Advice to Newbie Passagemakers

[TJim]

Joe, Triton 158 should be a WC Triton.  Tell me please, why in the heck  are you reefing in 15 kts.  Takes
about 20-25 just to get her to hull speed.  You really don't need the first  reef in a WC Triton before 25
kts.  Takes that just to get her moving good.  I usually reef when she starts to loss speed due to being
over powered and that's usually between 25 and 30 knots.  That's running a 110 headsail.  Just curious.
TJim

[newt]

Adrift, help me on this one. I understand the difference between breaking seas and swells, but don't large swell easily become breaking seas if the wind picks up? And is the reverse not true- wind does not cause high swells until it has blown for a while.
Come to think of it- what does cause the conditions which should be red flags for us? I mean besides the usual- hurricanes, tropical depressions, violent thunderstorms...
Of course they would be enhanced/decreased buy the local conditions (tides, gulf stream). I hear people fearing the "Northerner" on this thread. Something I need to worry about for our Scoot?

Sounds like I will listening to the VHF on during the dash....

[TJim]

The worst swells I have ever been in were in the Med in 1954 and didn't have a thing to do with the
weather.  I was riding AKA-55, which was about 650-700 ft long and we were burying the hull up over
the superstructure at the bottom of the swells.  This was the only time I have ever really feared for my
life at sea and was caused by an earthquake right below us.  I have ridden out typhoon Mary and hurricane hazel not to mention several other less famous storms, but none of them compared with the no weather swells in the Med. TJim

[Captain Smollett]

Swells and wind driven waves are different beasts.  They differ in several properties, notably the rate of movement through the water.  Swells are typically longer wavelength waves that are dissipating the energy from some previous impetus (which may likely have been wind), and the wavetrain has stabilized into a relatively regular pattern.  Wind driven waves travel according to some function of wind speed, and tend to be more "chaotic."

Wind driven waves can 'ride' on top of swell.  Any given portion of the sea surface is a very complex waveform containing a fairly broad spectrum of both transverse (wind waves, swell) and longitudinal (tidal) waves.  The multitude of waves present have various periods, amplitudes and shapes.

It makes it FUN.   ;D

None of this is to say that the wind cannot blow the tops off of swell, but that's not really a 'breaking' sea.

[AdriftAtSea]

if the wind and swells are opposed, then it can become very dangerous rather quickly.  But, in general, swells in and of themselves are not a danger and generally do not become breaking waves. 

The case of the wind  opposing a current is always a danger.  If you want to know what i mean, look at the columbia river bar in Oregon.  When the tide and wind oppose the current from the river, it can threaten even the largest ships.  Something similar can happen at the entrance to the Cape Cod Canal with a strong sw wind.

Adrift, help me on this one. I understand the difference between breaking seas and swells, but don't large swell easily become breaking seas if the wind picks up? And is the reverse not true- wind does not cause high swells until it has blown for a while.
Come to think of it- what does cause the conditions which should be red flags for us? I mean besides the usual- hurricanes, tropical depressions, violent thunderstorms...
Of course they would be enhanced/decreased buy the local conditions (tides, gulf stream). I hear people fearing the "Northerner" on this thread. Something I need to worry about for our Scoot?

Sounds like I will listening to the VHF on during the dash....

[Norm]

Just the kind of discussion that makes Sailfar so much fun!

Cubemonkey and I note a couple of things not in this discussion yet.  One is the role of rest.  The other is taking care of one's self and taking care of the other person (people?) you voyage with.  Finally, the role of nutrition which leads to general health.

Given that the people are the weakest thing on a boat...  They need the most care.  People/crew are the only things on board that will naturally make anything more complicated.  Everything else seeks a lower energy level.

Make the boat as simple to operate and fix as possible and then simplify some more.  A recurring Sailfar theme anyway!

Learn to nap.  It takes practice.  You are ready to go offshore when you can complete a 48 hour passage and not be exhausted when you hit the mooring at the other end.

The best thing you can do for your shipmates is to not be calling upon them for help all the time.  The second best is to know when the other guy needs a hand and be there.  A dichotomy?

Food... another popular Sailfar topic.  Simple and nutritious.  I hear about the role of a wok in food operations as being the simplest way to produce the required goodies.  We're pressure cooker folks.  None the less... a gimbaled stove really matters.  (we just did a three day trip without a gimbaled stove... groan.)

Passage making is a "people problem," I think.

Was this thread started by someone about to "head out?"

Best, Norman

[s/v Faith]

Skylark brought up the important issue of hygiene on passages.

  I thought this was a great topic for discussion, so I split it off as it's own topic.  Click here for "Hygiene; Keeping clean while underway...... "

[Joe Pyrat]

Joe, Triton 158 should be a WC Triton.  Tell me please, why in the heck  are you reefing in 15 kts.  Takes
about 20-25 just to get her to hull speed.  You really don't need the first  reef in a WC Triton before 25
kts.  Takes that just to get her moving good.  I usually reef when she starts to loss speed due to being
over powered and that's usually between 25 and 30 knots.  That's running a 110 headsail.  Just curious.
TJim

Hi Jim,

Nope, 158 is an east coast Triton.  Aeromarine did their own thing when numbering their boats so there are number overlaps.  There is a lot of conflicting information regarding Triton hull numbers, production dates and even the numbers produced. 

The EC boats are a bit more responsive to wind then the WC version which had a smaller rig, and in some cases more ballast.  This was, reportedly, Aeormarine's attempt to compensate for higher winds in San Francisco Bay. 

When cruising I like to reef before it becomes absolutely necessary.  My experience has been that she sails along quite nicely at 15 knots of wind and continues to with a reef over 15 Knots.  .

This was, of course, with the original sail configuration.  The new sail (pictured) has a foot about as long as the old sail did when reefed so I may well not reef her as soon, more time on this sail will tell.

[saxon]

Speaking of opposing waves against swell, I agree with AdriftAtSea, it can quickly become a difficult and sometimes dangerous situation. 
Four years ago I was bound from Falmouth UK to Portugal and got caught about 60 miles North West of Cape Finisterre. The swell in that area is generally quite high anyway as the open Atlantic meets the shallower depths of the Bay of Biscay, and usually they run in on the prevailing wind from the South West but on this occasion there was bad weather over mainland Europe and a hard gale came from the North East, out of the Bay.
For some hours until the swell eventually gave in to the wind life was not at all pleasant !! With plenty of searoom I chose to run before the big seas which seemed to be breaking against the swell for a time. Towing 4 warps and carrying just a small storm jib ( 35 foot steel gaff cutter) it was a very strange sensation of sailing up the big oncoming swells while being chased by breaking seas. Now when I sail through  that area I stand off in about 10.30 or 11 degrees West in the deeper water.  Saxon

[rtbates]

1. Get as much experience in varying conditions as possible

And the biggie IMHO

2. Do not sail in unfamiliar waters UNLESS you can navigate WITHOUT a GPS.

[newt]

This subtopic of swells and wind waves coming in from different directions is fascinating. Is this what they refer to as a confused sea? What is more dangerous- the wind driven waves or the large swells, and what should I place the bow to, if I have a choice: The large swells or the wind? It sounds like the running from the wind into the large swells is doable, but heaving to in this situation may be really uncomfortable.
comments?

[Marc]

MAY THE GAMES BEGIN!!!  iOWA IS GONNA ROCK!  GO SHAWN JOHNSON and LOLA JONES

[saxon]

I believe 'confused sea' describes the condition admirably Newt. I think it's fair to say that even in rough weather there is usually a general 'run' of the waves with the wind. Sometimes they will break, even come aboard at times but when conditions are such that at times you have waves and swell running at each other, there is a tendency for them to 'steeple' and topple over each other and all rhythm seems to be lost.

Sailing even in a heavy swell in a well found boat should not be hazardous, uncomfortable if it's on the beam I agree, but  if it's ahead or astern and there are no breaking seas to worry about, well, one minute your horizon is less than a mile and next it's five or six miles.. :D  Regards  Saxon.

[newt]

Thank you for your reply Saxon, I don't have to sail the channel, but I hear that you get a lot of confused seas where the North Sea and the winds from the Atlantic mix. What is your strategy for handling that? (other than not sailing)
This is not just academic for me, as I am looking forward to sailing on your side of the pond in the not too distant future. ;D

[saxon]

Hello Newt and all hands,
I'm not someone with an academic knowledge of the geographic or scientific conditions which really affect this area of the world but I've been at sea for 48 years since I was 16, so you get a layman's (or seaman's ) opinion.  :D

I think primarily it is a matter of scale, for instance, where I am berthed the French coast is about 75 miles away. If I sail Eastwards along our coast to Dover then France lies just 22 miles away. If you look at a sea chart for this area you will see that the British Isles sit in about 120-150 feet of water, obviously there are places around our coasts where it is deeper but in general it is usually less. About 150 to 200 miles to our South-West, beyond the Isles of Scilly the sea bed lies at depths of 6000 or7000 feet, and with the wind and weather coming predominantly from that direction the effect is to squeeze into the 'funnel' effect of the English Channel and the long Atlantic swell gets broken up when it reaches our South-Western coasts sometimes in fearsome storms which have claimed many fine ships over the years.

One great advantage of sailing this area is that a lee or shelter from the weather is usually only a few hours away, sometimes even crossing to the French side if the wind goes South or South-Easterly, or you can run into the great natural harbours of Falmouth, Plymouth or up into Torbay for protection from the South-Westerlies. There is a huge range of weather forecasting facilities as well, British, French and German so a seaman like check on forecasts before sailing will see you safe.

Blue/green seas, one reef in a stiff breeze with short seas and a foredeck wet from spray  is common but anything more threatening and I usually find a lee somewhere and await an improvement in the weather.

One final point...shipping!! Literally hundreds of ships pass through the Dover Straights every 24 hours, a look on the Coast Guard radar in thick foggy weather nearly gave me a heart attack, rather like one of your 'Freeways' in the rush hour!  :D  :D  Regards  Saxon.