Two Dog Nights: Cabin Heat In Winter

[skylark]

Unless you have a fan to move air around, as a heater this burner is only going to help down to the 60's F, maybe mid 50's F.

It is important to put a heater as low as possible in the boat.

Keep an eye on ebay, I found a Fab-All diesel heater with flue pipe for $250. This is similar to the Dickinson Newport diesel heater.  It was a little difficult to install (mostly difficult planning on where the flue would exit and how to locate the tank and fuel line).  So far it has been used down to 50F and keeps the cabin plenty warm, even in a heavy wind.  Unfortunately I cannot cook on this model, which would be nice to keep hot water or soup going.

If I were buying a new one I would consider a Dickinson Bristol cookstove and mount it on the floor, forward in the main cabin.

[Bubba the Pirate]

Yes, the Wallus has a 'stove cover' that has a blower in it.   It is an interesting concept. 

TrT

[Captain Smollett]

Well, the cabin heater project may be moved up on the priority list.

I was talking to a guy who lives aboard in NC, and he said something about not wanting to use a kerosene heater due to the odor and fumes.  Now, I THINK he was talking about a regular unvented household heater (like from Lowes or somewhere) being used on the boat.

But in any case, it got me curious.  Before I invest on either a kerosene or diesel cabin heater, I would like to hear from those that have them/use them - especially in a liveaboard situation if possible.  I'm talking about ones like the Dickinson or Taylor that are vented through the deck.

I plan to mount mine on the stdb side main cabin bulkhead.  I'm trying to figure out if the vent will get in the way of any sail handling or how it might effect moving around on deck.

If you have experience with either diesel or kerosene vented cabin heaters, here are some of my questions:

(1) Odors, fumes, residues inside?

(2) Vent get in the way up top?  Lines get snagged, etc?

(3) Do you use it underway? If so, notice any performance issues (to the heater, not the boat!)

(4) Water ingress issues, say in a rollover?  Are the vents 'sealable' for foul weather? (Obviously, I assume you cannot use the heater in this configuration).

(5) Fuel consumption?  The area we would plan to use it would probably have lows in the low 30's (F), maybe the occasional night in the 20's.  Let's say a comfortable cabin temperature would be upper 50's-lower 60's F; is that reasonable with one of these units with those outside temps?

(6) How much fresh air ventilation do you have?  I think mine is currently too small.  The boat has two vents aft, one in the head and one in the chain locker.  None are very large.  I worry about fresh air with all hatches closed; right now, I plan to add some ventilation to the in-port hatch boards.

(7) REALLY dumb question - are these heaters thermostated, or do you have to regulate by hand to keep the cabin at your "desired" temp?

Showing some ignorance here, but the only sailing I've done in cold weather has been day sailing or overnighting. Layers of clothing and/or sleeping bags did the trick.

[AdriftAtSea]

Capn Smollet-

The soot from a diesel stove can do a number on your sails... so be aware of that. 

If everything is sealed properly, the odors and fumes inside the cabin are not noticeable, and they don't really generate any residues inside the cabin. 

The Charlie Noble can get snagged, so it is best to have a line guard around/over it.

Using them underway really depends on the installation.  On one boat I've used them on, using it underway wasn't really feasible, since the heat from the exhaust stack and smoke would tend to really do a job on the main sail.  On another boat, where the charlie noble was further aft, it was fine, since it wasn't directly under where the mainsail would normally be. Some of the heaters can handle up to 30˚ of heel, others can't.

Water ingress isn't much of an issue, but you would probably want to remove the top portion of the stack if going off-shore and put a deck plate in to the deck ring in its place.  That's the only way I know of sealing it properly.  I have the same setup for my solar ventilators on my boat currently.  In terms of rain and spray, the charlie noble does a pretty good job of keeping that out of the system.  It is really just the water washing over the deck or breaking over the deck that is the problem—but that usually doesn't occur in coastal waters—since you'd probably be hiding anchored in weather that bad if you're near the coast.

Ventilation is a problem, but many heaters are designed so you can plumb an air intake into the unit, and reduce the need for ventilation.  However, you'll probably want more ventilation regardless, from your description of things. You'll probably want at least two vents in the main cabin.  The solar powered Nicro vents are very good, and move quite a bit of air—I'd highly recommend them. You'd want to have a CO detector installed in any case.

Most of the ones I've seen are not thermostatically controlled...but do give you some control over the amount of heat generated by controlling the fuel flow rate—less fuel, less heat generated.  :)

Fuel consumption is highly variable, since it depends on how cold it is outside, how much of the cabin your heating, how well insulated your boat is and how warm you have the interior.  On one boat, the normal SOP was to close off the v-berth and not heat that area.  The head was just aft of the v-berth and was a bit chilly at times, but not too bad.  The overhead and cabin ceilings were insulated with fiberglass insulation, between wooden furring strips, and the paneling was over that.  The fiberglass insulation had the mylar heat reflective film glued to it, to increase the insulation value without increasing the thickness required. 

BTW, this boat was used as a liveaboard up in Portland, Maine, year round, so did experience some brutally cold temps.  The head wasn't used year round, since it would probably have frozen in February and March. 

The way the fuel was handled was the heater had a small (about two-or-three-gallon) gravity fed day tank, and a line from the main diesel tanks with originally a pump bulb like you'd find on an outboard motor—later replaced by a small electric fuel pump.  There was a small fuel water separator filter in the line between the main tanks and the day tank for the heater.  IIRC, the fuel tank was filled once a day or so.  Given your requirements, I'd say you'd probably be burning about 1.5-2 gallons of diesel a day. :)

Be aware that many of these small heaters use a bit of electricity, since they use an electric fan to help assist in the airflow when in operation.

I hope that helps. 

[TJim]

This is one I'm still trying to figure out.....I have an old (obsolete like me) Force 10 and I burn diesel in it.  The burn element is basically a Premis camp stove element, so you have to heat the burner up with alcohol
before you turn on the diesel fuel as the diesel has to turn to gas before you lite it.  The Charlie Nobel is only about an inch and a half and terminates with a breathing waterproof cap that is only about an inch or so above the cabin top.  It does not interfere with anything, you can even walk on it but I try to stay off of it.  I slide my hatch open slightly when I use it for air and to let some of the heat out. It can be used underway and it has no thermostat.   Now, I also have a SeaSwing with a Primis burner in it that heats well enough that I'm thinking about taking the Force 10 out.  I really don't anticipate ever being where I'll need again. TJim

[Captain Smollett]

Dan:

Thanks for the comments.  A few points/clarifications.

I have the same setup for my solar ventilators on my boat currently.

Interesting.  I wonder if those are similar to the solar hatch vent on my boat's f'ard hatch.  I will rip that thing out before I do any serious offshore sailing.  That 1/16" piece of flimsy plastic that slides over to cover the hole does not seem very strong to me.

The solar powered Nicro vents are very good, and move quite a bit of air

See above comment.  Are these vents pretty much the same as the hatch vents?

You'd want to have a CO detector installed in any case.

Nah.  When I get the ship's ventilation set up the way I want it, I won't need to fool with a CO detector.

probably be burning about 1.5-2 gallons of diesel a day.

Wow.  The Taylor's I'm looking at is said to burn 1 gal per day at FULL burn.  Given that it's over 8000 BTU, and there is NO way I'm putting 8000 BTU in such a small space for temps above freezing(*), I cannot imagine burning full tilt...at least not for very long.

Are their burn rate specs that far out of practice?  That's why I want some actual numbers, not a spec or a guess.

Be aware that many of these small heaters use a bit of electricity, since they use an electric fan to help assist in the airflow when in operation.
 

Not the one I'm looking at.  That's something to watch, though.  I don't want my heater to use electric at all.

TJim:

Thanks for the info; that helps.  Any comment on fuel consumption with your unit?

Care to keep me in mind if you decide to sell it?



(*) By my calculations, I should be able to maintain a comfortable temp in the living space for 3000-3500 BTU.  An 8000 BTU unit gives me a TON of margin for error on that calculation, and that also assumes a goal of 70 degrees-quite a bit warmer than we require.

[TJim]

I can't give an accurate fuel use number for my Force 10.  I've never used it full time, although I have used on weekends from like Friday evening thru Sunday evening for a couple weekends in a row.  The fuel tank is about 4 gallons if I remember correctly and I've never ran out.  In December and January on the GSL you just don't want to be up in the cold fumbing around filling a fuel tank so I make sure it's topped off if I plan on spending a weekend on the boat.  I'm guessing it uses maybe a half gallon a day.  Also, I think it's a 6000 btu and with the forward area curtain drawn, it'll run me out of my Triton salon.  I'll know by the first of October whether it goes or stays.  I may want to hang on to it in case I ever end up sailing on the GSL in winter again.  I'm still home based in Salt Lake so that's a consideration.... TJim

[AdriftAtSea]

Capn Smollet-

The Nicro solar-powered vents I have were the older style that use a stainless steel screw-in deck ring, not the cheaper plastic snap-in deck rings found on their lower end vents.  They came with a nice chromed bronze deck plate that fits the ring and seals the opening as thoroughly as if the deck was never cut open. :)

I believe it is still made.  Here is a photo of it:



IIRC, the part number is N20504BRSC, but you'd have to double check with the manufacturer.

[s/v Faith]

You'd want to have a CO detector installed in any case.

Nah.  When I get the ship's ventilation set up the way I want it, I won't need to fool with a CO detector.

John,

  I installed a CO detector onboard Faith.  I have to say that I have been very suprised at how little it takes to get the CO levels to an unsafe level.  I have had it go off WITH MY HATCH OPEN!  (with little wind).  This was a real eye opener for me, and I have to say that I would really recommend you re-think this.

  Safety is one of those things everyone has a different view of, and we each have to make our own decisions... but FWIW I really think that the CO alarm is a good peice of gear to have onboard...

[skylark]

I have a Fab-All diesel heater from the 1970's, which is a predecessor to the Dickinson.   I will write about the Fab-All but I believe it is the same as the Dickinson diesel heater sold today. Another good heater is the Refleks.  I got mine off of ebay for $250. Someone in Florida decided they didn't need it anymore. Imagine that.

I have had the heater for a little over a year now on my 28 footer.  I am a weekender, not a liveaboard on Lake Michigan. Because of the number of tourists that show up during the season, the nicest time at the marina is before Memorial Day or after Labor Day.  I am usually one of the first to have the boat put in the water after the river ice runs out.  This year I put the boat in during a blizzard and had 2" of snow on it between hoisting it in the water and motoring up the river to my dock.  The lowest temps I have "survived" on an overnight were in the mid 20's F during a blizzard and I would have liked more heat, but it was comfortable with blankets on the lap sitting next to the heater while reading.  It works fantastic in the 50's and 60's, very comfortable and dry air, no clammy wetness.  Actually I don't use it above 60F because that is warm enough for me.

I do not smell the Fab-All outside when it is running.  It runs very clean with no smoke. The stack on the outside is warm but not hot.  There are no odors inside.  I have had no leaks.  I light the stove by putting a shot of alcohol in the stove, light it with a long lighter, shut the door and wait 5 minutes before turning on the diesel.  Actually I use kerosene bought at the gas station, not diesel.  I do not think there are very big differences in how it runs on diesel vs. kerosene.  To adjust the heat you turn a knob which adjusts the flame height, there is no thermostat.  Usually a low flame works fine.  The mechanics of the fuel metering system are simple, it is basically a carburetor float and a needle valve that adjusts the flow rate.  I have not tried it underway but I believe it will work with no problem, that is what it is designed to do. It might be better to run it at low settings underway. If the waves are really rough, then the heater probably should be shut off. I avoid this type of sailing. The type of burner is a pot burner, which is essentially a can with a tube at the bottom that lets fuel in the bottom of the pot.  The heat of the pot "boils" the fuel into a vapor and it rises and burns above the pot.  There is some type of metal thing in the pot that is supposed to absorb the heat from the flame and transfer it down to the fuel at the bottom.

The Fab-All has a fitting on the bottom to allow for an intake air vent.  I have two 3" stainless steel "stacks", one is hot exhaust and one is cold air intake. This means two holes cut through the deck.  The one issue that I have read about is in high wind situations the stove can backdraft smokey soot into the cabin IF YOU DON'T HAVE AN INTAKE STACK. So I would recommend an intake stack.  I have used it in high winds, it is a little harder to start but once burning it will stay hot and burning with no problem in high winds.  I started it by putting a square of toilet paper in with the alcohol when it was windy, that solved the wind problem of blowing out the priming alcohol.  Yes, both of my stacks are openings in the deck which could allow water in if capsized.  I have not tried to plug them but you could probably get a plumbing fitting to plug them.  I could remove the outside parts of the stacks when sailing and use something else to cover the stack base, but I have not tried this yet.  With the intake stack I do not have a lot of worries about ventilation, in fact I try to limit ventilation to just the hatchboard vent and a vent in the bow to minimize cold air coming in. 

I installed the heater, cutting holes in the deck by drawing the circle and drilling out small holes all the way around, then using a jigsaw to cut through the deck. I filed it to smooth it out and then saturated it in epoxy a few times. The heater itself is an easy mount to the bulkhead.  The tank and fuel plumbing is a little more complicated but its just a matter of getting the right fittings, which usually takes several trips to the hardware store for me for any plumbing job.  I used high quality rubber fuel line.

The heater should be mounted as low in the boat as possible, it should be right near the floor with just enough room for a drip pan underneath.  There is a stratification of air inside the boat, so that anything above the burner is warm, and anything below is cool.  If you wear warm slippers or felt boot liners it is comfortable. It would be very nice if you could sit next to the heater in your favorite spot. You can sit with your legs a few inches away, its not hot like a woodburner. When it gets really cold I shut the door to the head/V-berth and just heat the cabin.  It handled low temps in the upper 20F range although it was clear that the boat could be better insulated.  I currently have no additional insulation.  Temps of over 40F outside mean the cabin will be very comfortable.  Usually I run it at about 1/3 of the way, just enough heat to keep the flame burning clean.  If it is really cold, you will want to turn it up all the way which is a pretty big flame.  It is very quiet, there is just a slight rushing of air, a quiet roaring sound which is louder when it is windy.

I like the heater a lot and would consider putting one in my house, it seems very safe and no maintenance.  The heater makes the boat comfortable from 40F on up, and below that it is not uncomfortable but just a little cool.  With insulation in the cabin, it probably would be comfortable down to 20F.

[Captain Smollett]

Thanks, Paul.  That's some really helpful stuff.

How high do your stacks sit above deck?

To all who have responded to the thread:

Would it be at all possible to get a photo or two of your deck, showing the stacks in relation to say the mast?  (I'm assuming the installation has the stack coming out the cabin top).

[skylark]

[Captain Smollett]

Awesome!  Thanks.

Grog to you, good sir.

[TJim]

I just got back from the coast and would be glad to send pictures of my Force 10 and Charlie Noble
installation, also SeaSwing, if I could just email them.  I can't figure out how to post a picture here.
And at my age, I'm not sure I want to know.  It seems like every time I go to the trouble of learning
something new on these boards someone just changes it anyway.  At my age I got better things to
do than learn things that don't last, but I did get some nice pictures while in SFran for the Plastic
Classic. My Sirena was the oldest boat there but definitely not the fastest, or maybe that could have
been a crew problem..  Whatever, we had a ball... TJim

[AdriftAtSea]

tjim-

e-mail them to me via my blog, and i'll post 'em for ya.

[Shipscarver]

skylark-
Nice camera work. Where is your fuel tank?

[skylark]

The tank is a 4" pvc pipe with two end caps holding about 2-1/2 gallons.  The end caps have tapped (threaded) holes drilled in them for hose barbs.  I fill the tank with a siphon connection using a connector of the type used on an outboard gas tank.  I have a 5 gallon "gas" tank painted blue which is used for kerosene. The pvc pipe tank fits under the dodger.

[s/v Faith]

Something I neglected to mention in the last post on this...

  There was one of the small Coleman catalytic heaters that was with the equipment onboard the boat when we bought her.  It seemed like a good short term heat source since it is made for enclosed spaces (even though the instructions probably say otherwise, it is marketed for use in tents).

  The couple times we used it before the detector was installed, we noticed that it did not do much to heat the cabin, but that it seemed like there was no air to breathe after it had been on for a few minutes.  After the detector was installed, we learned the CO levels became too high almost immediately after the thing was lit and could only be made safe if both the foredeck hatch and the companionway hatch were wide open... not very helpful when you are trying to warm the cabin....  ::)

  Bottom line, I do not recommend this piece of gear for use on a boat.

[Godot]

Something I neglected to mention in the last post on this...

  There was one of the small Coleman catalytic heaters that was with the equipment onboard the boat when we bought her.  It seemed like a good short term heat source since it is made for enclosed spaces (even though the instructions probably say otherwise, it is marketed for use in tents).

  The couple times we used it before the detector was installed, we noticed that it did not do much to heat the cabin, but that it seemed like there was no air to breathe after it had been on for a few minutes.  After the detector was installed, we learned the CO levels became too high almost immediately after the thing was lit and could only be made safe if both the foredeck hatch and the companionway hatch were wide open... not very helpful when you are trying to warm the cabin....  ::)

  Bottom line, I do not recommend this piece of gear for use on a boat.

Really, REALLY interesting.  I have used one of these on my boat on occasion.  It slowly heated the boat to a reasonable temperature.  I believe the version with the blower fan works much more efficiently (here is one sailors review). 

I was concerned about CO as well, so picked up a Kidde household detector that gives a digital readout ... and it never indicated anything.  Outside of smelling a bit funny for the first twenty minutes or so, I didn't notice any ill effects.

Questions to be answered:
1. is my Coleman Catalytic Heater working better than yours?  Could yours have been damaged somehow?
2. is my CO detector not doing its' job?
3. could, uh, well... that's all I can think of at the moment.

[Auspicious]

I have a 5 gallon "gas" tank painted blue which is used for kerosene.

When I read this I thought "uh oh - blue is for water." A little searching and it became clear that to the extent there is any standard for fuels, blue is indeed for kerosene. Given the de facto standard among cruisers for blue water jugs, I'm going to paint "WATER" labels on mine and get a small blue can (labeled "KERO") to refill my new kerosene tank.

Learn something new every day.