress, gonna be a bit  smaller gear "steersman ventura". And ther're new boats in England who will fit this system 20/22 footers. So things are going to turn for the better for Rob and his steersman. Even some Swedish sailors shown interest.

Update on the "steersman" Rob sent a mail the other day. Because he lost a bigger order he could no longer sponser me with the steersman unit?! Oh yes he could for a price of 750 English Pund...redicoulus I say.
I'm dissapointed of Rob...Glad I didn't put on the hugh Steersman signs on my boat. and many interested people here in Sweden that keep in contact with me, And I've sent broschyrs and info to.

Quote from: ntica on February 22, 2012, 04:28:31 AM

Update on the "steersman" Rob sent a mail the other day. Because he lost a bigger order he could no longer sponser me with the steersman unit?! Oh yes he could for a price of 750 English Pund...redicoulus I say.
I'm dissapointed of Rob...Glad I didn't put on the hugh Steersman signs on my boat. and many interested people here in Sweden that keep in contact with me, And I've sent broschyrs and info to.

Wow.  Sorry to hear he could not follow through. 

That's one of the problems with being an early adopter on a new product from a new company I guess....

Here's a technical detail I recently sussed out from Letcher's book.  I've read that relevant sections / chapters many times, and a key piece of the puzzle finally fell into place for me.  Wanted to share in hopes it may save some STT users some frustration.

This is intended for the "understand it" category and as such may not be useful for those that want to simply follow a recipe (and hope it works).

The key bit that is new to me personally is this:  The mechanism of "self steering" is different for sailing above a beam reach than it is for sailing below.  That is, the role played by the STT gear is different in these two extremes.

On the wind, that is above a beam reach, the STT is adjusting the pull on the tiller to changes in wind strength.  Changes of direction with constant wind speed (either wind shifts or boat changes course, say pushed by a wave or some such) are counteracted by the boat's natural weather helm response.

The details of this "weather helm" response arise from the changing turning moment from angle of heel.  If the boat falls off (course shift downwind), the main is present more broadside to the wind and she heels more...increasing weather helm which turns her up (imagine the tiller is "locked").  The opposite happens if she turns too high into the wind and luffs...she heels less, the turning moment is less and since the tiller is "fixed" to compensate for a higher turning moment, she falls off.

Thus, the STT is not really doing much of anything (according to Letcher's explanations, and he's the engineer....) to "self steer" the boat upwind that she could not do with the tiller lashed....PROVIDED the wind speed is constant.

That's what the STT gear does on the wind...it compensates for changes of wind speed which change the amount of tiller input needed to steer straight in puffs and lulls.

Sorry if this seems obvious, but I could not for the life of me reason out how the STT gear could bring her back upwind if she falls off...the directions seemed wrong.  The answer is...the STT does NOT do this.  The STT keeps the tiller "Right" for a changing windspeeds, something that cannot be done by simple lashing of the tiller (ie, the tiller would have to be moved in the windshifts.

The whole mechanics of the problem changes for off the wind.  Off the wind, the sheet tension changes with different courses (sails get blanketed, etc), so that for these courses, the STT gear is doing the active steering even if the windspeed is constant.

Two different mechanisms, two different things compensated for, and thus different "thinking" required to troubleshoot problems if STT does not perform well.

Again, apologies if this is redundant, but it was a lightbulb moment for me...the gear addresses a different problem on different points of sail.   8)

 THANKS for taking the time to lay it out as you have. grog to ya