Small boat prejudice: experience, causes & prevention.

[s/v Faith]

Small boat prejudice: experience, causes & prevention.

  I thought a thread might be useful to discuss prejudice as it relates to Sailors of small boats.  Believing that prejudice is a 2 way street, I also would like to discuss ideas on prevention of prejudice against small boat Sailors (&Sailors in general).

  A couple of incidents / policies got me thinking about this issue over the last several months of living aboard and cruising.  I know some of the reasons for this prejudice are simple economics and may not be preventable.  For instance, the dockage on a 50' slip boat is always going to be more profitable when filled with a 50' boat then with a 30' boat.

When Rose and I pulled into the Charleston we looked at a few options for our stay.  We prefer to anchor but wanted to shower and do some laundry.  While a dingy dock friendly marina might have worked well for us we accepted that we might have to stay a night in a marina to do what we wanted. I first haled Charleston municipal marina.  The cordial tone of the discussion changed abruptly when they asked our length. On the radio replied by saying their minimum charge was for a 35' boat.  We later learned that their dingy policy was also less then accommodating with a 'per use' charge for the use of the dock and no services (shower, head, trash or water) included with the use of the dock.

  We called the marina next door, and were informed that their 'charter' did not allow them to accept boats of less then 35'.

  We noticed that some kind of reception at Spanish Cay marina in the Abaco's. 

Things we have done to reinforce the positive view of smaller boats;

  We do not often stay in marinas, but when we do some things we do are;

~ accept (or even suggest) placement in a smaller slip.  Marinas are understandably less then excited to give up a large slip for a small boat.  We once tied to the end of a dock at Sea Gate marina on Adams creek, and a couple of times we have agreed to spend the night on the last few feet at the end of a fuel dock.  Once in the Abaco's (Black sound, Other Shores Yacht Club) we even tied up to an unused side of the dingy dock.  It allowed the marina to rent the space on the face docks to larger boats, and the height of the dingy dock actually made it easier to get Peter ashore.

Be a good citizen.  I like to think that we are pretty easy 'guests' for a marina.  We usually dock and get underway without assistance, we clean up after ourselves (and our dog) and try to be generaly easy to get along with.  We try not to let the 'vagabond' look get out of hand while in the marina (hanging laundry, using tarps as sunshades). 

Make sure to tell small boat friendly facilities that you appreciate them on a few occasions I have mentioned this web site, or presented sailfar stickers as the 'small boat seal of approval'.

What have you experienced or done about this issue?

 

[Lynx]

The marinas that I have been to have not been a problem but some have a mininum charge. After I tell them my draft, it is not a problem. Sometimes I am almost to big for there slips like on the Atlantic side of Key Largo.

Dinghying to shore I always check the cruising guides. My main problem has been with the snobbs. I just don't put up with it anymore. I would rather be told to leave. Well worth it.

I should add a note that anchoring out in Punta Gorda Marina, Fl is considered by the locals as being bad, deadbeats. Although the bridge height is low and a lot of small boats there. I would not want to go around them again.

[Captain Smollett]

Ditto the experience at Charleston City Marina.  To put it bluntly, that place sucks.  $5 per day for use of the dingy dock, and that buys you absolutely NOTHING except a place to tie up the dink.  The week we were there, I never saw more than one other dingy at the dock at a time, so it's not like their dingy dock is in THAT high demand.

What peeved me more than anything there was the attitude when I asked to buy gasoline or worse, dump/pump-out the holding tank.  Plus, no showers.  I just don't get it.  They were turning down business - we would have PAID for our gasoline, pump-out and showers.  But all that is a business desision - okay, fair.  That does not explain the snotty attitude you get from their staff just because you are anchored out having not wanted to pay a premium minimum slip fee.

The other place I've gotten some attitude is, believe it or not, other sailors.  It sometimes gets a little old to me to "justify" why I wanted/now own an Alberg 30 for extended cruising.  It was OUR choice to make, but some other "sailors" act like we are nuts to have not chosen a boat at least 45' LOA with 110V (microwave, TV, etc), pressurized running hot and cold water and a million dollars worth of "systems."  I think to SOME extent, in SOME sailors' minds, your "status" is measured by the gadgetry you display - the toys you have.  To me, a sailor's status is measured by years on the water and more importantly, miles under the keel.  Gadgets don't buy experience, but I digress.

So, I think it is fair to say there is at least a LITTLE bit of discrimination/snobbery within the sailing community against smaller, leaner and meaner KISS boats.  I guess that's true of any over-broad group like "sailors."

To offer the contrast, I have encountered a few places that were right-on with smaller boats.  They did not turn down the few extra bucks by sticking a little boat whereever they had a few feet of dock open, and they treated us like any other paying customer was treated.  Specifically, Georgetown Landing Marina (Georgetown, SC) and Hilton Head Harbor (NOT Harbour Town!!) Marina (Hilton Head, SC) were two where we slipped our 18 footer.

In the case of Hilton Head Harbor, though we did have a regular short slip (30 ft, iirc), they charged us less than the advertised rate per foot for a week, then added the 8th day free and we got to use their launch ramp for free.  We did not use electricity and our boat was clean and 'well kept' -  we tried to maintain as low a profile on the dock as possible to show respect back to such gracious hosts.  So, if you are traveling on the ICW near Hilton Head, I can give me thumbs up to HHM, just East of HWY 278 bridge right at Daymark 20.

In the end, all we can do is "keep our own decks clear."  We'll remain under the radar; more importantly, we won't give marina's a REASON to hate us for having a small boat.  I guess it's all you can do sometimes.

[Gus]

come to sail in NC, I have never had a problem because I sail a 22 :)

[CapnK]

Good idea for a thread, Craig, and good points you make.

The marina I am at - the aforementioned Georgetown Landing Marina, Georgetown, SC, ICW MM 401-ish - is a small-boat-friendly marina, as long as you don't arrive during a big fishing tournament. ;D All the dock space gets used up during those.

[Oldrig]

This is indeed a great topic. Thanks for starting it.

In New England, I have found marinas with minimum charges (often I pay the same for my 25-footer as I would pay for a 30- or 35-footer), but I've generally been treated well once I took a slip.

But there's another aspect to this problem--and it all boils down to economics.

Boatyards are also treating smaller boats with increasing disdain, since they can earn a lot more on a boat that requires the services of five or six employees per hour (at $85/hour/person) than one that is basically just stored there.

In my case, my family has used the same yard for 30 years or more. Admittedly, much of that time the yard merely launched and hauled the boats, but for the past four years, with a keelboat, I've used the yard for storage, engine repair and bottom painting.

Every year, my boat gets moved to a more obscure corner of the yard, and every year my boat gets put into the water later than the previous season. And I know that I'm not alone: Smaller boats and boats whose owners do most of the work themselves just don't get the same kind of service that 40-foot-plus Hinckleys and the like receive.

It bothers me--but I understand that if I were running a business, I'd give preferece to the customers who pay more.

Some people, like me, simply cannot keep their boats in their own front yards, and for us, we have to pay higher and higher storage fees every year, and find our boats pushed into obscure corners of the yards.

OK, now I've vented! Thanks.

--Joe

[Captain Smollett]

In my case, my family has used the same yard for 30 years or more. Admittedly, much of that time the yard merely launched and hauled the boats, but for the past four years, with a keelboat, I've used the yard for storage, engine repair and bottom painting.

...

It bothers me--but I understand that if I were running a business, I'd give preferece to the customers who pay more.

From a business standpoint, and as a (small) business owner, I cannot agree that this make good business sense.

My reasoning is thus: they charge you basically the same "rate" as any other boat - for the services you are using.  You are using the lift and paying a per foot (or per ton) on that; you are storing the boat, and paying for that as well.

But those guys who are NOT working on YOUR boat are available to work on ANOTHER boat.  In other words, you have not COST them money ... you've given them MORE.  They get to employ those guys working $cool_fancy_big boat and STILL charge you your fees.  What's to complain about?  (**)

Sure, in terms of absolute $$, you don't pay as much.  But you are not using as many of their resources, either.  That makes those resources available for them to sell to someone else.  Business wise, I see this as a winning siutation.

(**) This analysis assumes the yard is not maxed out in terms of boat storage.  If they are bumping those big boats that earn more $$, then of course your point makes more sense.

[AdriftAtSea]

The other problem I see with this...is that if you and your family have been a customer for 30 years, they should have some respect for the loyalty and length of time your family has done business with them, if nothing else. A lot of companies seem to forget that loyalty goes both ways... from the customer to the company, and from the company to the customer.   

[Godot]

For seasonal services it would seem to be in most yards long term best interest to treat small boat sailors well.  After all, a large hunk of small boat sailors eventually become big boat sailors.  Building customer loyalty at the entry end would seem to make a lot of sense.

My current marina was actually pretty happy to sell me a slip.  It was small and in a difficult space due to some heavy silting from a hurricane a few years ago.  It's tricky to get my 24 footer in and out at low tide.  Good for them. 

Soon I'll move to Maryland Marina (closer to home and cheaper) where they don't have a slip small enough to fit me in nicely.  So they upgraded me to a bigger slip for no additional cost until a smaller one opened up.  They may lose money in the short term; but they seem to like small boaters and where nothing but outrageously friendly to me.  Surprisingly (to me) I believe they are the largest marina in Maryland.  I wasn't expecting that kind of reception.  They've earned my friendship.

[Oldrig]

Capt. Smollett and Dan:

Your analyses are correct--and it seems like what the yard is doing is the same thing that is ruining the recreational boatbuilding and selling industry right now: Following the model first established by the Detroit automakers, they're trying to make up in higher per-unit costs what they're losing in increased sales.

Look what this model did to Detroit!

New sailboat production dropped by more than 5 percent over last year; overall boat registrations (mostly powerboats, heh-heh) are down more than 15 percent, builders are going bankrupt, laying off workers, etc. etc.

If yard owners try to follow that model, they'll end up in the same pickle as the American car industry. I certainly hope my yard sees the light, because they're really very nice people, and they know boats.

Forgive the second rant: I work for a boating magazine, and our advertising has fallen off so badly that I'm going to be put from full-time to half-time as of March 1. I keep telling myself that I'll have more time to spend on my boat, and I was thinking about strategies for easing into retirement (I'm 60). But, frankly, I only hope I can continue to afford to keep a sailboat.

The so-called "boating industry" is imploding--and it should.

But that means that those of us who continue to boat should be more valuable to those who depend on us for their incomes.

Sorry for the blowup. Now back to our regular program.

--Joe

[Norm]

Hello all:
I guess all us little boat sailors have the same gripe. 

My boat yard manager friends tell me that it is all about money.  Yards are taxed and regulated to death.  Big boats are big billable hours... fixing all those accessories.  Little-boat yards are turning into condos.  A grim reality.

If only little boats would over-accessorize and then spend hours, nay, days, in the yard having the stuff fixed.

A couple of days ago I was up in Marina Cay off Tortola's East End.  While the charter guests went ashore to check email, call the office, buy provisions, etc.  a little Albin Vega (my idea of a really cool boat) arrived and dropped the hook.  I took a picture and will try to post it.  It is the first small cruiser I have seen since arriving in November.  Hope I see them around and get to stop in for a chat.  A beautifully tricked out pocket cruiser.

On another topic... tongue in cheek... anyone want the inside info on sailing 42-45 foot catamarans?  Lovely engines!  And that flying bridge is just to die for.....  Did I say that?

Best, Norman

[AdriftAtSea]

Norm-

Welcome back...are you down in the Caribbean or up in Beantown?? How are Averisera and Cubemonkey??

Dan

[Shipscarver]

Stateside, IMHO, the problem is lack of voice. That unheard voice should be strong and well heard in every state touched by the ICW, the Great Lakes, and all areas touching inland lakes and rivers. The ASA, and other sailing/cruising organizations should be in a leadership role here, focusing a combined effort to generate political pressure, community self-interest, school programs to build interest and a committed participant base, and to generate effective lobbing at every level, but . . .
So, how do we kick these organizations in the logistic derriere, and create effective pressure that can, albiet slowly, improve the situation ?
   

[Mr. Fixit]

I wonder what the current trend of the financial condition in this country will bring. Will recession bring out admiration for small boat owners that kept their expenses reasonable, or will the animosity increase. One thing for sure if business drops off, we may be more welcome at the docks!!!

[nick]

I must be one of the few, but whenever I turn up into the marina, the marina staff don't bat an eyelid, and in crowded places I can always squeeze in - I'm probably a money spinner because they can't actually fit any more boats in, except teeny ones like mine!

Also, people on the dock look at my little boat and instantly want to talk to me about how I managed to get so far alone in such a small boat!

In fact, I can't recall one negative comment or experience by having a small boat... Maybe that's Europe?

[mrbill]

I wonder what the current trend of the financial condition in this country will bring. Will recession bring out admiration for small boat owners that kept their expenses reasonable, or will the animosity increase. One thing for sure if business drops off, we may be more welcome at the docks!!!

The folks at my local West Marine are moaning about the decrease in business, even after adjusting for the season. Of course their business is heavily oriented towards power boats, and they figure the price of gas and upkeep is finally starting to have an affect. Similarly, at the recent New England Boat Show in Boston...also very heavily power boat oriented or big sailboats...all the boat dealers were complaining about the lack of traffic and interest. I suspect there will be more boats stored for the summer in the boatyard rather than pay the expense of putting them in the water. It will be interesting to see.

[s/v Faith]

Nick,

 

In fact, I can't recall one negative comment or experience by having a small boat... Maybe that's Europe?

  I am glad to hear this.  I suspect that a lot of these issues are related to country specific issues (bleeding over into the Caribbean... )  I remember when Zen was discussing sailing in Japan that as I recall these issues were non-existent.

Mr Bill,

  I think that the downturn has a lot to do with the (perceived) economic state.  I will admit wishing just earlier today that the price of fuel would cut down on the number of power boats on the water...

[s/v Faith]

Another thing Rose and I thought of the other day.....

  Smile and wave.     ;D

I was warned that when we left NC, we would not see others many continue the habit we have of waving at the boats we pass.  Fortunately, we have not found that to be true, although we have been snubbed quite a bit lately.  Probably has to do with the number of boats on the water down here.

  Rose and I wave to pretty much everyone.  If they are in a small boat it we often try to get close enough to say hi as well.  We wave at the other boats whatever they are.

  While it is easy to be preoccupied with navigation or other pressing matters we do notice that we can often predict who will not wave back. (no utility in going into that).

  We always make sure to wave to those on the shore... especially children.  Much like the duty to dockwakers, it just seems to us to be the right thing to do.

[Frank]

not much to do with 'boaters'...but a lot to do with 'life' ..hussle-bussle etc....and yes.. smiling and waving.In Green Turtle-Man Of War-Hope Town...people 'look' at you..then smile and wave..or say 'good morning'. Here in Marsh Harbour with its traffic, hussle and seeming 'rush'...I often go ignored even after smiling and waving. The 2 seem to go hand in hand. "slow and simple= enjoy life and people"....busy = "what people...I'm in a hurry with LOTS on my mind"

[s/v Faith]

I wonder if some of the marinas / facilities that may have been less accommodating to small boats may be more interested in the business now?