The original Scoot discussion...

[Godot]

It was pointed out to me this evening by a quite experienced east coast sailor, that April just might not be THE best time to try this, weather wise. The feeling was that mid May or slightly later would be a much better time frame for getting across the stream.

Food for thought

That's why we are still discussing it, and not posting hard and fast plans.  Lot's of things still to iron out.  Including exactly when we start, where we start, and where we finish.  Hopefully we will have enough input in the next few weeks to lock it down cold.

Some issues we've been banging around ... Best time to start.  Don't forget; we need to leave a decent window open to RETURN as well, ideally with a couple of weeks leeway to explore (it would be a shame to sail all the way to the Bahamas and not poke around for awhile).

Exactly WHERE to start.  I think we've nailed down Beaufort, NC as the starting area (unless someone can come up with a convincing argument for someplace else?  Not really looking for someplace else; but maybe you know something we don't?).  The starting line is the troubling spot.  My initial recommendation was "Off of Beaufort, NC, start line between Fort Mason State Park and Shackleford Banks" which is right at the COLREGS Demarcation line.  A beautiful clear starting point.




I realized shortly afterwards, though, that this is a pretty narrow gap that might have a lot of traffic.  It might not be a good place to start, especially if we get a lot of participants (with almost two years notice, anything is possible).  CapnK then recommended Lookout Bight as a decent staging area (read about it here if interested).  It looks good; but I'm not sure what we would use as a starting line.  I would like to keep the line reasonably short so that we can all pretty much start together.  Local knowledge would be useful.



Where do we FINISH?  A Bahamian destination is the plan.  CapnK suggested Eluethera.  I came up with San Salvador.  I'm not sure either of has has enough information to suggest one over the other.  Eleuthera is a little closer; but also looks a bit more crowded and difficult to me (it is in amongst several islands).  San Salvador is a bit further away but might have an easier approach.  They are both of ports of entry, and I think either one would work.  I'm not sure what to use as a finish line, though.

I would suggest that the boats registered as starters get recorded as starters even though they may not have crossed the start line at the official start time............whether or not at the starting point on set off day / time - perfectly possible for folk to get delayed enroute to the start point / have a last minute problem at the start point delaying them for a day or two.....but IMO yer do not want to exclude folk simply for being late leaving / being prudent .........and arrivals are simply taken on Trust with the accepted norm being posting a photo of self and yacht at destination. If anyone cheats, they are only cheating themselves........

That's more or less the way I feel.  In order to have some structure to the Scoot perhaps we should define a DNS as not starting before the first participant arrives at the finish?  Too heavy handed?  How about as not starting before Half of the participants arrive?  Perhaps that wouldn't allow for the possibility of more than half retiring.  Start within one week?  We should probably define some criteria so we don't hear of folks starting the Scoot three years later.  That would kind of defeat the purpose of a community event.  I don't see any reason we have to put any deadline on finishing, though.  I noticed the Jester 06 Challenge had a participant finish better than a year later (he had to put in for repairs, I believe).  I don't really have a problem with that.

[CapnK]

Hmm, looks like someone has already registered 'thescoot.com'...

Wonder who that could possibly be???  ::)

(I ain't saying nuthin to nobody. ;D )

[CapnK]

RE: departure time - I'm thinking late April/early May because:

• By then, most of the nasty northern weather/cold fronts do not penetrate this far south that often or quite as far. There will be good windows for crossing the Stream w/out having to deal w/NE's.
• At the same time, S and SW winds become more prevalent.
• Starting in June, there is a strong trend towards S's - right on the nose, for the direction we'll be heading.
• And though unlikely in June, that is also the start of the tropical storm season.
• Last, once well offshore, the Bahamas are much less likely to be on a beat.

I'll post some images from the pilotcharts here for y'all to check out.

[CapnK]

...and here is June...

[CapnK]

So to me, May looks best. Perhaps assemble the last week of April, and take the first good Stream-crossing window that comes...

[David_Old_Jersey]

I was a bit geographically challenged on Beaufort NC and the Bahamas, so I did a Google Map  ;Dhttp://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&q=Beaufort,+NC+&ie=UTF8&ll=31.353637,-72.421875&spn=16.808518,27.070313&z=5

For a starting point - what about a local restaurant / bar the night before?.....or a civilised start time in the same, around lunchtime?  ;D For some a Le Mans style start  ;D - for others 100% no pressure to leave the dock until they are ready (cos' they have already crossed the start line by being in position)....and avoids tryingto co-ordinate a fleet (of whatever size) on the water.....milling around wondering WTF is going on especially for folk in unfamiliar waters / unfamiliar with starting a race could be a Challenge in itself!........and when making up yer own rules, be a crying shame if yer can't include some beer  ;D and would reinforce the image of the relaxed nature of the event as less about a race, and more about a Challenge (mainly against yourself).

Late Starters? I like the Jester idea of recording entries of boats and folk on their website - so entry can close when the Scoot date arrives. After a month those who have entered and not managed to cross (arrive at) the start can be requested for their intentions - I would guess that by then most will be happy to confirm they are a DNS (if they have not already advised that themselves) and the odd exception can be dealt with on a case by case basis, and after 3 months / end of the Season automatically being moved into "The Scoot Stragglers Club"  :) and the main event closed.......albeit the event does not 100% "close" until the last actual starter has arrived (1 month or 1 year later)......save for the start of the next event!......or someone having reached Greenland!

Appreciate that don't want folk starting at their own conveniance, but also do not want to exclude folk with some last minute bad luck who may have spent 2 years planning for this event......and the comfort of knowing that their is flexibility may well help folk to decide to commit to entry for something that preparation could take many months / years.

[CapnK]

Good stuff, David!

One of the reasons that Adam and I talked about using the Bight is because it would allow the skippers to get away from the shoreside distractions of "pre-leaving", before heading directly out. A chance to regroup, get rested, make sure all systems are nominal, maybe socialize within the group (again without distraction), and perhaps be able to effectively and efficiently communicate any last-minute info - like weather forecasts, intended routes, comm protocol, whatever...

There could still be, the night before the night before - a "public" get together at a pub or restaurant or something. And some hours at anchor after that might be welcome, before heading right into the Gulfstream - both it and the shipping routes are close inshore there.

All food for thought! :)

[Auspicious]

I'm a bit out of spec to "race" but I think the idea is wonderful. I would be pleased to sail down a bit early and set the finish line. The line could be between my boat (I have a big yellow battle flag that is hard to miss) and a pin (I have a big round fender I could anchor separately). Participants could take their own time if I happen to be off the boat in a beach bar or napping below. <grin>

Great idea!

[newt]

I would also be happy to be of service to the committee. I could collect names of people that start and document their intentions... Perhaps hand out a favorite beverage at the beginning.. ;D
Seriously (and I can be serious) I would be willing to help, and I am already prepping my wife "I'm going honey"

[CapnK]

Well, you could 'race' Dave - but there would have to be a handicap, of course.

Let's see...

2x LOA of most participants basically = 2x LWL (& therefore Hull Speed), so...

You just have to sail halfway there, turn around, go back to the Start, then turn around again and blow by the fleet to the Finish! ;D lol

But seriously, I don't have any any objection to larger boats going. It might be a little demoralizing to watch you drop below the horizon so fast that first day ;), but I can deal with that! :)

Newt - try subliminal messages. Make dinner, and write in the mashed 'taters or pudding, before serving it. Print out the Scoot discussion, and tape it to the wall next to that Mark Twain quote about "twenty years from now...". You know, that sort of thing!

See you at the Start! ;D

[Auspicious]

Thanks Kurt!

I am a real believer in SB/LD even though I have a longer boat -- I'd rather be the finish line.

Maybe I can borrow a good digital camera from someone and capture all finishes?

sail fast, dave

[Godot]

Thanks Kurt!

I am a real believer in SB/LD even though I have a longer boat -- I'd rather be the finish line.

Maybe I can borrow a good digital camera from someone and capture all finishes?

sail fast, dave

That would be cool.  I think we would appreciate it.  Although, the finishes could stretch out over days.

[Pappy Jack]

-Captn K,

Now might be a good time to get some legal advice as to liability. As this would take some shekels (lawyers are not cheap ::)), it might be adviseable to ask for donations. Not much, just $10 or so for the lawyer and for phone calls etc. Just my .02 worth.

Fair winds,

Pappy Jack

[Auspicious]

Maybe I can borrow a good digital camera from someone and capture all finishes?

That would be cool.  I think we would appreciate it.  Although, the finishes could stretch out over days.

Just keep me stocked with Kalik and I should be fine out there.

[Captain Smollett]

If I cannot go, I will DEFINITELY help out.

Lookout Bight is a MOST EXCELLENT idea for staging/start:  Sheltered anchorage in most winds, plenty of room and beautiful surroundings.  Starting in the Bight, you'd not have to deal with going out the actual inlet to get underway.  Only tricky part MIGHT be watching for shipping traffic as you cross the lanes to head south.

Ideas for recording start times:

Cell phone call to someone playing role as "shoreside support" for the start - perhaps a marina in the area or a private citizen?  Whatever time they record is "your time" over the line.

VHF call to marina/'start support boat' again with them recording the time they receive the call.

Cell phone: send a text message to someone, an organizer perhaps.  Text messages are date and time stamped.

For each of these, we'd have to use the honor system for when the call is made.

These could be "options" so as to not require cell phone or VHF (per discretion of each skipper).

[Captain Smollett]

Now might be a good time to get some legal advice as to liability.

I'm sorry, do we have to ask lawyer's opinions to go sailing together now?  Is this to where we've come?

This is nothing more than an 'invitation' to go sailing. If you and I are talking on the dock, and I say, "Hey, let's take our boats out next weekend and head to Point X," should I contact a lawyer to see if I am liable for you if you agree to go sailing on your OWN boat?

If so, I think there are a LOT of afternoon/evening beer can races throughout the country that have no idea about the precarious legal position they are in.

My two cents on contacting lawyers....

That said, it might not be a bad idea to consider not calling it a race, not hinting that it might be a race or anything of that nature.  As CapnK said, the goal is to finish successfully.

When I read "Challenge" in an event like this, I think of it as a shared set of personal challenges, not a challenge of one against another.  Maybe that's just me.

We could say that each records start/end times "for their own purposes;" how individuals compare them at the dock on the other end is up to them.

[AdriftAtSea]

What rating system would we be using, since some of the under 30' boats are far faster than others... :)

[Captain Smollett]

What rating system would we be using, since some of the under 30' boats are far faster than others...

Already answered:

Handicaps: None. 

[Godot]

We are calling it a Scoot, which means, more or less, to go speedily.  We carefully are not calling it a race, which implies rules and regulations and protests, and a change in focus from safely travelling to going fast at all cost.

Still, I suppose the Scoot is a race.  Sort of.  I would expect skippers to do their best, and for there to be some good natured, gentlemanly, competition.  While it is certainly true that some boats are significantly faster than others, I would leave it up to the skippers to kind of judge themselves against the other participants.  A 20' overloaded cruiser/racer mono-hull with a dirty bottom isn't going to compete with a 28' Trimaran rigged to race.  But the skipper of the 20 footer might happily measure himself against a participating 24 footer. 

But then, the competitive aspect is really a side bar.  Primarily this is an individual challenge with skippers (and crews) competing against themselves, doing the best they can to arrive safely, and if they are personally motivated to do so, quickly.

One reason (there are several) we are not setting this up as an all out race is the Scoot would become an organizational headache (establishing entry requirements, measuring, fees, handling protests, all the stuff which I don't find fun).  Also, we don't want to be responsible for skippers choosing to push on past prudence JUST because there is a race on the line.  Or to discourage anyone from participating just because they have a slow boat (handicapped or not).  There ARE still a few real ocean races that accept boats our size (the Single Handed Transpac, for instance) if you are so inclined.

With that said, if we get some sailors who really want to seriously race, I will leave it up to them to figure out what handicap system to use.  If a bunch of scooters want to arrange PHRF scoring as a kind of side bet, I encourage that.  Heck, I might even get a rating for my boat just to participate in the side event.  But please don't look to our little Scoot committee to handle it.

[TJim]

Ain't it amazing how many Alberg owners seem to have that same respect for their Alberg boats no matter what they've owned before.  Just a couple weeks ago ran into a fella that had a 35' Ericson, which I have always thought of as being a great boat tell me "I wish I had my Triton back, things were so much simpler then."  TJim