Hanks or Roller: Question for the Hank-On Crowd

[AdriftAtSea]

The ATN Gale Sail is designed with a luff that is essentially a sleeve closed by traditional jib piston hanks, that goes around the furled jib and acts to spread the load of the storm sail.  The sleeve also prevents the roller furled jib from unfurling.

Look at http://www.atninc.com/gale.html for more information on it.  :D

The other option is setting up a solent stay, and using a traditional storm jib on it.  This would have the benefit of moving the center of effort down and aft, but doesn't give the security of preventing the roller-furled jib from unfurling.

[Zen]

I read that. It sounded good. I have not figured out how to do the extra Halyard hookup  ???

[Captain Smollett]

Little note on roller furling (everyone knows this, but I SAW it just yesterday).

We were coming in at Hilton Head Harbour Marina just ahead of a thunderstorm.  Wind was hitting 25 kts as we entered the harbour, and the rain started just as we were tying into the slip.  As the main part of the storm went by, winds were hitting 50+kts (I had trouble standing).  One motorboater coming in got blown onto the shore  :o , but got off due to a VERY powerful outboard.

There was a sail boat, about a 40 ft-er or so, that had furling, and it was coming unfurled in the storm.  The sail was flogging pretty hard.  I was trying to imagine that while "out."

As for going f'rd to hand the jib, I have successfully used a downhaul.  Would still need to go up front to lash her down good, though.

Hanks vs. Roller will be one of those age-end debates that boils down to personal preference when weighing all the trade-offs.  Personally, I prefer the (mechanical) simplicity of hanks and will trade that for having to go forward when needed.

[AdriftAtSea]

That's one reason I'm going with a Gale Sail. It will prevent the roller furled headsail from unfurling. :D

[Fortis]

From my point of view, cheap hanks are better then cheap roller furlers everytime.

But if you are willing to spend the money on a really good roller furler...then it is very good indeed!


We went to the size that was well and clearly one "up" from what was ranged for our boat in the brochures, and we spent six months breaking it in and really getting to know it by deliberately throwing the odd disaster-making mistake at it in order to figure out the best way to solve them when things were no longer in a controled environment.

We have a Furlex for our boat and love it (or at least will go back to loving it when the boat is back in the water).

The exact same model of boat as ours that we sail fairly often has a cheap and agricultural furler of a brand I cannot recall...you think it would be burnt into my brain after all the time I have spent swearing at it as it finds new and amusing ways to fail. The time that we ended up drifting through a tightly packed fleet of fishing boats, completely out of control with the headsail flying in front of us like a banner because the wind had eddied into a swirl and switch just as we were in the middle of a tack into a narrow channel we had not visited before, at the time of day when all you see is the setting sun glare on the water. Margaret was in the bow, trying to manually furl the sail as the drum had completely jammed up, I was trying to fire up the motor in order to get some control, and the several hundred people on the fishing boats were either laughing or shaking their heads ...urk. Lots of learning experiences that trip.

But yeah, back to topic, I have been there when four seperate roller furlers have crapped out on other people's boats, they were universally cheap and getting on in years (which also means they were older tech in terms of how they are engineered now). Buy a really good brand, that is definately suitable to the sailing you do rather then just your boat length is a good investment, buy new and get to know them and they are worth every penny. Start with a bad one and you will be wishing you had hank-ons.


Alex.

[Norm]

After 4000nm with hanks on my 45 footer... I still prefer them to roller furling.  For half of the trip the engine failed.  We sailed the boat on and off anchors and docks.  Hanks were fine.

The big advantage to RF is coastal cruising.  The sail rolls up out of the way and keeps the foredeck clear during anchoring and docking. 

The big drawback to RF is that sails reef poorly.  An RF jib, partially rolled gets more "round" as it rolls.  The leach and foot are pulled toward each other.  This makes the sail into a slow shape that induces more heeling.

Hanked on sails do have to be changed more often but allow for superior sail shape in heavy conditions.

Plan ahead?

[AdriftAtSea]

The real place the superior shape of a hanked on sail is going to be the most important is during a storm, and trying to claw your way off a lee shore, or something similar.  A Gale Sail gives most of the advantages of the hanked-on sails, yet for the rest of the time, you can have the convenience and utility of roller-furled headsails.  The Gale Sail, and others like it, serve two major functions.  The first is that they provide a very strong, flat, small, storm headsail. The second is that the act to remove the risk of the roller-furled headsail from unfurling during the storm.  This gives you the good sailing qualities of hanked-on sails, and the convenience of roller-furled sails.

[s/v Faith]

Adrift,

  Do you sail with a ATN Gale Sail?

[AdriftAtSea]

Yup

[Captain Smollett]

I'm just curious under what conditions, if any, you WOULD convert your boat to a roller furling headsail.

For example, is it cost?  If someone gave you furling gear, would you install it?

Is it a reliability thing?  If someone showed real-world favorable stats on cruising boats, would that change your mind?

Etc.

No, I'm not considering making the switch, but the issues came up in a conversation with a new sailor.  It just got me curious what other hank-on advocates would say in this discussion.

[Tim]

For me it would be reliability. That said, I am considering trying a dual head stay system so I could have the best of both worlds.

[CharlieJ]

Having recently rigged a RF on a customer boat, and sailed with it, if someone gave me one, I'd sell it.

Perfectly happy with our hank on jib. On our boat, in our area, the working jib is our workhorse headsail. We have flown our genoa I think twice over here, and both times were down wind in light air. The only time we have changed out the headsail other wise was sailing in Florida with the lighter air over there..

I had the WJ built with a reef point so we can reef it to storm jib size while it's hanked on.

We're happy with it.

And no- it's not a reliability thing- I know the roller furlers of today are pretty reliable. But then I've seen quite a few blown out and hanging in shreds after a squall. Cannot IMAGINE what it would be like to have one stick, or come un furled, in heavy air. Plus in heavier ir they can be really tough to furl- having to lead the furling line to a winch.

We'll keep our dead simple hank on.

[Frank]

 I have had RF. The flicka,CP25 and now my lil electra are all similar to CJ's. I have often reefed the jib.Its simple and effective.It gives much better shape than a furled genny. On all the above I had a light weight 150 as well...which seldom to never got flown. At times I do admit to thinking RF. Your going out for a quick evening sail or you have to motorsail...would be too easy to just pull a line. But for cruising, I'll stick to hanks as well.

[Auspicious]

But then I've seen quite a few blown out and hanging in shreds after a squall. Cannot IMAGINE what it would be like to have one stick, or come un furled, in heavy air. Plus in heavier ir they can be really tough to furl- having to lead the furling line to a winch.

Agreed. I watched one come to pieces last year during the hurricane Hanna non-event. I was anchored in Back Creek and had a great view of the sail shredding on a boat on the hard at Jabins. It took about 15 minutes with winds only in the 40s (and yes I was madly trying to phone Jabins).

Sometimes they unfurl, and sometimes they just wrap more tightly exposing a bunch of sail near the clew.

Most furlers I'm familiar with have some mechanism for locking the drum. Some are a pin and some are a cleat or fixture to hold the furling line. Just have to read the manual.

sail fast, dave
S/V Auspicious

[Amgine]

Options.

My CD 25D came with a PO's roller furler. About 4 months into preparations to circumnavigate Vancouver Island the anti-wrap fitting on the forestay began to fail, probably due to age and would have been an easy fix if I'd had the time and experience to do so. It was just easier to remove it and go on the cruise with the older hank-ons.

The hank on sails give me sail options which are more suitable to the weather conditions than a compromise roller-furling genoa. My 100% is cut to the inside track and quite flat. The 110% & 130% have different cuts to power up in chop or foot off in lighter going, respectively.

Money is a distinct issue. I'd switch if given *two* roller furlers and sails - a larger genoa to set all the way forward (possibly on a stubby sprit) which would likely require rolling up in order to gybe or tack, and a smaller, high-clewed roller-furling sail set a bit aft of it that will have good shape if rolled down to about 90%. It would take me at least another 3 years of saving to pay for that, not including the rig alterations.

[Auspicious]

RF doesn't mean you can't change sails -- I switch between my 100 and 135 as needed. It's actually faster than with hanks as long as your pre-feeder is set up right. If you look at racers - who change a lot when the wind is up and down - most have foils on the forestay that look remarkably like a RF foil.

If cost was no object, I would have a RF with the drum below deck and a suite of sails.

Cruisers don't have to go slow.

[maxiSwede]

#1 simplicity - and yes, to some extent reliability

#2 performance - a RF headsail is not very good in light air, or heavy air, but quite OK in between

#3 added windage- which also gives less good performance

# 4 cost- but if I would have on for free, I would sell it. And get a Ham rig for the money

# 5 looks - sorry, but I think it's plain ugly with that 'sausage' thing on the forestay


So, did I ever wish I had one? Yes. Once. I was buddysailing with a sister boat. After a couple of days with near gale force winds, we had light air, and I left the anchorage with the jib. After a short while I realized that it was too little canvas and while I changed to the 150% genua, the other boat almost disappeared at the horizon. I was single-handling and they had a RF.

[mrb]

This may have changed but I thought there were actually 2 diff. roller systems.  One made for furling and the other for reefing and furling.  The diff being the furler lighter in construction and not to be used for reefing.

Can some of the problems people have had was that they automatically thought if it furls then it must reef.  I don't know.

Then I thought these systems were relative new as things go until I saw a boat in the Victoria B.C. maritime museum from the late 1800's with a head sail furler.  Belonged to the man who started yacht club there.

[Auspicious]

#2 performance - a RF headsail is not very good in light air, or heavy air, but quite OK in between

Your other points have merit, but I don't follow this one. Could it be that many or most people with RF don't tune their rigs for conditions? Or are you assuming people with RF don't do sail changes?

In very light air I use my 135 and crank down on the backstay and vang to flatten the sails. As wind increases to 5 or 8 add depth to the sails. As it increases above 10 or 12 start flattening again.

If winds look like the will sustain above 15 or 20 I fly the 100.

If things get really ugly I roll up whatever is on the furler and fly the staysail.

All this keeps me moving among the faster monohulls in my area, but definitely not a race boat. I think a dirty hull has a bigger impact on my speed than the RF.

Practically, on Chesapeake Bay, I keep the 135 on the furler all summer and the 100 on most of the rest of the year.

Long way around to the question of why you think boats with RF headsails don't perform well in light and heavy air but only in medium winds.

[Godot]

I think it is a fair statement that most people with roller reefing DON'T change their sails.  In fact, from talking to folks about RF, the primary benefit I hear is not having to change sails.  (heck, I HAVE hank ons, and still only have one headsail. $$$)

The normal complaint of RF in heavy wind is bad sail shape.  I don't know what the trouble is in light air.

However, it seems to me that much of the performance issue would me mitigated by the ease of being able to change sails for the conditions during the majority of time when sailing in the prime range of the RF sail.  How many headsails does the typical small boat carry?  If wind conditions suggested a change from a 110% genoa to 100% would most folks have the sails available for the minor change?  Would most bother to change at all?  What if the wind was changing every twenty minutes or so?  With RF it (theoretically) becomes much easier to keep the boat balanced efficiently, and therefor performing at its'  best.  At least as long as you are working within the GOOD reefing range (I hear that headsails can generally  be reefed 20% without losing much efficiency, and I suspect a fair bit further with increasing, but acceptable to most, sail shape loss).  I could be wrong, though.  I've never had roller reefing.

I would get a roller reefing system, probably with a 120% genoa,  if I had the extra cash.   I don't really have room to store extra sails, I single hand most of the time so sail changes become a pain, and I like a cleaner foredeck (makes anchoring easier).  When big storms are forecast to hit the area I generally strip the sails off the boat right now.  Why that would  change if I had a RF system I'm not quite sure.  Although, it seems that once the wind gets up it would be too late to strip the headsail off the foil.

Choices.  Unless you are broke.  Then you keep what ya got.