Fuels ?!?!

[skylark]

RE: the fuel line hose with bulb, great tip, thanks.

It just so happens I bought one today for another purpose, I will have to go back and get another for siphoning.

I got on board Skylark for the first time in a few months, all is well, except the water in the bilge is ice. Oh well, it won't be long now.

I checked out the 1 gallon pesticide sprayer, which I had originally bought to use as a shower.  I think this will work well.  It does not need high pressure to move the liquid and there is a thumb operated valve that will make it easy to fill the stove and oil lamps.  It will be easy to depressurize.  I will have to test the parts to see if they are affected by kerosene.

[AdriftAtSea]

skylark-

Might be easier and safer to use another fuel line hose and primer bulb setup for the kerosene.  It is just as easy to control, and easier to stow. 

[CharlieJ]

really no need for two- just another thing to stow. one works fine for either fuel- there's so little residue either way you'd never be able to tell it was there.

By the way- I don't use kerosene- we burn 100 % Mineral Spirits

[skylark]

The pressure tank (pesticide sprayer) is for filling the stove and lamps only, not for transferring large amounts of fuel. 

There are some good points made on the risks of using a pressurized tank.  In particular, I am concerned if the valve, tubing and tank material of the pesticide sprayer can handle kerosene.  However there are a number of examples of "pressure tanks" on board which apparently are considered safe enough to carry.  For example, a can of WD40 is essentially pressurized kerosene.  Spray can paints are often pressurized with butane and the paint itself is volatile.  The pesticide sprayer tank would only be pressurized when needed to dispense the kerosene.  So in terms of risk management, I think the pressurized kerosene fuel aspect of it is pretty low risk.

In the stove and lamps I also use mineral spirits rather than kerosene.  I am using the term "kerosene" even though the available grades of kerosene are not of adequate quality to run in a lamp.  I have never tried gas station kerosene in the stove, I assume it would work but maybe clog up the burner ports.  In any case, I use mineral spirits in lamps and stove.

[AdriftAtSea]

Yes, WD40 is basically pressurized kerosene, or close enough that it doesn't matter significantly.  However, the can it is in was designed to handle WD40 under pressure... a bug sprayer generally isn't designed to handle flammable liquids under pressure.  Most insecticides aren't liquid hydrocarbon-based... and the valves, seals and hoses on a standard insecticide sprayer may not be resistant to fuel-type solvents. 

This means that if you store kerosene or mineral spirits in the sprayer, even if you remember to depressurize it, it may end up leaking the contents unexpectedly.  Not exactly an ideal situation.

[Captain Smollett]

Most insecticides aren't liquid hydrocarbon-based... and the valves, seals and hoses on a standard insecticide sprayer may not be resistant to fuel-type solvents. 

Huh? A LOT of insecticides are delivered in hydrocarbon solvents.

[AdriftAtSea]

Not the ones that are generally used in the "plastic insecticide" sprayer type containers...most of these are water-based.

My guess is that he is talking about a container like this

[skylark]

Yes, that is the type. 

[Captain Smollett]

Easy enough to test it, and my gut tells me it will be fine.  Did it come with some instructions that specifically said NOT to use it for hydrocarbon based solutions?

[AdriftAtSea]

CapnSmollett—

While I don't know what brand of garden sprayer Skylark is using... i would point out this website for a common brand of them which says the following:

Terminate unwanted weeds and pests in your garden with Hills' range of quality garden pressure sprayers, available in 5 and 7 litre capacities. The Hills Sprayers are designed to be used with a broad range of water-based pesticides, herbicides and fertilisers. Do not use industrial chemicals, solvents or hydrocarbon-based liquids, as these may damage the sprayer.

I somehow doubt that one company is making a garden sprayer that is significantly different from the others in the same market... and the above quote would seem to contradict your "gut" feeling. 

[Captain Smollett]

Does EVERY little point that is made on this forum have to constantly be argued?  It is getting tiresome.

My gut feeling is worthless; it's a figure of speech used to say "try it, the worse that will happen is it won't work."  That's better, imo, than always telling people "what you think is wrong or won't work."  That's why I said "test it."  And that's why I referenced the instructions for the sprayer.

Geez.

[AdriftAtSea]

I was concerned for Skylark's safety... maybe you're not. 

Using an unapproved container to hold flammable liquids is not exactly the best idea, given that one of the biggest dangers aboard a small sailboat is fire.  I'd rather argue in favor of safety than have him act as a guinea pig. 

The fuel bulb transfer hose is more compact and known to be "safe" for use in transferring fuel.  While a pressurized container might be more convenient, since the container is not designed for holding fuel, it could also be much more dangerous in the long run.

The worst that will happen in this case is that flammable fuel will end up leaking in the boat or spraying into the boat's cabin. 

Besides Capn Smollett-

Most insecticides aren't liquid hydrocarbon-based... and the valves, seals and hoses on a standard insecticide sprayer may not be resistant to fuel-type solvents. 

Huh? A LOT of insecticides are delivered in hydrocarbon solvents.

Might want to practice what you are preaching.

[skylark]

I appreciate the concern and take the warning seriously.  I will still experiment with this but will err on the side of caution.

Another question:  Can PVC pipe be used to make a kerosene tank?  I am trying to install a kerosene heater and I have room for a 6"x6"x48" tank under my hard dodger.  I would like to take a 6" pvc pipe and put an end cap on one end, and a reducer tee with a 2" riser (plus end cap) on the other end.

Can PVC and PVC adhesive hold up to kerosene?

[AdriftAtSea]

Most PVC adhesives are just PVC and solvent IIRC.  PVC, like acrylic, is "melted" to become a single piece rather than really being "glued" from what I recall.   I don't know what PVC's tolerance for kerosene is, but it would depend on the type of PVC, which can range quite a bit... from the flexible stuff they use in inflatable rafts to the hard stuff used in plumbing pipe.  My understanding is that the softer and more flexible the PVC, the more plasticizers that it has mixed into it.

[CharlieJ]

Skylark- can't speak to using the PVC with any pressure, but when I was doing black powder stuff, I soaked my ramrod stock in kerosene. I had a 5 foot long piece of 2 inch PVC with caps on each end, one screw on, the other glued. That held up just fine for about 12 years or so, with no ill effects.

I wouldn't have any concerns with the kerosene reacting with the PVC for sure.

As to pressure, the surge tanks on my Hookah dive gear are made from PVC with end caps glued on. They hold up to the pressure from the compressor with no trouble and they are 25 years old now.

[psyche]

Wal-Mart sells an orderless clean burning Kerosene for lamps that comes in 1/2 gallons. It is in the candle and lamp section. I have used it and it burns very cleanly and has no odor. Dan

[CharlieJ]

What's the cost per 1/2 gallon?

[s/v Faith]

Twice in the last couple weeks I was reminded the the utility of a smallish glass container (at least 1/2 a gallon) for diagnosing fuel problems.

  Pour the suspect fuel into the glass container and allow it to settle.  The water will float to the bottom and you can see if it is a problem.  Alcohol fuels willtake slightly longer to settle, but it works ok for them too.

  in a pinch where you really need the fuel, you can slowly pour the gas back into a jerry jug one container at a time stopping before you pour any water.

  Things like stp gas treatment and 'heet' will make it hard to get the water to settle.  It will take a long time, and may not work on the boat.... but worth carrying at least one glass bottle / jar (preferably clear) onboard for the purpose.

[AdriftAtSea]

A water/fuel separating filter funnel is also a good thing to have aboard any boat. 

[Bill NH]

In previous posts I've read of using mineral spirits as lamp fuel for the brass kerosene lamps...  Are these basically the same thing chemically?  Any other recommendations, especially fuels that avoid the soot from burning kero?