Bilge Pumps, employment, care and feeding.

[Marc]

GREAT JOB CHARLIE!!!  Really liked your idea of using the 1 1/4"  PVC 90's for your framework.  What I can't understand though is why did'nt you just use the PVC.  I, being an electrician plan on using alot of PVC on my boat.  You have given me an idea though.  My cockpit slopes forward and I was thinkinking of just going out the sides of the boat but I might just run them from fore to aft and dischage at the stern.  I really am taking your advice on building a bridge deck making my cockpit 2' smaller.  Just wating for the weather.  BTW what are you pulling your boat with?  Hopefully at least a 3/4 ton truck.  Marc

[CharlieJ]

Because I don't trust PVC to glue and stay glued, when glassed over. Epoxy/glass lay-ups I trust.

We pulled with a 5.7 L Chevy Silverado. Drove from here to Rochester NY and  picked up the boat, and hauled it home. We don't tow it any more since we don't have a trailer. We just go over and have it hauled when working on the bottom.

Before you do your bridge deck, take a look at James Baldwin's Atom site. He added a bridge deck and uses it to store extra water containers- food for thought. James occasionally posts on here also-

http://www.atomvoyages.com/

[s/v Faith]

.....Before you do your bridge deck, take a look at James Baldwin's Atom site. He added a bridge deck and uses it to store extra water containers- food for thought. James occasionally posts on here also-

http://www.atomvoyages.com/

Might also take a look at this thread; Bridge Deck Project Thread

[Godot]

I've been thinking about Charlie's drains, mostly because my single 3/4" drain just ain't cuttin' it.  I've got a couple of questions...

1: Charlie, you said you didn't trust the fiberglass/PVC bond.  Is this based on experience (you've seen it fail), or inexperience (never tried it)?  I would like to add a couple of big honkin' cockpit drains and was thinking about trying to bond some PVC in; but now you've got me nervous.

2: It looks like you have a solid drain tube, cockpit to hull.  Is there any concern about stress with a solid pipe here?  I would love to do this myself, but I'm afraid the cockpit might move a little independently of the hull, and I feared the resultant stress.

3: I am planning on installing at least one new drain at the front of the cockpit, where water tends to accumulate.  If I where to build a custom drain like you have, is there any reason I shouldn't make a really big one, say three inches or more?  I figure that would really encourage drainage, and hopefully discourage blockage.  I figure there might be a chance of losing keys, tools, and small children down such a hole; but I'm sure I can come up with some sort of grate. 

[AdriftAtSea]

Godot—

The problem I see with having a 3" cockpit drain that far forward is then you need to have a 3" hose and seacock and through-hull if it drains below the waterline, or a 3" hose and through-hull if it drains above.  3" hose is a PITA to work with. I think you'd be better off with two 1.5" or 2" drains instead. :)

Grates on drains aren't such a great idea, unless they're not flush with the deck.  If they're flat and flush to the cockpit side or sole, they can easily be blocked off by leaves.  If they project out from the surface a bit, they're much more difficult to block.  They use the same idea on gutters, to prevent leaves from blocking them.  The best ones are almost a cylinder of wire mesh that sticks up...so that they can act as a standpipe, when the debris blocks the lower sections of it.

[Godot]

That's why I was asking about a solid drain pipe.  To avoid playing with really big hose.  Outside of the hose issue, is there any other reason not to have really big drains?

At the forward end of the cockpit it is only practical to install a new drain on the port side due to the way the space under the cockpit is laid out.  I could install another drain at the aft port side of the cockpit, but that means adding another hole (above the waterline) in the transom.  I like the idea of fewer holes, even if they aren't below the waterline.

As to whether or not to put a grate on, well, we would see how things work out. 

One option I just thought of is to install my dream big honkin drain in the aft part of the cockpit where it only has to travel a foot or so to get to the transom (PVC would be great if it bonds adequately to the fiberglass and I am confident the stresses aren't an issue), and then install a smaller drain up forward to get rid of the water that likes to pool there.  I'm still thinking on it.

[CharlieJ]

1: Charlie, you said you didn't trust the fiberglass/PVC bond.  Is this based on experience (you've seen it fail), or inexperience (never tried it)?  I would like to add a couple of big honkin' cockpit drains and was thinking about trying to bond some PVC in; but now you've got me nervous.

The Gougeon's recommend "flame treating" PVC prior to gluing with epoxy. I didn't particularly like the idea. Besides, the way I did it perfectly fit the space.

2: It looks like you have a solid drain tube, cockpit to hull.  Is there any concern about stress with a solid pipe here?  I would love to do this myself, but I'm afraid the cockpit might move a little independently of the hull, and I feared the resultant stress.

When I got done glassing, those tubes were over 1/4 inch thick, then epoxied and glassed to the cockpit, inside and out, and glassed to the hull, inside and out- They AIN'T moving, plus where they are, right in the corner of the cockpit, also nothing is moving.

The 3 inch drain has been covered already, but I agree- I think it would generate more difficulties than it would solve. A small drain forward and big ones aft sound best to me.

[Capt. Tony]

Charlie, have you ever considered compiling a list of all of the modifications you two have bestowed upon Tehani?  Accompanied, of course, by photographical evidence. (Hey, it's cold and snowing up here still!)
One quick question though.  What do you latch the cockpit anchor locker hatch down with?   It looks as though a gasketed hatch with that prominent of a coaming would do the trick.  I may seriously consider storage of the same nature there.  What, if anything don't you like about it?

[AdriftAtSea]

Godot—

I'd have to agree with charlie, that you really would probably want a big drain in the aft section, and smaller drains forward to deal with the pooling.  That makes your installation simpler and gives you a way to drain the cockpit relatively quickly of the majority of the water if the boat gets pooped. :)

[CharlieJ]

Charlie, have you ever considered compiling a list of all of the modifications you two have bestowed upon Tehani?  Accompanied, of course, by photographical evidence. (Hey, it's cold and snowing up here still!)
One quick question though.  What do you latch the cockpit anchor locker hatch down with?   It looks as though a gasketed hatch with that prominent of a coaming would do the trick.  I may seriously consider storage of the same nature there.  What, if anything don't you like about it?

I've been asked that before, about all the mods. Thought about doing a webpage with them , but simply don't have the time. So I post relevant pics and details as things arise.  When the gallery comes back up, I'll add some there, I promise ;)


But a brief rundown-

gutted and rebuilt the entire fore cabin, with stowage lockers on each side, and drawers and lockers under the Vee-berth .

Added behind settee stowage and shelves on each side.

Built a table for the main cabin. It stores under the foredeck above the Vee berth in cleats built just for that.

Closed off foot of port side settee berth for under galley pot, pan and dish storage.

Cut out ice chest and sink and redid them in a slightly new location, so we could actually surround the ice chest with some foam- 3 1/2 to 4 inches. It'll now keep a 20 lb block of ice for at least 8 to 10 days

Lowered main cabin sole 1 1/2 inches- I now have FULL headroom in the main cabin. While doing that, added 12 new keel bolts because I could not inspect the old ones

Cut main companionway down from 32 inches square ( top opening I mean) to 24 inches and changed sloped drop board cut out to vertical, also 24 inches wide. The as built original companion was big enough to fly a durned helicopter through :D In addition, added a full blown, built in seahood.

Added a pull out chart table/counter top under starboard side of galley flat in some dead space I found.

Completely redid the companionway ladder, which originally had two steps, so now it has three.  Top step is teak one side and Formica the other - hinged and flips over to become extra counter space, right beside the sink.

Added a lift up lid as the second step, which gives access to a garbage can - one of Laura's delights since she can just lift the step and drop stuff into the can. It's bungeed in place- one of the square kitty litter buckets.

Added the under cockpit water tank- a flexible, which doubled our on board capacity to 38 gallons.

Added the under cockpit anchor rode storage over that and raised the center section of the cockpit sole 3 inches over all. Added the new drains in the rear of the cockpit.

Removed and glassed over ALL below water line through hulls. There were SEVEN openings when we started, including 4 that were just pipes glassed i place- no way to close them off all all. Two of those were for deck drains. Those now exit the hull above waterline.

Redid bow to accommodate an anchor roller. That required a re-do of the deck edges, moving the bow chocks aft a foot ( about) , reconfiguring the pulpit ( for the better)

Removed a fore deck cowl vent and glassed over the opening.

Replaced the single 6 inch bow cleat with two 10 inch Herreshoff style. ALL production boats I've ever seen have cleats that are too small.

Changed stern cleats- 5 inchers- to 8 inch Herreshoff type.

Moved upper and lower shroud chainplates to outside of hull, rather than through deck.

Completely ceiled the inside of the hull, using varnished ash, with 1/2 inch of foam insulation behind it

Probably more details that I  have forgotten, but I think those are the major changes.


On the cockpit hatch- it sits over a 2 inch coaming, with a gasket on it- it's pretty heavy also. We USED to insert bolts through the lid and coaming when going offshore, through the smaller hatch in the center. But it's NEVER moved a fraction and it's difficult to get out anyway- has to be lifted JUST right or it won't free up. Which is why the smaller center hatch- an aftermarket one that dogs closed. So we quit using the bolts. The anchor rode locker has a drain that tees into one of the deck drain lines, inboard of the ball valve ( above waterline remember)

What do we NOT like about it? It's hard to get open ;D And once open you have to put the lid somewhere while getting that anchor rode out. But that's really minor and again, that's why the hatch in the center- so we can get to the extra anchor rode more easily. We carry 300 feet of nylon in there in two separate rodes. The shorter ( 100 foot) rode is stowed coiled inside a section of 12 inch diameter PVC pipe sitting directly under the hatch. The 200 foot rode coils around that. The 100 footer is easily accessible by opening the small hatch. 25 feet of chain lives in there also.

We don't have pics of the newly installed hatch yet.

[s/v Faith]

Emerald Tide has a similar system as Faith has.  There is a large 3500gph crash pump, a smaller 2000gph secondary and a third smaller pump as the primary.

The primary pump is actually a diaphragm pump, it has the advantages of being able to run dry in defiantly, to prime quickly and to be able to suck through a hose so the pickup can be attached to a strainer foot that actually vacuums the water down to within 1/4" of the bilge sump.

The prior owner designed and installed the system, another man who did some work on the boat added the third pump and upgraded the wiring to a dedicated buss.  The reason for this post was to share that if someone goes this route, it is imperative they purchase a pump capable of pumping oil.  No matter how clean your bilge, it is possible to get some trace of oil.  The diaphragm pump that was installed was actually a water pump (mechanically identical) which has an important difference.... The diaphragm is designed to resist chlorine, and not oil.

It failed and allowed the pump to run on.... If the boat were not attended it might have drained the battery.

Just some more fodder for the mill.  If anyone needs specific model numbers or info let me know.