Hanks or Roller: Question for the Hank-On Crowd

[j d]

It?s an interesting thread for me, as I have no experience with hank on sails. My boat came to me with a top of the line harken roller. Both my head sails, a 130 and 110 have a foam luff that makes the sail roll larger in the center then at the top and bottom, that helps keep sail shape. I find I can reduce sail about 30% and have a reasonable shape. To be really right I need to slide the sheet block ahead on it?s track after rolling it in. This of course can only be done on the windward side when it isn?t under load. So it usually doesn?t happen. that?s ok though, I still do ok. Most the time I sail single hand and the last of couple years  I have been sailing the Sacramento, San Joaquin river delta in CA. Lots of 25K wind in the summer here. Like my system fine.

[Captain Smollett]

I'm going to chime in here since I have at least in part fueled this discussion to the point that it runs the risk of becoming "argument" and "hurting of feelings."

First of all, I believe this site distinguishes itself from all other sailing sites on the Internet by staying away from defensiveness and superior attitudes.  I think we strive to have honest debate and discussion without feeling the need to walk on egg shells while at the same time respecting that each skipper is the Captain of his or her own boat.

Said another way...don't we all have too much of our own to do/worry about to spend time agonizing over what OTHER people use?  Stating what I would like on my boat, and why, does not itself imply superiority...it's discussion.

Secondly, this site is premised on two key sailing niches: distance (or long term) cruising on SMALL boats, and keeping boats SIMPLE.

The issue of what gear to add to a small boat is certainly valid fodder for discussion within both of those umbrellas.  That's my opinion.

Because the "conventional wisdom" often states that both big boats and 'well appointed' boats are "required" to comfortably cruise, it's easy to extend this site's niche to be being, at least for the sake of discussion, iconoclastic in challenging sailing / cruising conventional wisdom.

One of the most common conventional wisdoms we have challenged over the years is "what gear is REALLY needed?"  

If someone suggests x piece of gear is "needed" to accomplish some sailing goal, the first question I ask myself is "Is it the GEAR that helps accomplish that goal, or does the gear provide something else."

In this particular case, I think it's the latter.  It was stated that RF would make life 'easier' in some way on a small boat on a cruise that involves sailing every day.  I challenge that outright and I and others have offered reasons why there is very little practical difference between RF and Hank-On in that scenario.

Others offered additional scenarios that they use to justify having or wanting RF.  All's fine in the spirit of discussion.

If a person wants a piece of gear just because they want it, that's their choice and no skin off my nose.  However, if someone says, "I need this because it will do x" and I disagree with THAT statement, sorry, but I'm going to speak up.

And make no mistake...it's not because I care whether he has RF or not or choses to outfit his boat differently than I choose to outfit mine.  It's because I have seen folks walk the path time and time again where they buy into "needed" and the gadget does not live up to the expectation and disappointment results....

What's the ultimate goal here?  Is it to see how much money we can spend on gear?  Is it to have as much "technology" on our boats as possible?  For some, the answers are "yes."  I know folks like that...they ONLY want a boat to have something to brag about what they spend on it.

But, if the goal is to ENJOY SAILING or ENJOY CRUISING...to USE the boat to access a rich lifestyle, the siren call of "gear" is one fraught with spiritual danger.

To paraphrase a favorite line from a good movie (COOL RUNNINGS):

"If it's not good enough without RF, it will never be good enough with it."

I reject outright that the gear will make a difference in what pleasure one derives from sailing in the general case.  I reject it's inclusion on ANY "must have" list.  If you want it, fine.  You want it.  Your money, your boat, your choice.  Bang On.  I'll defend that til the sun goes down.

But there's a TON of data available in the "real world" that it is not necessary to sail or cruise enjoyably.  This is a VERY different question...and one I think folks should be honest with themselves about.

Curmudgeonly Yours,

JR

[jotruk]

I am going to kick in here with my 2 cents worth. I have roller furler on my boat and enjoy it very much, do I have to have it, no I do not, but on more than one occasion it has been a nice to have item. If I get an other boat if it has RF on it fine if not fine also , all in all it is a nice to have item and my Admiral really enjoys having it and she is the one I have to answer to.

[Captain Smollett]

I wanted to make an additional point that I think is important.  Maybe it's not, but I think it is.   :P

These discussion are not just for us, the participants.  At any given time, the ratio of Guests to Logged In Users on sailfar is about 10:1 but may be 20:1 or even higher.

If 10 of us bat something like RF vs hanks around, there's 100 or more 'lurkers' reading the info.

I personally believe that sailfar provides a service for them as well.  This is not just about what any of us as individuals choose to put on our boats, but the PROCESS of why we make these decisions with regard to various gear is important.

Sailfar is one of the FEW places on the Internet (or in print) that actively advocates doing "without," or as CapnK said it better than I ever could...we can live more by living with less.

There's a bigger picture here than how we attach the headsail to our boats, and some of the people reading these words may be the dreamers, the school boy or girl that wonders 'what is over that horizon?" as Kurt outlined in the Guidelines thread.

Lists of "must haves" in any hobby, sport or lifestyle tend, in my observation, put people off - make things seem out of reach.  Sailfar has always adopted the "Go Now with what you have" philosophy advocated by such successful cruisers as the Pardeys. 

So, I offer that we remember that what we write here is as much for the casual, non-member reader as for ourselves.  The important theme is the process by which we, as individuals, decide "need" vs "want" and how we address it.

So, it's true there's no wrong answer - what boat one chooses or what they put on it.  A 50 foot whiz-banger fully outfitted with all the gadgets known to man is just as valid a cruiser as Stuart's Nano...and vice versa.  The real issue I have, however, is that there are so few people sticking up for the Nano end of the spectrum and mindshare certainly favors the "gluttonous" side of the coin.

I see nothing wrong with pushing the alternative a little bit, at least in a "for your consideration" mode.

[Godot]

I was feeling ornery and frustrated. I didn't really mean to kick the hornets nest.

[Tim]

Sailfar is one of the FEW places on the Internet (or in print) that actively advocates doing "without," or as CapnK said it better than I ever could...we can live more by living with less.

So so true, my favorite Tshirt a Patagonia that just has a quote from Yvon Chouinard;

"The more you know, the less you need."

[Tim]

Sailfar is one of the FEW places on the Internet (or in print) that actively advocates doing "without," or as CapnK said it better than I ever could...we can live more by living with less.

So so true, my favorite Tshirt a Patagonia that just has a quote from Yvon Chouinard;

"The more you know, the less you need."

But in no way do I mean I think RF is over doing it, in fact, I am considering it for the Typhoon  ;D

[CharlieJ]

I was feeling ornery and frustrated. I didn't really mean to kick the hornets nest.

Don't worry about it. Think of it as just a marina Sunday afternoon sitting on the dock type discussion :D

I've been sailing since 1957, actively since 73, never had RF, would have enjoyed it a few times, might put it on a different boat later on, might not.

Main thing is  getting that Dacron in the  wind, no matter HOW ;)

[rorik]

I didn't write that with the intention of appearing to need to be superior. But if that's how some

I didn't mean it to sound like an attack, although perhaps my post wasn't written well. As well I may have misinterpreted your post. Sorry.

Perhaps I'm just cranky. I've more or less shifted myself off of forums as my own choices and prejudices have cemented. I've also come to realize that there really is no best way, that we all make our own choices, and that there likely aren't two people, even on a forum like this where there is a predominant mindset, who completely concur.  Daily I'm told (directly or indirectly) what the "best way" to do something is, which is often contrary to my personal experience and opinion.  I am having too often to justify my decisions to others (I'm talking primarily professional here, although there is a fair amount of personal justification I'm called to do as well). Sometimes I guess I just expect it.  I do try to avoid it; but I can occasionally get a bit persnickety.

You've pretty much summed up how I feel about many things. In fact, I have a friend who has officially declared me to be a "misanthropic libertarian", if that tells you anything.
I've quit contributing to several forums, and not just sailing, for the same reasons you've stated.
I do have a sort of terse writing style, but I try to keep to facts and not make declarations of "best this way".
I am proud of my choices because I spent a lot of time thinking through what is, or is not, going to work best for me and this boat.
I went to the sailmaker and told him I want to be able to sail on all points, regardless of wind speed, in the most simple reliable manner possible.
Mathilda's fat ass (28' & 11,000lbs) can move at 1-2 knots in 4-5 knots of breeze. My reefed jib is just a little bigger than a storm jib. My main only has two reefs, but they are deep reefs and with the second reef in, it is only a little bigger than the storm trisail which has it's own gate in the same track as the main.
My maintenance consists of chafe prevention, lubing slides and hanks, and UV protection.

[CharlieJ]

"misanthropic libertarian" isn't too bad. I've been called "a hairy old fart" several times :D
Don't know if that's worse or not. I AM an admitted cynic and curmudgeon!!

;D

[rorik]

From Wiki:
Misanthropy is hatred of the human species or human nature. A misanthrope, or misanthropist is someone who holds such view or feeling. The word's origin is from Greek words μῖσος (misos, "hatred") and ἄνθρωπος (anthrōpos, "man, human"). The condition is often confused with asociality.

Moli?re's character Alceste in Le Misanthrope (1666) states:

"My hate is general, I detest all men;
Some because they are wicked and do evil,
Others because they tolerate the wicked,
Refusing them the active vigorous scorn
Which vice should stimulate in virtuous minds."

[Jim_ME]

"HANK...ON...JIB..."
"HANK...ON...JIB..."
"HANK...ON...JIB..."
;)

[ntica]

Today I finnaly found out how the roller furler was working >:( It's an earley modell, with a swirvel at the top and bottom only. Think I've seen this on ol' wooden boats?
And to roll it in, I'll have to pull the line from the inside, coz' the roller is underneath the foredeck :) But now it's working fine...

[w00dy]

My take is that boats with a long, scary bowsprit make the best use of roller furling.

For example:



Who wants to hank on a new sail out here?  :o
This is a bit larger than your average "Sail-Far" boat, but the principle applies to smaller boats with a stick out front, such as the BCC, Cornish Crabber, Aquarius Pilot Cutter, W32, etc.

Anyway, I think the ideal setup would be to have a moderately large rolling genoa that would reduce somewhat acceptably when the wind began to pick up. In strong winds, the genoa would roll up and leave the staysail to keep the boat balanced until further reefing was required. In extremely light airs, you could set a loose footed cruising spinnaker or drifter without having to step out onto the bowsprit. Perhaps you would lose efficiency in a few situations, when the wind was too strong for the genoa, yet the lone staysail was too small. Still, for the sake of safety, simplicity, and with a little patience, you would reduce your load of foresails on the boat and keep from having to step out onto the "widowmaker" as much as possible.